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Kira, my name is Karen Wilton. I was born in late 1963 in Masterton and grew up in Masterton with my mother and my father and one younger sister. Um, my father died suddenly in an accident when I was 11, and so my mother was a solo mother after that. Um, Masterton was, it was a conservative kind of a place and um, that wasn't something I'd noticed as a young kid, but once I was a teenager, um, that beca started feeling quite difficult for me because I wasn't really a conservative.[00:00:30] Person. Um, I thought of myself as a feminist and probably as bisexual. And, um, yeah, so I left home when I had just turned 16 and went to, went to Wellington, started university at the tender age of just 16. Um, and it was, it was 1980. And so it was quite a, quite a heady, buzzy kind of a time really with, um, the Springbok tour was the following year and there was a lot of, um, student political activism was very, very apparent. Um, there was a lot of feminist [00:01:00] activism. There was anti-apartheid activism, um, gay, gay and lesbian rights activism. And so I found that really exciting and started getting, started getting involved with it. I'll just, uh, take you back a little bit when you, when you said, um, you, you thought of yourself as a bisexual and I'd be really interested to know. Back in those days, back in the kind of early, late seventies, um, was bisexuality talked about and was it, was, was that the word that was [00:01:30] used? It was, it was talked about a little bit. It was talked about a little bit and I, um, I didn't do anything about it. Right. I just, I just went out with boys as a teenager at school. I totally just went out with boys and, um, but I had this idea that, Which I think I had picked up from my hippie cousin in, um, Scotland. Um, I had this idea that everyone's bisexual we're all bisexual. And, um, I, yeah, I was like, yeah, I don't have a relationship with a woman [00:02:00] sometime. But, um, it was pretty homophobic in my school, really. Um, The homophobia was aimed in particular at boys, at, um, at young gay men or at, or at anyone who wasn't any, any boy who wasn't performing masculinity in the kind of way that he was expected to be, would be tagged with being, being a poofer or, um, subjected to homophobic abuse. Yeah, but it certainly, um, the idea of lesbianism or bisexuality wasn't [00:02:30] acceptable at all either. And so I didn't act on that at all, um, until I was, um, safely free of Masterton and living in Wellington. And then when you were going to university in Wellington, what was the kind of attitude towards, um, gays, bisexuals, uh, lesbians then? Well, in the general community at university, it was pretty homophobic and horrible as well. Really, um, definitely plenty of rhetoric around POFs and Lizzies and, you know, um, yeah. [00:03:00] But, but then around the sort of feminist scene, um, I started going to the Women's Action Group at Victoria and to my, to my great excitement, met some people who were lesbians. I was really, um, I was, I was quite wow about it to meet some women who were actually lesbians. And I made some friends who were gay men at that stage too. Um, some people I met up with through, maybe initially through anti-apartheid activism. I met a, I met a couple of, um, young gay men. We were all [00:03:30] very young, you know, we were 7 17, 18. Um, and I ended up going flatting with in 1981, the year of the tour. Ended up going flatting with a couple of, couple of gay men. Yeah. Can you describe that first meeting of meeting, uh, a lesbian or or gay person for the very first time, uh, to, to your knowledge? What was that like for you? I was, I just felt like wow, about it. I mean, I just remember, I don't remember it in detail, but I remember being at a women's [00:04:00] action group meeting at Vic in the union building and, um, two of the women who were there, one of whom was somebody I had met the previous year. At the Women's Rights Center that was in Boco Street at the time. I'd gone to a meeting about rape and I'd met this woman, Leslie there. And then the next year she was at this Woman's Action Group meeting and she was holding hands with another woman. And I was just like, oh my goodness. How exciting. Yeah. So I can't remember having any kind of conversation with them. Um, and certainly not about them being [00:04:30] lesbians or being a couple or whatever, but I was just really thrilled. Oh, like lesbians are real, lesbians are real. Here are some, and then I met a few more lesbians after that. Yeah, but the kind of take within the feminist movement at the time was very much, bisexuality just didn't even really exist, um, within people's understanding of things. Um, you know, so the, the talk was all about, um, being lesbians and people coming out as lesbians. [00:05:00] Bisexuality wasn't offered as an option that someone might come out as, or be w was it looked. Down on? Or was it just not an option? Just not present really. Just not present and not an option? Yeah. Yeah. And so I came out as a lesbian, um, at the, probably aged, I was probably 18, I think. Um, I had got involved in a few things. We had set up a young women's group. We had a group of, of young women, which I think we defined as anyone under 21. [00:05:30] Um, and we used to meet at the Women's Center in Kott Street. So I knew a bunch of very young women aged from, you know, some of them were still at high school, aged 13, 14, and 15. Um, but that was a group full of people that kept coming out as lesbians all the time. And the kind of, um, political expectation was that you were, that you were to be a lesbian. So, Um, and that, that feminism meant withdrawing your energy from men. Feminism meant taking your energy away from men, having nothing to do with men, um, [00:06:00] and being a lesbian. Putting your energy, putting your energy into women, and having a sort of a women's centered society really. So that development, uh, or the, um, the growth of separatist spaces, w that, that that was something that wa was going on. