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I grew up here in lower heart. I haven't lived here the whole time. I've come back after living in Wellington City for quite a few years. I come from a very different kind of background, probably to lots of people. I was born in 1952 so things were fairly conservative in 1952. Um, and my mom was a solo parent, so I was brought up with my mother and my grandmother, and I think that is probably a really, um an interesting view. I mean, eventually, I think my mother thought that was the reason I was a lesbian. Um, [00:00:30] I've not really I don't really subscribe to that, But perhaps it made me the kind of lesbian that I am II, I don't know. So you feel that your, um, background of your mother being a solo parent in in the 19 fifties? That was pretty unusual. Um, I think it was really unusual. She was a very interesting person in that she wanted to have a child and she had a relationship with somebody who was married and decided to still go ahead and have a child. My mother was a very determined person. And when she decided she wanted to do something, [00:01:00] she did it. And she was a very strong person. She had people like social welfare coming and suggesting that she give, um, me up for adoption or I was a twin, actually, and, um, give us up for adoption, and she just told them where to go. And she was 29 so it wasn't like she was 15 or 16. So in the end, they just left her alone, and she got on with it. Um, my sister actually only lived a few days after we were born, but, um, that was, um, Yeah, I think that might I. I always think that has something to do with [00:01:30] it. You know, What is it like to be, um, you know, in a womb with another little being, and then you come out and that little beings gone. I don't know what that means, but, um, I always think these things probably will take a toll or or help to build bits in us. So your grandmother was supportive of your mother's decision to have, um, Children eventually eventually, Um, my grandmother, um, also in 19 twenties, divorced, which was very unheard of. She was in a very violent relationship. She had [00:02:00] three Children, and then she left that marriage. And then she had my mother, um, to somebody else. Uh uh. Um and my mother actually doesn't know who her father was. And so we have this really quite interesting, I think little family thing going on, and and I think that was I think that that was an implication for how things panned out. Eventually, when my mother found out that I was a lesbian, she was totally devastated, even though she had chosen to live right outside of what way that most people live. [00:02:30] But she really was upset about it. And I have always felt that I I'm perhaps, and this is just me thinking about it that I had the ability to bring her into the mainstream by becoming a mother-in-law by becoming a grandmother, and I didn't do it. Uh, that's just my vision of this, But so I, I sort of I think for me, these these family things are really important in who I am. Did you ever get to know your father? Um, I met my father on a few occasions. [00:03:00] Um, it's really interesting because we look amazingly. He's dead now, but we looked amazingly alike. He had three Children, other Children, and, um, I have, uh I still have a older sister living, and we met officially about 12, 13 years ago, and we have a really nice relationship, and we see each other regularly. Um, and, uh, that's that's really lovely. And your mother is still alive. My mother is still alive. She's just about to turn 92 and she's in a rest home. And, [00:03:30] um, I've found myself being her drug dealer, delivering her cigarettes and her daily bottle of beer and putting bets on the the horses for her things I never thought I'd see myself doing, but I'm doing them for her. I love that. I'd love to be that old woman one day. Um, So you grew up in the heart. Did you go to local schools here? Yes. I went to, um, a number of primary schools. I went to nine intermediate and I went to college. And how was how [00:04:00] was college for you? Um, I don't think I was a fan. I mean, I was a good kid. I was a studious kid, but, you know, I wasn't academically the sharpest knife in the drawer. I would say, um and I always felt different. I mean, my identity. Um, even I didn't have a word for it. I. I was aware from a very young age, perhaps even as young as five, that I was interested in other girls and not boys. So I think that was always a little bit different. And as you get older, people notice more, and I think that set [00:04:30] me apart a little bit. I think, um, um, maybe I was just a nerd. I don't know. I certainly hung out with the nerds, the nice nerds. Did you have girlfriends when you were young? Um, my first, Uh, I mean, I had girls from, you know, that I was in love with from probably at least certainly 10 years old. I mean, you know, great passions all the time. That was very common. Um, but as a an actual relationship, I had my first [00:05:00] relationship when I was still at high school just before I turned 18. Tell us about how that came about, um, a bit complicated, but I had some school friends over to stay. And, um, I stayed up all night telling to pluck up the courage to tell one of them that I liked one of the others and she said, Oh, so do I. And, um And then she this woman then proceeded