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I grew up in New Plymouth. And what else do you want? How long were you in New Plymouth for? Um, until I was about 17. And then I went to Auckland University for a couple of years there and then moved to Wellington. And I've been here since about 1986 or seven or so? Yeah. So I've been in Wellington longer than I've been anywhere else. And when you were growing up in New Plymouth, um, were you at girls schools or mixed schools? Well, obviously mixed schools in, [00:00:30] um, primary and intermediate, but an all girls school at high school. Yeah. And how was that for you? Um, it was it was OK because I had, uh, brothers, So I kind of always had guys around me and they weren't a big deal. Whereas some of the girls that was sort of like, Wow, there's a boy. You know, it was a a kind of a big deal. Um, but the other thing is that my dad was a teacher at the high school, and he's quite an eccentric character. So, um yeah, that was kind of interesting. When people found out that my father [00:01:00] was you know, Mr Little and, um yeah, and so I couldn't really be too naughty at school. He retired when I was in my seventh form, and that's probably when I started to be naughtier. Yeah, what were you involved in at school? Were theatrics, or, um, I think I was in a couple of school plays, Um, but mostly kind of sports things. So I was big into hockey. And what else? Volleyball and athletics, maybe. [00:01:30] Yeah. And when you went to Auckland, what? What did you go to study? Uh, I think it was drinking mostly. Well, it was back in the day when there were no student loans or student schemes. So, you know, we got paid a student allowance and didn't have a student loan. So and it was a bit of party Central was out of New Plymouth, which was an interesting town to grow up. And, you know, um, not a lot to do. Not a very diverse kind of, um, little city. [00:02:00] So, you know, being away from home for the first time was like, wow, look at this world out here and then doing things like sociology at university. It was like Wow, this. You know, there's different ways of thinking. And, um so I I did a B a in English because that's what all my friends were doing, and that's what you did back then. But I really, um, enjoyed the humanities more than and I did better at that than, um, you know, English literature and all that sort of stuff. I hated English, actually. Yeah, fun enough. [00:02:30] And, um, were you out in Auckland? Um, no. But all of my friends were telling me I was a lesbian, although I did have boyfriends. Um, so, yeah, it was quite interesting. I had this guy, one of my friends at university, said that I dressed like a feminist butch, feminist, lesbian, and I was quite taken aback partly by that, but also quite chuffed. And secretly, um, and I also saw the top twins for the first time in my life, [00:03:00] baking on Queen Street. And, um, they sort of gave me this knowing look, and I was kind of look behind me. Like, who are they looking at on me? Um, and seeing them was just amazingly life changing. I used to go and hunt them down on Queen Street just to look at them and just think, Wow, you know, you can be like this in the world, and and it's really cool. And you came out then. No, I didn't. No, um I had some disastrous relationships with boys. Um, until I got to [00:03:30] Auckland. Uh, sorry to Wellington, um, and then finally left this terrible relationship. Um, and we just thought I need to be on my own for a bit. There's something going on here that's not, you know, kind of working for me, and then I don't know how I kind of got in wiggled into the lesbian community. I think I started working at the National Library. That's right. And the wonderful Glenda Gale was around and there were lots of lesbians at the library. Surprisingly enough, um, and so I kind of gravitated [00:04:00] towards them and then got into got invited to a woman's dance at the university, um, which I was nervously excited about until I went and I thought, Well, this is ridiculous because there are men here, but they weren't men. So, um, and I just it felt like, you know, this sounds really cliche, but it felt like home. You know that I'd found where I was meant to be. Yeah. What sort of age were you? 23 [00:04:30] or four? Yeah. 23 I think. And so then what did you get involved in in the lesbian scene in Wellington? Um, mostly drinking. Um, really bad, doesn't it? Um, I was doing a master's in recreation and leisure studies, so I was really into, kind of, you know, recreation type things. And so, um, one of the first things I did was, um, organise a recreation festival for lesbians. And it was back in the day when [00:05:00] there were lesbians. And then there was everybody else, and we were really into reclaiming or claiming our space and our identity so separate to being, you know, women or feminists. We were lesbians. And I think there was a real, um it was an interesting time because there was there was the separatist movement, which was all about, you know, hating men and denouncing any kind of, you know, straightness and all that kind of stuff. But there was also New age philosophy, which was all [00:05:30] about getting in touch with your inner child and all that kind of stuff. So it was a kind of really weird. I had these amazing arguments and conversations with lesbians who were saying baby boys should be put, you know, should be killed at birth and because they're all gonna be rapists and blah, blah, blah and women who have ever had sperm in their bodies can never identify as lesbian and all this sort of stuff. Um, and so, you know, the conversations would be around, you know? Well, that's kind of a Nazi way of thinking [00:06:00] and, you know, extremist. And how does it benefit us as a community and blah, blah, blah. And then on the other side, we were, you know, weeping tears for our misspent childhoods and, you know, like getting in touch with crystals and weird stuff. It was a very it was a very confusing, mixed up time, but it was It was an interesting time in terms of I think, the movement, you know, like for queer or for lesbians. Um, and it [00:06:30] it's kind of, you know, we look back at it now. I look back at it now and I kind of laugh and think, Oh, but I can and I also understand how important that time was because I think, you know, lesbian visibility was something that was so important. And things have changed. Now, I don't think Yeah, I don't know. I'm kind of I'm kind of torn because I do think sometimes I think lesbian visibility is, um, something that we don't see. Um, [00:07:00] yet, you know, things have changed. I think the younger generation have have made it far more kind of tribal. So it's not just, you know, separatist kind of communities that were working together and yeah. So you were talking about the 19 nineties? Yes. Yes, I remember those. I think we were in the same circles around then. Yeah. Were you living in a lesbian flat or Yeah, um, I had I sort of lurch from, um, [00:07:30] monogamous relationship to monogamous relationship. And of course, you know, being a lesbian moved in after a few months. Um oh, no, actually, not all of them. Um, but yeah. Flattered with lesbians and, um, then lived with girlfriends. And yeah, And you were one of the women's self-defence teachers? Yes. Yeah, I gave it a go. Um, part of my thesis when I was doing my masters was around, [00:08:00] um, looking at recreation programmes that aim to empower young women. And so I followed Jenny Morgan around doing self defence. And, um, she's one of my heroes, by the way. And I just recently told her that so I hope she doesn't mind, um, and got really just yeah. Got really, really interested and involved in it. Um, so I did did the learning. I didn't really, um, finish, you know, I didn't get fully qualified as such, but I did run some [00:08:30] courses for young women who were doing modelling school. And it was a school holiday programme for, you know, school girls that want to get into modelling. And it was a modelling agency, which I thought was a really great thing, that they included self-defense as part of the training. And, um, so I I was working at the council at that time. Um, and we just pop up there at lunchtime in the school holidays and run this hour long session and, um, like years later, I'd have these young you know, gorgeous young woman coming up to me and saying, Oh, I remember [00:09:00] you. You did the self defence course. that changed my life and blah, blah, blah. So, you know, it made me think even an hour of this stuff really makes a difference to to people. Yeah, And I remember you, um, getting in touch with me. I can't even remember the year now, But it must be, like, 12 or 15 years ago, and it was to for us to all meet up. I think it was at, um, Pound during the day, which is really weird, but a pound nightclub and, um, to discuss [00:09:30] this thing, this phenomenon called drag King. Yeah. Can you What sparked that for you? Oh, I think I've been to, you know, like I was going to pound and watching the drag queens and loving what they did. But I've always been one of those. I've always looked and thought, Why aren't women doing things? Why, you know, like I mean things like skateboarding. Why don't more women skateboard all that sort of stuff. So I'm thinking, Why don't lesbians do this stuff? You know, there are so many talented