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Hi, uh, uh, welcome to the First City Talk of 2023. Um, we're all very glad to have you here, um, today to [00:00:30] talk about, um, Queer space making in . Um, uh uh, hi. Um, uh, [00:01:00] Just wanted to acknowledge, um, Te Kahui Whaihanga Wellington branch, um, for organising this talk. Uh, also our hosts, City Gallery and, um, also the Wellington City Council Event Fund that supports, um, this kaupapa. Um, so today we have some time, um, and some space to share a conversation. Um, I'll be introducing you to, um, our panellists shortly who will introduce themselves. Um, [00:01:30] and we'll be going through a series of questions and, um, a conversation, and then we'll round out for Pātai at the end. So, aye. Um, so I will hand it over to.. Kia ora, or just let me know if it's too loud. Um, iti taha, uh, iti taha o toku mama iuri au, um, no Aotearoa. Iti taha o tōku [00:02:00] pāpā, um, Hi uri o no whenua moemoea. So, my father is embarrassingly from Australia, but I grew up here. Um, my name is William. I'm a recent graduate of Victoria, where I studied under Jan. Um, and my thesis was on queer space, um, in particular about anti urbanism and kind of finding these little hidden moments of queerness, um, through spatial research. Um, I'm now working at Tenet Brown Architects in the city, um, and I've been there for coming up a [00:02:30] year on Monday, next week, so, whoo! Um, and my boss is up there as well, so, very supportive. Yep, that's a little bit about me. I'll pass over. Kia ora tatou, namaste, I'm Vivian Lindo, I, I'm from, um, the north, northeast of India from a small tribe named the Khasi tribe. Um, I come from a.. beautiful line of feminine energy because we follow the matrimonial society in northeast India. Um, the work I [00:03:00] do, I sit as co chair of London Pride Festival, so I'm a maker of queer spaces, um, within Puneke. I also sit in a, um, select committee in government called the Fakipiri, which is providing advice, um, to government as to how to be more accessible for our rainbow communities in the public service. Um, I'll leave it there, but I'm very excited to be here today, so thank you so much for having us, Matt. Hi, I'm Jan, um, Dr. Jan [00:03:30] Smitheram. And I, I suppose one way to situate myself is I'm an academic at Victoria University of Wellington, where I'm now into my 17th year of teaching there. Um, I've, again, as William's already pointed out, I supervised his thesis on queer space. Um, the other thing I was going to mention is.. I still play Pokemon Go. There we go. Kia ora. Um, one thing I also just want to cover off, um, in the conversation that we're going through today, um, [00:04:00] and some of the content that we're dealing with, um, deals with uh, transphobia and racism. So, just wanting to do a bit of a content warning for that, um, both those who are online and here. It's also kind of safe to move out of the space if it's, um, uncomfortable for you as well, so just wanted to acknowledge that at the outset. Um, I was really excited about, um, pulling together this conversation when I was asked to by, um, the Wellington branch. [00:04:30] And, um, I guess as a starting provocation for this conversation, I reflected on, I guess, someone that I felt was.. a very important queer space maker in Pōneke, and for those who are unfamiliar on the screen, you can see Carmen Rupe, Ngāti Maniapoto, Ngāti Hauā, Ngāti Hikiawai. Recently, we, our whānau were going through some kind of whakapapa information, and I found out that [00:05:00] she actually is a relative. of mine, um, through our, um, dad grew up in, in Dinnyvirk, which was quite close to Toa Mata Nui, um, but, uh, Carmen, I think, was extremely influential, um, in establishing queer spaces, uh, both in Wellington, um, but I, I guess even kind of politically across the Motu, um, even though she was based here in, in Sydney as well. Um, and so the name of this.. Talk. Um, and [00:05:30] behind comes from Carmen's, um, mural t campaign slogan, uh, get in Behind . Um, which as you can imagine at that time was quite, um, a challenging and trans transgressive, um, comment. And, you know, she was kind of mold breaking, um, in, in, in who she was and, and the things that she was able to do. And I was also reflecting on. Um, attributes of I guess queer spaces [00:06:00] that I had inhabited and the, um, this notion of they were not always kind of directly out there or kind of present in the urban realm and there was often like a process of access and um, maneuver to find yourself and locate yourself within that queer space. So, um, that's kind of the starting point for our conversation tonight, um, that our panel is going to respond to. Um, [00:06:30] but I guess with that as a, as a starting point, my first, uh, Part I for our panel is what does queer space making mean for you? I think with queer space. It's There's kind of an almost undefinable characteristic to it Um, I know I've talked a lot to Matt about it and Jan as well through the research but it's so much about a feeling of acceptance in that space and in order to make that Environment is [00:07:00] so Challenging because you're trying to translate a feeling into a physical, but it's a feeling that's so personal to each queer experience. And I think part of the challenge that we face moving forward as queer people is like, you have your own experience, but that might not be cohesive with other queer experiences, so then how do you articulate that in an environment? And so I think what we're finding now with architecture is that queer space making becomes a far more collaborative project. Um, which is great, because you get that sort of breadth of experience and voices [00:07:30] coming out. Um, in moments like this, where we don't have all architects and we don't have all practicing. Um, yeah, it provides that kind of opportunity where those kind of secondary voices are brought forward. Um, so yeah, for me, Queerspace is really about that collaboration. So, yeah, I'll pass it on. Um, for me, Queerspace, um, especially when I'm lecturing, I always mention it as a safe space. So, being a safe space, by that I mean a space where you can actually question [00:08:00] heteronormative ideals, but also a space where you can express your sexuality, your gender, without being qualified, marginalized, or dismissed for your position. Um, yeah, so in terms of teaching, I always