to I suppose, um, pursue me and actually start a relationship with me. And and And it was it was all from her side at that point. So [00:05:30] that was how it all started. And how did that finish? Um, we were in a relationship for five years. It wasn't an easy relationship. And, um, in the end, I made the decision not to stay in it. And she made the decision eventually to go and get married and have Children and things. Yeah. What what age were you then? Uh, when it finished? Um uh, I suppose about 22. Were you living at home or No, no, no. The the the first sort of year [00:06:00] of the relationship. We lived at home, and then we sort of escaped and and went and worked in hotels and lived out of home for a while. And then we went back. And then my girlfriend's mother found out and she called us over and asked us, Are you having a relationship? And we said Yes. And she said, Well, you need to go to me. You need to go and tell your mother And I said, Look, my mom, um, I will tell my mother I'm going to but she's not ready to hear this yet. And this woman said, You've got five minutes So we lived across the road [00:06:30] from each other, So I went over and told my mother in tears, which is not what you want to do, and it would never been the way I would have approached it. And my mother really went to pieces after that, and eventually this woman, um, apologised to me and she said that she should never have done that. I mean, from the point of view that this woman had eight Children, my mother had one, and it was really devastating, and and it caused a terrible rift in my mother and my relationship that went on for well, I think it's always been, it's it's played a part in damaging it, ongoing, but certainly for the next [00:07:00] 10 years, really bad. So what did you do then? Once you had this, um, reveal to your to your mother. What? You couldn't come home, could you? I I left home. I stayed with a school friend for a little while and, uh, was over the school holiday sort of university holidays and things. And then, um, my partner and I and my girlfriend, we moved out and we got a flat. And that was Yeah, things were rocky for a long time after that, with with my mother. Did [00:07:30] you know other lesbians, then? Um, at that point, I did know someone when we moved out, but it was interesting. Um, that, um this woman and I, you know, we were about, what, 18. At this stage, when we first get together, we go to Carmen's Coffee Lounge because we know about Carmen's, but we don't know where you'd find anybody else. And we were sitting there and these two women came up to us and they were a little bit drunk and they said, Oh, you they come up And they said to us, Are you lesbians? And we said yes. And they said, Oh, so are we and we'll come back this time next week [00:08:00] and we'll take you to a gay bar. And we thought, No, they won't come. They're drunk. They won't never remember. But they did. And one of those women was Tiggy, so I'll always be very grateful. I've already told her that I'm very grateful for her for that. What sort of year was that? Maybe 70. 71? Yeah. So tell us a bit about Carmen's coffee lounge. How that was so. Carmen was was a very well known perhaps notorious drag queen in Wellington, and she had a number of businesses. She had a strip club, [00:08:30] and but she had this coffee lounge, which was in Vivian Street. And I think the Salvation Army Citadel now pretty much sits on that space with this. With this was and it was a coffee lounge. To me, it was just a coffee lounge and run by a wonderful drag queens, and we would go there and be totally fascinated and look at them and and we used to go all the time, and they were very good to us. I was quite and I not not naive but innocent, but I took people pretty much at face value. My [00:09:00] understanding is there were other things going on in that building, and I sort of knew about that. But I just saw them as these amazing beings, really. And, uh, other, um, once I got to know Tiggy, I met other women, and we used to go there quite regularly and you'd walk in there and they'd all Hello, girl, How are you? And you know you Oh, this is great. And and people straight people used to go there a lot and sort of almost be there, sort of, um, being tourists. But we always felt that that was we were safe. And I remember one night, um, I was with a group of women and this guy [00:09:30] grabbed me and he brought his fist back to punch me in the face because he thought I was a gay man. And I said, and I cringe now a little bit, And I as he was about to bring his fist into my face, I said, Oh, do you usually hit woman, do you? And his arm dropped down, his mouth fell open, and then two very large drag queens swooped on him and took him outside and he didn't come back. And I love them for that. Where else did you go As lesbians in town in the seventies, Um, the Royal Oak Hotel. So there [00:10:00] were a number of bars in there, and the one that I used to drink and, um was the bar. So the tavern bar was largely it was a mixture of lesbian and gay, lesbian and gay men and probably largely white collar workers in the sense of teachers, nurses, um, office workers, things like that. And then there were a few other bars in the building that had entirely different populations of people. And that's where the oaks is now. Yes. Yeah. So that was quite an