This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. You can search the text using Ctrl-F, and you can also play the audio by clicking on a desired timestamp.
Kia ora everybody. Uh, yes, so my name is Will. Firstly, just huge thanks to Caleb for putting this all together. Um, it's just such a privilege to get to come to events like this where we get to gather our communities together and, uh, it's so wonderful. I know, uh, for myself, just seeing so many familiar faces and new faces as well. And it really does feel like coming home when you come to queer events in Pōneki and, uh, I always think what my young self would think, my young closet self would think getting to come in and keep on seeing [00:00:30] all these wonderful rainbow faces and, uh, new faces every time as well. Um, so welcome everyone. So glad you could be here. Um, it's my absolute honor to be your MC, uh, for this. fabulous panel today. We're in the presence of such incredible queer historic knowledge, uh, sitting, sitting on either side of me, um, who are doing such incredible things, uh, to preserve and share queer histories. Um, so yeah, today we're going to hear from, uh, some local stories about queer lives in this place, [00:01:00] uh, in Porneke, uh, and after each, each one of these guys are going to, I'll pass the mic around, oh no, I'll introduce you guys. Yeah, I'll introduce them. And then, they're each gonna come up and, um, give a presentation about some local stories. Uh, then I'll ask some questions to get us started. Then I'll open it up to all of you. Um, if you do ask a question, please wait for a microphone to be handed to you. Uh, we're recording for prideNZ. com, so you get to be part of history if you ask a question. So I think that's a really good incentive. [00:01:30] Um, and yeah, without further ado, uh, so.. Firstly, we've got the wonderful Kieran Pollock, uh, Kieran is a historian and senior heritage, uh, advisor at Heritage New Zealand, who's currently leading the Rainbow List project, which I'm sure we'll hear more about, it's a fantastic project, and I encourage you all to get thinking and send Kieran emails if you've got any ideas after, after Kieran's speech, uh, and then we'll hear from Erin Ramsey, Erin is a A colleague of mine up at Victoria University, Aaron's [00:02:00] just finished their master's thesis about histories of non binary people in Aotearoa, New Zealand, so that's absolutely incredible work that we're very lucky that they've done, so excited to hear more about that. And then finally we've got the wonderful Gareth Watkins sitting over here. Uh, Gareth is currently a data man collections data manager. at Te Papa, um, and a community historian whose website, prideNZ. com, uh, has over 800 audio recordings of, yeah, it's a huge wahoo, it's awesome, of um, [00:02:30] different events and interviews that Gareth has done and other people have done. Um, so definitely check out prideNZ. com if you haven't already. Um, and he also does fabulous walk tours with his wonderful partner Roger, um, which I'm sure you'll talk about as well. So, yeah, without further ado. Uh, Kieran, would you like to get us started? Oh, don't forget, oh, yeah. Thank you, Will. Um, thanks so much for coming, everybody. Um, [00:03:00] I just want to reiterate, um, thank you to Caleb for putting this event on. It's truly amazing, and I think we all know how important, uh, events like this are to help us bring, bring us all together, um, in the face of some pretty horrific stuff that's going on right now. Also, I always have to shout out to Gareth's work when I do this sort of thing because it is a truly amazing resource. I use it a lot in my work at Heritage New Zealand, Pohiri Taonga, and just generally speaking. Uh, do check it out. That is [00:03:30] truly amazing. Um, so.. A really important, um, piece of work that I do in my professional life, which is really meaningful to me in my personal life, is, uh, we'll mention the Rainbow List Project, which is a project that is geared towards Um, ensuring that our heritage list, which is what Heritage New Zealand does, it's our national list of historic places, that it really represents and includes our communities didn't used to.[00:04:00] Um, I think we all know why. I don't need to go into the reasons there. Um, and it's something that we needed to remedy. So that's my, my baby and it brings me a lot of joy and fulfillment. Um, heritage is all about the history of place. And so in the course of I've come across some really fascinating places, um, including in Wellington, and I'm going to talk about one of them tonight. So, [00:04:30] um, all of you, I'm sure, will recognize the rainbow crossing that's not too far away from here. I do apologize for this less than ideal picture. Um, so that's it from the air. And the building to the right of that is the Oaks Complex building, uh, which has totally seen better days. Um, . It wasn't once that way. It is now. Uh, but so when the Rainbow Crossing was opened on [00:05:00] that intersection in 2018, the Mayor of Wellington at the time, Justin Lester, said it was placed there because Cuba Street is considered by many to be the spiritual home of Wellington's Pride movement, which is absolutely true. It's a great shout out to our city's queer history, but it's much more than that. Um, the Crossing was a perhaps, Overdue public acknowledgement that Wellington actually has a queer history. Um, It's like the heritage list, you know, we've [00:05:30] got all of these places and lists and books and so on, um, that for various reasons don't tell our stories, um, and it's up to us to remedy that as historians. Um, so, if Cuba Street was the queer spiritual home of our city, then the Royal Oak Hotel was something like the living room or the kitchen. You know when you're at a party and people congregate in the living room or the kitchen. Well, absolutely, the Royal Oak Hotel site, um, was that place. Um, and can I just [00:06:00] say, if anyone here was there at the time, I would love to talk to you, um, about it. Uh, so.. That's the Royal Oak Hotel. So this building was on the site of the Oaks complex now. So for those of you who don't know, that's the building that has, I think it's got the body shop on one corner and Area 51 on another corner. This building here was built in 1900. [00:06:30] It was the third hotel of the same name on that site. This view here, I don't know if it's obvious to you all, but it's the Manor Street side, so you imagine if you're standing at the bus stop outside the Bargain Chemist and you're looking towards the Oats Complex, that's the view that we're looking at here. Um, so why am I interested in this? Well, hotels and pubs and bars are really crucial sites in our queer history. Um, you know, if we're [00:07:00] thinking about chosen family, um, they are absolutely crucial to that concept. So, after the Second World War, This building here, the Royal Oak Hotel, became a really popular watering hole for visiting sailors, um, but also the city's colourful subcultures, and so we're talking sex workers and their pimps, gangsters, drug dealers, but also the queers of the city. It [00:07:30] had a number of different bars on the inside of it, um, And some of those bars were where the queers congregated. Um, this first one here is the tavern bar. And this is the public bar. Uh, the really important queer space in the Royal Oak was the Bistro Bar, and I have not ever located a photo of that, so if anyone has got any tips, do let me know.