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Well, it's scandalous if there's any New Zealander of a certain age who who doesn't know who Carmen was? Um, he was a transvestite, and it's quite interesting. I happen to know that to be true, because his book suggests that he he was transgendered, that he had an operation. But when I interviewed him, he said, Well, no, actually, he got cold feet and didn't have the operation. So he he retained his male [00:00:30] pulse, although it from all appearances, he became a woman. So it's very interesting. Um, but he became a an extraordinary icon in in Wellington, particularly. He also lived in Auckland and in also for periods in Sydney. And that's where he lived his latter years. Um, and he he was, um well, a person of many parts, Um, he [00:01:00] in in talking about his experiences in his book and in his interview, um, for people interested in being transvestite, um, it really marginalised them in society. And there weren't opportunities to, um to have a regular job or career who wanted to to employ a man dressed as a woman. So, um, he had to make his own way. Um, and, uh, that [00:01:30] began that there were some jobs in in in Auckland. I think he worked in the hospital for a while, um, as an orderly. But, um, the streets, the streets, you had to make it on the streets. Prostitution was really one of the only options for for such people. But, um, by by transforming himself, um, and setting goals, he he was able to, [00:02:00] um, set up Wellington's first club, a nightclub. Employ people, um, and become a sort of cultural centre in Wellington, Visited by by everybody, um, politicians, businessmen, um, and one would say, uh, the straight community loved going to the balcony to be entertained by a Carmen and her girls. Um, and, uh, yes. I think this was sixties, the seventies. [00:02:30] It was really, um, the centre of of sort of, um a a naughty, exciting life of social life for for well, Antonians. And then he he also, uh, set up a coffee bar, um, again, employing people and and and showing a very natural business sense. Being able to do that to, to raise the money and to set it up to [00:03:00] to to do the interior design, to run the show effectively to make money. Um, a little prostitution is still on the side. It was it. It was a very, um, uh, very smart lifestyle and and, as I say on the edge, But friends of, of important and influential people at the same same time, right on the margins of of, um of a a proper, bourgeois, decent [00:03:30] society, but embraced by that society. It was a wonderful kind of mix. Um, so that was that was our common. Hm. And II. I had a little bit of contact in Wellington my early days, Um, visiting the balcony and the coffee shop. I don't know if I ever was introduced or shook his hand, but, um, I picked up a copy of his book. Um, it was, um, [00:04:00] sort of autobiography, but somebody wrote it based on his what he had to tell them. Um, and it's called having a ball. And it really moved me and and amazed me this story of a life. And I'm sure there are many secrets not in that book, but, um, there are There are lots of things in that book which are really astonishing and outrageous of. There are no there are no secrets from this person that this person [00:04:30] tells it all, um, or appears to, um, and I. I was struck by the courage of somebody who was really the I'm sure there were. There were transvestites, you know, on the streets before Carmen. But this was the first one to actually make it into the news and and to kind of make something of their lives. Um, uh, and it struck me that this was somebody [00:05:00] who knew no fear somebody who, um, was their own person. Um, uh, let's say, realised their own desires of who they want to be or to become, even if this was sometimes in the realm of fantasy, like taking the the the name Carmen. And this was because he knew of of Carmen as being this, um [00:05:30] uh, dangerous seductress, this gypsy. And so he saw himself as that in that role and being able to manipulate men and society through through that role. Um uh, and having power over people, I guess. I mean, if if you if you have no power, if you're disenfranchised, if you're marginalised and to look for ways to actually, um, re readjust that balance [00:06:00] and and find ways to function, and he did it very successfully. Was was very, um, respected and honoured. And many people say, Oh, yes, Carmen was my friend. Yes. Can you talk to me a wee bit about, um, I suppose labels and gender, uh, you've mentioned a couple of times referring Carmen to as he rather than she. And also the idea of [00:06:30] transvestite verse, transgender and I. I think for, um, a number of people they would go. Was Carmen just dressing up in women's clothing or car? Did she feel she was female? Oh, II, I think. Definitely. Um, So transgender people talk about this, and and I've recently read, um, Georgina by autobiography as well. Uh, and and she describes [00:07:00] how how, you know, you feel complete when you dress a book. And and I think, um, Carmen also talks about at a certain point saying This is it. This is who I am and never wearing a male attire again, like like to be to be dressed as a woman, to present yourself as a woman. That's that's who you are. Um, uh, I mean, I've read a bit about it, and it it said that um, many, [00:07:30] uh, transverse types are not gay. They they're men who who desire to to to present themselves as women because it releases them from the the pressures of being a man of the expectations of how men should behave. But their sexual incarnations still are heterosexual. But in Carmen's case, she she was gay. She she she liked men. She liked cock. She liked seducing men. Um, [00:08:00] so, yes, she was gay. But, um, I interviewed her, uh, when I was working on this project in the first in the first instance. And, um, it was interesting because her book, uh, finishes in the last chapter in hospital preparing herself for the operation. And so one presumes that that she was transgender, But she told me, actually, I got cold feet. [00:08:30] I never went through with the operation, but to all appearances, of course, she she has these huge breasts. Um, um, her hair was always mountainous. Um, and the way she presented herself was was absolutely as a woman. But it makes one aware that, you know, this whole issue of of gender and gender identification is very complicated. And especially when when one tries to ex express it out of, uh, normal [00:09:00] male female, um, lots of problems, lots of anguish, lots of issues. And and I think I mean, Carmen said that. And I've read this in of other instances, you know, having the the operation. It's a kind of step into the unknown because it it it it mightn't be very successful, you know? And you might end up all your life as a kind of, um, mutilated person feeling that you've actually you neither neither one or the other. And, uh, [00:09:30] so it's it's dangerous and difficult. And I think nowadays, I think even in Carmen's Day, there was, um, counselling to to to make sure that you understood where you were going and the dangers It was un unknown. Really? The results. Do you think Carmen would actually label herself in any way, Or did it just like she was just She was just Carmen. So she she, uh, given a name, of course, was Trevor and [00:10:00] I. I made some reference to her as Trevor, and she's never never known by that name again. And and even as a, uh, she wanted to be just Carmen, you know that this this um, personification of the the imaginary car that she had in her mind. Can you describe for me what it was like going to the balcony? Oh, this is long time ago. And, [00:10:30] um, I think the person who took me was Max Cryer. So that puts us into that. That's seen in a way, because Max is another extraordinary person, Um, of many, many talents. Um, in many circles of friends, one would say, um, it was upstairs, as I remember, and and of course, we weren't supposed to have alcohol, But, um, it was sort of under the table