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I'm a, um, a composer. And I've I live right now between Wellington and Dunedin, mostly Dunedin this year. Um, but, um, but I'm I consider myself basically a Wellington, and I've been here since, uh, just before high school. And before that, I grew up in in Hamilton and then moved down when I was about 10 or 11. And, um yeah, then went to to high school in Wellington, Did undergraduate [00:00:30] and, um, a little bit of postgraduate, um, at Victoria University in Wellington. And then, uh, I lived overseas. I lived in the states, uh, upstate New York at a little town called Ithaca. Um, where I also did some study in in New York City after that before coming back to New Zealand. About what, five or six years ago? Now. And the reason you are commuting between Wellington and Dunedin is because [00:01:00] you are the current Mozart fellow. That's right. Yeah, Mozart Fellowship is the, um, the composition or the music fellowship that's run by the University of Otago. So there's a, um, a writer one called the Fellowship. There's an visual arts one called the Francis Hodgkins Fellowship and a couple of other um different ones that are run out of, um, different departments. But, uh, the music one is the Mozart Fellowship. So how did you get into composing? I played [00:01:30] a piano when I was a kid. Um, quite poorly. And I was a really terrible piano student, because I, um I didn't really like practising that much. And and I was, um I was always quite good at sight reading. So I I would sight read my lessons. It was terrible. I had never really practised anything. I was dreadful. But, um, I at high school, I got into composition, had a really good sort of, um, composition, itinerant [00:02:00] teacher named Gary Wilby who used to come into our high school. And he introduced me to some things that I really fell in love with things like music by people like Stockhausen, um, and and other contemporary composers. And, um and I Really I found that fascinating. And, um, those sorts of moments that broaden your horizons that blow blow your mind that they're really interesting. So [00:02:30] I got into composing then, and I've been doing it ever since. So I would have been about 16 when I started, and it's almost 20 years ago. So what was it about contemporary composition that that really kind of fired you up? What can you describe? What were the things? That kind of I, I think the the main thing is that it was a feeling that anything could happen and that, um, and that anything was possible. And, um and that's that's not something that you always, [00:03:00] um, experience especially. You know, when you're a student, you don't have the kind of ability that professionals have. And so you don't always feel that that you're in control of, of the sounds you want to make if you're a performer, Um, or if you're just sort of learning about things but just hearing a universe that that can imagine any kind of combination of sounds and make it logical and and to some degree beautiful [00:03:30] I found that really, really special and quite poignant. And that's really interesting, because when you think about things like, say, Beethoven, which is very kind of stable, and, you know, you have a sense that this is this is how it goes. It's interesting that you're kind of going for quite the opposite, where actually, anything can Yeah, And in some ways, um, with things like repertoire Beethoven, I've kind of come back to them. But with this idea that historically what [00:04:00] they were doing was also, you know, really broadening horizons and really blowing people's minds. Um, in today's context, it seems much more traditional, much more conventional. But But, uh, in their own contexts, it was, uh it was, um, quite experimental. I guess you could say they're really pushing the bound the boundaries as well. But, um, that's just something I think that was really attractive to to the teenage man and actually remains [00:04:30] very attractive. I think it's I still find things in other people's music and and hopefully in my own music as well. There are little discoveries that, uh, that broaden the the possibilities, the realm of possibilities. And and I'm always I'm always looking for that. I think so. How do you react to listening to your own work? Um, it's interesting because it's because you know it so [00:05:00] well. It's existed in your imagination for so long when you when you do finally hear a performance that, uh, that that when you are hearing it, it's, um it can be almost surreal. And sometimes it's almost that you you have to force yourself into a situation where you listen almost objectively as if you're listening to someone else's work. Otherwise, you're not gonna be able to, um, be professional, [00:05:30] have have a have a sense of what what needs to happen with it. Um, So, um, usually I can It can be really overwhelming. Uh, and sometimes it's terrifying, especially first rehearsals, because, you know, I, I write tricky stuff and and it takes a little while to get together. And sometimes if you are at the first rehearsal, it can be a bit heartbreaking. But, um, in the right circumstances II I sometimes [00:06:00] moved in unusual ways, and I think the the the way that other people would listen to it would be quite different. I think that that what I what I hear and it it maybe that that has sort of different features or different. Um uh, I don't know, salient points of interest for me than others, and it must be really useful in the rehearsal process to actually have the composer there so that you can actually discuss with the musicians. What? What? [00:06:30] You're intending and and they can II, I think I think yes and no. I