[00:08:00] Um, let's go back to the tavern bar. So, the late and absolutely great Georgina Byer, um, rest her, and our local hospitality legend Malcolm Kennedy Vaughan met there in the early 1970s, uh, when 17 year old Georgina got her first job in Wellington as a night porter. Um, and Malcolm worked in the Oaks coffee shop nearby. I [00:08:30] had the great good fortune to.. about three hours talking to Georgina and Scotty and Mel about all manner of things, queer in Wellington, including this place. Um, we had quite a few wines, it was extremely entertaining. Um, and one of the highlights of my career to date. Um, I did record it, uh, but I, I haven't got any footage to share with you tonight because We did have a few [00:09:00] wines and I forgot to get permission to share the recording. Um, however I can tell you that, um, what Georgina told me about this place. So she said that the Royal Oak ran a diverse clientele. By the way, I just want to preface this by saying that the language in here is Georgina's language, her language of the time, absolutely valid to her. Some, it might not be for us today, but this is, this is what she said to me. The Royal Oak Hotel ran a [00:09:30] diverse clientele. If you wanted anything, you'd go to the Bistro Bar, so that's the bar that I have not found a photo of. Big rumbles would go down there. There were crims of all sorts, stealing to order. The Bistro Bar was where the trannies and the prostitutes would go. The Tavern Bar, so that one there, was where the gay boys would go. Upstairs was a Toledo, a more classy bar where the trendy gays went. Um, she told me that there wasn't much lesbian space at the Royal Oak, but um, [00:10:00] my research has shown that lesbians did indeed go to the Royal Oak, yay. Um, Um, apparently the story goes that they would be escorted in there by gay men. Um, it was really tricky for women to go into pubs back at that time, um, so they didn't even escort. Uh, but once they were inside, they went their separate ways and found the people that they were really interested in. Um, also the Royal Oak was a place where lesbian feminists [00:10:30] sold their lesbian journal, The Circle, which is the first lesbian journal in New Zealand in the 1970s when it first started being published. So obviously.. It was a place where lesbians went as well. Um, one of the things that I really love about the Royal Oak Hotel and I think why it's become such a, uh, source of interest to me is that it truly exemplifies the chosen family concept. Um, and I use that word, that sort of phrase liberally, um, [00:11:00] Georgina mentioned all the rumbles that went down there. There was a lot of criminal activity, um, that went on, um, but that's what families are like. There's the good, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Um, but it absolutely was a place where queer people could go, um, post second world war and feel at home. Um, I can't describe it better than Georgina does, so just bear with me while I read a small excerpt from her autobiography, Change for the Better, which [00:11:30] is an amazing read. Please read it. Um, she says, It was at the Royal Oak Hotel that I discovered the Wellington gay scene. The hotel had two bars, the Bistro and the Tavern. The Bistro was always seen as a bar for sailors, prostitutes and people of dubious morals, while the Tavern was definitely regarded as a gay bar. At the time, the Tavern Bar and the Dorian Society Club in Lambton Quay were the only two venues for gay men in Wellington. Carmen's establishments were also [00:12:00] welcoming of gay patrons, but I was totally unaware of the drag scene then. So just think, Georgina is 17 at this time. At the Royal Oak Hotel, I met Rion McKenzie, the hotel's restaurant manager. He was gay and intuitively detected that I was not straight. Rion befriended me and introduced me to a wide circle of people, both straight and gay. Through the tavern bar, I got to know the gay scene further. Though I was working as a porter, I was actually underage to be in a bar. I was [00:12:30] 17 and quite naive. But with my flamboyancy, I fitted in well. There was general acceptance of me as new, young meat. And I felt comfortable. For the first time in my life I was able to let my guard down a bit and become more relaxed. I wasn't immediately ostracized for being feminine and I didn't have to do the superficial macho thing. Being femmy or flamboyant among gays was the norm. Isn't that lovely?[00:13:00] Ah, so this is obviously Georgina looking absolutely stunning. What a babe. Um, and on the right is a very young Mel from Scotty and Mel's Bar. Um, yeah. So those two went on to flat together. They were the best of friends and I know that Georgina had dinner with Scotty and Mel every Monday. Um. Until not long before her passing. Which is just really [00:13:30] gorgeous. Um. Sadly, the hotel was demolished in 1979. Um, this is a real occupational hazard for me in heritage that so many of our queer spaces have been demolished or lost through other means. Um, it's a problem for us anyway. But particularly when you come to think of, you know, subcultures, marginal communities, whatever you want to call it. Um, who's.. whose tenure in these places is, is pretty [00:14:00] contingent on all sorts of things that are outside of their control. It's really hard to find actual places, still, that represent these people. And I know, Gareth, you find that with your walks. You know, you're often talking about what was there, rather than what is there today. Um, but if you look at the rainbow list, you'll see that there are some places left. Just a plug for that. So, this, this is the Oaks, looking slightly cooler than it does these days. This was built in 19, uh, 1981. [00:14:30] Um, it's actually designed by the very, uh, renowned architectural firm Warren and Marnie. And, um, for some reason they don't, um, talk about this as being one of their buildings. Uh, it's really hard to track, track down, but yes, they did design it. Um, There are some more photos of this on DigitalNZ, I think, um, and you can see the inside. It was supposed to be a pretty swanky, I think, mall. Apparently it was only supposed to be [00:15:00] temporary, but it was intended to be Wellington's Crystal Palace. So the Crystal Palace was a building in 1850s London that was built for a big fair. So it was supposed to be this amazing space, and it didn't quite work out that