amazing It was a place [00:10:30] you were told. Don't go. Don't go there. Don't go there. Of course you went there. It was very exciting. And Friday and Saturday nights particularly. And what would happen is that, um there would be circulation of saying Oh, there there will be a party somewhere. And after that, we all went off to this party, and that was sort of life for a number of years. And I can remember getting dressed up to go there I think it was mainly actually Friday nights that we went there. So, you know, this was an opportunity to get all dressed up, hop on the bus. I can remember [00:11:00] at this particular time living in, so I have to get on the bus and go down there and I mean, I. I was quite flamboyant and looked quite different. And I think that a lot of, uh, women in particular who drank in that bar, even if they liked me were quite uncomfortable about how I looked. How did you look? I certainly would say I was cross dressed, but in a very, um Well, for example, uh, there was a men's outfitter shop in Wellington called, and I went [00:11:30] there, and I got the most wonderful cringe. Now, I haven't even got a photo of this, uh, a cherry red knit safari suit. Mhm. And I had a wonderful lace shirt with attachable lace ruffles at the cuffs and down the front. And, um, at that stage, I, uh I suppose II I at that point, I got picked up by the police and thrown out for being under age there. I mean, I would have stood out [00:12:00] anyway. Um, and I must have been 20 because the drinking age was 21 then. So, uh, yeah, this terrible suit. I mean, shocking thing, but I thought I looked wonderful. I certainly stood out. Did you get harassed at all Publicly? Um, not a lot. Um, as I say, and Carmen is nearly getting beaten up, but it was because they they thought I was a gay man. And there were a number of occasions walking down the street where gay men approached me because they thought I was a young gay man [00:12:30] just because of how I I looked, you know, I was so prone to wear lace and and it was very interesting. The first queer people really that I knew were drag queens. And I developed a persona, which was I can't describe. It is totally queer. So I when I walked, I minced. And when I talked, I flat my wrist around and so it's no wonder. And what will I wore that people often must stop me for a gay man? And it was just That was the identity I took. And it was seemed quite natural [00:13:00] for me. So you were hanging out with drag queens and lesbians and gay men socially. Um, the mix Pretty much, Yeah. Although things, like often our parties, some of them were mixed, but often they were lesbian. You know, lesbian and gay men had separate parties, but there were definitely mixed parties. Yeah, so that was in the seventies. Were you working or at university in the early seventies? I was at teachers college. I was at Teachers College, so, um, it seemed to work, OK? I mean, you had to be [00:13:30] a little bit discreet, I suppose going at going to work and things. Because in those days, uh, when I was at Teachers College, for example, when you went out on teaching section, women were not allowed to wear trousers unless it was a trouser suit and the guys would get sent home if they didn't have a tie on. So it was quite strict. Really? So, um, yeah, but still managed to get through it, all right? As a child and a young woman, Were you more likely to be wearing trousers and so on than dresses? Um, a mixture. In fact, [00:14:00] in my earlier teenage years of 15 and 16 I. I used to. You know, when I went to the pictures and things, I had sling back shoes and I had my hair teased and I used to have hair spray on my back, But at home I would often be cross dressed, so I don't know. I mean, I think my my natural attire has always been towards what you would say a butcher style, even if it was with lace and things. But that was Yeah, definitely. Um, I. I always had that, um, leaning. [00:14:30] But But at a certain period, I didn't care about wearing dresses and things. I did wear them. I didn't hate them. But once I got to a certain point, um, I suppose when I came out and after that, I don't think I ever wore a dress Seriously. So did you get involved in the feminist movement in the seventies? Um, eventually, Um I found it really quite interesting because I can remember when it all started to happen. And I can remember being accosted by women and saying to me, Why do you wear a shirt and tie [00:15:00] and things like that? And I got really, really angry about that and for a while that was a really a no no. And then eventually, I suppose, when I got involved in more feminist things, many of the feminist women then started to put shirts into famous lesbians, started to put shirts and ties on, and it kind of became I don't know what it became, whether it became cool or whether it became this is a symbol or something, I don't know. But at the very beginning, I certainly I did feel set upon. I can remember writing an article, uh, a story, [00:15:30] actually. A little story for Circle magazine. It was called something I. I can't be a lesbian because I, you know, looking at what was being said a lesbian was I felt I didn't fit most of those things. What were they saying? A lesbian was certainly not wearing a shirt and tie, you know? Certainly not. And, um and I suppose in those early days, some of that stereotype