rest, and it's infiltrated through all of my lectures now, just, um, Sarah Hadnead's work in terms of actually being able to feel like you can take up space. And the fact that if you take up space.. [00:08:30] that you can feel a part of that space. Thank you. Um, for me, queer spacing would be, personally from becoming co chair at Wellington Pride, is to look who is missing in the room. Um, and as I navigated through Pride Festival, I noticed Many faces like myself, who's brown, and many of my friends who are black and indigenous and people of color are missing from queer spaces. So addressing the whiteness has come through in queer spaces and completely marginalized [00:09:00] us as people within the margins itself. So through the Pride Festival, what we did was, um, with my co chair, um, Talia Opapa Martin, who's one of the very first, um, indigenous people to become co chair for. Uh, the Wellington Pride Festival. We community, we did a community design, um, to implement a document called Te Fariki. Te Fariki is this foundational document that acknowledges the harm that, you know, pride has created to particular marginalized communities. [00:09:30] And start creating.. spaces, particularly within these communities to be allowed to come into pride. Um, so, and this also was voted in and we're going to hold, you know, future pride boards accountable so that they, when they make spaces, um, within the queer diaspora that they think of all of those communities have been forgotten. Um, so that's my passion for queer space making. Um, but I'll pass it on to the next part. I just kind of stepping through a few conversation, I guess [00:10:00] for me and this question, um, Um, I was reflecting on like a space that I had inhabited, which again, um, is, this is a photo of me and I think Vivian is in the background somewhere, but, um, this comes from an event that, um, Vivian organized called Frills, um, and it was a really kind of incredible party, and, and I was reflecting and, um, leading into this conversation like the, the qualities that made it quite, [00:10:30] Kind of extraordinary and um, just the way that people would dress up, the textiles, the color, the like vast permutations that a human could possibly represent themselves within this thing changed the space, um, that was occurring, that I was kind of entering there and as did I as kind of a participant in the, in the fabric of that space, so um, yeah, that's kind of what that meant. Go [00:11:00] For me, um, I think I'd like to circle back to our conversation about, um, safe spaces. And particularly, uh, in the current time, both within New Zealand and more internationally, um, this image, for those who are not familiar, is from the Pulse nightclub shooting. For those who are not aware, it was, um, a kind of terrorist act against, um, [00:11:30] the Latinx community, um, who were attending Pulse nightclub at the time, so queer Latinx, um, community, so, um, Jan, as you were saying before, the kind of, um, the space to be oneself without a mask. Yeah. Kind of restraint or anything like that, um, is one thing in your kind of identity, but it is another thing, again, in your physical safety. So, keen on kind of reflections and [00:12:00] safer space more broadly at this current time. Safe space, again, is quite a challenge because you're dealing with the intersectionality of other issues as well. So, I mean, a safe space for me might not be a safe space for Jen, or.. For Vivian, and I think that's also, yeah, kind of hard to articulate spatially. You're obviously dealing with kind of simple concepts like lighting and lines of safety when it comes to architecture. But, in a lot of our urban space, that isn't [00:12:30] always possible. Um, and there's also, you know, a time and place for it, a less lit area still being a safe space or an environment where someone can feel comfortable. So, yeah, I guess the difficulty is trying to articulate it. And providing a range of those spaces throughout the urban fabric, which kind of catered to a variety, but then you have these kind of main thoroughfares that provide this kind of like spine network where people feel really safe, it's well lit. Um, you can kind of see [00:13:00] that a little bit with Cuba Street, which provides kind of a bit of both, where it's, it's, you know, there's a lot of passive surveillance through occupation of that space, but then you also have these kind of Side streets and back corners that provide a kind of privacy that you don't get on the main part of Cuba Street. So Yeah, safety is kind of there's not necessarily one right answer I don't know if that's helping or more confusing, but maybe that's gonna be the thing tonight Um, safe space would be, you know, I was just reading up today, um, on a study done by Dr. [00:13:30] um, Fraser down at the University of Otago, um, where they, um, interviewed a small section of, um, queer people and queer people in general face a higher amount of homelessness. In, not even, not only in Altea, but across the world, we represent 5 10% of the population, but we statistically, um, face homelessness about 20 40%. So, um, and it's even worse as you go through the intersections of marginalization for, for queer people. So, safer space for [00:14:00] me is having a home, to be honest. Um, because You know, a social housing that is, um, that's welcoming to our communities, and it's lacking at the moment in El Tiro. It needs to be called out, um, to government to address these issues properly. And as we look across, you know, what's happening at the moment in, in Melbourne, if you all have not seen the transphobia that's come through, um, you know, Posy Carker, um, recently, and, um, yeah, you could see the, the systems of authority that were supposed to protect, [00:14:30] um, you know, trans people and people who are here for trans rights were actually standing beside, um, you know, neo Nazis and TERFs. And that's something that we have to address, um, here in Aotearoa as well, as you Navigates away over here. Um, yeah, so safer spaces is like you said, it's a sense of feeling at home, to be honest, but at the moment systems are in place that are not. Allowing us to do that. Um, that's reality for us. [00:15:00] Um, but, um, we keep on fighting to find, to get more safer spaces here. I'm just reflecting since I started the shift in direction of conversation in terms of a safe space. Um, and again, you know, the