way. Um, however, um, because of its, um, connection to our queer history, I totally think it's right for a takeover. So if there are any, um, queer artists or performers out there, I think you should go up the stairs and check out the space and do something there. Because that would be [00:15:30] amazing. Um.. There were actually queer bars in this building as well, um, there was Bamboo, which I think Mel might have worked at, um, the Toledo, and later on Pound was there, yeah. So, it's no coincidence, um, that the Wellington branch of Alfies, which was a queer nightclub, that was first opened in Auckland and was open there for a very long time. Um, was opposite [00:16:00] the Oaks. So that's, as you can see, the Rainbow Crossing and that early 1980s building there, um, was the site of Alfie's. Um, that's um, marketing from the time. Pretty great. Uh, so Alfies II was opened between 1988 and 1994. Um, so some of you here might remember that place. Um, it was basically the [00:16:30] local headquarters of Out Magazine, which was a queer empire that was based in Auckland. And they had Alfies there. Um, also Saunders and Out magazine. Um, so this was the, the Wellington branch. Um, so the Alfies in Wellington also had a sauna for a time, I believe. Various other queer businesses. There was the Out Bookshop, um, which was open until [00:17:00] 1994, I think, when it closed. So when it opened.. The legendary trans diva, Carmen Arrupe, was flown in, she was living in Sydney at the time, to open it. Uh, Georgina Byer was one of the entertainers on the night, so Georgina had made a real career up in Auckland in the Alfies there as part of Bloomers, which was a, a dancing troupe, I guess you would say, very popular. Um, so they were flown down here to open Alfies. Um, Mal Kennedy Vaughan [00:17:30] was assistant manager for a time. Um, so just to reiterate, I don't think it's any coincidence that Alfie's was opened in this location, right opposite the Royal Oak Hotel. Um, it's really clear that this is a queer nexus for Wellington in terms of our queer history and heritage. And while it's not so obvious today, the Rainbow Crossing really speaks to that. Um, so for me.. This place, [00:18:00] this intersection, this building, or the building that once was, um, is an absolute, um, exemplification of a chosen family. Thank you. Kia ora tatou. Um, as Will said, my name's Erin. Um, I have recently submitted my master's thesis at Vic. [00:18:30] Um, I am currently awaiting my grade. So that's kind of a fun position to be in, but anyway, um, yeah, before I begin, I'd like to acknowledge Wellington's tangata whenua and whose lands we're currently on, um, including Ngāti Toa, Rangatira and Taranaki Whānui. Um, I'd also like to thank Caleb from City Gallery for helping put this event together and for Will, um, who invited me to [00:19:00] be a part of this, so yeah, very grateful. Um, I've only got the one slide, so apologies I haven't got any pictures, but, um, I'll try to tell this a bit like a story maybe. So if you want to like sit back, close your eyes, maybe just have a listen. So yeah, as you can see from my slide and Will's introduction, the topic of my thesis was non binary history in Aotearoa, New Zealand.[00:19:30] This was a tricky topic to approach, as some of you might imagine. Given that in our archives, there really aren't any written sources that use the label non binary beyond ones from probably the early 2010s on, this does not mean that our country Doesn't have non binary history. Um, as is possibly typical in queer history, you have to get creative with where you look for those stories. Um, so for my thesis, I turned to [00:20:00] oral history, um, as a, as a source. Um, Uh, place to find those stories, um, which Karen has kind of touched on a bit. Um, I ended up interviewing five non binary adults and elders about their lives, um, and worked with three others who provided written responses to some of my questions. The youngest of these eight was born in the early 1980s and the oldest turned 70 earlier this year. Um, so if anyone [00:20:30] tells you that, like, non binary people in New Zealand, like, oh, it's a young thing, everyone's under 30, they're wrong. Um, uh, yes. Uh, and two, two were born in the 1970s, three in the 1960s, and two in the 1950s. Um, it was an honor to hear these people's stories, um, and to work with them to add to queer and trans history in Aotearoa. Um, when I refer to my narrators tonight, I'll use pseudonyms to maintain anonymity. Um, though [00:21:00] on my actual thesis, I. Uh, most chose to use their real names. Um, so what has family meant to these people who I spoke to, what forms has it taken? Um, in the stories people gave me of their lives, um, I didn't find the straightforward stories you might expect from queer people of family rejection and then acceptance into queer community. Um, though relationships with the family [00:21:30] could be complicated. Um, Bryn, who grew up in Kirikou, which is a tiny area of the Waikato, um, they grew up in the 1950s. They found that their parents were accepting of their gender nonconformity as long as wearing their dad's clothing and running around barefoot was confined to the family farm. Um, Jacob, who grew up in a small town in North Canterbury in the 1980s, was surrounded by matriarchal figures during their childhood, lots of aunties who were mostly storytellers [00:22:00] in one way or another. Um, they experienced family as intergenerational, with lots of old folk and folk who were passing over and dying, and then lots of people being born. Um, Both Jacob and Bryn experienced trauma at the hands of their families because of their queerness. Jacob because of his family's growing involvement with fundamentalist Christianity in his teens. And Bryn because of their family's non acceptance of their intersex body. Um, And later in their early twenties, the shame when [00:22:30] Bryn came out as a lesbian. Um, However, especially in the privacy of the farm environment, more was accepted. Which is very interesting when you kind of think of the around queerness and rural spaces. Um, I think this speaks to both how family non acceptance of queerness has a lot to do with worries around external perception. Um, and also how usually those assigned female at birth. generally have a lot more leeway when it [00:23:00] comes to gender nonconformity. Jacob mentioned that in rural environments, the rules for femininity are really, really broad, but those for masculinity are very narrow, meaning there was no room for any gender expression, other than butch or stereotypically masculine. For their male cousins and their uncles, Lily, one of my narrators who grew up in the sixties and seventies and who was intergender and trans femme remembered assuming as a child that all little boys wanted to be girls until they found out that the local [00:23:30] neighborhood boys did not agree. Um, uh, queer community could be a boon to those who had found little