think I think sometimes the composer can get in the way. But there's there's different. There's the um with the rehearsals of any sort. There's there's those little magic moments where it's all kind of working and and the entire mechanism is working as it should. And and, um and sometimes the exactly as you said the composer can really offer insight into into into [00:07:00] how it goes. But sometimes it's just impractical. But it's it's great to be there for rehearsals. It's great to when it's going well, It's so it's the most fun that music can never be. Rehearsals more than performances, actually, when when? When It's when it's going well and everyone's engaged, it's It's pretty amazing music making. So what you imagine, um, to begin with, does that translate easily onto the [00:07:30] page? Do you? Do you find that what actually ends up in the in the rest of us hearing? Is it the same as what you hear? Yes. Yes, I'd say I'd say, um, most of the time, Um, I'm quite a slow composer. I'm quite detail oriented. And so I think very, very hard about, um, about every detail and and every every note and every rhythm and it, um, and [00:08:00] I know that most composers I I feel like most composers do think quite hard about it as well. I just think it's it's just something that that I really, um, that I really sink my teeth into And because of that, it's, uh it's so um I guess well worked out in my head that that when it is on the page, it's it is It's just [00:08:30] so there's obviously room for interpretation in certain regards, but But basically I think what what I'm going for comes out 95% of the time here. And another interesting thing, I guess, is that you're working in such detail and spending a lot of time over it. But for an audience, they're hearing it in real time. So the the I suppose that time span is quite different, isn't it? [00:09:00] Yeah, there's a There's a, um, a lovely tension, and actually, it's something that that I think composers will exploit, or they will explore, I guess, is, um is the amount of mystery that that, um, that music has. It's It's not something that's that's immediate. It's not something that's transparent. It's It's something where you can, uh, create kind of clouds and and and, [00:09:30] um, in a sort of hazy quality, no matter what the expression is. And that's something that composers have always used. You know. That's why Bach is so contrapuntal toys with the mechanism of how people hear things and and that's and that's a really beautiful thing. In fact, for me, transparency and clarity are less desirable [00:10:00] than kind of mystery. And that sort of, um, cloudy aspect. Yeah. So are you writing for an audience? Are you writing for yourself? Who are you writing for? Yes, Yes. To both, I think. Yeah. So I I'd like to think of myself as an audience member and and, uh, and I. I always like to say that I write for the listener, and then it can be said that it's whoever [00:10:30] cares, cares to listen to it. Um, but But I think that, you know, audiences are smart, and they have they have an appetite for things that are, um, that are slightly out outside of the box, and that that's what I do or what I try and do. And, um, well, not everyone's going to be engaged by that immediately. I. I think that there's possibility for for any [00:11:00] audience member to to find something there and, like you were saying earlier that in his time Beethoven was kind of out of the box and now is seen as quite standard. So it's interesting, isn't it? How how kind of you know, fashions and, um, what people consider to be mainstream changes. Yeah, of course, of course. And you know the people that in in all realms of of music, I think there are people who are trying to push the boundaries. Uh, it's [00:11:30] just with what I do. It's probably the the boundary pushing aspects of it are probably the most, um, salient aspect to an audience. That's that's probably what what strikes them straight away rather than, um rather than for, you know, pop music or something like that, where where there might be people who are trying to explore different things, it's just the aspects are the more, um, immediate and and, um, [00:12:00] kind of easily recognisable. So if I said to you name one emotion that you were what was the main emotion in your music? What would what would that kind of emotion be? I'd like to think that there are quite a few, but, um, for me, I like the idea of, um of aggression or latent aggression. And that sounds, um, it's It's not necessarily that all all of my music is violent, but it I think there's [00:12:30] a, um, an aggressive quality that that I think comes out of a few different places. Um, I often think about the way that, um, and Maori culture the way that you greet a group of visitors or the way that people come together. Um, the the the kind of ceremony and the kind of ritual has elements of aggression in it. But it's [00:13:00] not in order to frighten people. It's in order to welcome them, you know, and there, and there are obviously traditional reasons for that. But there's a sort of beauty in that, and I think a quality that that I that I'm attracted to It happens in other cultures as well. There's, um, there's a Korean music theatre, a style called and there's a real sort of a defiant kind of aggression. [00:13:30] Um and the old Maori songs have this as well. So, um I, I think that kind of quality is, um is quite special to me. My music doesn't sound like these these things, really, But it's, um but it's that sort of emotional quality that that I am quite attracted to this year is the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform. And so I thought, I'll bring the two strands together. How do [00:14:00] you