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, certainly when you say separate as spaces, I mean certainly things like women's dances and women's meetings and women's, um, this and that. Um, but [00:06:30] also this kind of idea, ideology of it, a kind of, um, maybe not separatism and it's purest pure sense with women having, you know, I didn't, I didn't know that many people who had nothing whatsoever to do with men, but, um, the ideology really tended in that direction. Yeah. Yeah, it was not very, and I mean, it was very hard on heterosexual women that I knew as well. Um, I think, I think it was hard, I think it was hard on them, um, that it wasn't very acceptable for anyone to have a, [00:07:00] any of these, any feminists to have a boyfriend. What was it like in, in, uh, feminist circles in relationship to, um, kind of lesbian energy and heterosexual energy? Were, was there any kind of conflict or, or, or did that just, um, sit side by side? I think there was a bit of conflict. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, um, my sense was that le that some of the lesbian feminists could be quite, Critical of [00:07:30] heterosexual women and heterosexuality. Um, and including, including me. Um, I remember, um, being at a, I was involved in organizing a women's conference called the Women Learning Weekend that was held at Vic. In probably 1982, I think. I haven't looked that up or thought about it for a long time. Um, but um, I had, I had just come out as a lesbian that weekend. I had just kissed a girl for the first time and I was very excited about being a lesbian. And they had a thing at the conference, which seems [00:08:00] terrifying now, where you could wear a. I think it was a purple armband if you were a lesbian. So I wore a purple armband and I was quite like, I remember being quite harsh and standing up and speaking at something and saying that I was really sick of women putting their energy into men, me, who had come out as a lesbian like eight hours previous. Right. And, um, my, whether she was still my flatmate or not, but anyway, my heterosexual friend was cry, started crying, um, because of, because of me saying that, yeah. [00:08:30] What, what was involved with you coming out? What, what did what? How did you do that? Oh, that's an interesting question. Yes. What does it, what does it mean really? I don't know. Um, I probably just mean deciding for myself, deciding for myself that that was what I was and that, um, but I didn't, I didn't quite allow myself to do that until I had actually kissed a woman. I. Um, I, um, yeah, I sort of didn't feel that I had the right to, I suppose, um, yeah, wanted to [00:09:00] prove that I could actually do that. Um, yeah, and I was already, I mean, I'm just thinking about like clothes and things like that. Um, definitely as a. Previously heterosexual feminist around that, around that scene and around the anti-apartheid activism and everything. I mean, I had already cut off my hair very short, was wearing painters overalls most of the time. Would never, um, I was gonna say, would never have considered wearing a skirt, but that may not be quite true. I still had some [00:09:30] secondhand fifties floral bits and pieces that I would put on sometimes. Um, Yeah, but it was like making a pub, a public, a public statement about myself, making a statement to myself, and then making a public statement about it as well to everyone around me. A and how was it received? Oh, I, I think in my, um, sort of feminist milieu that I was in, people would've been really pleased. Or maybe a bit sort of like about time. About time. You got on. About [00:10:00] time. You got onto that. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And my family, my mother, I mean, my mother was a, a liberal, she was kind of, kind of okay with it. She was a, she seemed a little bit bemused because I had been quite, I had been quite sexually active as a young heterosexual or as a young person. Um, and so she was a little bit bemused, like, oh, but you had all these boyfriends and you, um, seem to have quite a lot of sex and things. You seem to have quite a lot of heterosexual sex, and now you.[00:10:30] So you're saying that wasn't real and that you're a lesbian? I think my mother was a little bit, a little bit taken aback by that and, um, fair coming too. Really. I think looking back, you, you, you've mentioned a number of times the Women's Center at, uh, six Boycott Street. Uh, my understanding, uh, I I, I I wasn't around, uh, there at the time, but my understanding was it was a bit of a, just a hive activity in terms of a whole lot of different groups, uh, being there. Um, can you describe what six Boycott Street was like? [00:11:00] Yeah, it was an old, um, a big old Victorian building, um, which had probably been an office building of some sort, I suppose, um, yeah, across the road from some area of the angels. Um, And the gay center was, um, downstairs and actually in the basement, I think. Um, and the Women's Resource Center was on the first, on the first floor. And Heti Women's Health Collective was in a room next door to that with um, a [00:11:30] door, a door room between the two rooms. And then there was a lesbian center that was upstairs, another one or two flights of stairs. A and did the groups interact because there were so many groups that were occupying, there weren't there in the, in, in, over like a decade period. People