acceptance elsewhere. Um, Huata, born in 1963, found Takatapui community in Dunedin and Wellington in the 1980s and 1990s. Um, and I'll read out, they, they gave me this really lovely.. Um, quote in the interview, which I think is really beautiful, um, as describing how they came across the term takatāpui. [00:24:00] Um, so they came across it by hanging out with quote, queer Māori who are very rebellious that stuck together to look after one another, who had been kicked out of their own families, their own communities, very flamboyant, very happy go lucky partying all the time. And I just really loved that. I understood what it meant. We celebrated it. It held us like a whānau, you know. We could be who we were within the term takatapui. It's so much more umbrella and embracing. I just wanted to be embraced. [00:24:30] I wanted to be part of something that didn't constrict me, but still reflected back to me that I was a worthy person, that I was enough. So, for Huata, uh, takatapui offered a form of whānau that they had not received growing up in state care. Um, Elizabeth Kirikiri writes that takatapui identity is based on whakapapa, mana, and inclusion. Um, so finding Takatāpui community was part of that restoration of mana and experience of inclusion for them. Um, and this is kind of a good place to mention [00:25:00] too when it comes to gender non conformity in New Zealand, Takatāpui were the first. Um, they were as Elizabeth Kitty title, so thesis, part of the whanau. Um, so Hu's experience of Takatapui community as whanau is a continuation of a much older tradition of Takatapui simply being members of the whanau. Um, Huta was also on the periphery of lesbian communities, but they felt alienated from them feeling they did not fit the certain criteria or the certain look of the lesbian [00:25:30] scene of Dunedin in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Um, Bryn also had difficult experiences with Wellington's lesbian separate, lesbian separatist community in the late 1980s. Um, they were effectively kicked out after they, uh, had their, had a process of discovering their identity as an intersex person and then trying to talk to others in the community about it. Um, they, they viewed Bryn as essentially male bodied, even though the reality was a lot more [00:26:00] complex than that. Um, and then that was sort of enough for them to be like, we don't.. I don't want you here. No, just pretty horrible. Um, uh, Taylor, one of my narrators who worked in the public sector in the 1980s, um, tried to set up a gay, lesbian and bi support network. Um, the lesbians, quote, held a quiet vote with the gay men who weren't really that fussed and they kicked the bisexuals out and made it a gay and lesbian only support group. Taylor said that this hurt, as you might imagine. So again, perhaps unexpectedly, my [00:26:30] narrator's experiences of queer community were not uniform. They were complicated. Um, these.. Um, so, you know, that's not great. Um, however, the narrators that I worked with were much more positive about the interactions with younger queer people today. Oh, and this, this is also not to say, obviously, that, you know, their earlier experiences of a queer community were negative. Um, a lot of them were positive and, um, life affirming. But yeah, they were complex. Um, [00:27:00] so yes, younger queer people today, so.. So, Jules, born in the early 1980s, was only really able to, quote, um, process their own experience of gender, unquote, after listening to their daughter talk about her and her school friend's ideas about gender identity. Um, Kali came across the label non binary in 2017, in part thanks to their mahi supporting young people. How Atif feels like even though they are worlds apart from younger trans people, [00:27:30] they have found that when you, quote, when you actually go into some meaningful purpose for being together, supporting the same kind of causes, you just become whānau. Um, and I'll end on this quote from Jake, because it's really awesome. Um, the thing that makes me feel hopeful is seeing young people just be so playful with gender, you know. Just enjoying themselves and being able to change their mind every 10 seconds. All this stuff that seems to rile people up makes me feel so hopeful. I love that. I just think it's all about just trying to feel the breadth of our actual [00:28:00] physical and spiritual beings. So, yeah, I kind of just wanted to end on that how. For a lot of the people that I talk to, um, kind of sharing and ideas about trans and non binary identity with younger people was kind of a, a form of connection and like whakawhanaungatanga and relationship building. And um, so that is kind of, you know, you maybe kind of think of that as a form of chosen family in itself.[00:28:30] Um, particularly I think because. Uh, my narrators potentially felt a little bit alienated from some people their own age, who maybe are not as understanding about trans identity and non binary identity. Um, yeah, so I think that's. That's all I've got. Hmm.[00:29:00] Yeah. Uh, Kia ora. So, um, my name is Gareth and I've been running Pride NZ, uh, since about 2009. Uh, so I've been audio documenting, uh, uh, events and people around, mainly around the Wellington region, um, since that time. Uh, I, I thought. Um, tonight, I would really like to kind of distill, uh, this, uh, presentation into about six thoughts, um, that kind of speak about Pride NZ, but also, [00:29:30] uh, about some of the people I've met and some of the motivations, what motivates me. Um, so my first thought, uh, was, um, find the joy. And I really try to make a conscious effort every day to find joy in that particular day because, um, there are so many, uh, negative things that kind of come at you. Um, finding the joy is really important. And, uh, this is joyful. This is, um, Pai Kakariki Pride. Um, the world's shortest [00:30:00] pride parade, which is just over. Over that crossing, uh, which is really fantastic. Always have a cake. Um, and my second piece of joy is, uh, the first time when you go to a Pride event or be surrounded by queer people. And, um, this is example, the example is, uh, beer at the Wellington Pride Hekoi this year. My identity is such a big part of who I am and we experience.. There's so much sadness around how we're treated for that, [00:30:30] um, but today we can just experience this joy and be around people that are safe and that are kind and that, um, are really accepting and we can really feel that pride in who we are. So, they're coming towards us now, and it's looking amazing. There's so many different colors, and so many different people. Um, I'm seeing signs that say, We exist, get over it. And I'm seeing rainbow labor, and I'm seeing a lot of different, like, styles, and a lot [00:31:00] of different clothings. I'm seeing labor rights. for strippers. I'm seeing fired up stilettos. I'm seeing people cheering. There's a lot of cheering. I'm seeing disabled