of the sort of more uh um, not everybody, but there was that sort of slightly earth mother look of long dresses and and things like that. And that certainly was not me. [00:16:00] No, but I mean I think, um, fashion for want of a better word did change within the, uh, lesbian feminist community. I think we we all changed. So you went from Teachers College to to what I went teaching. I taught for a couple of years, and then I went overseas for a year. Then I came back and taught for another year and a half, and then I gave, gave it away and, um decided that I wanted to do something else. And in that time, that [00:16:30] must have been the late seventies. And there were lots of interesting things happening. I was living in the Arrow Valley, had a little cottage in the Arrow Valley, and there were lots of other lesbians living in the Arrow Valley late seventies early eighties, and that was a very exciting time. I had a year off where I I didn't work for a year. And that was the most marvellous time of people just dropping in for cups of tea and lots of discussion happening. And, um yeah, and there was always something on dances across ways or this or that. And it was it was incredibly exciting time and some really amazing things that people [00:17:00] did. I think what was some of the things that were making an excitement was that it started some of the I don't know that refuge and those sort of movement movement started around the then there was stuff like, for example, there was the, um, government PP scheme for workers, and I was lucky enough to get two of those. I got one where I worked, um, as a volunteer coordinator for the women's Refuge, which was really nice. I I learned a lot, uh, from that, and and and really enjoyed working with people. [00:17:30] I was sort of trying to coordinate volunteers, and I also did a bit of work on putting together a Children's sort of playroom at the refuge. And then the other one was, um I had a job for the I got a job PE P for the National Gay Rights Coalition, which ended up with me, um, painting a room purple, uh, in a building where they had their offices and and making a beginning at sorting documents and papers which would later become [00:18:00] Gans. I don't know that I was so good at that bit of it to be very honest, but, um, but certainly it became a drop in centre and lots of people came in and talked, and that was exciting. And did you start getting involved in the homosexual law reform? Um, activities I did. I think I'm someone. I hate meetings, and and I'm just not good at them. And, you know, like people I really respect all those people who sit there and they write, um, all sorts of things to send to parliament and go II. I just can't do that. [00:18:30] It's just not me. Um, I my preference would be, and I did. Some of it was to go and talk to groups of people, whether it was a church group or whatever it was to to I've always believed putting a personal face to things. So one of the things that I did, um, was to write a letter and send it to everybody. I could think of that I knew, explaining that, you know, there was a petition going around trying to sign to stop this law being changed, and that when they read that and when they were considering what they were going [00:19:00] to do, they needed to understand that they knew at least one queer person. And that was me. And I sent those out to people. I taught with people. I knew even my Ex-girlfriend's parents. I sent it to lots of people and and that that was the sort of thing I had some fun one day down on Lampton qua where the people had the petition. So I waited quietly in line, and when I got there, I grabbed several sheets of them and then I stuffed them down my trousers and the two people who were, um, doing the petition [00:19:30] a man and a woman. They grabbed me and they just about broke my arms and towed my arm right up behind my back. It was very, very Christian of them. And, um And then, uh, they called the police and the police said that I had to give it back and I warned them that they didn't. If they touched me, I'd have them for assault because I'd stuff them down my trousers and I got it out, and I tore it to pieces before I gave it back to them. So those sorts of things felt felt good to do, but, uh, but the thing around and I've always done that. I was involved earlier, also in gay liberation, and I went out. I can remember [00:20:00] that we went to the police college. We went to other groups to talk to them, and and I've always thought that that was a really valuable thing to do. I I somehow it doesn't always work, but a but a 1 to 1 or a group to group where, you know, you're staring eye to eye at each other and you're telling your story. Um, even if it only affects one person, it's worth it. Totally worth it. So that's more that's always been my more my way of doing things rather than you know, writing things or [00:20:30] I. I gave a few, did a few speeches, um, there during the homosexual law reform one of the big marches. II. I spoke at that. So you know, um but I I for me, it's always I like it to be pretty personal. Yeah, So I know that you started performing at some point in this, Um when when were you when were you getting on stage and entertaining the lesbians? Oh, I know. I got on stage much earlier than that. I was at high school the first time I ever. I used [00:21:00] to