This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. You can search the text using Ctrl-F, and you can also play the audio by clicking on a desired timestamp.
Stevie, you were one of the participants in the butch and Butch, um, project which involved you having a photo going up and and having some words that you wrote to go with the photo. Um, can you just let us know why you became involved in that particular project? Ok, um well, initially I was approached, obviously by yourself, um, to be a part of the exhibition. Um, very cautiously, obviously, [00:00:30] um, because you weren't sure whether I identified Butch or not. Um, when you first, um, approached me, it did. It didn't sit very well. Um, it was I was kind of not offended, but, um, a bit shocked because, you know, just based on my own own, um, thinking and that. So what I did was then, um, came back at you and said, Well, as as as a Maori woman, um, you know, we're not brought up thinking or [00:01:00] having having those words within our daily life. You know, we use words like, um, et cetera, um, which talk about us being quite capable women, women that are able to and move, you know, fluidly through male and female roles. If it's needed, especially on the et cetera. Um, so I came back at you and and asked whether you would agree to photograph me based on that, That more that you know, I'm [00:01:30] and for me, you know, that that encompasses a lot of, um what people perceive Butch Butch women or butch people to be. Yeah, it was It was, um, kind of a lesson for me because it was right at the start of the project. And I think after speaking with you, that was when I stopped actually approaching people and just put the word out. So I really thank you for having done that, because that was a big learning curve for me, but, um, but Well, well worth it. Anyway, um, Stevie, are [00:02:00] you able to just tell us a little bit about yourself and where you grew up and a bit about your and so on? Um, I may, um, an artist. Um um, mostly, um, deal with clay. So Maori Clay collective. Um, I'm 35 years old, and I grew up in Cannons Creek in, um, my is from Hicks Bay, and, um, and we come from [00:02:30] a very strong, um, family, and we're a chief line um I'm one of eight Children, and there's 77 left. Um, but I'm an only child to my mom and dad. So can work. That one. Good Kiwi family. Um, I was a a sports sports person in another life, Um, played softball in the states and, um, for New Zealand and, um [00:03:00] yeah, and then retired from that and decided to follow my dream as an artist, which I'm doing today. So And what What direction is your arts going in? Um, at the moment, um, I'm working on. I use clay. Like as if it is skin. So it's just a natural progression into tattooing. So, um, obviously, but, um, based on my work with the clay, um, I'm actually I mix so I take [00:03:30] pacific patterns that people might see as being very Pacific island rather than Maori. But I take it that, you know, I look at patterns that we would have used before we got to New Zealand. Um, you know, before we were in, um and also there's so many commonalities. It's just the way we put things together. So doing that on the skin has always been a dream. I've always wanted to be a tattooist? Um, yeah, and I by using the word tattoo rather than I think that it won't it won't be put [00:04:00] into such a tight box as well, you know? So it will allow me to be more of who I am, too. Um, you know, especially, um, being a openly gay Maori artist is is is a big thing. It's not something that's that's openly talked about, um or, you know, acknowledged. Um, so, yeah, so being a tattooist allows me to be who I am. Really? Yeah. How was it for you? As, uh, you were growing up [00:04:30] identifying as as gay? Um, I probably if I'm honest. I knew very early in life. Um, probably, I don't know. Around five years old, I think my earliest memory. Um when I when I was six, my parents split up and I I lived with my dad, um, and he couldn't brush my hair so my long hair got cut off, and probably I was a lot. I was probably happy with that as well. Um, and my dad [00:05:00] would take me to, you know, farmers and dress me in boys clothes, you know, and it was just something you know, I had I always I loved it because I didn't like wearing dresses because it just didn't fit with me. You know, I'm always out there playing around, but, um, What I did find that, you know, I had experiences, like peeing my pants because I was so afraid to go to the bathroom in in places because the woman would tell me off and tell me to get out of the toilet, you know, because I was a boy, you know, and [00:05:30] having to explain that I was a girl, and it's quite finding when you were a kid to have those experience. So I used to hold on as much as I could. You know, not to have to experience that from adults. It was quite daunting and a horrible experience for me, but also, there were a lot of advantages. You know, I learned a lot of things that I probably wouldn't have learned. Um, you know, my dad was a roofer, so I learned to to do things with my hands and, um, yeah, so But my mom was a strong woman, [00:06:00] too, so she taught me on the other end of things to be really strong. Um, Maori Maori girl. Um, yeah. Did it seem to you that your dad was just being really supportive of you being you? Um, I'm not sure, actually. I've never thought of that. I know that when I finally did come out, um, I was, uh, in my early twenties. I just came back from the States. Um, he cried. Apparently, you know, he thought it was his fault, actually, because [00:06:30] of the way he brought me up, you know, because I did live with him and he