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I grew up mostly on the coast. Um, I have a middle class background. Both my parents are teachers. Um, I have two younger brothers, so I hang out with them a bit while I was growing up as well. So as a kid, how would how would you describe yourself when you were a child? What were you like? Um, I think I was maybe a bit of a loner, but yeah, like, um, had my own adventures. They usually involving [00:00:30] tree houses and, um, Wars with my brothers. We were quite close growing up, and yeah, just a pretty I guess we're kind of lied to a thing a lot of the time. I guess not that my parents weren't around or anything, but we just kind of left in our own world and, um, at school. What were things like for you at school? Yeah. Again. I was probably a bit of a loner, but [00:01:00] I think I didn't feel like isolated, but, I don't know, maybe my mom worried or something. Um, it was more that I was in my own world doing my own imaginary things, like have projects for myself Where I'd like climb certain trees or gather Berries or something like that around the school? I don't know what, um, Did you see yourself as being different at all for the from other people in your school? Not really. Um, I thought I was pretty run of [00:01:30] the mill at the time. Like, um, I was involved in other people's games or in games and stuff, and, I don't know, looking back, do you see yourself as being different at all rather than, uh, yeah, I guess so. Like, um, I wasn't really into the mothers and fathers games or something. I just was. I just thought it was a bit silly. Um, and I'd go along with it, but it was like, [00:02:00] Yeah, I was kind of like surely there's, like, more to life than this. And, yeah, I guess, Yeah, like I I guess my mom's quite a like a repeated person as well. And she was like, You don't need to restrict yourself to certain gender roles or whatever girls can do the thing. That kind of motto is her basic principle, I guess. Do you, um, see anyone as being particularly influential [00:02:30] on you when you were younger? Um, I guess my mom and dad Yeah, uh, sort of shaped my interests and, uh, my approach to the world. I guess, um, you were involved in the, uh, but on Butch photo exhibition. Can you just tell us a little bit? Why you got involved in that? Um, I got involved [00:03:00] because I kind of wanted to be part of a conversation about what Butch meant and what female masculinity could look like and how I felt about but in is a separate thing or is a thing which is related to female masculinity. But it's not necessarily the same thing. Exactly. Maybe. Can you, um, tell us how you identify if you do, [00:03:30] Um, I identify as a butch woman. Um, yeah. So for me, um, which is an identity which is compatible with my masculinity as a female person. But I think it's something that I've grown into or learned more about, and it's kind of continually developing as an identity for me and what that means and stuff. I remember, [00:04:00] um, from the narrative that you wrote for the, um, for the project to go with your portrait that you said that when you, um you remembered. First, you're first identifying as a butch. I think, um, it was I was actually quite old by the time I actually decided that because yeah, like I is a younger person. Like I was seen as, like, more aggressive than a [00:04:30] young woman should and interested in things that a young woman shouldn't and that kind of stuff. And I think it was, like, always, just like, Well, maybe at some point, I'll just, like, switch into like like, um, ideal young woman mode or whatever, but I think I was just, like, no stuff that I'm gonna just embrace this part of myself, and that's part of who I am. And I was like, Let's just move forward being comfortable with that part of my gender. Do you? Do [00:05:00] you have any ways of describing how you think that that is in the world? Um, so that might mean like I would chase my brothers around with a stick or something. And, um yeah, just kind of, like little micro comments like, Oh, you're so aggressive Or you so like you talk like a boy. You think like a boy. You must be a boy. Why are you such a boy? And I just remember [00:05:30] at some point I think I decided that I wasn't going to take that as a dis Um, even though. Yeah. Like it. It's kind of complicated because it is a in that circumstance. So I think coming to terms with that and just being like, Well, I'm going to accept that. So deal with it. And how is it, um, for you in the world now, uh, pretty good, I think. Yeah. Like continually developing my own identity [00:06:00] and how that relates to other people as well as how I feel about it. Um, I have good friends. Who, You know, we kind of talk about it sometimes in our own special way. Um, yeah. What is that? What is that special way? What does that look like? I don't know. Um, like, we might go for a swim or something or hang out. [00:06:30] I just talk about stuff and what's what's up with what's on top kind of thing. Stuff bothers us on like a gender level as well, like going to a restaurant and people being like, Hey, ladies or something like that, and I know that there's lots of, um, more normative gendered women that are bothered by being ladies. But it just Yeah, it seems so unlikely. He was just kind of like what? [00:07:00] Are there any, um, uh, you know, that's sort of an example of of getting seen as something that you don't really