think sexuality and music composition into weave, or do they or don't they? How how is it for you? It's really hard to say, actually, because I think, um, it it's pretty different depending on where you are in history. In my lifetime, it's gone from being illegal to be gay to being basically pretty widely accepted. Um, and and so I think [00:14:30] that some of the kind of real world challenges that older gay composers had, uh, it just never gonna be the reality for me or for, um, gay composers around my age. So you know what links me and nothing, really. You know, in in terms of in terms of that, um so I. I wonder, um, how much? Obviously it's It's a part of my life [00:15:00] to be gay and, um and it's, you know, a big part of my universe. But I don't know if if it translates to, you know, the notes on the page are there are gay chords or my music or anything like that. But, um, the yeah, I think looking at at other composers throughout history, So you know, whether they're in New Zealand, people like Jack Body, um, even Douglas lorn [00:15:30] the impact that it had would be really different for them because it was a different time. It was. And there they were, much, much bigger challenges. You know, Douglas, I think was basically closeted, you can say, and so that's definitely going to have an impact on the way he works. Um, the same with, you know, older composers, uh, sort of in the 19th century, people like Tchaikovsky. Um, whereas somebody like John Cage, [00:16:00] it was probably an asset, you know, he was able to communicate with both his his partner, Miss Miss Cunningham, and and other people in the gay community. And so it's really hard to say exactly what kind of impact it would have. Um, on me. I don't know if it if if If there's a kind of, um if there's something in my music that that reflects it or not, I think only other people could really say, [00:16:30] Has it been an area that you've wanted to kind of explore in terms of? Uh, I'm not really sure, I guess if I was looking at sort of extra musical subjects, um then there might be things that that could come up I? I don't know. Um, probably the closest thing, Uh, these days I'm sort of looking at it. Um, [00:17:00] it sounds from my everyday life and and, um, creating transcriptions of, like, little kind of sound samples with there'd be, like a a bird call or something really simple, Like the pattern of speech or, um, or kind of water dripping into a class or something like that, Um, and transcribing them and and, um, them orchestrating them in in different circumstances. And, uh, the last piece I finished [00:17:30] had a, um I used a little kind of clip of of, um, an obscure disco song and that it doesn't You can't hear it in the piece. It's not. There's no kind of sonic line drawn between that and and the result, but I guess because it's in the background, maybe there's some some aspect of this that that that kind of in existence is [00:18:00] an element of gay culture at least, um, albeit from a different time and a time before I was born. So that's that's another another thing. But yeah, something, just something that I find that I'm fond of and that I find interesting. Maybe it's a kind of a a wider than, uh, composition question, I guess. In terms of as A as a younger gay man, do you feel that you need to be out there as a gay person [00:18:30] or it's just part of your life? I feel like I need to be, um, be honest, upfront and natural about about being a gay person, that it is a part of my life. I don't feel any need to behave in any way other than than what I feel comes natural. And, um, and I feel really lucky that I can live in a time when I can do that, that I [00:19:00] can just be myself. I can be gay, I can have a boyfriend and and we can walk around town like normal people and have Christmas with with my family and go to my nieces and nephews birthday parties and and that it's all totally fine. Maybe it's not totally fine to everyone, but they don't say so, and it's and it's it's [00:19:30] no trouble for them. It's no skin off their nose. So So I feel really kind of fortunate in that regard, Um, and that I don't have to hide anything about myself or eat in any particular way. It's really is, um, an asset you mentioned earlier, um, about check body, or you just, um, um named Jack. Jack, Um, you had quite a close friendship with Jack, and I'm just wondering, um, he passed a year [00:20:00] ago, just over a year ago. Um, what was Jack like? Jack was, um, was a kind of amazing guy. He, uh, was magnanimous as as a as a personality and and and as a as a human being. He was, um, very personable and very familiar. Uh, both he and his partner, they were always very welcoming. And, [00:20:30] um, and a great musical mind as well. And, um, somebody who really did like to engage with uh, with other musicians that he that he, um, that he saw talent in or that he that he, um whose music he he found interesting. So I was was really lucky to be part of Jack's circle, um, both in New Zealand and overseas. When you go overseas and you're from New Zealand and you're involved in contemporary music, they'll always ask [00:21:00] you if you know Jack, he's the one that everyone knows. So he's the which is a reflection on on his personality, but also on his kind of generosity of spirit. Um, he was It was also could be, you know, tricky. Sometimes he, um he had lots of ideas, and he was he wanted to do a lot of things. And you, you you often had a job to do. So that was that was something that, and including after his passing, he I I still had work to do for him, which [00:21:30] was which was interesting, but that just that's part of being a friend to Jack. But he he really did like the idea of, um, family