do this thing as lots of people do. And lots of the people in the drag kings did. You know you got your radio going or your record player going and you got your hairbrush and you've got the mirror and you're prancing around singing into the hairbrush. Well, I used to do that. And then when I was at high school and I can't remember what year it was, what? Whether I was it wasn't my third form me and possibly fourth, possibly fifth. And we had a talent contest and I decided I was going to do this. My mother really was concerned about it, and I think she was concerned that I might get a really hard time. But I did [00:21:30] it and people loved it. What did you do? Um, I think I'm trying to think the first one I did a couple. The first one was, um, Georgie Fame, Bonnie and Clyde. So I was dressed up like a gangster and I had a plastic machine gun and things like that. And the other one I did um was a Burlington Bertie from Bow. So my mother bought me a tail suit and top hat, and I did that. Um I'm trying to think I can't remember who sing it now. But anyway, it was a woman. It wasn't a man singing it. And actually, So [00:22:00] you were lip syncing along to it. Lip syncing. Yeah, absolutely. And people loved it. I was quite surprised, but yeah, what were some of your other personas? Um, I can remember doing a Beatles one, but it was just me doing it I I did. I did one of those That was a bit more unusual. So, uh, and I I later went on to do Gene Pitney, but I don't think I ever did that at school, but I But I wanted to do things that were a bit more expressive and [00:22:30] a bit more queer even before I had the words for it. But I somehow knew to be very careful. So I think Bonnie and Clyde was kind of a weird little song, you know, it was exciting and people being shot and, you know, and Billington Bertie was Julie Andrews' voice. It wasn't a male voice So I think people sort of did look a little bit sideways, but I kind of got away with it. But they weren't the songs that I really wanted to do, not really. So when you were, um, with the drag queens and obviously they would be doing some performances, [00:23:00] did that? Did that sort of inspire you to do more I? I thought about it. I mean, when my first girlfriend and I left home, we went and lived in Auckland and we used to go to this drag queen show called Mojo, which was on Queen Street. And I have to say they were some of the most amazingly talented and beautiful people, uh, on that show. And I used to think about that, and I used to think I could do that. I'd like to do that. And when I was in Wellington, I knew that stuff happened at Carmen's Balcony Club. But my [00:23:30] problem was I knew that there was a lot of stuff that came along with that sort of performance. You know, II. I just understood that the world that it was happening in was probably not the world I wanted to live in. I think that was part of what you know, uh, would would have stopped me perhaps pursuing finding out I wasn't the sort of person that wanted to be in a nightclub, you know, till two or three in the morning, Doing that sort of stuff. III I It just Yeah, I just didn't have the, um, not personality, but it just wasn't who I was. So I don't [00:24:00] think it was ever a possibility, for example, for it to become a a career or anything like that, Uh, as, say, with the drag queens did. Yeah. I think that life would have been too hard for me. So, um, I think a lot of people listening may have heard or seen you being Gene Pitney. Where were some of the places that you would have been doing that performance? Um, and that was quite interesting, too. And and And lesbian and the lesbian clubs. And, um and it was sometimes controversial. [00:24:30] And I'm just trying to remember the one performance that I did. Um, I can't even remember where the club was Now. It wasn't the Wiggin Street Club. It was somewhere down Courtney place. And, um, I think It was a club that was there for a while, but not not long, long. And, um, some people sort of said they just didn't understand it. Other people loved it, you know, And and And I mean, it is a really weird thing for lesbians to do, isn't it? I mean, you know, we dress up as as, as as male characters, and we [00:25:00] lip sync to male voices. Or sometimes we do female, but often to male voices. And and And some women just love it. And I sometimes get very confused by that. I'm not sure what that means, but I've decided not to worry about that. But but But it is. But some people watching it got very confused by it. They didn't understand what this was about. Why would we be doing this? Did they? Over time, people sort of got used to it, and they they would see you at various things doing this and sort of maybe understand a little bit better. [00:25:30] Yeah, I think I think so. Um, it was very interesting when I was was actually with the drag kings and we went on our show to Melbourne. I contacted somebody that used to live here that lived in Melbourne and told her that we were coming and that we were doing this show and I got back this very rude email from this person. I wouldn't be coming to see something like that. OK, OK, it's just fun because the drag kings um, I think we've been going a couple of years and we kept hearing from people [00:26:00] who were your your fan, your fan club say you, you've you know you've got to get Glenda involved. I