lesbians. Kathy, sheet. You know, there was [00:10:00] all you were doing stuff. There was all sorts of other people that were, um, you know, performing. Um and I thought, let's do something together. And I. I think one of the things I've always wanted to do was like looking at boy bands and thinking. Imagine some really hot dikes doing that stuff. Um, and so I sort of hand picked a few people that I knew were already performing. And, um, you were one of them. And I think that was because you'd, um you'd [00:10:30] won the miss. What? Was it gay Wellington, or was it called? Was it called the Miss Separatist Lesbian? No. So and, um, you know, people were raving about how great you were on stage and that sort of stuff, and you've always been, you know, out there and doing MC sort of stuff. OK, so you got a few of us together. Thanks. So there was, um I think there's about six of us because then people told their friends and flatmates and and it kind of grew from there. Um and of course, we had to have a meeting about it. We couldn't just do [00:11:00] stuff, but really, part of that for me, was about getting the mandate. You know that we could do something like we could organise something together. Yeah. Now, this is pre Internet. Really? So where did you find out about the drag king stuff? I don't actually know. Magazines or a trip to Australia or anything like that. Must have been from magazines, like, you know, like the English diva and all that sort of stuff. They probably Yeah. I don't know, Dr [00:11:30] Kings, because now we can YouTube it, and you can see lots of stuff going on overseas and their websites dedicated to it and so on. But really, at that time, we we didn't have anything to go off. I mean, it was happening overseas, you know, the states were quite big on it, and, um, so, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I just looked at the drag queens and thought, Why aren't doing woman doing this stuff? So, in terms of our own research about it, it was really about us coming up with exactly that [00:12:00] stuff and, um, calling it the drag kings. We were really fortunate because we could just grab the name. That's right. Yeah. It was kind of like a brand that we just grabbed and used. Yeah. So that that group went for well, off and on now, anyway, for, um, 12 years, 13 years or so. And can you remember the first shows and what we put into some of those first shows? Yes. Um, without talking about [00:12:30] No, I'm not gonna go there. I'm still traumatised by that one. I remember we will rock you, which took forever to get the moves right. And they were quite yeah, you know, um, but we did, you know, boy band stuff, really? Just parodying boy bands and being characters. Um, so the first show we ever did was at pound, and that was in 2001, I think. Yeah, I've still got the posters. So I've kept some archives of that, and I have [00:13:00] actually gifted it to on my demise. Um, and then we did our our first full show at blue note. Yeah, um, and I still remember the opening number was one I did, which was I'm a woman. And so I was dressed up, as you know, in this glittery, sparkly frock, and I had my backup boys. Um, I just I loved it. Yeah, we got a pretty good crowd in all those shows. I remember. Yeah, we had quite [00:13:30] an amazing following, actually. And, um, even to this day, you know, people are saying, Oh, when are the Drake is gonna do stuff again? And you know that people still remember us quite fondly. Yeah. Tell us about some of your main characters. Um, I. I really like parody. Like I like looking at how people perform and how they, you know, like people like Tina Turner. He's got such a distinctive sort of style about her and has also been done a lot by drag queens. So I thought, Well, I I'd love to do her, [00:14:00] You know what I mean? Um, and one of the highlights of doing the performance of her once was, um, somebody coming up to me afterwards and saying I could have sworn you were a drag queen. So that whole thing of being a woman dressing up as a man dressing up as a woman, it was kind of like this. Yeah, I was delighted. Um, and then I love doing boy characters, you know, like boy band characters that are kind of, you know, with [00:14:30] a little go and the piercings and and that kind of look, um, and there's something about doing that stuff that you do start to create a whole persona around it and start to become more aware of your own masculinity, I guess. And, um, and part of that, I think is, you know, in our society, masculinity is very much tied up in confidence and self confidence. And so that's, you know, like I Yeah, I felt like I got a lot of sort of, Yeah, confidence [00:15:00] around doing