conversations around safe spaces. space that Manuel had with the development of his thesis. It was critical to, you know, just how the project evolved. But I'm also reflecting on the fact that I approached safe space from a very safe academic way of framing it. Um, if [00:15:30] you didn't notice, I was quoting Ahmed, but there was also Stuart Allen in there as well, who I was quoting. And that's kind of a safety in itself. So, I suppose I'm just reflecting it's quite nice to frame these things without the question of what does it actually feel like. What does it actually mean when you're experiencing that? And that also goes into, I suppose, that notion of camouflaging a little bit as an academic. So normally instead of dealing with these issues head on, you know, you don your black and then kind of blend in while you kind of quote [00:16:00] people. But there's actually something that's actually felt about that. I was reflecting also in our conversation, um, uh, about, and I guess, uh, Uh, academia is one context and, um, as queer spacemakers in practice, um, is another context, but a particular question for you, Will, around what, um, what does it mean to, I guess, practice whilst queer?[00:16:30] My boss is up here, so be careful what I say. No, I'm kidding. Um, I mean, the first thing is to, and this is not always easy coming out of a research environment where.. I think you, I mean, most of us have experienced a pretty unilateral kind of opinion, especially around queerness that I think it's important to find a place to work where you feel accepted. I think that's the main priority. That's like absolute 101. Um, and I know that's not always, you know, it's a privilege to be able to say that I've been lucky enough to find that [00:17:00] space, but I think it's also one of those things that even in those spaces, you're going to get conversations come up, which are really. Um, slightly more challenging, let's say, than an academic environment, but those conversations, to be able to be open minded about educating people, um, certainly plays a role in that as a graduate. And it's, I mean, I think in particular with my research and thesis, it kind of, it's, yeah, you kind of put your queer hat on around the lunch table sometimes, but I think that's also really helpful because people are really interested in understanding that [00:17:30] if they're not from a queer background. And I think. There's also an honor, I think, or a privilege to be able to help them on their journey in understanding queerness. Um, there's moments of challenge through that. Um, and you don't want to talk on behalf of everyone in the industry and everyone in the queer community. Especially, I mean, you talk about architecture and we talk about diversity and it still has a way to go. So I think there are elements of not wanting to speak for other people. But, yeah, I think it's about playing [00:18:00] a small part of.. Um, yeah, part of everyone's journey in the office and, and just being there if, if someone needs to talk about it, I think it's, yeah, just being open minded. Um, I'll re, re put that question back to you, Jen, but I, there were a few things from our discussion that I just want to frame it with. Um, first, so it might be, I might do a vigil, so tell me a bit if I'm wrong, but um, there was a bell hooks quote that you shared with us, um, [00:18:30] queer not being about who you are having sex with, that can be a dimension of it, but queer as being about the self that is at odds with everything around it and has to invent and create and find a place to speak and to thrive and to live. So I was interested in your observations, and I know we've had a few conversations so far about the academic space and working in the academic space, but in a similar way to, um, well, kind of your reflections on that. I suppose in terms of working in an academic [00:19:00] space, first of all, um, I suppose I wanted the bell hooks quote there. Because one of the first exhibitions in architecture at Storefront Art in New York. I haven't quite got the name quite right there. Um, but it was actually not just, you know, it had Beatrice Colomina, Mark Wigley. Um, so that's a married couple, um, and it also had Eva Koska Sedgwick there. So it wasn't just, um, about, again, who you were having [00:19:30] sex with, but it was actually taking care to explore what queer space was. Um, in terms of being an academic, um, I'm always trying to work towards creating a safe space for students wanting to explore, you know, queer space in their thesis. But my approach is normally an intersectional approach. So an intersectional approach means that I'm interested in the intersections between gender, race, class, and sexuality and actually how [00:20:00] these are interrelated in terms of oppression or domination and actually also questions around privilege as well. And you know in terms of offering that as a Just kind of little opening places and actually the best placed in terms of an opening conversation Is I actually had my courses reviewed by the deputy Vice Chancellor Mataranga Maori and just in terms of just getting [00:20:30] words that to use in your course That starts to open out spaces for people to engage with Mataranga Maori in my theory course Or in terms of queer space. So it's kind of embedded in there, kind of an intersectional perspective, but more in terms of creating an opening. So for me, that's what education is, is creating this opening that people feel that it's, they can, it's a relatable space, you [00:21:00] know, but it's still a space of questioning and self reflection. Um. Another kind of observation that I want to make, um, following, following the Pulse example is, um, this is, and Vivian you might be able to speak more detailed to this, but this was a, um, I think a queer youth centre in Tauranga, yeah, that was, um, burnt down I think last year, um, [00:21:30] and I know If we look at the kind of examples in the US right now, where we have, um, kind of drag story time events being, being protested by kind of armed, um, people, uh, in the US context, I, I think it's really important to acknowledge that we are not so far away from that, um, and I think even if you were reflecting on New Zealand context, that kind of violence is not, um, foreign to these shores, shores either, so, [00:22:00] um, um, I just wondered while, while we're here and we'll move into a kind of a more theory space, but