he brought me up the only way he knew, You know, it wasn't great, but at the same time, you know? Well, it's made me who I am today. So you know, all your experiences in their childhood and teenage years make you who you are. So yeah, And in the states, you're playing softball. Tell us a little bit about that and how things were there for you. Because that's a bit of a you might not identify directly as [00:07:00] a butcher as a bit of a butch enclave for that one. Yeah, um, I was actually straight when I left New Zealand. Well, that's what people think. Um, but yeah. Going to the States and people not knowing me and who I was other than being a softball. Um, you know, it allowed me to Probably for the first time in my life, Um, be who I wanted to be, you know, Um, so, um, I pretty [00:07:30] much Well, I suppose you couldn't. You can't come out if no one knows who you are, but, um, yeah, so I started, um, seeing women, um, and and came out in the states. Um, but it was, um I was there for two years and then had to come back to New Zealand and and fame, um, face a gauntlet of family and friends. Um, so yeah, that was that was an interesting experience. Um, but yeah. Um, because I played softball, you know, in [00:08:00] university and and also some, um you know, you I. I knew a lot of girls that were gay that aren't that are married now. You know, I think it was because it's such such an intense environment because you're with the same people constantly. So it was interesting. It was a very different kind of community from New Zealand's gay community, which I had always been a part of through softball in New Zealand, playing women's ball from the age of 12, [00:08:30] you're exposed to it really early. And my my dad's, um, brothers gay. So, you know, So it was never something we didn't talk about within our family, but yeah, so but being in the States and yeah, it was an interesting experience, just in general, I think, And being in university, you know, the stuff you see in the movies, it does really happen, you know? So but yeah, and and And so, um, it's not It wasn't It's not really typically a butch sport [00:09:00] in the States because I think for, you know, a lot of a lot of girls over there. You You know, you're you're 22 you're at university. You're still really under the thumb of your family. So you you're playing the game. You know, you're you're being very feminine, et cetera. So it wasn't actually till I came back to New Zealand. Um, that you started to see that, um, with the softball players being more butch. But at the same time, we used to just think we were all just athletic, You know, we're sporty people, [00:09:30] so we didn't ever see that term. So for us, the butch ones were the ones that played for the Amazons, and those are the ones that we stayed away from, because no way were we Butch and this and that, you know? And before I came out, none of us were gay. And I think at one point, maybe in one of the teams I played for maybe in the end, 10 out of 14 of us ended up being gay. So, you know, it was definitely a stigma thing that none of us wanted to go there at all. And then, you know, and I think that [00:10:00] probably, um it it shaped my thinking because I really wanted to avoid that. I didn't like to be associated as being butch, you know, it's it's only very recently, um, probably that I feel comfortable even just being around a butch woman and and having people maybe think I am as well. Um, you know, there was something I was really conscious of. Um, you know, maybe something I'm not that proud of. But also, [00:10:30] you know, your environment shapes your thinking and what you think, Um and yeah. So, um yeah, this was a good exhibition for me, actually, it it it meant that I needed to really step outside of my comfort zone to to be a part of it. Yeah. Did you get feedback from friends about being in it and what you'd said about being in it? Um, it was an interesting topic to bring up with [00:11:00] people. It was quite interesting because it made me realise, too, that my perception of myself where I think everyone thinks I'm bitch because, you know, you're in the store and they don't even look at you. And they're like, Can I help you, sir? And I think sometimes it's only because of my size because I'm tall and broad. And, um, so, you know, a lot of them were like, Oh, but you're not Butch. And so that was really interesting. Yeah, it was quite nice because, but, you know, I know that sounds ridiculous, but yeah, it made me see that. Oh, you know, just [00:11:30] because you may think that and you have that opinion that everyone thinks you're butch, you know, because you don't wear girly clothes and that the society is not as small minded. Or maybe, you know, just I have some good friends. Yeah, so but no, they were quite supportive, and they thought it was really brave. And they were actually quite interested in the concept in general. Um, I went on a, um, artists, um, cross culture exchange in Australia, And I was telling some of the [00:12:00] other female Maori artists about this exhibition and they they were really interested. They want to see photos, you know, And they really liked the way that I approached you, you know, about the tour and and they they actually started conversations within us about what we see what is and what people perceive Butch to be in general, you know, which is, you know, the questions that you were asking in the exhibition, you know? So yeah, and and they were saying, Well, what is Butch? [00:12:30] You know, And these are these were straight women, you know? So it was a really cool way of starting dialogue, and yes, so they they, um they were quite supportive. And