went there all the time. You know, people were running in and out for meetings and meetings and making newsletters and support groups and, um, yeah, he, he was probably kind of staffed all the time as such, I would think, um, with women providing health [00:12:00] advice and doing, doing health, um, health advocacy kind of work. But the other, the other, you know, the other centers were just sort of, um, drop in, running in and out kind of centers. Mm-hmm. It was a, it was a great time with a se, with a, a great sense of poss possibility and of change being afoot. And was it one of the only places in Wellington that, that, that actually was kind of like a hub for kind of queer activism? Yes, I think so. I would think so. Um, yeah. [00:12:30] Yeah. I mean, there were other places for queer social, for queer socializing, some of which were, um, popups, I suppose you'd call them these days. You know, some of which were like, you know, just a da a dance, um, organized here or there. Um, yeah. In terms of gay men, there would've been, there would've been other things, the, the Dorian Society, but the Dorian Society is obviously not a queer activism place. It's, um, it was just a place for, um, a club for me to socialize together. Yeah. For you coming [00:13:00] out, did you ever feel, um, scared or afraid that, that, that something bad would happen to you? Or w was it just a very kind of positive experience? I was pretty delighted about coming out. Really. Um, I, I think I hadn't, I had, yeah, I mean, I quite like being a bit of an outsider being, um, outside of mainstream society and perhaps feeling a bit superior to mainstream society. So it was kind of like that. Um, but I also, like, I was a [00:13:30] very fear young feminist, and I had felt that as somebody who didn't exactly identify as heterosexual, but had a boyfriend and things, um, I had, I had felt like a bit of an outsider within that group, and I didn't wanna be an outsider in that group. I wanted to be, I wanted to be an insider. Um, and I wanted to be, you know, one of the, one of the elite or something. I wanted to be part of the. Um, yeah. A part of the more, more radical kind of groupings. [00:14:00] Yeah. And yeah, there was a lot of rhetoric around how being a lesbian would allow you to do that and withdrawing your energy from men and living in a lovely lesbian woman's kind of world, growing organic veggies and listening to women's music and, um, separating yourself from male energy. Yeah. A and is that what you found ultimately? Um, well, it stopped working so well for me, I guess [00:14:30] because it, because I started noticing that actually I still felt attracted to men sometimes, which was, um, absolutely anathema, anathema to the community that I had found myself living within. Um, so it was a bit of a, a struggle within my own head about, about that. Um, and yeah, I. The, within the lesbian community, I mean, there were some, I've, I've got some really old, really old friends that I was friends with then, and some really old deep [00:15:00] friendships and things, but the community could, it could be very warm and accepting and loving, and it could also be quite judgmental. Um, yeah, so there was definitely often a sense of like, are you living up to being the right kind of lesbian? Are you wearing the right things? Are you doing the right things? Oh, do you still have a gay man friend? You know, I still, I still had gay male friends, um, at that time and kind of felt like, maybe I shouldn't, maybe I shouldn't, you [00:15:30] know, so there was a bit of a, it was, it wasn't always easy, really. So, so, so could you describe for me, um, the kind of relationships say between the lesbian and gay communities in, in the early eighties in Wellington, there was kind of a gap between the communities. I think, um, you know, there were places where the communities kind of met and interacted where particular people had particular relationships with each other, either through friendship or um, activism [00:16:00] together. Um, act actions together. Um, but the communities were separate. If I was drawing them as a Venn diagram, there wouldn't be a very, um, big crossover in the middle. Yeah. I mean, among a lot of the lesbians that I knew, I was one of the few people who had a, who had a lot of gay male friends. I had some very close gay male frames that I, um, That I continued to continue to spend time with. Um, and I went flatting with one, actually. I, um, I [00:16:30] moved out of a lesbian flat. I'd been in and went flat with my, my old friend Rob Lake, who you've also interviewed, I believe. And, um, we had a, we lived in a house together in Newtown, just the two of us for about a year. Mm. And that wasn't very acceptable. Well, I don't, I don't know. I mean, no one, no one told me off about it, but I do remember us, I do remember us having a party and his friends were all gay men and my friends were all lesbians and or feminists. Anyway, women and people were just in separate areas of the house. Um, [00:17:00] like people were, one lot were out on the back of the morning and everybody else was in the lounge. Or something, um, reminded me of how my parents used to have those parties where all the guys are in the garage drinking beer and all the women are inside drinking black bruna or something. You know, it was quite, quite, quite separate with pla separate communities, with places that they, with places the way they touched, which makes it all the more, um, remarkable to me that the communities came together for homosexual law reform. [00:17:30] Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I was living in Australia, um, during the law reform campaign, so can't comment on that so much and, and on how that played out. So