identify with. Does it affect you in other ways, like in work or looking for jobs or those sort of areas? It's sort of hard to tell because you can't read people's minds, I guess. I mean, the work that I do now is pretty like stereotypically, [00:07:30] but I guess and it's in a male dominated field. Um, so, yeah, I don't know. Um, sometimes it's hard to know how people are reading you, whether they are seeing you as a masculine woman or they think you're a dude or they're thinking something else or you get ladies. Yeah, and so you don't always know how people are gonna act and you just have to play or whatever they're saying. Like, I don't say no. I'm a lady. [00:08:00] When people are thinking that I'm a dude, I just kind of roll with it, see if they figure it out. Hopefully, they don't get mad when they figure it out. Have you ever had any bad experiences? Um, I've had some, uh, sort of strange bathroom things where people are like, this is the ladies stuff like that? Um, but nothing really physical or anything, but it's just generally a bad vibe from people. Um, someone yelled at me in the supermarket, [00:08:30] Um, when he mistook me for a dude, and I turned out not to be, And then he was like, you tricked me kind of thing. And I was like, I haven't done anything. The me and my friend were just like, this is weird and funny, but yeah, does any it Does any of it come across as a homophobic thing for you? Any questioning of you? Like that? Uh, yeah, but I don't know, I. I feel like I haven't had that much [00:09:00] homophobia that I've actually dealt with. Like I guess street harassment. Like I wouldn't say more than other queer people that I know. Yeah, maybe it's because I'm sort of tall and tough looking or something. No, that must be it. Um, And you say that you you meet up with other butchers occasionally. Um have you have you act actively sort [00:09:30] out our friendships or butchers? Or is that just something that's come into your life That's just come into my life? And I really value those connections, I guess. Yeah, because there's not that many if any. Um and yeah, like, I guess other butchers might have different ways that they feel about their identity and different approaches to that. And, yeah, kind of. I've learned to have a sensitivity to that as well. Um, yeah, but I think anyone [00:10:00] but or otherwise who kind of gets it is kind of cool as well. Like, there's been lots of really awesome films that have kind of talked to me about stuff and told me things or whatever. Do you think there are stereotypes? Yes, I'd I'd say that. I think because Butch is quite a visible thing. It tends to be a stereotype [00:10:30] in itself. And I think that you can embody a stereotype, but in a way, which you're still kind of being yourself as well. Having been in the in the photo exhibition, did you find that, uh, anyone sort of reacted to you being in it? Or did they give you feedback about being in it? Um, most people, I think, were pretty excited [00:11:00] about the project. Um, and they liked what I wrote about it. And I thought that was nice. Um, yeah, I think going on from it, I'd still like to keep those conversations going with other people in the community and other butchers, like, among other butchers, about what that means. And because yeah, like I like, there were a couple of us who were like, Yeah, but yeah, but there were other people who seemed like a little more [00:11:30] reticent or something. They didn't want to own it quite as much. And then, like, um, dust me kind of thing. I was like, Yeah, I think it would be cool if there were people who were like, You're OK kind of thing. You're actually awesome. You're a special unicorn. Keep going with it. I've got, um, a copy of what? You, um of what you wrote George and wouldn't [00:12:00] mind it if, um, if you do us a favour and and read some of it out. It was really important that, um, people were able to write about themselves as well as have the photo up, too, are you? You OK about reading from it? Um, I remember the exact moment that I actively accepted my masculinity as a part of me and how powerful and freeing that thought was. Well, I've always been pretty tomboyish. I learned that maybe that it was something I needed to hide or learn to adapt. I want to say more [00:12:30] about what being butch feels like than rather than what it looks like. And remember that it's more than having a neat hairstyle or having mechanical aptitude or whatever. For me, it's generosity grounded this responsibility, kindness, care, solidarity, vulnerability and strength. A kind of energy. It's not about rejecting femininity, but rather the proudly embracing of the masculine characteristics I have in incorporating those aspects into my self-expression. I think it's important for me to [00:13:00] for Butch as a whole to be seen as a positive thought force as a desired thing as something valued and special. Sometimes it's quite isolating, being queer and even more being butch. You're cut off from other people, defined by their assumptions and prejudices, as being a bit of a freak or defined as something negative like that stereotype thing. Um, Because of this, we are really into building up groups of friends, having good relationships with people that get you in [00:13:30] creating queer communities that are safe and welcoming. Cool. Thanks. Do you see it? Um, the butcher identity is influencing how, um, how you will be as you get older in any way how you are