then they saw the photo too. And they they they really liked it, so they thought it was cool. um, especially having been dressed up in a more traditional way is what maybe we think is, you know, um so having that having been dressed by Suzanne Tamaki. And, [00:13:00] um um what what's it called? Art cost costume art, I think. Yeah. Can you talk about some of the the way that you were dressed for it Because you definitely had certain symbols and things with you? Um, yeah. Can you just talk to it a bit? Uh, yeah. So I thought when I when I, um we confirmed the concept. So I went to Suzanne and talked to her about it, and we thought, Right, Well, we're gonna dress me up as a female warrior, you know? So I I [00:13:30] brought with me. I had a, um, a belt. Um, that was made in the old, old weaving, um, tradition. And they would have used that, um, in the old days to put their pat etcetera and and it And it was it would wrap around so that it protected your, um, kidneys, et cetera, if you were attacked. Um, so I wore that, and I had some of, um, Suzanne's blankets on. Um and I had a that. Actually, [00:14:00] I've had since I was a little kid that was given to me by my grandmother. So that was really special to be able to wear. And, um, then we just had some green on and bone carving, so we just really dressed it up. You know, um, it may not have been typically traditional, but it was, you know, it was a concept. Um, and then we had, um I was wearing a waistcoat, so that was kind of a to the whole colonised, [00:14:30] um, era, um, which is one of Suzanne's specialties. Um, yeah. And then I had my hair out. So it was quite interesting because we wanted to dress me in a really strong, you know, way. But it was actually probably the most feminine I'd looked in a very long time, which was quite amusing for Suzanne. And you, um, just talking a bit more about your art do, um, the [00:15:00] expressions of masculinity and femininity in it. How How does that flow for you? Or or does it? Yeah, well, like that. We've always believed I was always brought up. You know, things. The world's always got to be balanced. And so you always do need your masculine with your feminine, Um, and like when I've done shows or bodies of work, I've always made sure there's There's, um My work is very female, Um, directed, [00:15:30] um, but there's always got to be an element of masculinity in there, whether it's AAA male object or sculpture in some sense, or if it's just a more masculine, female directed sculpture. Um, so, yeah, I. I think that's really important. And I think Clay two is seen as quite hard, but can be also very soft material. Um, so, yeah, so it's It's very evident in my works. What [00:16:00] are your plans for the future? What? What have you got coming up? Um um, in April, I'm actually off to the States again. Um, and I'm I'm heading over to, um, Santa Fe, um, to stay on the Santa Clara reservation. Um, which is the, um, pub Pueblo? Um, native Americans, Um, and it's under an internship with a foundation over there. Um, where [00:16:30] you work on the land and you learn about permaculture, and you learn about the traditional ways that they planted. Um, their crops. Um, you know how they collect their seeds. Um, being on a reservation, they actually are exempt in the States from having to use genetically modified um, seeds. So they use the old seeds they use. You know, they they're growing crops that, you know, go right back, um, and and they and they're continuing because the other thing is, you're not allowed [00:17:00] to stock or stockpile seeds over there as well. So you know, it's It's it's it's rare. So that in itself is gonna be a privilege. Um, and then I'll be working, um, fixing and building, um, adobe housing and just helping out in the community, etcetera. Um, so that's one side of it. But the other side of it is I'll be working with, um, an artist. Um um Rose be Simpson, who's actually the daughter of a very famous [00:17:30] sculptor named Roxanne. Swin, Um, and Rose been, um, is very accomplished and is becoming quite famous in herself, um, and is actually in a movie that's been released this year called A 1000 Voices, um, which talks about, um, Native American women and how they were always told by the missionaries, et cetera that they were equal to men when actually before that they actually had a belief that they [00:18:00] were actually higher than men. They were the ones that own the land. They were the ones that work the land. They were the ones that were out with the crops and the animals, et cetera. So it's just talking about those old ways and and reclaiming that, which seems to be quite a big thing at the moment in the world is where a woman is deciding that actually, you know the world. And again it's the balance thing that the world is out of balance and to rebalance it, the woman have to now take control and heal it. Um, and I know even within [00:18:30] Maori, that's starting to happen and teaching our women that you know they're not crazy or that they're hearing things that they're actually, it's the spirit, you know, and healing that spiritual side. And I think that's quite important. So, um, just from the spirit thing, So what me and Rose are gonna be doing is creating a body of work which explores, um what what being too spirited is in this and for the Native Americans, what they say is that if [00:19:00] you are um, gay, um, lesbian, um, transgender et cetera. That you're too spirit. So you have both a male and female element. Um, and so we're gonna be looking at that. And which is the Maori word for it? Um, And how? How? How How we can show that in a body of work, you know, you're taking a negative and