these are kind of very practical and real things for our community, um, and the safety of our communities and um, the constant work of, of maintaining them as safe spaces. But just wondering if from the work that you're doing, Vivian, if there's anything more that you'd like to speak in that space? Um, thanks for bringing up, um, um, you know, what happened in Auckland and [00:22:30] also what happened in Tauranga and recently, you know, last year that happened in Greymouth, I think, um, to Sam's church, um, who, um, they lovely, they turned it into a pink church in the West Coast, which is amazing. But, um, you know, what we tend to do in Aotearoa is we tend to think from what the conversations I've had that we, uh. Very different from, you know, ideologies, but it's filtering through America, but as the more conversations I have had here, especially at decision making tables, it [00:23:00] really comes through though. It's not that different at all. It just takes one person who's able to lead and believe in alt right wing ideology and lead and make these people come out. They would work. Um, And it also makes me reflect on this conversation, which I had, um, with a friend in Bangladesh, actually. Um, there was this queer activist, um, that started a, a safe queer space for his gay friends, um, and then got hunted down by, You know, [00:23:30] like that terrorist groups there, um, and unfortunately, one of them passed away, but he was able to give a call to his brother in the UK who flew him to Sri Lanka to escape. So, um. It, you know, it, it was quite an eye opening, um, story, really, around queer spaces, because it was supposed to be a safe haven, and there was no systems of protection in place that they got, um, and this is quite prevalent throughout the world, right, and it's even more so [00:24:00] now, um, as more alt right wing organizations come into board. Um, yeah, I'll just, that's just my thoughts on that. I think just to reply to that as well, we had a little bit of a talk last week about The idea of what we felt was the most safe space we've been in and I think you kind of immediately think oh It must be like a gay bar, but in actuality those Spaces aren't necessarily our safest in some way they provide kind of like a safe framework to be in but by organizing yourself in such a way and [00:24:30] the public realm you also As a result of that kind of protest of occupation, you end up putting a target on yourself. So I feel like that's a classic example of, okay, we're trying to come together in this environment and build this network kind of grassroots style, but then that immediately gets targeted. Um, so yeah, just building on what you've said about how we're not actually that far away from that line. Um, and that I think of. For me at least, I can talk that like some of the places where I felt safest is [00:25:00] actually when you kind of don't express queerness in such a way, um, with that kind of assimilation into heteronormative spaces where actually you kind of end up feeling safe. So, I don't know. It's kind of a challenging dynamic. We also thought it would be fun to have some good books and reading and theory. Um, to come out of this. So there's a, um, a series of, um, [00:25:30] books that we're going to talk to briefly and then go into another area. But, um, Jose Esteban Reynos is Cruising Utopia, um, to talk about, I guess, the, um, the stability of a queerness or, um, this ambition or this, um, this hope for. How queer people might live, um, he always discusses that as like a horizon of, a horizon that you never arrive at, [00:26:00] that, that is always shifting and evolving and changing and, um, one of the reflections that I have from that I guess is like, I don't know, the, the constant work that is required to advance that and to, um, ensure that our queer spaces evolve, accommodate, um, um, To kind of include, include everyone, um, under the umbrella that, that should be included within those spaces. I think I started [00:26:30] doing the list, didn't I? Oh, because I started going, oh, this book came out first, and then I went, no, it's the wrong one. Like, this came out before Betsky's book. Um, but I suppose I wanted to start there because it was, when I was a student, it was always on my desk. I just found it really such an exciting book because it was challenging that boundary between, especially private and public space, in a way that no other book at the time. So this came out in 1996. So, that kind of dates when I was at school, [00:27:00] but, yeah, it was brand new then, it's a bit weathered now, probably because of me. Betsky, 1997. So, I suppose, I mean, this was, it's been an important book for, um, everybody that I've supervised in different ways, or telling them to stop looking at it. I can see you pal, I'm sorry. Um, you know, because it was framing Queer Space in a very interiority, interior way, and it was also at a time when You know, queer space [00:27:30] was defined in terms of a white male, so it's been critiqued a lot since then, which was also in your thesis. It's working? Oh yeah. I think also from what you talked about a lot is that, and what we mentioned earlier was that with queer space by Betsky is that it's almost entirely oriented around the act of sex and our understanding of queerness has expanded so far beyond that now that even though this was kind of pioneering at the time it's It's aged a bit like blue cheese. Yep. [00:28:00] Yeah. Sorry for those of you that like Gorgonzola. Another thing, in the preparatory conversations that we've had, um, we kind of quickly abandoned wanting to arrive anywhere, um, cause it seemed that everything sort of meandered and everything was related to everything. But, um, uh, a strong element that came out of that conversation was this notion of a, of a queer materiality and I guess the divergences and [00:28:30] changes of what that could be, um, in different contexts for, um, for different people, but, um, we were reflecting on, um, uh, I guess, A lot of materials that we see within a kind of queer nightlife space have attributes of, um, vibrant visual effects, reflectiveness, um, They're very impactful, but they're also, [00:29:00] um, very light, fragile, temporal, um, Maybe don't have a particularly long shelf life, and I wondered in some ways that that was kind of a Both beautiful and kind of, um, sad reflection of queer, queer people as well, and in the same way that