and proud Takatapui. I'm seeing, I'm seeing so much rainbows and so many happy people. Um. Yeah, we've got all different ages of people and all different types of people and it's looking really amazing. Um, we've got this gorgeous glitter signs coming towards us and some beautiful young [00:31:30] people. This is just absolutely gorgeous. Everyone looks so happy. I just, uh, yeah, you, you can't, um, replicate that kind of joy of being at a pride event for the first time and to actually be able to capture that and for BEAR to share that on the recording was really amazing. So the He Koi, um, ended up at Parliament and they raised, um, these flags. So there was the bisexual, intersex, pride progress, trans, and rainbow flags were being raised. One of the first times in [00:32:00] New Zealand that all those flags were raised, which was really amazing. It was amazing. Brings me on to my next thought, um, I only have, I have kind of, I don't run, I have parallel thoughts, they kind of come one after the other, um, which is celebrate rainbow leadership, and, uh, leadership can take many forms, and so it's individuals or groups like Te Whanau Whanau Tonight, the Glamourphones, Inside Out, uh, Gender Minorities Aotearoa, but also, um, we find leadership in politicians, and this is one of my favourite images, this [00:32:30] is, uh, MP Jan Logie, I was interviewing her, um, a few years ago, Um, which is really, um, it was a fantastic event. Um, we have been so blessed in the last parliamentary term with so many rainbow, out rainbow MPs. Uh, it has been amazing and I can't imagine that happening, um, anytime soon because quite a few of them are retiring. Um, it has been incredible to have those people at the seat of power and to be advocating [00:33:00] for our communities and to be representing our communities. Uh, this was when the, um, flags were flying and, uh, the audio is from Jangi Pride is a time of celebration and affirmation for people who identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, intersex, akata ua.[00:33:30] And while we have come a long way as a country from when homosexuality and trans people were criminalised, we are still a long way from fully realising our human rights. [00:34:00] For many of us, Our moments of peace and our moments of celebration have been hard fought for. So our celebrations, in fact, are often acts of defiance as well as an expression of joy. And at times they are also So, or too often an act of mourning. So in that same speech, Jan Logie paid tribute to Donna DeMilo, who was, um, a Wellington icon and [00:34:30] had recently passed, uh, just before that speech was given. And this is a photo of Donna. And this brings me to my third thought, which was all about, uh, resilience and respect. Dana, like many growing up in the 1950s and sixties didn't have an easy life. And in this audio clip, Uh, she remembers what it was like in Wellington. If you're different, you don't go near a policeman because they're God unto themselves. You know, there's one here that used to arrest [00:35:00] me nearly every night of the week. You know, take me to the cells and make me dress and undress for every person that worked there. And then to make it his business, I'd fall asleep to wait till the next lot came on and he'd make me, wake me up and make me do it all over again. And there was nothing I could do about it. No matter how I protested, there was nothing I could do about it. He was God. You couldn't, if you, they'd, he'd say, um, get in the car, and I'd say, but I've done nothing wrong. He'd say, get in the car, I'd say I've done nothing [00:35:30] wrong. If you don't get in the car, I'll have you up for, for hampering a policeman in his line of duty. And he'd be abusing me, calling me a shirt lifter, which I didn't even know what it meant, a poo pusher. And calling me names, and does your mother know you're a fucking freak, and, and he'd push my face and, and push it and push it and push it into the window until I said fuck off or pig or something, he'd go, gotcha. And Arrest it, you know, that's what they called you, it. [00:36:00] Arrest the thing. So, Dana, like her contemporaries, Carmen Ruppe and Chrissie Witoku, um, teach us. Not only how to survive, but also to rise above and to actually make it a better day. Um, they offered up opportunities, particularly Chrissy and Carmen, for work. They gave us work and they gave us safe harbors. And we've got a lot to be thankful for, for Dana and Chrissy and [00:36:30] Georgina. My first, uh, my fourth. thought was there is hope for a better tomorrow and this is an image of St. Peter's on Willis Street and there's a lovely, um, rainbow flag and there's a flag flying as well. So hope isn't, uh, just about, uh, being in a religious context, um, but I wanted to highlight that because in the light of the, the, the, the current anti rainbow. Sentiments that are being expressed by [00:37:00] some faith communities in New Zealand. I think it's just appalling. And I wanted to point out that there actually are faith communities in Wellington that are very supportive and very inclusive. So, St. Peter's on Willis Street and St. Andrew's on the Terrace. And this is from 2019. Um, and it's the Glamophones who are, um, rehearsing in St. Andrew's. The audio in this clip is from[00:37:30] 2018. All human beings are valuable, simply because they are human. All human beings are worth loving, simply because they are human. Whether we understand an other or not, whether they are different, they are due respect and the expectation of life. All human beings are due unconditional love. All humankind, all orientations, all genders, [00:38:00] all people are welcome here. So, may it always be. Amen. In looking toward Transgender Day of Remembrance on Wednesday, we remember the transgender people whose lives have been lost to anti transgender violence this year and over many years. We hold in our hearts all those struggling with misunderstanding, [00:38:30] rejection, and abuse for being the way they are, the way they were created, for transitioning into the whole and beautiful selves they're meant to be. One of my favourite images of all time Is this one, uh, this is, uh, shot at Karori, and it's this kind of random time coming together of, uh, we've got the police, we've got a member of parliament, Jan Logie, uh, we've got an official [00:39:00] from the Russian embassy, and we've got Amanda Lahore, and we've got myself, and we're all gathered around in the centre of, uh, Karori Street. Um, it was actually a vigil protesting, uh, Russian persecution of rainbow communities in Chechnya. Uh, this coming together of communities to take action leads me into my fifth thought, which is, um, all about focusing on what binds us together. Sir?[00:39:30] Ah! What's your position here at the embassy? I'm not speak, good speak English. Germany speak? Yeah, good. You from? You from come out here? Here. Violin in Che. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. These are the homosexual on past in D Land. [00:40:00] On there. Vegans, more picture. Please. Why don't you join us? Yes, take Please come take us. Please. Please. Together, please. I won this here. Yes. I think that 100 men are in a [00:40:30] concentration camp in Russia. That's not funny. You're laughing because it's funny. Concentration camps are funny, right? I don't think so. My last, uh, thought I had for this presentation was to, uh, revel in the unexpected. And, uh, a great example of this is when I was interviewing, uh, Jackie Grant. Uh, Jackie Grant's on the, on the [00:41:00] right here. Uh, Jackie was up, uh, from West Coast, uh, at the end of last year. And, uh, in the 1960s, Jackie and Chrissie Wetuku had a restaurant, uh, just opposite Parliament. And, uh, they.. Made the first topless waitress restaurant in Wellington in the 1960s. Uh, it had previously, previously been another restaurant, and that restaurant owner had had a regular booking for a group of prominent religious leaders. So when, uh, Jackie and Chrissy took [00:41:30] over, they kept that booking. Um, and this is what happened. We decided to introduce the topless waitresses on that night when the round table had their thing because we thought If they're going to arrest us, they're going to arrest half of the leading clergy in Wellington That's probably not going to happen. So we rang up the TV people and the Radio station and they're all there behind us. Anyway, these poor guys didn't have a clue what [00:42:00] was about to happen So anyway, I'll call her Mary. Mary had a big tray, with, piled up with meals, and the meal was breast of chicken. We thought breast of chicken was going to be appropriate, and she was holding this tray. She had this tiny little miniskirt, nothing on top, except she had one breast in the middle of.. Those two plates and one breast in the middle of those two plates and up she dropped up the stairs and started putting their meals out with the [00:42:30] straightest face you've ever seen and these poor guys were just, and the, and the cameras and the radio people were right behind them asking them for comment. But we had lots of MPs sneak in. And we had no money when we were doing this either, so what, what used to happen was ten shillings to get in, and we opened at four o'clock, and by about four, five thirty, six o'clock we were finished, we were done, [00:43:00] um, because there were no office workers left in town. And what they used to do, they'd come in and, And they'd raincoat and pull their coats up and they'd come in and they'd pay their ten shillings and go upstairs and sit in a corner. And we only had two things on the menu, a steak or fish. So, someone would come in and they'd order, we loved it when they ordered steak, because they never ate it. So we could recycle a piece of steak about six times during the night. And shop shop next door and order a piece [00:43:30] of fish at half a cent. And I'd run up to the greengrocers just up the road and get a tomato and a lettuce. And we always had a bottle of mayonnaise. And we'd serve the meal, and the meals always looked quite good. But they'd take one bite, the fish was buggered. You couldn't recycle battered fish. But steak, you just trimmed her up and sent it up to the next one. There'd be another little bit out of it. It slides out of it, and you'd send it back up again.[00:44:00] Oh, that's great. Um, and I'll just end on, uh, two, two images which I, I think, uh, um, bring me lots of pride and joy. The first one, Civic Square, a couple months ago, uh, the largest rally for, in support of trans rights in New Zealand, 4, 000 plus people. In that um, Civic Square, which is just amazing, amazing feeling. Um, and the last one, which is the cake leaving. This is Pai Kakariki Pride, [00:44:30] and this is how you exit a pride parade. Thank you. Oh that was so fantastic, thank you guys, I learnt so much and lots of laughs as well, that was awesome. Um, so yeah, I'm gonna, uh, start with some, uh, questions now. I'll ask a couple questions and then if we've got time, uh, we'll open it up to you guys. So get thinking and remember, wait for the microphone. Um, so first I'd just like to know, and [00:45:00] maybe should we just go this way or something, I'd like to know what motivates you to, uh, do this mahi? I guess for me, like I, I'd done my honours dissertation a couple of years ago in, um, on a trans history topic and I was sort of thinking. You know, like where, where could I go from there? What hasn't been looked at yet? And I'm like, huh, I know that Will's doing really amazing stuff on trans history in New Zealand. Um, yeah, Will's thesis is pretty awesome. If anyone hasn't read, I [00:45:30] would highly recommend it. Um, but yeah, and so I was thinking like, is it possible? Could I, could I do a history thesis with the label non binary? Um, and it was really tricky to. Kind of think through that, um, and there is a little bit of archival stuff that I found that was interesting from like the early 20th century, so if anyone wants to talk to me about that, that's also something I feel passionate about, but um, yeah, so that was, it was just kind of like, could I do it, is it there, is it possible, [00:46:00] and that was the, yeah, that was the motivation for me. Uh, I think for me, I mean, I've been in the history heritage business for quite some time, um, but it, it was really an opportunity to bring my professional and personal life into one, in a way. Um, also I've, since I've been doing this work and with a real focus on queer history and heritage, I've become [00:46:30] quite militant about, about, um, the way that, um, I guess knowledge of our history validates our communities today, and it gives us a past, a whakapapa, um, which I think is really, it's immensely valuable when, you know, we're still having to justify our existence, um, unfortunately. Um, so in a way, I, I think of what I do as a bit of [00:47:00] an activist kind of history, and I'm really unapologetic about that. Um, You know, traditionally, you're supposed to be very objective when you're doing this sort of work. But I don't think it works for something like queer history when, you know, I know that you, um, Erin alluded to the fact that it's, you have to dig really deeply to find evidence of our people. Um, because the records are often silent and you need to be very clever and, um, [00:47:30] you need to take risks, I suppose, when you're doing this sort of work. Um, you know, I knew full well that Um, and the heritage space that we had a lot of places and buildings and so on that have these queer histories. I knew that they existed, but we just didn't tell them. Um, and it's a real, it's a, it's a process of delving really deeply. And also drawing on your own, your own knowledge of what queerness is. You're, you're having to.. Um, seize upon clues, I suppose. [00:48:00] Um, and you need to be very careful doing that, that you're not sort of