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Sarah, Uh, you you were involved in the butch on Butch Photo Project, and that was fantastic. I was really thrilled when you when you came forward about that. Can you give us an idea of about why you wanted to be involved in the project? Yeah, I don't know. It's kind of it's kind of tricky. I just I guess ultimately what it boiled down to was the fact that it was you that was doing it. And it was someone that I felt I could trust, someone that I knew had an understanding of being butch and what that means. [00:00:30] And so that kind of just really made me feel comfortable and made me made me. I'm volunteer and want to do it. Really? Oh, thanks. It's not actually not actually the answer I was expecting, but I'll take that, Um the the photo that we ended up taking was it was based on your idea, and we went into, um, into some bush around Wellington and, uh, set up quite a stylized photo. Do you Would you like to take us through [00:01:00] that? Because it was really your idea about how you wanted to be seen and and, um and really, you controlled that shoot. So can you just take us through what you're wanting to do with that photo? Um, yeah. Um, my Celtic hereditary is quite important to me. Um, it's a strong part of my how I how I identified so wearing my kilt was quite, um, important to me, I guess. Oh, well, it's my It's my family tartan. Um, yeah. It's [00:01:30] just something I'm really proud to to wear. Really? Yeah. Do you get much chance to wear it? No, Um I reserve it just for special occasions. So this is That's the first time I've worn it, I think since my graduation in 2002 and you're wearing some other kits that looks fairly Celtic too. Tell us about that. Um, I guess you're referring to this foreign. I thought it was a me, but there you go. I'm sure it's been referred to one of those before. Um, [00:02:00] yeah, that's that's, um yeah, just a, um, referred to often as a man's purse. Um, yeah. I don't know. Really What, what more to say about those? Um well, that's that's quite a decision for you anyway. To be making to wear a man's purse as such. So that's part of the amid. You wanting to be tray with this? So Yeah, I think so. Um, yeah. I mean, there's a whole lot of regalia that can that can go with wearing a kilt. [00:02:30] There's proper socks and and, um, uh, a skiing do, which is a knife, Um, and then the upper clothing is quite specific as well. But, um, I don't possess a lot for a start, but I think the the for me is I don't know what it is. It represents something, I guess, But I just think for particularly for that shoot. But just generally, if I when I do wear it, I always make sure that I've got a spir on. Yeah, [00:03:00] cool. And I'm I'm looking at the photo now, and I can see quite a collection. Um, of necklaces. Can you talk to those? Yeah. Um, well, as I've got a, um, my lab bone carving, which was, um, made for me by a friend of mine for my 25th birthday. So I've got I wear three things, and I wear them all the time. I've got the, um a Celtic, um, knot the pendant that my mom bought me for my 40th birthday. So that represents [00:03:30] my Celtic heritage along with the kilt. But obviously the the necklace is there all the time. I've got a, um, the lari, which represents my identity as a lesbian. And then I've got a, um, a Greenstone ads, um, which was a was gifted to me, and that's just represents my, um, New Zealand side of my family and my new being as being someone who came to live in New Zealand from somewhere else. Yeah. Where where did you come from? Tell us a bit about [00:04:00] your background. I'm from the UK. Originally, I was born in London. My mum married an Englishman, and I was born nine months after the honeymoon. Um, I don't know it. It's kind of weird. It's not something I. I mean, it's something that I'm aware of, obviously, but it's not something that I don't think For me Plays plays a big part of who I am. I mean, maybe other people see me [00:04:30] in that sense. I don't really know, but I've got Scottish heritage and I've got born in England, obviously came here when I was 17 with my mum and New Zealand has become my home. My mum and sister went back to the UK for a number of years. My sister still lives there. My mom returned about three years ago, but I've always stayed here in New Zealand's home. It's I love being in New Zealand. I love being here, and I love the life that I've developed for myself as a result of being here. When you first came to New Zealand, [00:05:00] where did you come to live? Uh, Auckland, and I hated it. I'd been here a couple of times before, once after my dad died, and then again when my grandfather was dying. And to me it was a small that was like a late seventies and early eighties with the Times. The times I came, it was just a small little backward out of the way country, and I hated it. So when Mum said we're moving here, it was like, No, I tried everything I could, she said. Well, if you can find a job, you can stay here. But I couldn't find a job, so I had to come with her. [00:05:30] But as time has gone on and the country's changed and I've changed I. I wouldn't have it any other way. I would never go back to live. Yeah, I think New Zealand is the best place to live. And I love being in Wellington particularly. Why did you move to Wellington? Um, to be honest, I moved to Wellington for study. Um, I wanted to be studying