when, when you were in Australia and looking back at New Zealand, uh, which was going through homosexual law reform, what, what were your thoughts? Well, it's 19 85, 86, so there's no internet or anything. Right. So looking, looking at another country, um, definitely [00:18:00] not like looking at another country today. Right. As you know, of course, um, people would've been writing, we would've written letters to each other, me and my friends from home. We would've been writing letters. So, you know, it, there's a, there's a lag. Um, yeah, I wasn't, I probably wasn't super aware of what was happening at the time, really? Because it was hard, it was hard to keep up with it. Yeah. I, I have more of a sense of it looking, looking back and seeing the footage from the times and photos of protests and things. But [00:18:30] I, I wasn't here and I was pretty immersed in trying to, um, get my life together in Sydney, get my life together in Sydney. Yeah. O One of the other things you've, you've touched on is, uh, the, with, with the anti-apartheid, uh, protests, but that intersectionality of activism that was happening in the early eighties. Can, can you talk a wee bit, a bit more about that and, and how that all kind of intersected? Yeah. I mean, whether it intersected in an [00:19:00] activism, in an activism, political kind of way, I'm not sure a lot of the same people were involved across. Anti apartheid activism, treaty activism, anti-nuclear activism, um, lesbian and gay activism. Feminism. Um, you know, so it was, a lot of, it was a lot of the same, a lot of the same people, but whether people really conceptualized it in any sense of intersectionality is, if that makes sense. Um, whether people were conceptualizing in that, in that kind [00:19:30] of way. Um, I'm not, I'm not sure. And whether those groups, um, Operated in that kind of way. I'm not sure really. Well, what, what about from, from, from your perspective, like, um, what drew you to all those different groups? Um, being young and angry. Being young and angry. But believing. Believing in believing in everything. Believing really strongly in everything. Um, yeah. [00:20:00] And definitely also that thing of being young and just being away from home and wanting to meet people and wanting to throw myself into things and wanting to be, um, involved with causes and feel and feel like my life had meaning and feel like I was, um, achieving something useful. And it was a lot of fun as well. It was a lot of fun. Kind of playful in some ways, you know, great people. Um, a lot of creativity. I was involved in a small street theater, small, a little street [00:20:30] theater troop that, um, performed at the, um, at anti-apartheid, um, protests in 1981. Um, yeah, yeah, it gave, it gave my life a great sense of meaning, really. I. Can you paint a picture for me of some of the other kind of social, uh, gathering places? Be they private or, or kind of public, that kind of queer communities or in particular bisexual communities were, [00:21:00] were inhabiting in Wellington? Well, there was no bisexual community of any sort until, um, we set up a group. In 1988. Um, but in terms of the queer, um, spaces, oh, women's dancers. Lesbian dancers, those were like pop-ups that were held in halls around the place, thistle Hall, Brooklyn Hall, um, and other, other halls around Wellington. Um, the university, university lesbian and gay dancers. Um, again, this is fairly early in the [00:21:30] eighties probably, and those were mixed, um, yeah, mixed dancers with women, with women and men. Um, you were meant to be lesbian or gay if you went to them. I don't, I think, um, I don't think hetero heterosexuals were not not allowed as, as such. Um, and I probably would've been the same for bisexuals. Bisexuals weren't really included. The in in things. Yeah. But we didn't really think about bisexuals in the, in the early days, in the early times of things. Mm. [00:22:00] One, one community we haven't talked about is the transgender community. And were you aware of, uh, the transgender community in in the eighties? In the eighties? I'm just trying to think when it would've been that we, yeah, it would've been the mid eighties that the railways havent down on Thornton Key became kind of a queer gathering place and there were quite a lot of trans women who would go there. Um, You would, you know, if you went to the Lou, there would be a trans woman in the air putting on her lipstick. That sounds a bit cliched of me, but it truly, there would be [00:22:30] trans women in their, in their touching up their makeup. Um, and trans men didn't really, um, there must have been trans men, but trans men didn't really emerge as a larger group until a little bit later on. Yeah, you mentioned the Thistle Hall dances, and I hadn't heard about those. What, so what was happening at the Thistle Hall? Oh, well it was, it was just one of those halls that people would hire to run a dance at. So women's dancers were, women's dancers were sometimes held there. Yeah. And I'm not sure who organized the [00:23:00] women's dances. There must have been some loose kind of grouping of women who maybe, or maybe different groups of women put together women's dances at different times. For a while there was a thing called dudes dykes out of debt, um, who, and they would organize dances that were fund fundraisers. Um, that's probably later eighties, towards early nineties I would think. Can I talk a little bit about how I decided that I was a bisexual and how all that kind of removed? Absolutely. Yeah. So, um, I [00:23:30] had, um, while I was still living in Wellington, I had, um, so early eighties, probably up until about 84, I had started to notice that I was still attracted to men occasionally. But