anachronizing and overstating things. Um, but that brings me a lot of personal satisfaction and pleasure that, um, you know, that I'm uncovering these stories of, of our, of our ancestors. Um, I started doing these recordings because, um, I just wanted to find out about my place where, where I fit in. And, [00:48:30] um, I kind of, yeah, just found that I needed to ask people and listen to other people and just see where I kind of fit into society, I guess. Um, cause I, I didn't really have that kind of growing up. Um, I think now I'm more interested in leaving traces for the future. So that, um, in a hundred years time people will be able to hear Bear talking about the pride hikoi and, um, and Jackie talking about, you know, [00:49:00] the doodling. Um, yeah, I think for me that's just those traces that we were here because actually for a lot of queer people they don't necessarily have, um, may not have children to pass things down to. Uh, where do you leave those legacies? Thank you. Um, does anyone from the audience have a question? I think we've got time for a couple. Kia ora koutou. If all three of [00:49:30] you in your wildest dreams, best case scenario, um, what would you have done with the content that you've created and collected and disseminated? What would happen to it? What's the best way? If there were no limits, what's the best way that you can imagine that your, that content would be used? Uh, well, I would, I would love, um, for, um, creative people to [00:50:00] take the work that I do and turn it into stories in whatever medium they have. You know, there are so many fascinating stories in our queer history. And, You know, one, one concern for me in my work is that they are kind of buried in our heritage listings. The information is online for people to read, but how much of that, um, is actually read, I don't know. So, all of us are uncovering these amazing stories, and I would [00:50:30] just love to see, um, people today using it as content and sharing it in whatever way, um, works for them. That was my, that was my thought as well. Um, yeah, I feel like I kind of have like a, um, I quite like graphic design stuff, so I think my idea would be like a really nice sort of like, I don't know, infographic series. Well, not infographic, because it would have to.. [00:51:00] Yeah. Convey the story somehow, but something like that. Um, but it's also kind of interesting thinking about people's stories and where they end up and the fact that social media platforms are privately owned and you know, like if you're posting things to social media, what does that mean and like, how do you hold stories with respect while also making sure that they're accessible? Yeah. Pretty [00:51:30] tricky, but yeah, I'd love to, I don't think I have the Photoshop skills myself, but like, I would love something that looks really visually awesome and like, you know, illustrated really well. And yeah, I would love something like that. It'd be really cool. Thank you. Oh, look, I, I mean, I think we, we're a great representation that everyone comes to history in different ways and actually, um, makes use of the material in different ways and I would just say, look, I would, I would [00:52:00] love lots of people to use the material in lots of different ways and be creative. Uh, for instance, I was doing an interview the other day and somebody was saying that, um, Georgina Byers Prostitution Reform Act, Final speech has been turned into a play and who would have thought? Who would have thought? 30 years ago that the internet would be such a big thing or social media. What's going to happen in the next 30 years? Who knows? I Really favor the idea of democratizing queer [00:52:30] histories so that they are freely available licensed under creative commons or public domain so that people can Um, Respect the histories, but also make use and build on those histories, rather than histories being locked away in production houses or, um, by state archives. Thank you. And that's a good reminder to go to prideNZ. com to, to listen to more of the stories that, that Gareth had. Does anyone else have a question they'd like to ask? That's right, I have some pre [00:53:00] prepared ones. Um, what, um, what advice would you guys give to other people who want to do queer history? Should we start with you, Gareth, maybe? I think I've already answered that one. I'd written that down. Um, yeah, basically, uh, look, I would encourage everyone to um, go out and document in whatever way Uh, and document your histories. And also, um, make sure that state institutions, publicly funded [00:53:30] institutions are archiving our stories, that actually they have a, um, a responsibility to archive, you know, uh, a whole breadth of stories and let's make sure that our stories are in those archives. Um, and in terms of arch, in terms of like creating stuff, you know, whether it's audio recordings, images, wata. Uh, blogging, I, I think there's a whole variety of ways that you can actually represent queer experience, and I think the more the merrier. Um, I really hope [00:54:00] that, um, organizations that are contemporary today, particularly, you know, organizations of younger people, that, I know they're so busy doing their mahi, and, and that's all consuming, but just to think of recording your legacy, Um, you know, it's basically riffing off what you just said, Gareth, that, um, especially when so many of these groups exist in online spaces, like you've alluded to, too, um, how are you going to [00:54:30] record your activities for the future, because, you know, we as historians struggle now, um, using traditional archival sources to find our queer ancestors, um, and I would hate for that to be equally as difficult for future historians because, um, the, the activities are recorded in sort of ephemeral ways or, or thought is not given to, you know, archiving all your work and recording it in some kind of way.