and and as Max [00:11:00] saying, You know, you have to experience this and, um, Carmen herself, saying that the people that went there were were often, uh, people from all levels of so well one say, upper levels of society. Um, who wanted a sort of a naughty night, um, to be entertained and, um uh, yes, to to have a sort of naughty experience. Um, but I think most [00:11:30] people are more, um, people will remember the the coffee shop. Uh, because that it was open all hours and it had all comers. And I think Carmen herself saw, especially the coffee shop, as a place where, um, she could employ, uh, transgender people and transvestites and and so on, Um and also that it was open all hours all through the night [00:12:00] so that, um, it it was a a sort of refuge for for people of the night to go and and relax and just feel comfortable. Really? So, uh, yes. Um, incredible public service, both both these institutions that she ran is, um and II, I think she she thought of it like that. And and many people experience like that as a as a as a place [00:12:30] place to go for to be. But also, uh, the the the the fringe people. Um, transgender people where they where they were they they knew that they had friends. At that time in the seventies. Were you out? Um, II, I guess I was always out in a sense. To To to friends. Family was a different matter. Um, and I, I suppose, [00:13:00] uh I mean, we we imagine my generation imagines that for young people today, it's a simple matter to be out, you know? But I'm sure every everybody's life is is different. Coming to terms with with sexual preferences and identity. Um, and I'm sure for some young people today, it's also traumatic. Um, I think quite early I I knew, but it was difficult, but II I kept [00:13:30] it to myself. I shared it with friends and I looked for lovers. Um, but, um, what struck me when reading Carmen's book? Is that the fearlessness of it? That that we especially in a in in generations when it was illegal, to to indulge in in sex with the same gender? Um, of course, one had to be secretive. It was very exciting, of course. And it made the the [00:14:00] chase and the the triumph even more delicious. But, um, but the fact is that one could be entrapped. One could go to prison. And III I met people who had had, um, a therapy. Um, I don't know if it had been divorced. Maybe it was a choice, You know, a version therapy, you know, making you vomited the thought of of of having sex with your own kind or, um, shock treatment. I mean, these things happened in those days. Um, [00:14:30] so this is the world that that Carmen grew up and and look what she did. She said I'm here and I'm me and like it or lump it and and totally, uh uh, Brazen. Fearless. She she had run ins with the law, but she teased the law, you know? And she had friends there. Um um uh, she she played she she was fearless. And and that seems to me [00:15:00] the lesson that we learned from her. I mean, obviously about sexual matters, but about anything in life. Um, that, you know, we've got one life, and the worst thing we can do is is to have fears and anxieties that we have to embrace life and be who we are. Um, And if if we are truthful and honest in that sense as she was, the chances are we're going to we're going to get away with it. It's by trying. It's by being [00:15:30] difficult and and fearful that we sometimes attract uh, prejudice. Um, danger. And we certainly, uh, uh distort our own personalities by by being fenced in by fears. Where do you think that fearlessness comes from? With Carmen II. I don't know I. I don't know. It's it's maybe because, uh, if you want to get in to trans. [00:16:00] It's Yeah, it's public. Well, I, I guess some. I guess there are many transvestites who dress up at home and and and have fun at home and then put the costumes away before they go out. But to go out in public as a transvestite that that's a very public statement. There's nothing private secret. And and so you have to be ready for insults for, uh, for violence, [00:16:30] maybe for contempt, uh, for for all kinds of attitudes and also, um, loneliness. Potentially, because your friends might be only other transvestites or transgender people. Um, there are so many people in society who want to say, Oh, I'm my my I have a good friend. I invite to dinner frequently and we share such a lot as being a a transgender [00:17:00] person. It's It's some, even in our own minds, you know, in in in the 21st century, people have fear, um, of of these people, these marginal people Mm II, I would say also, if we talk about racism in in our society, um, it's still there. And any anybody with a a different [00:17:30] colour of skin will, Will, will will say yes. Yes, it's there. Whether you're yellow or brown or black, it's there in society and and no, undoubtedly, Uh, uh, Carmen was was confronting that in society. Um, so she was just is out in every way and challenging society. So what impact did things like the balcony have on you when [00:18:00] you went there? Well, II I as I say, I I'm It was a long time ago. It'd probably be sixties, seventies, seventies. Maybe so. And I only went a few times, so I can't remember. Actually, I can't remember. But, um, but looking back, I'm I'm aware of, um uh, it's, uh, importance within the kind [00:18:30] of social cultural life of Wellington. And it was, you know, fifties sixties. Terrible, terribly conservative years, no sort of nightlife except the balcony. So, um what? What a what a thing to do to create this. This haven where, Where people could be entertained and titivated and yeah, you mentioned [00:19:00] earlier that you had interviewed Carmen. Can you tell me how that interview came about? Oh, that this was I had been commissioned by the Royal New Zealand Ballet along with a choreographer and a designer to, uh um, uh create a ballet which intertwined the life of our Carmen with the Carmen of B's opera. So that was a It was a very, uh, interesting, [00:19:30] uh, concept. Um, and I'm not sure, actually, I might be misleading you about this. Uh uh. It may have been a later date that I interviewed Carmen, but I was I was working on this project which has undergone various transformations, and I thought I needed to find out first hand, um, about [00:20:00] the music that she liked her musical tastes and perhaps ask some questions about her life that that weren't clear from the book and and just get to know her and and and have her confidence that, um that I wasn't, um, exploiting her without without her consent. Um, So, um, uh, I went to Sydney, and, uh, we spent an hour and a half together, and I looked at her record collection. I asked her about her musical tastes [00:20:30] and her exploits and so on. And, um, we became friends. We didn't meet so often, but she would occasionally send me a postcard or a little note or invite me if she was visiting new Zealand to to to join a social event or something. Um, so, yes, I can say she became my friend a a After that, we got to know each other. Um, can you describe what that meeting was like and and and in particular what? What? What? What her room was like? Yes, [00:21:00] Yes. No, it was fascinating. She she she lived in kings cross in a little room. Um, but it was only a bed sit, really. But I took some photos that was jammed full of brick and brick, the kitt kind And, um uh, there was a sort of portrait of her, and there was a recording of calm in the opera. And I looked through other records that the LP S that she had collected and liked talked about music that she used when [00:21:30] she performed. Um, and that's that kind of thing. So and And she of course, she must have taken time A you know, an hour or two to prepare herself whenever she had a guest who walked out into the world because, um, you know, the the make up the the dress, Um, and the earrings, uh, the the poise. [00:22:00] Um, so She was certainly, um, well presented to To to accept me and in her in her. And I think she she when she went outside, she would never be seen anything except turned out perfectly. Yes. Can