and and I use it both in the kind of the the sense of gay parents, but but also just the idea of having people around him and close to him that, uh, that he that he he [00:22:00] could provide kind of support to in in this way. And, um, yeah, so it was It was almost from the get go, a much closer relationship than you'd expect. It was much more, um, intimate and much more interested in in in your life in general than, um then then you would expect from a competition teacher. So, um, [00:22:30] but he was really kind and very, uh, generous, Especially professionally. He really provided a lot of opportunity to me and to other people, Um, in my situation as well. Um, and I, I really think I I wouldn't be a composer if it wasn't for Jack. He was He was. But the reason that I wanted to study, um, at a at a high level, and he was, and he provided [00:23:00] the kind of opportunities that meant that I can become professional and and sort of make that next step. What kind of ongoing impact do you think he will have on you? I? I think about Jack. Quite a lot, actually. And, um and sometimes when I'm working on something or if, um, if I'm at a at a concert [00:23:30] somewhere, or if if there's something coming up, I always think to myself, I think Jack would really would really love this. I think he'd really he'd he'd find this really exciting and, um and and that's I know I'm not alone in that. I think that a lot of people find that about, um the the work that they do, He sort of he has a he has a presence. I guess, Um, I think that he's also [00:24:00] made me want to, um, to explore the idea of community and to to try and enrich this sense of community within, uh, New Zealand, uh, composition and new music. And I think that that's, um I think that's really something that that a debt that that we that we that we owe [00:24:30] Jack and and New Zealand music, and I think that that's something that has to continue Pretty. You know, he was just one guy who was able to do all these things, and I think it will take more than one guy to to do more of this going forward. But that's that's definitely something that, um, that I feel is his legacy. He always struck me as just this. Um he was like an energizer bunny. [00:25:00] You know, it was just, like, the most amazing amount of energy. I Yeah. And so many projects on the go at any one time. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And and and that's I. I think it's partly why everyone always had a job to do, because he was he was just doing so much. And yeah, and walking into Jack's office or into his home sometimes felt like you were hit with a wall of, of of stuff to do and think about which was great. It was exciting, [00:25:30] but also hard work. And so, yeah, he was He was really, um he was tireless and and really dedicated to this and and, yeah, we've all got to step, step up a little bit, I think a a And he actually wrote a number of quite homo erotic pieces, didn't he? I'm thinking of the Michael Angelo sonnets. And also the real ally opera? Yeah, all opera and, um, a piece called Stations of the Cross, [00:26:00] which is a solo piano piano piece that you wrote for for Dan Point. But there's, um, quite a lot of, uh, It's almost choreographic in the way it's written, and and and there's there's definitely a lot of, um, sort of hoo imagery and theatricality in it. Yeah, it must be quite interesting just to to to go back and look at, um, say, like, Jack's work. But it also earlier say, like, um, work and and see. [00:26:30] I mean, do you see kind of homo erotic elements or homosexual elements? Say, like in Lil Burns work? It's really hard to say. And, um, Jack wrote a little article for the Composers Association yearbook, which is called Kon a few years ago, and, um and I'm not sure if I see anything necessarily in Lil Ben's work. That's, um hoo. I think a lot of it is about [00:27:00] masculinity, though in a certain sense, um, I'm thinking, in particular of Sings Harry and the return. Uh, those are the two that I think have elements of of masculinity and kind of New Zealand masculinity, which is interesting, but, um, I think what? Jack article. If I remember it, right, he sort of suggest was, um, that they had these kind of obsessions and and that that some [00:27:30] how reflected a kind of gay sensibility? Um, I don't know if I agree, but it's it's there. Um, I I I'm trying to think of of many gay composers and and what elements of of their music, um has that kind of, um sensibility or, um, elements of hoo imagery? And obviously, Britain is an obvious example [00:28:00] because these operas were often around gay themes. Uh, especially death in Venice And Peter Grimes, Um, but for John Cage or, um, Samuel Barber or I'm I'm not really sure if if if that kind of applies, if that's something that's there. But, um, with Jack, I think it was really [00:28:30] something that he felt the need to do. And I think it was something that really, um, fascinated him, and he was Also Jack's sense of humour was, um was really amazing. And he had this, um, this preocupa preoccupation with with kit, which is really interesting. And so things like the, um the kind of, um, I. I guess it's like an oratorio. But what [00:29:00] what he did about, um came and there's an awful lot of kind of K and that and it's really interesting and and and quite sort of cute and quaint in a way, which is which is nice. A few years ago, I think it was maybe 2013. Samuel Holloway put on a concert in Auckland that, uh, I think was billed as the first concert featuring all rainbow [00:29:30] composers from New Zealand. Um, and I was wondering, how do you How do you see something like that concert Like I mean, if you're not saying that you've got