at, um, the, uh, heart of politics. What I thought was the heart of politics, Capital city, where seat of government is. And I thought it would be more politically active, and I could [00:06:00] get more engaged with that kind of stuff. Um, I also came here with the original plan of doing the, um, Masters in creative writing at Vic, But that's a really hard place. Hard, hard, um, course to get into. So I wasn't accepted, but I did. I did other things instead, but yeah, that's pretty much what brought me here. But I've been here 10 years now and couldn't live anywhere else. I love it. So So what is it about, uh, Wellington and the political scene here and who you have [00:06:30] connections with here that, um, that kind of keeps you going. Wellington just feels like home. It just feels like the right place to be. And there's always there's always something going on. If you look for it. I mean, like, today, when on the TPP a march? Um, that's my politics is really important to me. It's part of who I am, and, um, so there's always something to engage in if you want to. Or if you don't. If you can't find anything to engage with, it's really quite easy to find other people like minded people and create something yourself. [00:07:00] So being politically connected and being connected to the community are really important things to me. So on the political spectrum, what what's what gets you workers rights. Get me human rights. Get me, um, anything to do with the with people being, um, oppressed and fighting for the underdog. That's what gets me. Yeah, that's what you know, challenging the capitalist corporate norm. [00:07:30] That kind of stuff is is important and and everybody having a right to to live their life that they want to. Yeah, and so are you involved in groups in Wellington that help you do that? Yeah, definitely. Um, I haven't. I haven't been as active with the TPPS stuff as I probably would like to be, but I'm doing things about that. But yeah, um, Wellington gay welfare group is probably the one that springs to mind the most. Um, we've been doing a lot of stuff, [00:08:00] especially over the last sort of two or three years and funding different groups and helping people out with making a change to Wellington community. And that's that's really cool to be able to do that. Um, queer Avengers are on a bit of a hiatus at the moment. Um, I was heavily involved in that. That was a really important organisation at the time. We did a lot of activism around transphobia and bullying in schools. Um, yeah, that kind of stuff is important. And so [00:08:30] yeah, so the the involvement in, um, in collective action has been something that that's driven you for a while. Um, do you see anything in in yourself in terms of how you are as, uh, with a butch identity being expressed at all through this or having a foundation in this at all? That's a difficult one to answer, because, I mean, I identify as Butch, and that's why I was in this, obviously, but [00:09:00] it's just part and parcel of who I am. So I am Butch. I represent as Butch. I am Butch. Therefore, I am kind of thing, and it probably does have a part of of the political action that I take. But I guess I don't do it because of the butcher identity. It just it just it's just there because that's just who I am. Yeah. Would you like to read what you wrote for the narrative that went with your photo? Sure, it's difficult to explain what it means [00:09:30] for me being butch. It is just how I am kind of like trying to explain what it's like to be human. I cannot imagine being anything else. I've been mistaken for the male of the species many times as far back as I can remember. I still am during my teens and twenties. It used to bother me, but as I have gotten older, I have learned to have fun with it. It's fascinating to see how the straight world reacts to me. So yeah, hard to put into words what being butch means to me. I just am the this bit about, um, about the straight world reacting [00:10:00] to you. Can you give some examples of how you've experienced that? Um oh, just I remember. Actually, one time, one of the first visits conscious visits I have coming to New Zealand. I was 12. My father had just died. So Mom brought us back here to be with her family for a while. And I remember being, um, in a department store in Tauranga and had gone to use the bathrooms. And, you know, a lot of us experienced This is the girls room. What are you doing in here? [00:10:30] And being a shy 12 year old who just lost her father? I didn't have a what I would kind of response that I would have today, but just Yeah, a lot of stuff like that. Um, I remember when I was a bit older, I was about 17 or 18. I think I was in a pub with, um there a couple of other friends and, um, some guy coming up to me. And so my friend really likes you. She thinks you're a really cute guy, and I was like, Yeah, no, sorry. So he's scurried off, All embarrassed, [00:11:00] but just Yeah, that kind of stuff. And, you know, the sir or the mate All that kind of typical stuff that a lot of us experience. Um, yeah. As I say, it used to bother me. But now it's just like, you know, get over it. 21st century. For goodness sake, stop trying to put your ideals on. What? Someone should represent what society thinks someone should look like on everybody, because it's rubbish. Do you find yourself saying that to people or just let it roll off? No. These days