they are vibrant and, and, and beautiful, but at the same time have all of these kind of challenges and fragilities, not, not everyone, of course, but, um, yeah, so I [00:29:30] guess, cause I know that there are some diverse perspectives within this group. Um, if I was to kind of ask you what a queer materiality is, what, what do you think of? I think. And this is something that we've talked about. It's like the difference between fashion and architecture is quite small. And so when you talk about things like glitter or kind of tints, like tinsel y sort of textures, that also comes through a lot in fashion, so. There's almost like a softness to queer [00:30:00] materiality or there's a human scale because it's so personable in the way that it's created. So I don't know, can I say linen or a sort of fabric that seems transparent but still covers? I think that's where my mind goes is like this idea of again, of hiding or revealing yourself through the material. Um, so yeah, kind of like a semi transparent sort of a linen colorful though. Um, queer materiality for me is, um, it's not really physical. I [00:30:30] think it's more like shared kai with all my queer friends. Um, we tend to do that quite a bit. And, um, And just share experiences and share stories, um, and design our food to reflect a particular cuisine, you know, and it's just that deeper level of belonging, um, and that's how it materializes for me personally, um, as it allows me to navigate, um, conversations when it comes to policy making or legislation or any of [00:31:00] that, um, because those spaces, issues. materializes that way for me, um, and I love all the glam of, you know, that Frills has created as well because that has created a lot of stories, um, that has definitely, um, aligned me about what I'm doing with the Pride Festival. Well, I was the one. In our earlier discussions, it always shifted away that the tinsel's been packed away now. Um, so there's some sort of ambivalence to materiality. [00:31:30] So, I flipped through my Queer Space book, which is sitting on the other side of the couch, which I had to bring for a prop for whatever reason. So I started flicking through that through the weekend. And, trying to go.. You know, what happens in this kind of ambivalent space. So, my example, which you can see is, um, noted there, again, I've gone for an example, is looking at a mixed design and Joel Saunders Architects in terms of, again, creating a safe space. So, just the redesigns of public toilets at an [00:32:00] airport, um, that is actually open to everyone. So, instead of, um, going with gender binaries in terms of designing the bathrooms, they just went with elimination, washing, and grooming. And so, for me, I'm going with that as materiality, rather going on about fading tinsel. There are just a few, a few ones that I wanted to touch on here. Um, this is the cover from Sophie's The Oil of Every [00:32:30] Pearl's Uninsides. I may have got that wrong. Um, who was an electronic musician who I think passed away in, in 2019. Um, but there, there's an, an interview, um, from her, uh, where she was talking about kind of, um, electronic music. And I remember vividly that she talked about what would the sound of a piano that was as tall as a mountain. Sounds like. And, um, These [00:33:00] are a number of, I think, slides or most of them are slides of these, um, that were kind of various EP covers for all of these songs. And again, these slides don't exist. They're, um, entirely kind of synthetic. And I also think of the work of, um, Aka, who's also a trans musician kind of existing within the same space that is, Um, Kind of epic, but isn't real, but like, is real, [00:33:30] because it is, that, that sort of thing. So, those were the, these are the kind of ones that I return to, and, um, thinking about, um, what a queer materiality is or could be. Um, cool. So, moving on. Uh, we're, we, of course, Um, or practice in different ways within the space and relate to queer space in different [00:34:00] ways. I'm really interested in kind of, um, where, where you're located in the work that you do. How your queerness influences the way that you work or the way that you operate. Hi. Hi. Um, I'm still figuring this out. I think I'm only a year in practice and I think it's a slow burn, but. Um, Andrew and I, in a kind of wider group, um, a lot are here tonight, um, have been working on a bit of a project, and maybe Andrew [00:34:30] can say a few words in Q& A, possibly, um, about this, but, um, yeah, working on how do we fulfill or create a guideline document for, um, NZIA to pass out to firms around public bathrooms and how they can be more equitable, um, and hopefully at one point they might get into legislation. Um, so we'll see how far we can push it, but, um, yeah, I think there's a, an element of, of coming together as multiple queer people practicing, um, that can be [00:35:00] really advantageous. Again, it's just about creating a unified kind of group of people, but with different opinions and different voices. Um, I know from that conversation, there was a difficulty around, okay, certain religions don't. I don't actually want totally gender neutral bathrooms, and so how do you facilitate occupation that has those intersections of, you know, allowing the broadest range of possible occupation, especially in public space is critical, um, [00:35:30] I don't know, it's kind of a roundabout way, my identity, yeah, um, yeah, I think it's about advocacy, but it's also about implementation, and I think there's a opportunity for both in practice, and I think The day to day is very much about like, Oh, I mean, one of my bosses came up to me and we're doing a retrofit of a, of a tall building in the city and was asking, Oh, how do I, how do I make this a better bathroom? Because the sheer walls are so tight and it's an old building and it was a gender split bathroom orientation when it was first built. How do I do it [00:36:00] if there's multiple, um, businesses on the same floor? So really difficult questions that don't necessarily need to get answered. But, I don't know, I'm kind of rambling now, but day to day it's more challenging because if you have to put it pen to paper it's much more complex than just talking about it, or having a conversation around a table, especially for things like retrofits, I think that's almost ten times harder than a new build, with a new build there's kind of no