[00:55:00] Yeah, I guess the only thing I could think of, and this specifically applies to people who want to do oral history is you've got to make sure it's people centered. Um, I think that was. It's kind of a learning curve for me as someone who doesn't really feel like a people person, if that makes sense. Um, but yeah, it's like that kind of whakawhanaungatanga, like relationship building. It's, it's, um, it's very different from [00:55:30] going into an archive and reading a document. Like you're, yeah, yeah. Just a lot of very specific kind of work that goes into that. Very rewarding, but yeah, it's very different from other kinds of history. So yeah, that's just my thought on that Can we do one more question? Do we have time? Awesome. The last question I'd like to ask you all is what has been the favorite moment that you've had while doing this work? Should we start with Erin? [00:56:00] Yeah, I had definitely I I mean I had some amazing Chats, like I guess on and off the record with my interviewees about gender identity. And it was just like, as a non binary person myself, it was, that was pretty amazing. Um, but yeah, just like little things, like one of my narrators was like, Oh yeah, like I have a kind of interesting relationship to pronouns. Like I don't really have a fixed, like I kind of [00:56:30] use them different ones in different situations. And I was like, Oh, like that really makes sense to me. Yeah. And I guess like, that's, that's a really cool thing. Like you don't, again, when you're like looking in archives and reading books, they don't speak back to you. So that's the, that's the positive side of that is that, you know, you, you know, you get something that sounds transactional, but like, yeah, it's like a, it's a cool thing, um, to be able to like, [00:57:00] yeah, just build friendships and get to know people. Through your work. Yeah, that's cool. Um, well, I can't I can't go past talking to Georgina and Scotty and Mel at the end of 2021. Um, for me, that was just an amazing, affirming and highly entertaining experience. I learned so much. And it really [00:57:30] brought home to me the absolute Just the beautiful connections that we have in our queer communities. And I don't, I know that not all is rosy, at all. Um, and, you know, what you were talking about, Erin, before about some of your interviewees being rejected by lesbian communities. I find that extremely painful, um, as a lesbian. And it's something I really grapple with when I'm researching the history of In my particular [00:58:00] community, there is this really challenging aspect to it that is still present today. Um, so I just want to acknowledge that that is a reality. Um, but nevertheless, I just, I did really feel the love then, and I feel that when I'm reading, you know, reading Georgina's autobiography, reading Carmen's, um, another amazing work is Karen Wilton's Oral Histories. Um, what's the book called? My Body, My Business. [00:58:30] An amazing piece of work and I remember reading that and being struck by how difficult the lives of the people she interviewed were. But how generous and giving and kind they were. You know, that struck me, the manaakitanga, I guess, struck me hugely. It's really, really quite moving. Um, so.. And that, that really helps you to feel part of a community, and it's a community that stretches way back, and obviously I'm a historian, so I [00:59:00] value history a lot. But I really think it's important for our diverse queer communities to have knowledge of their history so that we feel less alone in this world. That, that's definitely how it's impacted upon me anyway. Uh, probably the, the, the most, um, amazing thing that's happened to me with the Pride NZ stuff, uh, was an email I got in 2020, um, so I'd been doing audio documentaries, uh, since the [00:59:30] 1990s, and, uh, back then, there was very little internet and there was certainly no streaming services, so I would do an audio documentary and send it out on CD, compact disc, around the world, um, and so I'd send them to the, the US and things like that. not thinking much of it. In 2020, I got an email from Stephen in Arkansas in the USA, and I think this speaks to just, um, the impacts you have that you don't realize you're having. Um, it's four paragraphs, not too long, just, I'll just read it. Um, I have to admit, [01:00:00] I got very emotional when I found the CDs you sent me in the 1990s. They represent many things to me. I received the CDs from you during a very trying time in my life. I was wrestling to fit into the life of a gay man in the American South. Life had been a rollercoaster for me for years, from bullying in high school, to death threats, to being thrown out of home by my family, and a loss of almost all of my friends to an attempt at suicide. My life was just starting to get on track when I received the CDs from you. I would listen to them on repeat [01:00:30] during my daily commute. The voices calmed me and made me feel like part of a larger community, albeit a community I didn't have access to in Arkansas. I laughed with them and I cried with them. They allowed me to stay in touch with a core part of me that I didn't want to deny anymore. So I guess what I'm trying to say is thank you. I know these audio files were probably just a small moment in your life, but for me, they were a beacon of hope.[01:01:00] Oh, thank you so much, uh, Gareth, Erin, and Kieran. Um, it's been really awesome to have you guys here, and thanks Caleb for organizing this. This concludes the local stories portion of the evening. To you. Yeah, I was just going to do a shout out, um, partly because the work that you're doing kind of links to something that we're trying to do, so, uh, City Gallery is part of a group of organizations called Experience Wellington, and one of the other places that I do some work is [01:01:30] Wellington Museum on the Waterfront. I've got a lovely office in the attic of that building, which is, you know, office in the attic of a museum, dream job. Um, Wellington Museum is the museum of Wellington stories, and we've got a whole lot of curators at that museum actively trying to expand our collection in a number of ways because it doesn't really reflect Wellington as we are. And we have a great project called Recollect, which is, we'll be trying to add things to our collection to kind of diversify our stories and make sure there's better representation. But we also have a couple of programmers based there who do incredible work. [01:02:00] Lani Magnificent, who is our DJ tonight, is one of our programmers at the museum. So she's come in to help me out. Um, as a DJ tonight, but also there's a bunch of programming there that really does focus on our communities. Uh, they've just launched a queer book club, which I think they had their first session a couple months back, so there's one coming up. So please keep an eye on Wellington Museum for some really interesting queer programming coming up, because I know it's one of Lani's passion projects. Um, and.. I'm working with them to kind of weave it through all of our five sites that we have, six, five, we anything's not to pop it and as a museum is [01:02:30] basically owls in Wellington, . That's how I always describe it to people. So we're trying to create this like, uh, annual yearlong queer program. So keep an eye on all the stuff we're doing. Um, and if you do have things that you need to find a home for or stories you wanna share, um, hit up Wellington Museum and we'll see if we can add it to our collection. Cause I would love to see it grow. Um, cuz we're kind of in the midst of a giant reach. of that building itself, so, um, you definitely will have some conversations about that. But, um, yeah, thank you for joining us. [01:03:00] Um, our next thing is, in the East Gallery, I'm gonna talk about our favorite beer in the gallery. Um, but, please join me in thanking everyone for joining us for Local Stories.
This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
Tags