I challenge it. Um, I remember the first [00:11:30] time I ever challenged it. Actually, I was doing a, um uh, unemployment training scheme thing up in Auckland. Um, uh, I can't remember the name of the college now, anyway. And I was when I was used to ride a motorbike and I had quite a big bike and I pulled into the car park one morning and, um, this other guy was getting off his bike at the same time. Oh, that's a big bike for a girl. I just turn and said, Fuck off the kid. It's not Yeah, just something along those lines. [00:12:00] I was angry because at that point I was an angry wee person, so I just Yeah, I just ripped into him and told him that he needs to grow up. And why can't a woman ride a big bike? What the folks have got to do with anything, You know, I can ride it. I can handle it. So what? It doesn't matter whether I'm a man or a woman, or I don't identify as anything. I can ride the bike. That's all it matters. Yeah. So, yeah, I tend to probably not quite so aggressive these days. Not quite so angry about it, But I don't let people get away with it. If people say something [00:12:30] to me, I will challenge them on it. And maybe you know something like, Well, just because I don't fit what you consider to be the standards, not my problem. Your problem? Do you, um are you around other Butch, um, people much these days? Like actively around people? Um, I guess so, Yeah. I mean, they're just just my friends who are there, and some of them identify as Butch and yeah, some of them don't and [00:13:00] I don't, um, purposely go to way to seek other butch people. They just in the circles that I associate with that they're there as well. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was quite interesting in the, um, in the project that there are about 20 people involved. And there was such a range of people from those who just saw themselves as labelled as butch but not necessarily identifying that to others who are, um, quite happy really, To to have that as an identity. [00:13:30] Yeah, I guess it's part and parcel of what's come along with the development and the changes in the growth and the more acceptance of queer people and that people now are more comfortable to to to say, Yeah, I identify as Butch or other people see me as Butch, but I don't take that label myself. It's just there is. I don't know if it's just a Wellington thing or just a New Zealand thing or what, but there is. I think there's a lot I mean for some people. I guess some people other people still struggle. [00:14:00] But there is for me. It seems, it seems there's more of an acceptance of people being able to identify how they want to rather than the binary. Because the binary sucks, too, which Butch and FM is. The dynamic is part of that. But, um, it's a different aspect of it. It's not the same as a straight dynamic. It's quite it's quite different. So, yeah, I just think it's there just seems to be a lot more acceptance and a lot more understanding, And people just [00:14:30] can be who they need to be, which is, I think is cool. Do you have the butch fem dynamic in your life? Yes, How does that show itself? Well, um, yeah, clearly, I'm very butch and my girlfriend is very fem, and it's actually to be honest with you. It's quite a new thing for me. I've had girlfriends in the past who have not identified FM, [00:15:00] so it's been a learning curve, to say the least, but it's cool. I really like it, and it's made me more proud of being who I am, too. I made. It's made me having someone who appreciates me for my butch is a really nice thing to experience. There's there's some critique that you hear sometimes around, um around, but and, um uh, and and And that dynamic and around, but perhaps taking up space and those sorts of things. Have [00:15:30] you ever had been involved in those sorts of discussions? Um, I haven't personally, but I know that it it it is challenging, but I think it's that's part of the whole. It's part of the whole spectrum, I suppose. And it's about allowing everybody to identify how they want to and express themselves how they want to. But you've got to, but at the same time making sure everyone has space to do that, because I yeah, I know. I've heard of horror stories from the seventies [00:16:00] with Butch women taking over feminist spaces and and being quite oppressive and I. I like to think that that doesn't happen quite as much, or at least as over as overtly as it might have done. Once I could be naive about that. I like to make sure I don't. I mean, I don't see it for me. I don't see it as my as a part of my butchers. I just think it's fair just for me personally that everybody is given a right to have [00:16:30] a space and to have their say when they need to. Yeah, the groups that, um you say that you say you've been involved in gay welfare? Wellington. Wellington, Wellington Gay Welfare Group. Sorry about that. Um, and and the support that they're giving groups around town. Can you speak a little bit more to that? Um, it started out as a help line back in the early eighties, [00:17:00] but that need seems to have drifted away over the over the last few years. So that side of things has really gotten a lot quiet. A lot more quiet. So now we focus more on, um, funding where we can we, um, still run the, um, Peter Cuthbert Trust, which is specifically for, um, financial assistance for men with HIV. But, um, so we've got a legacy that from for that to do to do with that, but yeah, we try. We can't. We haven't done much in the way of, [00:17:30] um, fundraising at the of late, but we try to, um, distribute any money. So, you know, if people approach us, people from the community can approach us and say, Hey, we need money for this. This is what What? We're gonna do with it. This is how much we need. Is it something that you guys think you could help out with? And most of the time we do. So yeah, we're kind of shifting gear a little bit, becoming more of a, um, funding operation and gonna see how that how that works out and what we can do around that. And I think so. That's probably [00:18:00] gonna be more of our focus. I know that. You've, um you've been involved in helping, say, schools out. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, Um, schools, schools out is a group that, um well, I think our welfare has supported right from the beginning. Um, it's a group, um, for youth by youth. Uh, they're branching out a little bit more on their own these days, so they just rely more on us for the charity status and the funding side [00:18:30] of things. So which is really cool because they've managed to take off and be their own entity, which is amazing. So, yeah, we just help out with that where we can when they need us to, um that we I guess you could probably say go we A group is more of an umbrella organisation now, and they're definitely our probably our biggest group under the umbrella. So, um, it's been really nice to see them develop over the years and become their own thing. And, um, focus on what? You know the needs of youth. [00:19:00] Um, we've also been in a position where we've been able to help out with funding for paid positions. Um, unfortunately, we haven't been able to get ourselves into a position where we can continue to pay someone in an employed role in in that, um, organisation. It would be good if we can get around to that so they can be a continual thing rather than just short term temporary employment. But, yeah, it's been good to be able to do that when we can Do you have Do you have a, um, any thoughts generally around [00:19:30] how the community in Wellington or the communities in Wellington do act to support each other or what they could do more? It's kind of a curly one that because I guess ultimately, we're not really communities as such. We come together when there's a need, which is really good, because that would be even make the situation even worse if we couldn't even do that. But we do. We see whenever something comes up, whether it's a need for funding or whether [00:20:00] it's a need for activism or support or something, we all seem to rally around and come together and help out when the cry is put out. In an ideal world, it would be great that we didn't have to do any of this, where we could just be just be and just exist. And there'd be plenty of funding for anybody that needed it. You know, like in Australia, they've got they get millions of dollars from government for for supporting stuff. I mean, if we had access to that, it would be brilliant. So, yeah, in an ideal world, fantastic. But unfortunately, it's not the situation. [00:20:30] And we do what we can when we need when we need to. And I think that's actually quite nice. Really? Yeah. Now, um, about your studies tell us about a bit about that. Crikey. Um, well, it took longer than it was meant to. Um, I just completed a master's degree in gender and women studies. The last person Victoria University to graduate from the Gender Women Studies Department with a master's degree. So that's kind of cool. And I did an examination of, um, the experiences [00:21:00] of, Well, the official title is, um, an investigation to the the homophobic heteros culture of tertiary accommodation. So, in a nutshell, I was looking at how hetero, sexist student hostels are because I've done, uh, worked in them for about four years and not only experienced homophobia myself, but watched witnessed other people younger people experiencing it. [00:21:30] So I thought, Well, there's lots of, well, not lots. There's some in and some stuff studies done overseas. We needed one here in New Zealand, so I did it. There was a gap in the literature, so that's what I did. It took me four years in the end. Yeah, And what were your findings? Basically that, um Well, yeah, there there there is homophobic and heterosexual experienced in hostels. Generally, the situation is that [00:22:00] it's not intentional. It's just that, um, the people who run the hostels don't take a minute to just sit back and see how they can be more open and more accepting to people who don't identify as straight so, uh, yeah, And so one of the one of the recommendations I've made is that they need to have more diversity training within the hostels so that people you don't I mean, the the the big assumption is everybody that walks through the door is straight. That's that. And so that's how they do everything. Everything [00:22:30] they organise everything they plan is all around the fact that they just assume everybody's straight. So I just wanted to try and point out that actually, it's a bit of a sucky, sucky assumption to make who did, Um, who's been able to access your research or who's been interested in it? Uh, nobody at the moment, because I haven't actually handed in the final version to the library. But once I do that, there'll be, um, a copy online and one in the libraries in the Victoria Library. So anybody were to get hold of it. [00:23:00] Um, I've, um, had one person already ask me when it'll be ready so they can use it for some research that they're producing themselves up in Hamilton, a good friend of mine. So that's cool. I'm hoping to um, publish it in some, um There's a couple of magazines that go around for student hostels. It'd be nice to get some stuff in there, so, yeah, be available to anybody who wants to have a look. Were you talking to residents and, um, to the what are they called? The residential [00:23:30] assistants and others or who? Who was involved in it? No, I didn't talk to any of this. The official staff. I did it through, um, an online questionnaire with the students. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that was challenging in itself. I had to, um, do it twice, because the first time I publish publicised, it didn't get much of a take up, but, um, yeah, I managed to get quite a few people in the end, so it was just asking everybody Anybody [00:24:00] that in the hall who wanted to take part in it. You didn't have to identify it as, um um, queer in any way because I wanted to get a broad response so that, um I could show from their responses that this is the way these people think. And this is why this kind of stuff is challenging if you don't identify as heterosexual. So yeah. And were you looking at, um, universities across the residential halls across New [00:24:30] Zealand. Or was it mostly Wellington or initially, it was gonna be across New Zealand, but due to health reasons, I had to, um, reduce that. So, yeah, we ended up just being Victoria, actually, in the end, Yeah, right. So they'll be interested in in your findings when it comes out. I hope they bloody will be. They should be, but yeah. Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I mean, that's what it's about, I guess, Isn't it? Is having someone who said Who's you know, who's someone who identifies as queer [00:25:00] doing queer research so that people who don't have an understanding of what that means can take a look at it and think, Oh, yeah, we can implement that in our place because that's easy. That's straightforward. There's no reason why we can't do that. Hopefully, that'll happen. What? What sort of work are you involved in? Um, I'm a research assistant with Otago Medical School here in Wellington. And we are, um we look at housing, so we look at safety aspects of housing. [00:25:30] Um, act, uh, who gets to who gets to live in a house. How easy that is to do. Um, we look at one of the big things that we're looking at at the moment is social housing and what the government's doing to basically destroy that? So we're trying to point out why it's important to have social housing and why it's needed and why the state needs to hang on to it. Yeah, but I'm also hoping to do my bit of research later in the year specifically related [00:26:00] to homeless issues for LGBTI people. So that'd be really cool if I can pull that off great. And what's What's your interest there? What sparked that? Um again, that's probably my involvement with, um Wellington Gay Welfare Group. Um, we've had a number of cases over the last sort of 3 to 4 years of, um, young people being thrown out of home because they identify as trans or queer and the parents can't handle it. So they kick them out and they've got nowhere to go and got no one to turn [00:26:30] to. Nothing. So we've helped out where we can. And so, yeah, that's that's pretty much picked my interest. And, um, again, there's a bit of stuff going on overseas. So we need to do it here. I find I found I've learned in the work that I've been doing for the last three years, that New Zealand tends to copy everywhere else 10 years later. So my my argument is, Well, why wait 10 years? We need it now let's do something about it now. So I'm hoping to better [00:27:00] do some research and explain why it's necessary and why it's important to have emergency housing, at the very least. Yeah, um, in in your experience of, um, how the community rallies around, have you seen them rally around those sorts of situations where someone, a young person is homeless and needing help? Yeah, for sure. Um, we've got quite a few contacts within WG where, um, people are willing to offer a sofa, at [00:27:30] the very least, if not a spare room, and take people in for a short term or long term. Yeah, which is really nice. It's good to better know that we've got people out there that we can rely on When, when? When needed. Yeah. What sort of advice would you give to a young person that is, uh, coming through into the queer communities in Wellington. You Nothing like the big questions. Hey, Jack. Um Oh, I [00:28:00] don't know. Be yourself. Get support around you people who will accept you for who you are and don't want to try and change you. There's people out there who will hug you when you need a hug. They exist. And I suppose don't be afraid to ask for that Help when you need it. Um, it can be daunting coming to terms with who you are and to fess that up to somebody else, especially if you don't [00:28:30] know them. That makes that feeling 10 times worse. But we've all been there. We've all done it people. I find that people in Wellington want help when they can. They want to support people. If they can, you just have to ask for it.
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