you describe her personality? Yes. Yes. Um, um uh, she was totally honest and [00:22:30] and outrageous. If you if you wanted to her to be outrageous, she would be outrageous. Um, she wasn't, um if we compare with Georgina Baer, for instance, Georginia is is very articulate, very highly intelligent, and this is not common. She she she she wasn't well educated, she But, I mean, she she could she could talk when necessary, but, um, no, she was very ordinary in that sense. Um [00:23:00] um I, I think it's it's not her. All her book is great, but but somebody shadow wrote it. So it's it's language is racy and and and rich, but that that wasn't her. Really. Um she expressed herself through her dress, the way she moved and and operated, is and and and what she accomplished in her life. Hm. And and also, [00:23:30] uh, because she was a she became a role model, of course, for for many that followed, um, as a as a drag queen. Um um, And out there a transverse side. What was she like to interview? Oh, utterly charming. Of course. She she, um yes. No, no, she was She was flattered. Um, but she was very generous. And, um, she may have given me [00:24:00] some cookies and some cup of tea. I think stronger. We we talked. We talked about, um Her sexual preference is the kind of man she she liked, and and and the difference between the different races of men, you know, it strikes me that she could relate to people on so many different levels and at so many different stratas of society. Yes, yes. Oh, absolutely. And it was [00:24:30] her. Her accomplishments, you know, um, the the nightclub and the the coffee. But I think she I might have this wrong, but I think she had a a sort of little junk shop at some stage as well. Well, let's say, um, antique shop. Um uh, so she had a a AAA natural business sense, and she raised money when when she had to. And that might have been, you know, visiting the bank. Or it might be going back onto the streets. You know, if [00:25:00] if she needed money, well, she had to find ways to get it. So, um uh uh, yes, she she made her way in this world in whatever way she could, and she She was very smart. So I think people, um, respected that, and certainly her courage to be herself and to and to run a business, a business. And, you know, there are times in in the coffee lounge when she [00:25:30] had drunk men, young men, you know, that she had to deal with, you know, and she would deal with them. She had shady types. Um, the law was sort of voice hovering it it it could be there to help, but it could also be there to hinder or exploit or be a problem. So, you know, she managed all these things, you know, by herself. That's that's really smart. So she she had these natural abilities, and it wasn't, you know. [00:26:00] Um, yeah, a real original. How did you find, uh, the difference between say, come and the, um, icon slash Um, somebody that's been a bit mythologized to come. And the real person? Yes. Well, in some ways. When we asked her, I asked her why she went to Sydney. And, of course, the rumour was that she had, uh, too [00:26:30] much goss on too many important people in Wellington that people would like her to leave. Or maybe it was a problem with taxation, or I don't know what. Anyway, these were all nice rumours that enhanced her reputation. Um, but in Sydney, um, uh, life was reasonably comfortable, I suppose. But, I mean, she in her later years in her in her younger years, I think [00:27:00] she was a very beautiful, uh, drag queen. And her pictures as a as a young man are really striking strikingly beautiful. But, you know, age takes its toll. And, uh, in a way, she did. She didn't seem to fight this or be ashamed of it. She always had her her enormous bosoms to boast. And so she be in in some sense, [00:27:30] became a caricature but embraced that and flaunted that and and and never stopped saying this is who I am, like it or lump it. So I she she had dignity in that. In that sense, um, what one would have wished perhaps that she had found a, um, AAA man who could have retired her in in in in some greater degree of luxury and that she would might have appreciated. [00:28:00] But no, she lived in this small, um, flat. She survived, but I think she still walked the streets. And maybe she Maybe it was her vanity. I think she still looked to do tricks. She offered the best blow job available. Um, so maybe maybe she still enjoyed that lifestyle, but, um uh, she was certainly not a rich person. Um, [00:28:30] but but she maintained her dignity. Always. Um Mm. Can you recall what year that interview took place? Well, I should tell you a bit of the the history of the project, because maybe that tells us the date that I interviewed uh, her, um, the project began. The concept began in in, uh, 1991 Uh, with this, uh, concept [00:29:00] for a ballet combining B J's Carmen and the Life of Carmen. But within a couple of years, the ballet company was near bankruptcy, and, you know, um, a risky project like this had to be canned. Um, Then we had a new director of the ballet company in 1998 and I went to him and said, Well, look, I had this commission all these years ago. How about it? But, um, [00:29:30] he said, No, that's not on my agenda. So it was canned again. Um, then, um, I. I revise my view of it as as a concert piece with orchestra and a dancer and and maybe, um, some singers. So it's it's a sort of music theatre, but But in a concert, um, circumstance. And, [00:30:00] um, it was offered to the, um, International Festival in Wellington in 1998 and it was turned down. I think they considered it, and it was turned out. And then in 1999 I, I went to the symphony orchestra as a project for the millennium that they seemed to be that we could celebrate our colourful, multicultural, let's say, um, [00:30:30] culture in, In, in in the millennium, it could be a good and and they like the idea. So, um, they they thought it was a good project for the millennium. So it was going to be a millennium project, and, uh, they accepted the concept. Um, and it was going to be formed in 2000 or 2001 and, um uh, again, it fell over and they said, Well, a dancer, that's [00:31:00] really complicated. And it looks to be more expensive here. You've got all these singers, and I was wanting to have a a Spanish singer and a and a French singer, Uh, and a Maori singer. So it looked too expensive for them. And it it, um it fell over. But I said, Look, you agreed to this I. I also wanted to have a guitar soloist. Um, as as an instagram, I mean, Spanish, [00:31:30] Carmen, Spanish guitar and I and I thought, Well, if we look at the dancers that that Carmen danced as a cabaret artist um, these these are perfect for recreating these dances would like be nice to have a dancer, But if not that, um, make it a a sort of guitar concerto. And the the guitar itself transforms itself, um, into a Spanish guitar and then into a Hawaiian guitar and then into [00:32:00] a an African instrument, uh, representing the dancers, that the various dances that Carmen talked about that she had performed. So they accepted this idea as a concert piece and and the Carmen dances were performed in concert. Um oh, in 2002. So that part of it, um, existed. And I think in preparation for that, maybe in the year 2000. Maybe that's when I, [00:32:30] um, uh interviewed Carmen in preparation for that work. So prior to the 2002 car dances, why do you think those other occasions were either turned down or just not accepted for the for the ballet company? I mean, it was a crisis when the when the proposed performance was withdrawn. So, you know, that's, you know, it's if if if the whole company is going to disappear, that one [00:33:00] feels sympathy for them And if I'm responsible And of course it it was a it was, um, a a risky project for a, um, a ballet company after all. Um, it's not first of all a a modern dance company. It's a ballet company. So it was kind of a risky concept, and and then international festival. Well, again, um, um uh, I don't know, [00:33:30] uh, again that they're always looking at