excuse for, yeah, for doing gender bathrooms, but, um, [00:36:30] retrofit is kind of the challenge I think. Yeah, I don't know, ramble off. How does my identity, um, my identity influences all my work, to be honest, um, a being brown, that really influences my work, um, then being queer and being a migrant. So everything I do and every advice I provide, all those three intersections would be combined to provide advice. Um, so they're very blessed to have me because I come from these marginalizations and can speak, I believe on, on, [00:37:00] um, on my own behalf. Um, and the experiences I've experienced here in Aotearoa. Um, yeah, the bathroom one, it's so interesting because we're talking about that at work at the moment. Um, And they're like, we do have gender neutral bathrooms. I was like, well, it's just one floor and it's also an accessible bathroom and we've got 10 floors. So, as you're expecting people in, with accessibility issues and people who are not in the, who are non binary and not gender conforming to go to one bathroom in the building. Um, [00:37:30] so it's those difficult conversations of, um, they're trying to be inclusive, but not all the way. And it's so difficult at, um, and You know, it really hurts me all the time because you're trying to have these conversations with the guise of diversity and inclusion, but it comes to at the detriment of, it only pushes you to a certain path. Um, yeah, but we, but the bathroom one I would love to talk some more, [00:38:00] um, because it is a conversation that keeps coming up at work as well. Um, yeah, but coming back to the identities, I think. Yeah, all those, any marginalization group that I belong in, I will always speak because it always, um, affects my work. I won't say too much because I think I've already addressed this with the question around the influence of my work. Um, yeah, I mean, yeah, I approach my work through an intersectional approach [00:38:30] to my research and increasingly my teaching. Cool. So we have the, we have the quite fun, fun one to, to round up the back end of our, of our conversation. Um, and we have some examples that follow this that we're going to speak to as well. But, um, we're here in Pōneke in, in the city, um, that we love inhabiting. And I, a question that I have for you all is if I were to kind of [00:39:00] challenge you to, you know, you've got unlimited budget. You can do whatever you want, um, anything you like, anything at all. Um, extending on our conversation, um, if you could make, you know, your ideal queer space in this city, can you tell us about it? What would it be like to be there? Um, yeah, this is kind of a conversation that actually all four of us have had a lot about, and it's kind of, I don't know, dreaming, which is great. Um, we talked about, [00:39:30] well for me in particular, I would look at it kind of.. multi user, um, urban intervention, something that includes that sort of housing we talked about, that being a comfort space. And I think that leads on to a lot of Jan's research as well around domestic versus public, public and private, and domestic spaces, I mean, historically have been like a reinforcer of heteronormative relationships. I think housing, and queer housing in particular, is always going to kind of come up against that in some way, which I think is a really exciting opportunity. Um, there's an example, I [00:40:00] think, maybe a slide or two. Um, yeah, uh, next one. Yeah, this one here. So this is the LGBTQ plus center in Victoria, Australia. And, yeah, really interesting. So I think it also includes some sort of housing, um, scheme. But it's very much a community's hub. Um, and kind of speaking on materiality or that temporalness of, um, Yeah, the kind of temporalness of queer materiality. They've kind of gone for the opposite. Like they've done this monolithic concrete. Really, I mean [00:40:30] that's fucking permanent, there's no other way for it. Um, so it's really, you kind of see this as like a future direction of like, Okay, if queer space isn't just about occupation, but if you try and articulate it architecturally, What if you use the material that won't budge, like, I mean that's kind of a fortress, but I think that's kind of, It's camp in a way, because it's like, We're not moving and we're not leaving, and this is an example, and It's in your face, it's, you can't really miss it, so I think that's maybe partly a dream of [00:41:00] like, queer spaces. It's just having that sense of permanence, yeah. It's like, we're here and it's actually not gonna change. And, yeah. Specialize it. Um, I suppose last time when we did discuss this, the kind of joke was with William that like, why didn't you do that for your thesis if this was your dream? But anyway, that was kind of where I ended up starting the conversation. Um, but again, I'll shift into my academic comfort zone, which is saying that rather than a space, just again that [00:41:30] notion that Queer Space for me is interesting because it's a messy term. And it's kind of within that messiness that you can always ask questions, and sometimes those.. They can be quite hard questions. So, you know, for me, that's kind of, this open endedness of always asking these questions. That's where I'm at, rather than a physical example. I think I would really like something campy. Yeah, um, Yeah, um, I would go with your answer. [00:42:00] Campy, permanent, um, allowing for different groups to exist. You know, and that. Um, and bang on the centre, Wellington. Um, so you can't miss it at all. It'll be absolutely fantastic to have that and just, yeah, where conversations can happen, really, for us to be as gay as possible. Um, could you tell us a bit more about this colourful pyramid? Um, so this is a.. [00:42:30] Yeah, so, actually, Riley will know who this is as well, um, this is Adam Nathaniel Furman's work, um, I was lucky enough to be part of the dissent committee way back in undergrad a few years ago, um, and I was really fortunate to meet Adam through that process, they're a queer designer and, um, yeah, based in London, and their work is really camp, really colourful, um, they've also kind of dealt with the intersection of permanence, a lot of their work is installation based, um, or kind of object based, [00:43:00] But this piece is one of their work. It kind of builds on post modernism. It's like post post modernist. Um, which I'm sure is like, a TERF's like hellhole. But, yeah, it's really cool. And I actually went and saw him when I was in London and his office is as colourful as this and as crazy as this and he has this gorgeous dog. And, yeah, fantastic. So I recommend following him because he's political and architectural and colourful and all those fun things.