a positive, like yin and yang and and just exploring [00:19:30] that and starting a conversation with clay. Um, you know, using clay and metal together, um, and you and then in some ways, you know, it's a pueblo culture in the Maori culture, so using clay, So using, um you know, um on on her bodies of work and creating and what we want to do is actually create a body of work as in creating armour that can be worn. You know, that that that shows and for Rose, too. She's [00:20:00] She wears her patterns on her skin, which is not overly accepted. It's it's not. She's, you know, she said to me, it's not traditional, in a sense, but it is. And so what she's trying to do is, is is show them So what we want to do is is carve those patterns into the into the skin of these sculptures, you know, and just start huge conversations about it. That sounds really [00:20:30] exciting. Have you got other plans beyond that? If that's, you know, a couple of months and where that might take you or other plans for the future? Um, well, what I want to do, because Because I I did grow up in and I've come back to, um, recently over Christmas. I want to actually come back to, and I want to start working with the community, and I want to start giving back. Um um and one of the things I've been talking to, um, people [00:21:00] about is is going into some of the schools, um, and and teaching them how to start seed banks, you know, and and because, you know, there's that whole thing at the moment in the primary schools where they're growing the gardens and they're teaching the kids how to how to cook with what they're growing, you know, And and I wanna jump on board with that. But also, I want to come back, and I wanna I wanna keep the conversation going That me and Rose start and and do something back here, Um, and and something that, [00:21:30] actually, um, Elizabeth have originally had the idea of, um and I think it still needs to be done. Is having an exhibition of, um, female Maori artists that are, um, that are, and they are willing to say I am. And that's actually never happened before. So there's never been an exhibition, and she saw that. So it's really her baby, but I think it needs to be done. And, um, I know that was really interested [00:22:00] in doing that. Um, so I think, Yeah, just working. And maybe that could be something where, you know, Rose hopefully could come over. I know that Nick, um, who's a said that he would be very, very happy to endorse that he was really supportive of that. And it's really important, especially in a community that's very Maori and Pacific based. We are being, um, is is alive and well, you know, it's very prevalent. It's very [00:22:30] open. Um, and we need, you know, and he sees it and wants to support it. You've mentioned some people who are the influencers around you right now. Who are those who are the people? Um, at the moment, um, I have quite a few in influence influences, Um, working with the clay I. I did II. I was taught by, um, an artist called, um, but, uh, one of my biggest influence. And the person that [00:23:00] I quite admire is, um um who who probably is the first Maori artist that I ever met That was openly gay, um, and that that never had that, you know, And it's a part of who she is. It's not a thing. It's just she lives her life. Um, and she and she really loved that whole concept of as well. And she was the person I actually spoke to before I agreed to do the photographic exhibition. Um, um, you know, and and she [00:23:30] did think, Yeah, because there needs. There's no place for the word, but, you know, because there's more. We're more than you know, not more than that. But there's more to it, you know. And these layers, so really does does for us explaining, you know, some Maori words you can't translate into English because you'd have to say 10 English words to get the real meaning of it. Yeah. So, um, and Suzanne Tamaki, um, when I've come, I've come back to Wellington, and she's been [00:24:00] really supportive of me coming back. Um, she she doesn't do clay or anything like that, but just in her ideal ideas and her brave, she's brave, you know? She's quite brave and out there, and and And it's making me be a bit more brave and, you know, and having her support again to do this exhibition was, um the butch and Butch photographic exhibition was Really, um, yeah, I don't know if I would have done it. Maybe without her. Um, [00:24:30] yeah. And I'm also, um, yeah, I'm always at, so I'm I'm quite I'm I think I'm part of the furniture now. Um, So Margaret Tolin has been really a really big, um, supportive support person for me, actually, in a lot of ways, personally and with my work, um, she's just really trying to push me to start, you know, exploring more and having more faith in my own artwork, et cetera. Um, and she was actually the one that [00:25:00] changed my perception of butch woman. You know, um, taking it from a probably a naive thinking from my softball days and and being around her, you know, having been part of the drag kings, um, meeting meeting you through Margaret and, um, and others that were from that truth. And also just other people within the community that that identify as Butch, you know, and and realising that there's more to them than what they you know, just looking and [00:25:30] judging people on how they look. And I think we forget sometimes that, um although we don't want people to judge us, we judge others. Um, and I always knew I was a bit of a hypocrite in that sense. So she really opened my horizons, introduced me to more people. Um, and it's and it's only been for the better, really.
This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
Tags