in relationships or sort of what you what you dream of doing. I think I would like to grow into a well adjusted, but I don't know, I I think it's [00:14:00] it's a thing that you can maybe not full, fully fulfil, like in terms of I think of the values that I just read out. And I'm like, Well, that's kind of aspirational because I can't be all those things all the time, but I think it would be good if I was so it's nice to be to be able to identify the things that you actually want to draw on as being part of you going easy and remembering. I'm still like a human, and [00:14:30] I think, yeah, like it's a It's a good positive thing and hopefully I'll grow into a good one of those. Do you have role models. Jack Lynch, get away with you. I don't know. Yeah, like, um, some of the role models that I've had have been just, uh, other masculine people, whether they're men or whether they're trans guys or whether they're butchers. Um, just in terms of how they relate to people, how they treat other people, [00:15:00] what stuff they're into, I don't know. Lots of just cool people. Yeah. Are there things that concern you about? Um, how the queer communities are? No, not really. I think the queer communities, like it's such a big and diverse group of people that we're not going to get along all the time. And we're not going to be accepting of all of ourselves at once, even though it would be nice. [00:15:30] Um, and yeah, like, I I'd like to be a part of just working out that stuff sometimes. Yeah, instead of throwing up my hands and saying why can't we all just get along? I'm just like, Well, I'm gonna hang out with the people that are good to me, and yeah, and hopefully be good to them back. And if you were, um, not necessary advice. But if you were giving some guidance or something along those [00:16:00] lines to young people coming through who mhm might identify as Butch. What? What sort of things would you say? Um, I'd say Go easy on yourself and you're all right. You're OK. Um, you're your own special person. And if you feel like Butch is a thing for you, then that's cool. And let's talk about that. Let's talk about what that means, because I don't I don't know whether I have all the answers of what it means [00:16:30] either. So let's work it out. Do you? Do you see any particular pressures for young people in the, um the as who have a butch identity or coming through into the queer communities or just being themselves in the world? Um, yeah. I think there are pressures on people from both within the queer community to identify one way or another. And in the straight world, who prefer, if you're straight [00:17:00] and, um suspended. Um, yeah, I think I think young people today do have a wider vocabulary of how they want to identify. And I think, but needs to be a part of that as well. Um, yeah, there's not a prescription for how to be, I think with, like, things like Tumblr and stuff. I think there's a proliferation of different people's identities and that being a lot more visible and open and accessible to [00:17:30] a lot more people. So you don't have to, like, go to a certain bar to, like, meet the other butchers or whatever. They're kind of already available. There they are. Where are they? Non tumblr and online and online? Yeah, the Internet. It will help you. Yeah. Maybe that's advice as well. Find the Internet. Would there be any cautions around that? Um, yeah. [00:18:00] Learn how to delete your inbox history or your browser history. Um, so if you were in a place where your parents would be mad if they found out what you were looking at, Do you belong to any particular groups around the place? Um, groups? No, I'd not. Particularly I do do the queer trans fight club thing, um, which we're hoping to reboot at some point. Tell us about that. Um, [00:18:30] so it's a group for queer and trans people to get together and learn martial arts skills and self defence techniques. Um, it's kind of like meeting up with people and having a fun wrestle and then going home. Yeah, but yeah, like, um, basically, you get to choose what level of activity you're into. If you don't want to get hit in the head, then no one hits you in the head. And if you don't want to [00:19:00] wrestle, then you don't have to or do something else, but yeah, we've had lots of different people come and share this sort of specific martial arts technique with us. Like we've had Brazilian jujitsu and boxing, which I think some of us have had a go at outside of the group. And we've also had kendo, um, kung fu, pro wrestling, karate, taekwondo and other stuff. Um, [00:19:30] other really experienced in skills. Self-defense People come and show us how how they do their thing. And we're all like, Oh, OK. And it's kind of like you learn something every time. They must be feel pretty special with that particular group that you're working with. If it's queer and trans and having other people come in and teach you things, Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, like we don't claim any expertise or anything, so we're just kind of open for people to come and learn and teach and stuff. [00:20:00] Um, yeah, I think we've had lots of really cool people get involved as well. Like, I think having Trans in the name has helped Trans people get involved as well, Like more so than other queer groups I've been involved in. Having that in the actual title, I think, has made it more accessible at least.
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