[00:43:30] We're going to do a bit of rinsing and repeating because we're actually very lucky to have a designer of Quest Faces here tonight, which is you. So, um, we have some of your thesis work and just wondered if you could tell us a bit more about it. So this is, yeah, okay, a couple of years ago now. So this was an installation very early on. This was the testing of materiality. And again, uh, It's kind of based on the understanding of [00:44:00] perception between two people. So how the materiality can blur or distort your understanding of the other person physically. And so if you remove that physical barrier, um, of kind of the visual judgment that you get when you meet someone initially, if that's then disrupted by the material, then how do you perceive that person if it's not through visual means first? This is a photo I took over in, um, Breaker Bay. And yeah, I think this is an interesting topic. Kind of, or like, point to talk about the occupation of [00:44:30] architecture versus the building of architecture, or in particular queer space. And that the notion of being queer, or having queer space is kind of, or like queer space in itself of, and I think Jan's touched on this, is kind of, Challenging because queerness comes through occupation. It's so much about the person of, of where they are, how they behave, how they feel comfortable. So, we're not really designing queer space so much as space where queerness thrives. Um, and I thought this was a really good opportunity to show that because [00:45:00] it's obviously kind of subversive, they've tagged it, it's not really allowed there, but it's not moving again, it's on concrete, so. I don't know, maybe, oh, okay. Oh, this was fun. I liked this one the most. Um, this was the domestic scale. This was looking at how four non related people could cohabit a house in Martinborough. Um, so I used an existing building that got moved, um, from Kelbyn. It was kind of an old, um, an old villa. And then kind of disrupted it in different ways. You can see the bathroom is actually [00:45:30] inside the circulation zone of this space, so. Your public private boundaries with the people that you live with is really disrupted, um, and then the flooring.. As the circulation leads down to the kitchen, so you kind of are constantly hearing and seeing these kind of moments of, of movement through the people you're living with. So how do we challenge our, because I don't know with houses, like bedrooms are so closed off. It's like a door and four walls. So this house was really about challenging how we, how we cohabit and especially in a non traditional kind of family [00:46:00] unit. And this was Cuba street. This is kind of a quick draft render. Oh, so all of these characters. It started off as people that I was studying with, um, as like inspiration, so, yeah, shout out to them. Um, but this is looking at, again, kind of the temporalness of occupation, but then also the permanence of queer space in an urban fabric. So you have things like, yeah, like the kind of sculptural artwork, which is really permanent, but then you have this kind of light material hanging above, so, [00:46:30] yeah, showing the kind of contrast or variation in what queer space can be represented as. This is my outside scope in the area. Cool. Um, so we have our final pātai for the night, and I guess for our audience who will go out and make queer space. But, um, how can our spaces, Peter Manaaki, our queer whānau, what are the things that we can do? Speaking of menakee, my mom has been [00:47:00] calling me from India, so she calls and she gives me a missed call for 20 missed calls before I pick up. I'm like, Mom, I'm going to call you soon. But, um, how can space better menakee a queer fan? I think, um, One is to keep on having conversations as to what safety means for each group. Um, and not be afraid to enter challenging conversations if you don't come from that particular intersection. Um, because at the end of the conversation, it does create liberation. Um, for me personally and for a lot of people that [00:47:30] I've had conversations with. So I'll go with that. Well, I think I've kind of said the same sort of thing, and I keep on coming back to that notion of safe space, so just, you know, reiterating those points. Um, and also to reiterate, but, and just, I think building on that, it's like giving people the voice as well, and it's not just about being listened to, but it's about being heard. And I think those challenging conversations are also the ones where the most amount of growth happens. So I think it's [00:48:00] important and not that we have to put ourselves in these difficult positions, but sometimes when you're trying to educate or converse with people that those kind of grittiness elements are actually really important. And if obviously if we don't feel up to it, then that's totally fine, but I think that's where real growth comes Yeah, just having that having that hard core Cool so that brings us to [00:48:30] The end of the conversation that that we've had we started of course with with Carmen and Um, those who might be familiar, if you walk up Cuba Street, um, Carmen is immortalized within the traffic crossing sign here, you know, um, bright, temporal, but deeply permanent, um, as well. So, thought that was a nice, um, image to end on. But, um, we can now open up the floor to questions. We've got a couple [00:49:00] of minutes, but.. Kia ora guys. Thank you for your whakaaro tonight. Um, I just wanna ask, like, obviously as designers it's really important that we honour Te Tiriti o Waitangi. And so, how can we decolonise queer spaces? Um, I can answer from a private perspective. That's okay. Um, I early mentioned that, um, the first conversation when I [00:49:30] came on board as co chair along with Talia, we definitely acknowledged that we need to honor disability. Because Pride hasn't done that quite well. Um, the one thing we did was, um, like I said before, we co designed this document called Te Whāraki with an organisation, Kōpapa Māori organisation, called Tātou Tātou. And we had indigenous people and, um, um, sorry, Tangata