budgets, and my concept was to have a specific counter tennder from France, a specific, very famous flamenco singer from Spain. Um, so you know this These are quite expensive. And, um, it's all un unknown quantities, especially festivals. They like to buy packages, even if it's a bit expensive. They don't have to invest anything in the [00:34:00] production. It's a package they buy. And this wasn't going to be such a thing, so it it was always risky. Might still be risky, but well, if we come up to the prison, you know, God bless the a. PO Auckland Philharmonia for saying yes, perhaps not knowing what they're getting into, but for saying yes. So that's that's the dream. Comes a dream come true when [00:34:30] you've got a project spanning so many years and kind of constantly in flux and constantly changing for you. Is that a frustration, or is it something that's actually quite exciting? Because I mean, the the ideas keep changing and morphing and both both, um, frustrating when when you got what seems to be a great idea and somebody says, Well, maybe, and then they say no. So you have to put it aside, Um, but at the same time, it's like [00:35:00] a fruit cake with brandy or something that actually may be. The taste improves with age and and the concept for me transforming itself became stronger and stronger. And, you know, the first, the second concept of using a Flamingo singer, and and I've explored this in in greater depth, and actually, it could never have worked. I think, um, I would have had to compromise big time. Um, because [00:35:30] flamenco was really such a culture unto itself. Um, I was inspired by the Sara film Carmen and, uh, the fact that that was a flamenco I version of the B A. But then I went to Spain and I said, Well, who is this fantastic singer that so inspired me? And they said, Oh, she's a pop singer. She's not a flamenco singer, She's she's a a pop artist, [00:36:00] and I thought, Oh, well, I. I want a real flamenco singer. But actually O, obviously, Sara, the the the filmmaker found the same thing that he couldn't get, um, a flamenco singer to sing the, um, the fire. He had to go to find another kind of singer that could create a sort of faux flamenco vocal vocal sound. So I, I think, um, fates were suggesting [00:36:30] that, um, be patient. Be patient. It will be better. In the end, How was the 2002 version of common and dancers received? Um a, um a lukewarm I, I think, because it's all, um, it it's exploring kitsch and and also a transcription from various cultures. So it's it's all a bit kitschy. And, um, I, um John Button, [00:37:00] who is usually very supportive, uh, was a bit lukewarm, uh, in his review. And then there was another review by Rob McCoy. Unpublished was which was very scathing, And, uh and so I. I sort of thought, Oh, well, maybe this is a This is a This is a burst balloon, this piece. So I hadn't paid much attention, but I thought, Well, it's there, and I'll revisit [00:37:30] it. I'll I'll, maybe the orchestrations. Something has to be done with the orchestration. Or maybe it needs some cutting or maybe tweaking. So I've I've laid it aside, And it was only two days ago that I had a real good listen to it again, Um, with the dancer, the prospective dancer who's going to dance. The dancers and I listened and with the the the person who's going to direct, and I listened to it again, and I thought, Actually, it's not bad at all. II. I might [00:38:00] rescore a bit to to to help the guitars because the Guitar Guitar Concerto is always a problem because the guitar is such a soft instrument and and load register. So, um, it's it's quite a challenge musically, you know, to to feature this soft instrument. So I I might I might yet reconsider some of the scoring. But actually, um, in terms of the musical material, I think it's rather rather clever. And I think when I I as I say, [00:38:30] it's all it's all really based on on the concept of kitsch. And, uh, once we have a dancer there, then I think it will make sense. And that's what I'm I. I. I'm having listened to it with the director and the dancer. I think it's going to work in a way it didn't work in in in just in pure concert. So I'm I'm this this workshop and meeting I had two days ago. It it really inspired [00:39:00] me, and I think this is going to be a sensational show in 2002 sitting in the audience when you were listening to the work, Were you hearing the work as it was, or were you imagining what it could be? Well, these were simply the dancers, and and I should explain there are five dances. Um, um based on roles that Carmen danced in her cabaret [00:39:30] or in in Round About in Sydney. She danced, um, and three of the dancers, she definitely danced. And that was the role of Carmen herself. Um, the role of Hawaiian hula, Uh, and the role of, um, African snake dance. She she owns snakes in Sydney and danced with these snakes. Um, now the two other roles. I think she probably never danced, but she mentioned these role [00:40:00] models, and one is Salome Salomi. And, uh, we will know that this is the person who is responsible for the death of of, um, John the Baptist, because she danced this irresistible and irresistibly seductive dance for Herod. Um, and he offered her any prize, uh, for for the dance. And she said, I want the head of John the Baptist. So if we if we say AAA fan, [00:40:30] this is perhaps the most dangerous and powerful woman who can demand the death of a man just from her dance. Um, so obviously Carmen knew that this was a very powerful woman, and the other one was, uh and, uh, this is a much more mysterious figure. Historically, we know her to be a, um uh, a woman who was executed as a spy. Um, but she was [00:41:00] a was a quarter moved in in high high social circles in France and in Holland. She and she was Belgian born, lived in Indonesia for for some years. And from that, um uh, so Indonesian dance and, uh, sort of, um, created, uh, her her, um uh, seductive dance, um, inspired by Indonesian dance and and became [00:41:30] a, um a a figure of circumstance. And And one would say, um, a controversy in in the salons of of Paris and attracted many, uh, patrons. Um, uh, so in a way, uh uh, not so dissimilar from our Carmen, Um, but finally, uh, was executed as a spy, But historically, now they think that she probably gave no secrets to [00:42:00] anybody, whether whether to the the Germans or to the French or anybody. There were no secrets there that worth knowing. But she was the victim of of, um of the politics of the time. Also, Ely, a very courageous woman and living from her wits, obviously, like our Carmen and, um, uh, brave to the end. Refused to have a blindfold, um, for her execution. So [00:42:30] a courageous person, not transvestite, one would say, but a courageous role model for people who have to make their own way. She she left her husband. It was an unsatisfactory marriage. And she had been living in in style and and, you know, divorced women in those days. What did they do? They had to make their way. And she did, by being a becoming an exotic dancer. [00:43:00] So this is the the final dance that that's in, um, the, uh, the dances of Carmen. Um, I would say so. I, I thought, Well, maybe I can make this work by degrees. So that's why I I was happy to make those dances for that occasion. And I have to say also, I had a commission from the New Zealand String Quartet and I thought, Well, what will I write about? Well, I'll make it related to the Carmen Project. [00:43:30] So I researched, Say, which is AAA religious song sung during Holy Week in in Andalusia. And, uh, it's it's very powerful. It's, uh, to religious texts, Um uh, sung by a solo singer and, uh, and they process. I've never been there. I'd like to go, but I've heard about it, heard many stories [00:44:00] of people who have seen it. Uh, there's a band that moves through the streets and they play this kind of military music, and then they stop and then someone sings a and it's it's it's, uh, it's religious, but they the texts are yes, um, religious. And the melodies