that stuff are the characters that you still want to do? Yeah, actually, my, um, my sister's partner and his 30 year old son from a first marriage. And my 14 year old nephew came down to Wellington on Friday to go to the Billy Idol concert. And so I drove them into town and drove them back again. And all the way we had Billy Idol just rocking the car. And so I came home and Googled, you know, youtubed him [00:15:30] And I thought, Oh, yes. I still want to do Billy Idol. Yeah, he's next. Any particular song Web will yell. That's the best. Yeah, yeah. Um, did you ever get any grief about the drag Kings. There's Yeah, I think, Um, in the last few years, there's been a bit of kind of mumblings about, you know, the, um, binary kind of thing that, you know, um, that we're not I don't know. Yeah, that [00:16:00] that's this is all, you know, the kind of political stuff and that that's cool. And I think as long as, um, people are thinking about it, um, that's great. Let's start discussion. That's what art is about. You know, um, at a recent thing, I did, uh, M and M number, which, um, he starts off as being M and M and cleaning out your closet and then ends up as Diana Ross going. I'm coming out. So it's, you know, stripping away of that kind of tough out exterior persona and actually being queer as fuck. Um, [00:16:30] and somebody posted a photo and then somebody else posted a, um, a comment saying that that that ruined the night for him because Eminem is a homophobic and blah, blah, all that sort of stuff. Um, and, you know, they should have just stuck with, you know, not had had my number in it. And I at first I thought, Oh, that hurt so much. And then I thought, No, this is great. This is really good, because I, I obviously was, you know, good at Impersonating Eminem, which [00:17:00] is great. Um, they have kind of missed the point. But then a lot of people kind of came in and started defending and, you know, and discussing and I thought, This is good. This is what it's about. And the drag kings always did kind of set up a forum for discussion anyway, in terms of what we were doing. And some people probably read us a little bit more deeply than we actually were, but and we went to Melbourne. Yeah. Do you want Do you want to talk about how we what? [00:17:30] It was for us in Melbourne at that time? Um uh, I was I mean, it was a buzz to be involved in something that was, you know, sort of semi international, I guess. And, um, I kind of and I was looking at some of the other acts there and thought, Gosh, we're so different. We're so we're quite unique in what we do and that what the characters that we do, we try to tell a story. You know, we did a lot of group numbers, which you didn't see a lot of [00:18:00] I think the, um the Melbourne ones were very much characters, um, that they'd created, and they'd just be that character. So, um, yeah, and and a lot of their stuff was very it was very Penis oriented. There's a lot, you know, like it's and it's like, that's not the only thing about being male that I, you know? So, um, I liked it that we sort of wore ourselves, but with these different characters. Yeah, and kind of playing. Yeah. [00:18:30] Yeah, I remember us all kind of noticing that because that was really the first time that we'd actually seen a whole lot of other drag kings at this extravaganza and that pretty much every every act ended up with that cock joke, you know? And and we do that occasionally, but it's not. It's never been a real focus of what we've done. Yeah, so, yeah, you set up this quite amazing thing for Wellington and I've got to say we did travel in in New Zealand. So you know, Littleton and [00:19:00] we were We were big in New Zealand. I remember my one of my highlights was actually the top twins coming to see us in Auckland. One of them, I think it was Linda. And, um, I just done Tina Turner and I came off the stage and she was standing sort of by the aisle where we went into the changing area and she was clapping and smiling and she said, Bloody gorgeous. That was a highlight for me. I thought, Wow, if she says that, it must be good. Yeah, you made it well, in the, um, but and Butch photo [00:19:30] exhibition, we took the photo of you in a music shop in town, and we've got a lot of albums behind you. Um, can you talk about the significance of that setting for you? Um, music has always been a big part of my life. I mean, I suppose everybody says that, you know, sort of grew up with, um, you know, lots of different music in my house. I had an older sister and two older brothers and a twin. And, um, so, you know, all had quite different musical [00:20:00] tastes. And I mean, I you know, like I have fond memories of of rifling through