Whenua, Pasifika, uh, other ethnic minorities as well, to [00:50:00] acknowledge what harm has been done. By pride in Wellington in particular and then set Expectations and practice in place to address those issues in order for our rangatahi to Not face those challenges again and on Saturday. We had the first BIPOC Wananga at Pride, um, to continually listen to Tangata Whenua, to, um, other Tau Iwi, um, and [00:50:30] design, and within that, and design, um, Te Whareki again, and holding accountable future, um, Pride boards, that they need to be Te Tiriti centric, and if they're not, then they're The community can hold them accountable by coming to AGMs and calling them out. And because it is important, because people tend to forget. And we don't want to be, well personally I do not want to be, when Talia and I step down and someone else comes up. And they're like, oh okay, that's just a tech box conversation. And that will never happen again. [00:51:00] Um, so that's why we needed to vote that in. Um, so that's what we're doing in the Pride Festival. Um, in making queer spaces that are designed. Based on Mataranga Maori, really. Yeah. Um, I have a response to that question from, I guess, like a, um, Takatapui Maori architectural perspective is, of course, in pre colonial times, um, our [00:51:30] Takatapui were tohanga. They were knowledge holders within, um, So I think what I would really like to see and it would be, I think there's a really long timeframe for this, but, um, uh, that our rangatahi are supported to evolve into that and that they can design themselves and that they have their mana motohaki, you know, that may be like takatapui marae, that may be those sorts of things. So, I [00:52:00] think it's a very long way off, but I think, um, the best thing to enable that is, uh, uplifting our rangatahi Māori designers, because they are both brilliant and very, very vulnerable, um, and architecture is not a safe space for them. So, um, yeah, how can you nourish that would be my response. Thanks guys, been great. Just sort of reflecting on Jan's comment about [00:52:30] that example from an airport with, you know, de gendering, um, public toilets, and that sort of lack of labelling queer spaces being just open and then accessible to everybody, um, that's obviously, you know, quite an ideal solution to lots of environments, but doesn't necessarily, um, take the sort of opportunities to celebrate queerness in any way.[00:53:00] So, just interested in any reflections on, on that. And in a similar way, just reading something, um, online recently about a bar in Dunedin, Inch Bar, that for some reason iSight labeled as a queer bar, with no knowledge of theirs. And so they then actively campaigned to have that removed, just because their customers were being.. Targeted, which is obviously a bit of a sad result of something. [00:53:30] Um, I think I'll just pause on the bathroom thing, because there has been work done in this space, so I might just throw it over to the audience and Andrew, because I know Will was working on this as well, but could you speak to a bit of the work that your group has been doing? Just a little plug for the group that, um, well, and a number of us, uh, involved in, um, I guess we, we are working on, um, a bit of a, a bit of a guide to help sort of the why question [00:54:00] as to why we need gender neutral bathrooms. Um, and I suppose there's a few different aspects that we're We're going down or different sort of routes that people can sort of take hold of The content like some of them are really functional and money focused because we know that developers or whoever Some some of those people might just be looking for the money and then others are like, oh [00:54:30] we've got to do this for the ethical, but I guess I'm sure everyone in this room is knows that It's what we should be doing, but it's about getting those other people on board. So, um, we are working on that, slowly, um, but, um, if, if anyone is interested in getting involved, do, do come up to me afterwards, um, yeah, um, I grew up in Dunedin, so [00:55:00] I have some firm words for InSpar, um, yeah, I think it's.. It's interesting when you get a place like Dunedin, because it's, there's a huge young population with the students, so there's obviously a certain area of the city that's really, you know, far forward thinking, but there's still a long way to go in these smaller towns, like we are a little bit in an isolated bubble here in Wellington, and I think we tend to be quite in silo a little bit, and how do we break out of that is still, I mean, I don't really know, I still kind of struggle [00:55:30] going home and being there, but yeah, it's, yeah. It's difficult because I think we're in such a progressive bubble here, and we're making great progress, but there's a, there's an equally large bubble, unfortunately, that still exists, um, that still has a long way to go, and places like Dunedin, and, I mean, everywhere has them, but, yeah, it's just, it's kind of, we're only seeing like a surface level symptom of that, but there's a lot more conversation going on behind closed doors, [00:56:00] um, Yeah, that leads to that decision making, but I mean, for things like bars, we, we make a stance with our money, we make a stance by where we go, so, yeah, there's opportunity there to also make your voice heard if it can't be through talking to them, it's also who you support, so. Um, uh, just a few other shoutouts that I'd like to make, if you're interested in understanding more about The queer urban history of Wellington. Um, uh, get Roger and Gareth who are here tonight. I'm [00:56:30] recording, uh, run tours through walk tours. New Zealand. So if you want to learn a little bit more about Wellington's queer history, there is a lot of it. Um, highly recommend that. But, um, thank you for your time tonight and for coming and listening to this kōrero. Um, if you wouldn't mind putting your hands together for our wonderful panel and their whakaaro.[00:57:00] Um, so, uh, thanks everyone. I'll do a karakia to lead us out, but, um, There, I believe, are refreshments in, um, the lobbies, so please stay, enjoy the, enjoy the kororo, and we're very grateful to have you. Gratitude. Happy to have you all here. Ka whakaria te tapu, ke wai tia ae te ara,[00:57:30] ki a turuki whakataha ae, ki a turuki whakataha ae. Haumi e, hui e, ta ariki e.
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