are It's a kind of AAA source, one of the sources they say for flamenco. It's very Middle Eastern [00:44:30] and a very raw sound. So I thought, Well, rather than flamenco, maybe I'll look to say for um um, inspiration. So I transcribed some say IIII. I had difficult finding recordings, but I visited a friend in in New York once and and found a whole LP of say So I copied that took, took it home and found some, um, material that I transcribed and I wrote this string quartet called [00:45:00] and um uh, Two of the movements are transcriptions of, say, one movement is a It is a, um, a transcription from a recording of Spanish song by Victoria de los Angeles. And she sourced it from a, I think, 1/13 century, uh, religious, um, cycle, um, and its solo voice. [00:45:30] And it's just beautiful. She sings it beautifully. So it's It's, uh, I. I've since found another version, but but she sings it beautiful. I transcribe that, and I also went to to the Spanish song Book of Hugo Wolf. And this is interesting because the poems are translated from Spanish folk poetry, and many of them are religious. And so it's this extraordinary sort of transmutation from folk [00:46:00] poetry to art poetry. Um and then I'm sure both had in mind Spanish music as many, um, sort of European middle European composers, especially French composers, Russian, even German composers writing Spanish music inspired by this culture which lay in the South, you know, Russian, [00:46:30] Russian composers writing Spanish music, you know, thinking of the warmth of that of of that land and the passion of that culture, something they wanted to capture, something they're inspired by, and it said that the greatest Spanish music was written by Frenchmen. Um, so he was. He was a German, a depressed German writing, a whole cycle of wonderful songs using Spanish folk [00:47:00] poetry translated into German. So I took one of one of the songs, and it's it's this religious song, um, about Jesus and turning it back into a cider to taking it back into a a folk style that that might have been where the poem came from in the first place. So I I took the melody and change [00:47:30] it back. So it's like taking something back to its culture. And, um so so I When I've been making these new versions of of texts, I I've already sort of done an exercise in in the for the musical material already in this string quartet I wrote. So again it was kind of a an exercise for the final work. So it's I've been working at it all these years in in various ways, and and I have to say also the concept for the, [00:48:00] um, the dancers is kind of trying to take things from, uh uh, um and and civilised a Western view of these cultures. like African lounge music. You know that of, um, um, Arabic music. Well, I got Strauss, so I stole [00:48:30] the dance, but that that was his view of belly dancing. And then I took it back to actual belly dancing. So I transcribed, um, sort of things from the culture and kind of married them with an art view of that culture. So it's, um uh, yes, it's to do with transformation. Um, as Carmen transformed herself into Carmen and then through her in her dances to other dangerous, powerful [00:49:00] women. Um, and the guitar transforms itself, um, to to other plucked instruments from other cultures. So, yes, the the whole thing becomes, uh, uh, transformative. I hope so. What? People might hear kit, but hopefully they they understand that there's a serious intention there. Did Carmen ever hear the car [00:49:30] dances from 2002 or the the the latest String quartet? Yes, indeed. She she was the guest of honour. Bless the NZS OS heart. Well, it was kind of marketing thing, as well as just an airfare from Sydney, But she was the guest of honour. She arrived at Wellington Airport, met by a big limousine stepped in and put up at a hotel taken out to dinner by the CEO and the the chairman of the board and guest of honour at the performance. [00:50:00] Um, and the performance ended. Um uh, the last dance not danced, of course. But the last dance dance unravels if people sort of lose their places and the whole orchestral fabric disintegrates and it's the first violin it who? It appears that his cell phone is going off. So everything stops and he pulls up the cell phone and gives it to the [00:50:30] conductor. And the conductor says, Hello? Hello? Oh, is that you? Carmen? Carmen is up in the balcony and and the conductor said, Did you like it? And he calls out, Yes, that's great. So, um, was integrated into the performance and it was an It was a beautiful sort of theatrical conclusion. And it would be it would have been great if we'd been able to do [00:51:00] that again at this upcoming performance. But sadly, the our hero heroine, um, passed away about six months ago or something. So, um, we have to think of another way to deal with the conclusion. Um, the the string quartet I. I think it would be too far removed from, uh uh, her and And II. I have talked some more about what the songs in this in this, uh, show are about, because [00:51:30] they they're taking the the metaphor of of transformation on into a new level. Really? What impact did Carmen's death have on on yourself and also this new work? Um well, um well, we all die. Um, and she was older than she ever admitted. Um, uh, so [00:52:00] I mean, it's it's yet another person reaching their conclusion that that's that's all just a sadness, because, um, it would have been wonderful to to to welcome her to Auckland for the show and to say, Well, Carmen, this is what I had in mind all along. And as you see, the dancers dance the the car dancers are intended to be a dance, and she would have liked very much the dance that we have. And it's a Maori boy who who honours her, totally so it it and and we we want to make [00:52:30] sure there's there's plenty of drag queens among the audience, you know, to make a celebration of of, of who she is and her life. Um, but we will do that anyway, in in her absence and use the occasion to to honour her in In her absence after her death I I noticed that there seemed to be a wee bit of tension between various either you know, friends or relatives or the wider LGBT community [00:53:00] in terms of ownership of Carmen that she has a legacy that that people want to hold on to or want to frame in different ways. Did that impact on on what you were doing? Um, no, no, I'm I'm not really part of that. Um, but I did have a call or some communication from Australia. And, of course, there's a big community there that that honour her. And she she she lived, lived in Sydney two occasions, I think and died. There was was was a, uh uh a celebrity in the cross. [00:53:30] And in Sydney, I don't know about wider Australia, but certainly she was a very, um she was a figure of import in in a big city, which Sydney certainly is. She she had, um, very touching stories. Also, about, um, having doing guest appearances, charity events where she would, um, she would perform again on stage, uh, for, [00:54:00] uh, to raise money to bury, uh um, some Kiwi boys who died. Uh, presumably, um, Dr Greens died of AIDS in Sydney. So she she was involved in all of that circle as well and and really continuing her her work in, in, in New Zealand when she she employed all these people and and, you know, gave them advice and and, um, you know, helped keep their [00:54:30] lives in order. So, um, uh, you know, there are many, many people who would recognise that and honour her for those things. But between Australia and New Zealand, I could see this tension because this person in Australia was saying, Well, we are building up an archive, and we'd like to perhaps make a film, and and I and I sort of said, Oh, well, look, now, look here. She was a kiwi, you know, but But I think that's sensational that that both countries want to own her. But I'm not involved [00:55:00] in all that politics. So to the work now. And it will be performed in 2013, I think on the eighth of March can you describe for me? Uh, where the name comes from? Songs and Dances of desire And, uh, What