that was a thing of great embarrassment to me that I didn't want anyone to know about. And I certainly didn't want to do anything about it. Um, but it was sort of feeling increasingly apparent to me, really. And so then I went to live in Sydney for a bit, and I have this written down somewhere. When did I move? In [00:24:00] 1985, I went to live in Sydney. Um, kind of following a woman friend, a heterosexual woman friend that I was, that I was in love with really. Um, but things didn't work out with her because she was heterosexual. Um, but, um, I moved, I mean, I got there and immediately moved into a flat with a bunch of lesbians because I saw myself as a lesbian. Um, but then I felt a little bit freer because nobody really knew me in Sydney. You know, I only knew two or three people and no, I didn't feel like I was [00:24:30] being, um, Watched I wasn't within a community where people were aware of my behavior or cared what my behavior was. So I, um, around that time I started having some, um, little flings with men. And, um, I still really wanted to be a lesbian. I kept telling myself that, um, oh, well I've been having these sexual things with men, but, um, I still identify as a lesbian. I haven't fallen in love with a man and I couldn't, I could only love a woman.[00:25:00] Um, yeah, but then I traveled still further to, um, and ended up in Europe and on a Greek island, met a man and lo and behold fell in love with him. And I was like, oh, no. Like a problem. A problem has occurred. Has occurred here. Okay. Guess I'm not really lesbian after all. Gosh. Wow. Um, and so lived with him for a little bit in Edinburgh for three or four months, I think, and just lived as if I was a, just felt like a heterosexual, um, living with a guy walking around, holding hands with a guy. [00:25:30] It was quite a strange experience after three or four years of being completely immersed in the lesbian community. Yeah. And then I came back to Wellington. Um, my relationship broke up and I came back to Wellington in 87 after being away for two and a half years. And because all my friends in Wellington were lesbian and were involved in nearly all my friends and were involved in lesbian feminism and lived in lesbian flats and had quite a separate stake on things. Um, [00:26:00] The contradictions in everything became really apparent then, and really, really quite difficult for me. How was I gonna, how was I gonna negotiate this? Where was I going to live? Who would I flat with if I wasn't a lesbian anymore? Um, who was going to, yeah. Where was I going to be accepted and where was I going to, where was I gonna fit in? It was quiet, it was quite stressful. And I didn't, I didn't know anybody who identified as a bisexual, you know, it wasn't a thing that anybody talked about at all. Uh, Yeah, so I kind [00:26:30] of wrangled with that, wrangled with that for, I suppose about the, the best part of a year. And then, um, I, I mean, I had this kind of background of being involved in lots of women's groups. You know, you, you, um, have, uh, you have an issue or you identify with something. What do you do? You set up a support group so that you meet others like you, um, and support each other. So, um, So that was, that was what I did. I, um, put up a notice in the women's bookshop, um, [00:27:00] about a bisexual women's group, about starting a bisexual women's group and put my name and phone number on it, which felt quite brave at the time. Um, yeah. And so that was, that was in 1987? No, it wasn't. It was in 1988. And what was the group called? Um, well, we were just called the Bisexual Women's Group, Wellington Bisexual Women's Group. We probably weren't called that immediately. We wouldn't have had a name. But fairly quickly, I think we became known as the Wellington Bisexual Women's Group, which I think it's [00:27:30] still known as probably did. Did any of your, um, friends or people in the community, um, Challenge you when, when you, and say, well, actually no, you are, you're a lesbian. Did did anyone kind of just say that to you? No, they didn't say that as such. Nobody said that as such, but people definitely said things like that they would be more comfortable with me if I was a lesbian. And, um, yeah, I mean, people, people weren't happy about it. People weren't, people weren't happy [00:28:00] about it. And, um, definitely the, it felt like the take among the lesbian community was that, Um, you couldn't, that you couldn't trust bisexuals. You certainly wouldn't wanna have a relationship with a bisexual because she, um, would probably leave you for a man, probably really straight. Um, just couldn't be, trust her. Just un untrustworthy, untrustworthy, flaky kind of people that can't, can't settle on one side of things or another. How, how did that make you feel to [00:28:30] suddenly be in that kind of space? Oh God, it sucked. It was awful. It was awful. I felt very, um, yeah, it was quite a, quite a struggle, kind of a time for me, really. You know, I had one or two very close friends who, um, were very judgmental of me. Very, very hard on me. And, um, and yeah, yeah, it was a miserable kind of a time. Really. Yeah. Friends had had a, A room going in there flat and they said I could move in as long as I didn't have sex with a man in the flat. [00:29:00] And I thought, oh, I don't, I don't want to, I dunno exactly what they mean by that. But also, um, I don't, I don't want to do that. I'm not prepared to do that. Yeah. But it was a funny time as well. Once I got kind of identified with being the bisexual activist person, um, I, um, would, because I, sometimes things would happen, like I would go to a party with a whole lot of my, of women friends and, um, but people would come up. It happened a few times that