records and the weekends. And there's something about records that had, you know, you had your artwork there as well. The covers, Um, but I've always been Yeah, sort of moved and touched by music. And I used to, um, pretend to be, you know, musicians. And it was kind of my happy place to go. And one of them particularly, was Paul Simon. I wanted to be Paul Simon. So I was [00:20:30] I was Paul Simon and I would have confidence. Yeah. Yeah. So music is really important to me. And I love dancing, so you know. Yeah. And you're a DJ. I am a DJ. Part time DJ. Yeah. And what's your DJ name? My DJ name is DJ Bullet. And that's spelled BU. Double L. I TT And it's a play on the fact that I'm a tourist and, um, little L. I TT but also, um I was shot at the first time I ever DJ [00:21:00] Ed. Yes. Yeah. So tell us about that. So, um, I've been going to the dudes dances, which were the, you know, lesbian dances, um, that were held monthly, dikes out of debt, out of debt. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So the lesbian monthly. And, um, I always thought, oh, they should play this song or they should play that song. And I thought, Look, put your money where your mouth is and offer to D. You know, if if I think I'm that good, you know? So I did. And they said, Yeah, come along and do this, You [00:21:30] know, this first one. And so I was, you know, like, I was always listening to music when I was, you know, at home and all that sort of stuff and always dancing like everything I do, I just dance. If I was doing the dishes, I was dancing. When I was coming out of the shower, I was dancing. So, um, the music I listened to I thought was great and really danceable. So I took along my little collection of C DS and realised that actually, not everyone knows these songs just because I do and, you know, love dancing to them. And so it was I was shit, I [00:22:00] was actually quite shit and, um, didn't have a big collection, so I was kind of repeating some songs. Um anyway, so I was the, um where the DJ booth was. It was right by the window to by the, um you know, the road coming up. Yeah, um, but it was upstairs, and I was kind of like, bending over to get a a CD or something. And I felt something just whizz past my head, and I thought that was [00:22:30] weird. Um, and then Oh, and that night was just disastrous. This very drunk woman came up and said, You shit, I'm gonna bash you like she had to be dragged out. Um, I thought, looking back, I thought I don't blame her, but yeah, no, it was a It was a disastrous night. And so then on the Monday I was reading the paper and there was an article about, um, some guys that had been driving up and down Courtney [00:23:00] Place and Tory Street, which is where the the thing was shooting air pistols at bouncers and people were nightclubs. Yeah, So I rang the police and I said, Look, I don't know. It might not be anything. It might be a coincidence, but I, I have a feeling I was shot at on Saturday night. Blah, blah blah. And so they investigated. They went up to the nightclub, and I got this letter from the police that said, We can confirm that the pellet that went past your head was from an air gun blah, blah. Um, the the case [00:23:30] is now closed. But I had this letter, and it's like, Wow, this is a street cred, man. I've been shot at. I'm like a DJ who's been shot at so that then I thought, Well, when it has to be DJ Bullock. Yeah, kind of kind of harrowing, but perfect as well. I will frame it one day. So, um, you you've been on a recent holiday to Thailand or in the last year or so. Yeah, And [00:24:00] you went to stay or help out at a sanctuary for elements. Can you tell us about your interest there? Um, it's something I've always you know, it's one of those bucket list things, and I'd love to go and work on a sanctuary with wild animals and love elephants and, you know, and so it was a few years ago, a friend of a friend had been talking about that she had gone to the sanctuary, so I sat down and talked with her about how do you do it? You know what? How how do you do it? So she told me and she gave me a name of a sanctuary. [00:24:30] Um, and then I thought, I'm gonna be, like, the girlfriend of the century and shout my girlfriend, who also loves animals and is really passionate about animal welfare and, you know, preserving, you know, wild species and all that sort of stuff. Um, I'm gonna shout her for her birthday, a trip to Thailand, to the sanctuary. So, um, it took months and months to do that, and I had to keep it a secret, and it was really, really hard. So I presented it to her on her birthday, and then we had to wait [00:25:00] because her birthday is October. Mine's in May. So we were going