the work is now? Yes, there, there. There's a lot of, uh, uh singing in it. There are three singers, and they they play different roles. In a sense, [00:55:30] the dancers are are sort of campy, uh, and sexy entertainment. And I hope people are, um, entertained may be a little shocked. Surprised titivated Uh uh, by this and from the musical point of view, the the equivalent of this are four arias from B that I've re orchestrated. So I've tried to make them my own, in a sense, um, and the singer is a counter tenor. So it's a It's a man [00:56:00] with a woman's voice. So it's a kind of E equivalent of of the of transvestism. Um, and, uh, uh, have this marvellous Chinese counter tennder sort of. In the ideal world, it would be a French counter tenor singing in French, but he he's a Chinese counter sing tenor singing. And this represents Carmen, the figure that the Carmen the dancer, perhaps wanted to become because Carmen had [00:56:30] had had seen the opera and and it and thought, Yes, yes, that's me. Um, but then there's a whole other level here, and this is just my imagination of thinking. What? What? Why does a man want to become a woman? Of course, every Trans place I would have their own transgender person would have their their own answer their own reasons. But I My interpretation was that, um [00:57:00] a man recognises that women have certain powers Uh, that, uh, men don't have. And by becoming a woman or transforming oneself in a woman, one might have access to those powers. Well, the obvious thing is, um, um giving birth. Well, no, man, unfortunately, can never become a woman to that degree. Um uh, but the the powers [00:57:30] of seduction that the the more, um, subtle powers, uh, that women have and and it it it exists in the home. I think you know that. That men will say, Well, you know, in in the home my wife, she's the one. You know, that that runs things I can't. You know, I don't. So but But also in in sexual relationships. Women. Uh, [00:58:00] yes. Seduce, maybe. And oh, So I What I did was I. I went to an anthology of women writers and, um, chose poetry expressing the the female state this what What women think about themselves in the world and the poems themselves that I chose [00:58:30] are dark, and most of them say, um oh, the the the most extraordinary poem at the end, you know, luck. Well, we all like to have luck. I mean, good fortune. We all like to be lucky, but the real lessons of life is in pain. Give me pain. Not like pain. So it's It's a real knockout. Um, so, you know, maybe maybe this is what childbirth is. Um, but it's the the the poet the [00:59:00] poets represented, uh, by by my choice, tend to be women who from Russian, Swedish, uh, South American poets who have suffered, um, and one would say that the Carmen suffered. I mean, maybe externally. One looks at her life and says, Well, she she made she did well and she seemed to have fun on the way, But to actually come to [00:59:30] terms with yourself. Your sexuality, how to make your way in the world, I think is is a struggle is undeniably struggle. And, uh, how much suffering or lone? Certainly loneliness. You know, if if you don't have, like people, um, or good friends or support if you're on your own, That's, um, that that must, uh, involve suffering of some kind. [01:00:00] So, um, these, uh, songs I'm setting and the the languages I've chosen are Maori and Spanish. Uh, and, um, that that that seemed obvious. This is a Maori boy wanted to become a Spanish gypsy. Um so the poems that were in Russian that have gone into Mali or they were in Swedish and they've [01:00:30] gone into Spanish so through English. So maybe, you know, purists will say that it's not real poem, but the sentiment is there. And, uh and I wanted the sounds of those languages and the sounds of those cultures. Maori. So the Maori singer, she's she's not a professional singer. She sings like from the Culture and the Spanish singer. I was looking for a Spanish [01:01:00] singer whose first language was Spanish, but I've compromised, and I've found somebody whose second language is Spanish. So they're singing with conviction. They're singing in these languages, knowing what they're singing about, and they're singing about, uh, these special powers of women and many of these powers are dark. Um uh, as experiencing pain or exerting power [01:01:30] in secret ways, like casting a spell. So I think we sort of echoing witchcraft. And, you know, we we know the history of that and how women were victimised in the past for what was perceived as as as magic. But it was probably women having knowledge and experience, um, which, which made me afraid. [01:02:00] So that's that's the piece. So II I for me it it will work because everything is there. We have, uh, kitsch entertainment, Sexy, naughty. And we have darkness and and, uh, power and things that will frighten people. So it should be a total, um, [01:02:30] cathartic experience and the Greek tradition of Greek drama. I hope I'm wondering, uh, when you're looking at someone who assumes new personas if and and creating a work around that does that also mean that you question your own persona and your own identity, and and and you know how how you fit into the world? Um [01:03:00] um uh, well, uh, yes, yes and no. I mean, I'm I'm gay, but I never had any inclinations to to explore transvestism, but to come back to this thing about fearlessness. We all have naughty secrets, which we don't talk about. Um, and we also have fears about, uh, how we behave about not [01:03:30] speaking the truth for whatever reason. And that reason very often is fear of the censure of others. Um, and, uh, So this is something that carmen teaches us that we should overcome? I would say so, Um, um, yeah, that That's why I was so inspired by reading the book to say this is somebody who, you know, had [01:04:00] no no secrets, um, about who they were or what they thought what they wanted to do, how they wanted to behave. Yeah. I mean, you know, tripping over. You know, we we we we if you trip over in the street, you kind of you think you you get up embarrassed and and your dignity is dented for a moment and and even [01:04:30] something as simple as that II I Now I get up and think Oh, what a fool. You know, of course I'm a fool. Whatever. People thought, I'm a fool. You know, I, I, uh Yeah, it's just it's just to face up to who you are and and the secrets that you have that there's nothing worth keeping a secret. Really? Do you think that's become clearer since [01:05:00] your your recent health issues? 000, Well, um oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I. I remember, Uh, uh, Michael and he he had health issues like, 25 years ago, and he survived it all. But, uh, I asked him about this and he said, Well, um, the the thing, I sort of woke up to that, um I [01:05:30] have to prioritise. I have to look for things that are, uh, are important to me and do them and not be burdened by the expectations of other people that if I'm expected to do this or that or this or that, and if it's not important to me, then maybe these other things can be discarded. Um, you know that I I've only got one life, so I better get on with the things that I see are important to me. So, um uh, probably I feel [01:06:00] a bit that way. And But, you know, at my age, I'm lucky to be here, you know, as seeing in a new year. That's true. Uh, but on the other hand Oh, I'm reading, um, um, letters of various composers. And we we know that, uh, Bui died before his time from cancer. And, uh, I didn't know that. Um, uh, Pacini died of throat cancer. So, uh, and and then we take examples of people [01:06:30] like Schubert and Mozart and, you know, hardly hitting 30. So you know, if if if people are, you know, in into their late sixties, going on seventies, everything's a bonus, we'd rather rather not leave just now. But, um uh, you know, Well, 11 would say that, um uh, confronting mortality is something we should do. Oh, well, that's [01:07:00] fearlessness. You know, the inevitability of death, which is something we