mean, she does, Jean. She's been doing it since, you know, long before you ever got on stage and and I think you joined the Drag Kings for about a year. I did, and that was a wonderful really time for me. We were having a bit of a laugh earlier about ageing process, and I was what early fifties then I felt really old compared with everybody else and actually was quite hard keeping up. I have to say, but it was such a neat [00:26:30] opportunity. I mean, I'd always been a solo performer, perform by myself and in some ways that's easier. And so it was a pretty hard learning curve to learn how to do all the steps with everybody else. That was really hard. Um, but it was a wonderful opportunity. And I just felt that, um um you don't get those kind of opportunities very often. So I decided I needed to say yes. Finally. And it was was the best thing to do. We were wrapped anyway, and I think I was, um, remembering that at the time you [00:27:00] we we all knew that you were around 50. And we just thought it was incredible that this 50 year old would be getting on stage with us. And now I've turned 50. Of course. I don't think I'm half as nimble as you were on stage. Do you do any performing now at all? No, not really. III. I would never say never again, But probably not. I don't I don't know. Um you know, I haven't given away all my costumes and stuff, but but But probably I sometimes think [00:27:30] you have to know when to stop as well, You know, it could be a no, but it could be embarrassing, You know. You know all these comebacks that people do, It could be a worry. We take that on board. Thanks, Glenda. Glenda, you were involved in the Butch and Butch photo exhibition. And, um, uh, we took your photo of across the road, um, in the church park opposite the national Library. And you're wearing a gorgeous [00:28:00] suit at the time. Can you? I think that's a special suit for you. Can you talk about that? Um, it's, uh, the The jacket and the waistcoat are from an Indian wedding suit and I. I bought that from a little shop in Newtown. I couldn't buy the trousers because there's no way I could fit into them. Um, but, um, I wanted So I had an occasion to go to, and I wanted something that I could relate to, but something I didn't want to wear an ordinary men's three piece suit or something. That was not how I anymore. [00:28:30] And it's not what I want to wear. There was a stage in my life where that's all I wanted, but that's not what I want. Now. I like something a little bit different, and I looked and looked and couldn't find anything. And then I found this and I thought, Yeah, that's what I want. And, um, so I really I don't have a lot of opportunities to wear it, but I wanted to wear it because I think it reflects, uh, in a formal sense of me getting dressed up. I think that's pretty much where I am at the moment. Uh, I, I like that. Well, it's not so far away. Um, from from the Red [00:29:00] Safari suit and the lacy shirt. I mean, it's totally different. It's a lot better. Um, but it But it's that's that's a part of me. And I think that I talked about it and what I wrote to say, um, you know that I've I've had a sort of on again, off again sort of relationship with this term, and what does it mean? Um, but, you know, I've always really had my hair cut really short. Um, I love ties. I love cuff links I have done for years, and I and I think this is important. I only felt comfortable wearing earrings [00:29:30] and bracelets when men and gay men in particular, started to wear them, probably in the nineties or something like that. So, something going on there something to do with character and and there's this and there's always been this little queer part of my character. You know? Um, you know, I said, I used to walk around and I lied and I had a little flapping wrist. I don't have that anymore. But there is a little bit of that residue that's left. And I'm told, if I get very excited or, um, II, I get really involved in something that I do start [00:30:00] to have a little lisp and sometimes my wrist flaps and people laugh at me. So I feel like there's a little There's a little there's something there. II I I've always thought of myself, really as an effeminate lesbian because, you know, the term Butch, it conjures up whole lots of things and even some of the other women who have taught I've heard the interviews and things, you know, they talk about their sporting careers and fabulous things like that. I hated sports, you know, I couldn't a lot of the things that you might think stereotypically are about being butch. [00:30:30] Well, I'm sorry a person will be very disappointed with me. Absolutely. I mean, I'm the one, you know, if we have visitors. I'm the one that's rushing around wanting to tidy the house. I'm the one today that went in the garden and got flowers and put in because I was having a visitor, you know, and I'll be the one that tidies the cushions and things. So that's yeah, it's It's an interesting little thing. I have no interest in sport whatsoever. Can't fix anything. Um, you know, so, II, I still [00:31:00] don't really understand what Butch means. Why did you want to be in the exhibition? Well, when I heard that you were wanting people to ident who identified as botch in some way, When I thought about it, I thought, Well, I do in my way.
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