on my birthday the following year, so we had to this long way in blah. So anyway, and in the meantime, did lots of kind of like reading and research about just the whole of you know, um, sanctuaries and and the treatment of animals in in Thailand. Especially, um, and so yeah, we went there um, for about two weeks volunteering, and it was absolutely exhausting [00:25:30] getting up at six o'clock every morning and working basically 12 hours on doing really physical stuff, like scrubbing out, you know, pools where the bears would swim. Um, you know, with little wire scrubbing brushes in the middle of the day in Thai heat. And, you know, it was it was, you know, and then feeding out, like, 600 animals, you know, through the day and all that sort of stuff, Um, and learned [00:26:00] so much about the plight of the animals. And also, like, the whole dichotomy of poverty and what that drives people to do. And you know, so, yeah, um, and then that that sanctuary, um, was run by a guy who was a bit of a prick, actually. And so some friends of ours had that were working there. They were paid workers there. Um, he had a big falling out, and I was just Yeah, it was all pretty yucky. And he was doing some stuff behind [00:26:30] the scenes that we didn't know about. And blah blah. Anyway, so we heard about this other sanctuary, which was, um, pretty much, you know, very small and pretty much dedicated to to elephants, um, run by an English woman. And so we my partner and I just looked at each other and said, We're going So we just planned to to go on to this on this trip, and it's just something that, you know, I just It fills my heart. I just you know, I can't actually describe what it's like to actually be around these animals [00:27:00] that I mean, they should be in the wild, But they've been totally abused and, you know, exploited for for tourists. And now they get to live the rest of their lives out and, you know, and freedom and comfort. And, you know, being looked after, um and they what? What blows me away is their resilience and just how that they actually trust human beings after what they've been through. And it kind of teaches you a lot about yourself and about other people and about the world. And hm? [00:27:30] Was it in north Thailand? Um, the first one was south. The second one was kind of halfway between Chiang Mai and Bangkok. Yeah, everyone should go. It's beautiful. And have you stayed connected with them. Yeah, absolutely. On Facebook. And, um, one of the guides there. This lovely woman, Marley, is you know, we we're friends. Like, I've seen her birthday presents, and we're always chatting on Facebook. And, yeah, so, um, going back to the photo exhibition. Um, do [00:28:00] do you want to say a bit about why you got involved in that? It's funny, because I actually feel a bit like a fraud in terms of I don't know, that I identify as Butch as such. And then and then I sort of have to think about is that kind of butch phobia? Is that you know, like, where does what is that? Um what? The reason I wanted to get involved is I saw some fabulous photos from a woman [00:28:30] in San Francisco. Was it? Yeah. And, um, just stunning photos of these, you know, supposedly masculine looking woman who identified as Butch. Um And I thought, Wow, that's I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like that. It was It was raw, and it was real. And it was just beautiful, actually. Um, and somebody said to me, Oh, there's somebody in there who looks like your doppelganger and I had a look, and I thought, Wow, [00:29:00] she's a She's hot. Well, that's great. Um, so when I saw that you were doing it, I thought, Oh, look, I really want to support it. And, um, like, I don't Yeah, it's interesting, because when I came out, it was you had to be one or the other, and if you were or you had to be female, but one or the other, Um, if you were, you were quite marginalised, actually, and there was a lot of crap that kind of went around, you know, woman [00:29:30] who did look straight. You know, I'm doing air quotes. Um, but I've always identified as a tomboy. I always and, um so if there was, you know, there is a continuum. Um, So I'm kind of at the at the boyish end of it, and, um, androgynous and tomboy and and I've always been attracted to, um, not necessarily physically or sexually, but attracted to masculine kind of women. Yeah, [00:30:00] and then it makes me think about what is masculine. And, you know, we all have both or, you know, and all different shades of of that stuff. Um, so I thought you know, it's it's good for me to to do this sort of stuff just to have more of a self exploration, I guess, yeah.
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