don't talk about or don't want to talk about and which we like to postpone. And then we're shocked when a young person dies and and think, you know, that's so unjust. And of course, it's unjust. But of course, it's everybody's destiny. Um, so we have to face that, um so I. I considered myself a very lucky person to be here, and I celebrate that. And what did [01:07:30] I hear? Everything past 65 is a bonus, but my father lived to 100 and three. So I've I've got a I've got a and and his brother 100 and one and their mother 99. So we've got a little bit of time left. I have to say it's It's not the fear of death. It's, um it's the worry about the mess. You leave for other people to clean up, you know? And Douglas bu, um, [01:08:00] in his later years, Well, the first thing he did when he retired was to clean out his cupboards, and he never threw anything away. So all the letters, you know, were sent off to the Turnbull and and all the scores. He looked at the scores and make sure there was they were in right state and some sort of fragments. He thought, Well, I could revisit that and clean it up a bit. And so he tied it up as all his music. He tied it up his his his his state, in a sense, and set up the Turnbull Trust, [01:08:30] which has served, uh as well and will continue to serve us well, well into the future. So he tied it that up and his house. He started selling off all his marvellous collection of books and music and just emptying the house. So, you know, there was nothing much to clean up in with Douglas at the end. Uh, of course, it was the problem of the house itself. He would have. He was considering setting it up as a as a residence for composers, [01:09:00] but, um, he couldn't find anybody that he trusted to to to look after it. So he thought, Well, just sell it off and the money goes to the trust. So that created a problem for us who wanted it to be a residence. Um, but then I think of myself when I look around where we're sitting now and all that stuff that's here and thinking, Well, the people that left behind poor things. [01:09:30] So I Yes, yes, I. I think everybody should consider the mist they leave behind and make sure it's not too much of a burden. You mentioned earlier that you had your first workshop? Uh, just a couple of days ago. Tell me about that. Um, it's been an issue. Thinking of the ideal dancer for for, um [01:10:00] uh, the the show and the as I say the the budget for this is really stretched, and I'm so grateful that the a PO, you know, making it happen at all. But I approached a few dancers I approached, and then these were friends and people whose work I respected, and they respected me and my work. So they are people that I knew, Um, and it was marrying the right dancer [01:10:30] with the right choreographer if it needed to have a choreographer and it it it had a few ups and downs and bumps and sideways and backwards. So a few dramas along the way, we we're far enough out for for it not to be crisis. But I had in mind a certain dancer from way back. And but, you know, that's 20 years ago More 25 years ago, almost 23 years ago. So, uh, you know, that person's life has changed, [01:11:00] and I wasn't sure that they were the right person or they would fit. Um, So we we explored various options and likewise with a a director somebody that that, um, you know, was imaginative and didn't mind a small budget. And and then the the two names that I came up with, you know, just in the last week and put them together and it's magic. It's it's the idea of his his imagination that it they're both gay. Um, uh, they [01:11:30] like each other, they they respect each other and we did a little workshop, and they they work fabulously together. So it's the ideal team, Um, which we've come up with, Um, and the dancer is both Maori and gay. New Carmen loved Carmen Perfect. He he he would pay to do the role. He's so committed and and he doesn't have other commitments. So the [01:12:00] commitment is sensational. When you get into this phase where you're starting to workshop material, do you see it more as a collaboration, or are you quite set in in what you want to see? Oh, well, this this this was exactly what we discussed two days ago. Um, and and the structure of the work because it's music is kind of fixed. You can't mess around with it. You know, the durations and the material is sort of fixed. Uh, I can juggle movements and [01:12:30] in the original dances, as they were performed as a guitar concerto two of the movements, uh, merge one into the other. And the question is, you know, is that a good concept for a dancer to suddenly change their role? You know, from one to the other, Can it work theatrically? And? And the the director said, Well, it could work. But then we listened to it, and we thought, No. Now let's make them separate dancers. Um uh, so we agreed [01:13:00] on that and that, uh, the director and the dancer quite like the idea that the dancer was kind of sort of there as Carmen throughout the show. And, um, you know, I'm I'm not a person to say no, categorically. But that wasn't my original concept. And I saw the danger of this exotic person drawing a attention away from the singers who are formidable artists in their own right and whose messages [01:13:30] are kind of AAA are beyond the person of the dancer in drag. They they they are actually, they are women, kind of, um uh uh singing with the power of what we might conventionally call call a man. They have that that power, which we might normally think of as masculine. Um, because they're so strong. So I I saw that as a as theatrically Uh uh [01:14:00] um, confusing for an audience. So we have the dancer and it's clear what their dancer is. And then we have singers and that's, uh that's an that's another story. That's something else, except for the counter teller who is, in fact AAA transformed man becoming a woman. And so I can see uh uh at certain points that there might be a connection made between the person of Carmen [01:14:30] as the drag queen and this counter tenor who has the voice of a woman. So, uh, lots of emails to come up and some workshops together. But in a way, uh, the the the dancer and the and the director understand each other, they understand the concept. They've got the music so they can get on with it. And I'll pop in occasionally and and give my approval And my acclaim, No doubt. Is it quite tricky, though, with having a dancer of singers and [01:15:00] orchestra that they're not all competing to be in the foreground? The How do you get that back? Everybody has their moment. So So it's this singer and and it's only um, as I say, the potentially a couple of spotss where the singer and the dancer Oh, with the the when the dancer is related to the counter tennder, uh, we've decided that it might be might be lip synching because this was a part of that whole culture. Of course. Uh, as a performer, [01:15:30] I mean, they might dance a bit, but actually, lip syncing is is is the the illusion that this voice is coming up. So II I think that's terrific. And we will try and work towards that. So at that time, they were actually linked as one person, one body, but a a voice from elsewhere thrown into that body. Um, but for the other two singers, they are soloists. They're stars, they're divas, they step forward, and all the attention is one or the other. And in the last song, they both sing momentary together. [01:16:00] So the the the Maori and the Spanish Gypsy become one momentarily. So I think it's it's it's taken all the year these years to perfect the concept. Absolutely. Can you talk to me about the idea that you're not necessarily picking, say, a trained singer, but you're you're going for something that's a lot more kind of earthy. Yes. Oh, well, I'm interested [01:16:30] in in other voices, in a sense, and I've worked with with, um, Cambodian singer, uh, an Indonesian singer. Um, just because they have a different kind of kind of vocal production. So I didn't want, um, I didn't want an operatic sound. And even if I use the trained singer as one of the