that. People who were ostensibly lesbian [00:29:30] came and confided in me that actually they were attracted to a man or that they had had a relationship with a man or, um, yeah. So people wanted to tell me this stuff because other people were struggling with it too. But then it didn't mean they wanted to support me publicly. They didn't. Yeah. Yeah. And then it was great that, I mean, we had this meeting, the first meeting was on, I have written this down on the, and now where can I find it? 25th of, no, 6th of July, 1988 was the first, was the first [00:30:00] meeting. And probably about a dozen women came along to it. Um, it was held at somebody's flat, somebody who lived quite centrally offered, offered her flat for the evening. And, um, everyone got together and just kind of, it was so, it was great to meet other people who, um, Were also also bisexual. Yeah. But they tended to be most of the women who were involved in it in the early days, um, their pasts had been as heterosexuals more, you know, they were, they were coming from the [00:30:30] other side of things as it were. Um, Yeah. They weren't so much people who, women who had been involved in the women's community and were dealing with it, dealing with the fallout of moving, of moving away from that to being bisexual. They were, they were women who previously had had relationships with men and were now thinking about having a relationship with a woman, and yet it was still really great. So I felt, I felt a bit different from them and, and my experience was quite different from them. Yeah. And I got into a relationship with one of the women in the group. Um, and that, [00:31:00] um, in some ways made my life a whole lot easier to have a woman partner because most of my friends were still around the lesbian community. And so even if I was identifying as bisexual, at least I was in a same sex relationship. Can you recall the feeling you had after that first meeting, after that first group came together? I can't really, no, I can't really. I can't really, I can't really. But it was, uh, well, I suppose I was, um, really pleased to have done it. People were really enthusiastic, they were really keen [00:31:30] to, um, have a support group kind of thing and to keep meeting and keep talking about things. And, um, yeah, it totally, uh, definitely felt like the right thing to be doing. Can you tell me some of the activities that the, the bisexual group did? Yeah, we, um, we used to meet, um, we met very regu fairly regularly, like every two or three weeks or something, I think, um, with quite like meal and kind of during, during round, what's on top, how, how are you feeling today, that kind of [00:32:00] thing. Um, and just kind of discussing, discussing issues and discussing issues and things. And then the group, um, we started a newsletter. Um, about a year after we first started, so from June, 1989, I've got this written down. We started a newsletter, um, rather nicely called bylines, which, um, was handwritten at first. Um, yeah, the early hand, couple of handwritten, um, first issues, quite [00:32:30] cute. And then, um, type, type written and photocopied. Um, so we started a newsletter and then we decided to organize a national conference. Um, So in 1990, um, yeah, we organized the first, the first conference was in, um, east at, at Easter 1990, um, held at the Newtown Community Center. And it was, um, it was probably, probably about half people from Wellington, but [00:33:00] also, um, People, and I'm pretty sure the women in as well as women, but not very many bisexual men. Um, so people from around New Zealand came as well, like I recall people from Auckland and Hamilton and down south. And yeah, it was just run like one of those standard political conferences at the time with, um, workshops of different sorts where you could get together and discuss things. Um, I think we had childcare on site. Um, someone, someone [00:33:30] looking after the kids. So if you wanted to bring your, wanted to or had to bring your tam here along, um, there was, there was childcare for them. Um, how many people attended? Oh, I would say probably 40 or so. 30 or 40. Yeah. And the Wellington group probably had a, um, I mean it was a loose kind of a group with people dropping in and out. Um, as they wanted to, but it probably had a core of about 10 people who were quite strongly involved and would've come to most of [00:34:00] the meetings, would've been involved in organizing the conferences. Um, yeah, that would, that would've been the kind of central, the central group, central grouping in Wellington. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of pot, a lot of potlucks, picnics in the botanical gardens. Um, a Christmas party at the house that my partner and I shared up in Brooklyn, sitting on the deck. Um, so, so social. It was kind of social. Social supportive and political. Were there public spaces [00:34:30] that were bisexual friendly? Not specifically. And occasionally things like women's dances would be, um, quite unfriendly to bisexuals. Not always, not always at all. But I do remember, um, my partner and I and a couple of friends going to a woman's dance up in Brooklyn and there was a, they had a sign on the door, a piece of paper that said, um, This is a, it said something like, this is a dance for lesbians, heterosexuals, fuck off, bisexuals, fuck off. [00:35:00] Um, and to my shame, even though I was a, certainly a card carrying bisexual, um, I went into the, went into the dance with my friends and my lesbian friend went and ripped down the sign and ripped it up. Um, yeah, but there was a little bit of, there was a little bit of that. I mean, there was sort of apparent biphobia sometimes. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's, it's, it's. Yeah. I mean, why shouldn't lesbians have their own spaces? It's not that I, it's not that I haven't opposed to lesbians having their own spaces at all, but there wasn't really anywhere else to [00:35:30] go, I suppose, you know, there were so few women's spaces or spaces that were friendly or that targeted, um, women in same sex relationships that, you know, sometimes you just really wanted to be in one of those places, and then you'd get there and it was like, oh, oh no, they hate bisexuals and don't want us to be here. Mm-hmm. That was a bit hard sometimes. You, you mentioned that there was a, um, a smaller number of bisexual men, and I'm [00:36:00] wondering how did the gay community react to, to bisexual men? You know, I haven't the faintest idea really? Yeah. Don't know. I'm just like, let me think, let me think. Um, It's like I'm, I don't really remember people talking about bisexual men, and I didn't have a great deal to do with the bi, with the bi men who came to the conferences or whatever. I was still more interested in hanging out with women. Really? Yeah. I was still more about women. Mm. [00:36:30] Just, uh, looking back at the, uh, bisexual group, how, how did that, um, how did that grow? So, so you've talked about the start of it. How, how did it kind of, um, develop. Well, I suppose it developed from being a little, little, we support group where people were just getting together and Mo going from feeling like, oh my God, I'm the only bisexual in the world, to making bisexual friends and seeing that there were other people that were like you. So it started, it started from that, and then it [00:37:00] sort of expanded into becoming more pol, more politicized and more and more active. And I wasn't involved in this personally, but I'm pretty sure that people did stuff like. Um, have a stall, have a bisexual stall at the lesbian and gay fair that was held every year at Newtown School. Um, so becoming people became a bit more like Yeah. Sort of politicized visibility really. Yeah. I think people made t-shirts. I never had a t-shirt, but I'm pretty sure someone designed a li a [00:37:30] logo that we used on the newsletter and used for other things with, uh, so the B of bylines, sort of a double B, A double reverse B. So it looks like a butterfly. Um, and so people made te made t-shirts. Um, so just people were working towards more visibility and things. Yeah, I dropped out of my involvement in it a little bit as I got, um, just accustomed to, I got accustomed to being a bisexual. I felt better about being a bisexual. Um, [00:38:00] I was also in, uh, same sex relationships, so my life was a little bit easier really. Um, in terms of, I didn't, I didn't feel that desperate need so much for people to accept me and approve of me. Um, and just being involved, being involved with the bike group itself too. That definitely, um, yeah, definitely helpful in terms of coming to a sense of, um, self-acceptance and things, things did develop. Maybe, maybe some of the politics people developed after a little bit. [00:38:30] Um, I also wasn't so keen on people became a little bit like I. Um, that they thought bisexuals were better than other people. Um, people would use the term monosexuals to refer to lesbians or gays or heterosexuals, like people that are only attracted to one gender. Whereas we are attracted to everybody. We are equal opportunity lovers. And I didn't think that was helpful. I don't think it was helpful to be, um, judging other people's sexual identities. Um, we'd had it done, we'd had it done to us and it wasn't very nice. And um, yeah, [00:39:00] so I remember writing an editorial for the Biden newsletter. Um, around 1990. Just saying that I didn't think that was helpful and that I treated people saying monosexual and that I didn't, yeah, I didn't, I didn't, um, hold with it. Really. Do. Do you still think there is a need for specific groups, like a specific bisexual group or a specific, uh, lesbian group, or is it more, more, are we more, um, is, is it more kind of queer and more diverse now? I think there are still really [00:39:30] specific experiences. I think that, I think the catchall term of queer covers a myriad of different experiences, which are quite specific and quite different to each other. You know, um, yeah, I mean I would think that, you know, the experience of a Maori trans woman or, um, is, um, quite different to my experience in life. Um, so I mean it's, I think, I think it's great if we can have an L L G B T or queer community that's broad and includes and encompasses everybody, [00:40:00] but I think people's experiences within that can be very specific and very different to each other. And so I think it's probably, probably still useful. Yeah, for people to, um, have, have different groups to have, I always think of the communities, um, the queer communities, you know, not, not separate communities as such. I think there's more overlap than there used to be. Hope so. You are a incredibly accomplished, uh, writer and oral historian. And I noted there was a, um, an article you wrote in the mid [00:40:30] nineties, uh, looking at three bisexual women talking about their lives and, and, uh, their sexuality. Why was it important to be visualizing the bisexual communities in, in kind of these, um, mainstream magazines? Like I think this is from Moore Magazine. Oh, because. Because by sex bisexuality felt invisible. Yeah, bisexuality felt invisible. And it was, it was also something that I had, as they say, these days, lived experience of, um, and [00:41:00] connections in the community. And, uh, yeah, so like in a way wanting to express my own experience and get my own experience out there, um, Yeah. And wanting to, always wanting to kind of increase, increase, increase understanding, increase understanding and acceptance and, um, yeah, help, help people understand that things aren't necessarily so, so binary or so simple. Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. I was thinking before this interview that it's amazing to me [00:41:30] these days that, um, L G B T L, gbt, like the B is always in there, right? The B is always in there. Yeah, even ho even when people are being transphobic and they wanna drop the T, they keep the B And to me that's, it is amazing that the B has become a really standard part of, um, the wider, the wider queer communities and so, and so accepted and so, and so normalized because it really, really, really wasn't, it really wasn't, um, wasn't visible at all or accept or [00:42:00] acceptable really. Uh, are these some of the things that also kind of drive you to do your oral histories? Because I mean, you, you are, um, incredibly ENC accomplished with your, your oral history projects. I mean, particularly, uh, you know, I'm thinking of this sex worker, um, oral history project you did. Uh, what, what is driving you in, in, in that kind of recording of histories? I think it's just really important to get things recorded that might not be recorded otherwise, especially, um, [00:42:30] From, and for communities that, um, whose voices haven't been heard so much, such as sex workers, such as trans women, such as bisexuals, who, whoever, you know, um, some stories definitely get to, um, take up a lot more, get a lot more of the spotlight than others. Some stories get a lot more of the spotlight, um, and other stories are. Um, invisibilized or kind of take, take place [00:43:00] in, take place in quiet little corners among, um, quite small, quite small groups, um, and aren't, aren't necessarily heard publicly. So not, yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, just kind of, just kind of that and wanting to, um, just, I guess always wanting to increase people's understanding and acceptance of each other. That sounds very naf not very political I think, but, um, But I think that's, I think that's true. Yeah. Wanting people's voices [00:43:30] to be heard and wanting people's stories to be documented while, while they're, while they're still around. I think, uh, from memory you did a, was it 18 and a half hours talking to Donna DeMilo? Oh God, Donna, yes, I did. Yes, I did. That must have been absolutely amazing. Yeah, it was so great. It was so great. Donna is, even when I did a pre-interview with, with Donna, um, the oral history concept of a pre-interview is you just meet, as I'm sure you know, you just meet, meet with the person and have a little chat and [00:44:00] don't, don't let them tell you any of their stories kind of thing. Well, my pre-interview with Donna, when I first introduced myself to her, oh, it was like three and a half hours. I just couldn't get away from her. She was so talkative. Yeah. But we, um, but once I got onto doing the interview proper, Um, Donna, I lived in Strathmore down at the bottom in Strathmore. Donna lived up the top in Strathmore in a little, um, state, state housing unit. Um, and we became very fond of each other. We became quite, quite close and, [00:44:30] um, I would go and do a couple of hours with her every. It was one particular day of the week that suited us both Tuesday or Thursday or something. And I would, um, drive up to her place. I'd usually take some, take some food for lunch and, um, we would, we would, um, I would, I would interview her and then we'd stop in the middle. Like we'd do an hour of interview and then stop and have some, have some Kai and, um, yeah, her, her little dog and her cat. Um, what were their [00:45:00] names? The dog. The dog was called Rap, I think. Um, and her cat. Damn. Can't remember her name, but the cat name. But they were both black. Um, so there were always the little, little animals running around. And she had a great, great little, little house with, um, she was very, very fond of, um, Egyptian things. And her house was full of Egyptian paraphernalia and had a lot of beautiful photos on the walls of, um, her, um, her old, her old friends, and in particular people who had passed away. There were a lot of beautiful photos of people on the people on the [00:45:30] wall, and, um, Yeah. Very, very fond memories of, um, of, of going up to see Dana week after week after week to do this insanely long interview. Yeah. And like the very last, um, I mean you talk about it being 18, 18 and a half hours, but if you listen to the last file of it, which I mean so long, surely no one will ever listen to all of that. They'd have to be very keen. But, um, the last, the last hour is just me being like, well, should we try and wrap this up now and then don't. Come up with another story and [00:46:00] then I, and she'd get through that, and then I'd be like, okay, so I think we're just about done here. And then, you know, there's like an hour, there's like an hour of me trying to finish the interview. Yeah. But I loved Anna. We loved each other. We, um, we, yeah. Yep. She was great. It, it's, it's a, it's a wonderful ton and, um, to have that now in the national library that people can access and listen to and just hear this, this history of Wellington and the trans community is, um, yeah, really, [00:46:30] really stunning. Oh, thank you. I mean, I love it that yeah, I, I felt very privileged to, to be able to meet these people. And Donna introduced me to a friend of hers in Auckland who was a little bit younger than her, but not that much. And so, yeah, to interview some of these older trans women about, about their lives. Um, such a, such a privilege. So, so great.
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