you can see gay elements in your composition, but to be included in a concert that is specifically about, um, rainbow composers II. I guess the question is, are you happy to see to see yourself as a gay composer? Of course. Yes. And I think when you're programming concerts, uh, if you want [00:30:00] to build a Lincoln, um, it can sometimes feel a little bit arbitrary. But it's it's something that you can, um, that you can do to tie a concert together. And that concert had an amazing range of composers. If I remember rightly. David Hamilton, Um, I think Samuel might have had a piece in there. Claire cow. And these are very, very different and distinct voices. So I think, um, using some [00:30:30] kind of underlying or background element to to tie something that has an enormous amount of variety together is interesting in itself. So of course, there's, um, being programmed in a concert like that would be interesting. Uh, regardless, especially if it was approached in that way, in the in the sense of variety you were saying that you're currently [00:31:00] working on on a composition that that's dealing with kind of everyday sounds and and recent sizing them. Can you tell me more about that? Yeah. So, uh, um, I tend to make little recordings or use, um, recordings of very, very small things. Um, and then, um, transcribe them. So, uh, so not they kind of the rhythm and pitch quality, but, uh, using technology. Now, um, you can also, uh, transcribe [00:31:30] the colour. So the the amount of, um, the the upper upper partials or the the harmonic series that that's resonating. Um, that that's not that, um, prominent and not as prominent as their fundamental pitch. But, uh, that kind of gives them colour, and and because of that, it's sort of you're able to explore the things that make I don't know, uh, a guitar sound like a guitar or a bell? [00:32:00] Sound like a bell, that sort of thing. And and, um, those elements that that that give it that colour are often a little bit chaotic and very interesting, sonically. And so they're the sorts of things that I like to kind of resonate throughout my pieces and and, um, and explore in detail. So that's that's what I've been doing And that's I guess it creates a not an abstract. It's still a sonic link, [00:32:30] but, um, but a link to these sounds that's not about the context, necessarily, but but about the way they resonate and and the way they they, um, they reverberate in both space and also in memory. It's something that I that I like. So how do you pick those sounds initially? What? What sparks you when you hear something around you? What [00:33:00] it's usually an attract an attractive quality to the to the colour, Um, and And so, um, if for me something like water dripping into a glass has, um, has a lot of interesting colour to me, it's it's, um it's a little bit chaotic as a sound and, um, and also quite beautiful. But actually, in some senses that picking [00:33:30] the sounds can be almost arbitrary just because they're just something that that's part of your life or part of your everyday existence. And so it's the element that I like. And from there it's all about the working out is what ends up being the composition the working out of of, uh, what the The little minutiae are to make up the sound. So in [00:34:00] about a month's time, you're heading back down to Yeah, so I'll be back in a few weeks. Yeah, um, and be back at the music school, then. Yeah, and so when you're at the music school, uh, what kind of wisdom do you impart on for? For younger composers? Uh, I, I don't know if there's anything in particular that I I tend to just, um I like to see what people are up to and and see, um, see what [00:34:30] what they like in music, and and, um, and what kind of things they're doing, and then look for ways that I can possibly, um, expand on that and and, um, and find ways to, um, inject little sort of, uh, aspects or moments of of interest, and and, um, and kind of encourage them to explore the extremes [00:35:00] of of some of these things. Um, but usually, II, I think that composers always they have ideas. And and it's about, um, getting those ideas to be, um, mhm to be more fruitful and, um, and finding ways to to get them to, um, to both work, but also to to sort of being much more lateral and much broader [00:35:30] as his musical ideas. So you're still quite young, but there's a generation, um, coming up after. So I'm guessing you, you're you're, um, interacting with the next generation coming up? Yes, I guess so. Yeah. Not not so young. Um, but do you do you see much difference between, say, like, your age group and the people coming through now? Absolutely. Yeah, there is. There is a difference. And I think the difference is, um is partly [00:36:00] due to technology. I'm a pencil and paper composer, and, um and that's always how I learned. And, um and I also, you know, I was a composer who used to just go to the libraries and look at scores. So So that was that was how how I worked. I think younger composers have a better grasp, but much more access to technology. A lot of them don't write anything [00:36:30] down. They work straight on computers. Uh, they do a lot of listening, but But they have, um, access access to libraries all over the place. You know, I used to have to go to the library and and and find find things. So, um, yeah, I'm finding that they're much more digitally sort of aware, And, um and that's that's a big a big change. But, um, you know, otherwise, you see a lot of comparisons, [00:37:00] and and, um and it's nice to nice to be able to talk about when you were you were their age or you were at this stage of composition, so yeah.
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