singers, well, the the the singer in Spanish, she's a She's an opera singer, but I'm going to get her to sing as raw with [01:17:00] as raw a sound as possible. And I'm going to give her samples of the kind of sounds I'm looking for. And I She's a wonderful singer and I I I'm I'm convinced that she can capture that quality. But the Maori singer um, I I is untrained, and, um, she's given me the material, the musical material, I said. Here's the words. Give it to me, Sing it to me. So she's sung from her culture [01:17:30] and and I transcribed and then built something around it. So in in some sense, it's totally authentic. I I'm aware that Maori culture you have to be very careful with. But how do you you use it in a sense. So I deliberately chose text because texts, You know, I have high ownership, you know, And and to use a text, you have to go through a whole world of permission and and being, um, granted the right to use certain text. So [01:18:00] these texts are not marry there. Russian, the Spanish, the Swedish, through English, into Maori. So, uh, in fact, the it's the singer's mother who who translated for me. So it's kind of in the family in that sense, So they do feel a little bit of ownership, but it's not associated with iwi. It's associated with family. Um, just the the mother and daughter, Um but but [01:18:30] that she's made these words her own and and she sung with her voice. So, um, that's it's really powerful stuff. Oh, knock out. I'll tell you a story. Uh, I, uh we we, we we we Oh, yes, II. I said these poems some time ago A as a called, uh and, uh uh, so that that work was done also, like the other parts of the [01:19:00] of the of the work as pre exercises and and they were we we did a We did a concert in in California. So we went there and she sang and the audience was pretty astonished. So we're confident that it's going to work well, But she she has a day job here in Wellington. A very responsible job. And she wasn't certain that she'd be up to sing, you know, to go to Auckland and give the time and rehearsals. [01:19:30] So I gave her a recording. I had given a recording, but she must have lost it. I gave her a recording. I said, Well, listen to yourself. You know you can you can do it. If you've done it in California, you can do it in Auckland. And she listened. Um, toured at home with her son, who's a teenager, and he said, Mum, that's so scary. And which is exactly what it is. And so [01:20:00] she she got the Commons to think, Oh, yeah, I can do this. I can do this. So, um so she's on board. You've also, uh, picked a kind of a not not a conventional director or not a institutionalised director. Can you tell me about that? Yes. Um, no, Warwick. Broadhead was the, uh, in the original team in 1990 as [01:20:30] a designer. And, um uh, the ballet company accepted him. Um, Warwick as people, Anybody that knows knows his name is what one would call an independent artist. Has worked in theatre a kind of, um um, certainly not an institutionalised conventional theatre. He's made theatre with people who are not actors. He he makes costumes [01:21:00] out of any junk he can find. He he he creates, um, the texts out of out of people's experience, his own experience and the and the participants experience. He chooses venues like a beachfront. Sand dunes it. So it's it's, um it's theatre from the from the depths of imagination without any trappings of of convention and and institution. Um, and he himself is a is an actor, [01:21:30] a performer, uh, and has done many er one person shows that he creates himself and sometimes with Colla collaboration with with musicians. So he he's for something original, something visionary, something, uh you know, that grows just out of imagination. He's the person, and, uh, he knows the dancer Jason. Um, over many years that they [01:22:00] get on together and, uh from the workshop. Little workshop we did a few days ago. The the chemistry is perfect between the two. so, uh, and also, uh, um, Warwick's sense of space because he's worked in in so many spaces. Um, uh, we spent an hour in the in the, uh, Auckland town hall. Just walking around looking at space. Uh, [01:22:30] um, visions from the what do you call it? Um, vision lines, sight lines from various places. Um, And then he looked up and he saw the hole in the ceiling, which is very high. Oh, Jason has to come down from up there. He says So, um, maybe that will happen. Um, thinking of, of all all kind. His imagination runs riot. So some of these things will work. Some might have to be discarded along the way, but, you know, he's very, [01:23:00] very creative. Very uh, very open and and also very willing to collaborate in the in the best sense, he as he says, talking to me, it's your piece, and it's true. I mean, the music is is a big labour, and and once it's fixed, it's fairly fixed. So he'll have to, you know, that's I can't change much about that. Um, but, uh, and And likewise, the dancer from that, uh, workshop, [01:23:30] you know, is so committed. So, uh, it's a great team. The Auckland Town Hall, where it's going to be performed. How will that be laid out as you? Yes, we plan a catwalk out from the orchestra, so I think that it's possible the singers might move a bit, Um, maybe from place to place. But I, I quite like the idea that they are spotlit at certain places. Sort of isolated, uh, 123. [01:24:00] So that they are, um, solo. Um uh, but the dancer will move around, Um, hopefully around the stage without knocking over too many music stands. Um, but most especially out into the audience along the catwalk, descending down into the into the auditorium. Um, and it's being laid out with, uh, tables and chairs so that people can [01:24:30] sit around whether whether they're drinking wine or cups of tea. I don't know. That's up to other people to decide, but, uh, we we like the idea. There should be some hint of, um, Carmen's coffee lounge where, um, you know, there are coffee cups or tea cups around that people could, um, uh, drink from the audience, that is, and, uh, that the Carmen might occasionally read the tea leaves, you know, or no, actually, [01:25:00] the, um, the thing, of course, that that, um, how you positioned your cup Indicated what? What you wanted to happen next. Whether you wanted to go upstairs for a bit of fun and the nature of that fun. So there was a whole code of of these tea cups, um, and and how you placed them. So there might be a hint of that, which would be very nice. One thing that really kind of staggers [01:25:30] me a wee bit. Is that all of this energy, you know, years and years of development. And then all of this energy for this performance is going into one night. How do you feel about having all that energy directed into 13 hour performance? Well, not three hour. No, no, no, no, no, not that long. It's about 11 hour, 15 minutes or one hour, 20 minutes. Um oh, yes, of course, but but composers are used to that. One [01:26:00] has to say, um, hopefully there will be good recording. from Radio New Zealand concert, Um, and I. I would love for it to be videoed, um, and and maybe even a film about which would include the show and possibly more. Possibly just excerpts from the show. But also something about the preparation the the, um uh, rehearsals with the dancer and the singers. Uh, [01:26:30] kind of psychological preparation. Um, uh, so it is getting late in the day to organise this, but I hope I live in hope that it might might be documented in some way. Um, it it it's an expensive show. And, uh, I would have loved for it to have had two at least, but no, no, Um, the the the festival saw only the possibility, really, of one performance. [01:27:00] Um, that's reality. But, you know, many, many times a composer will work on a piece, albeit not as big as this, um, and get one performance. And it might be that there might be never another performance, but a a recording, at least, um, is at least that's some kind of document that really did happen. Yeah. Oh, well, that's life.
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