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I grew up in lower Hutt. I'm, uh, born in Wellington, but, uh, a hut girl through and through in my upbringing. Um, I have two older brothers and, um, normal ish nuclear family of, um, growing up with, uh, with my parents staying together and my two brothers there, Where did you go to school? In the hut. Started off at, uh, Eastern Hut primary school. Um, I was a little [00:00:30] tomboy there. Um, went on to intermediate and huval high. So when you were a little tomboy, uh, did you go into a big tomboy at at high school? Oh, yeah, definitely a big tomboy at high school. But although there's slightly less, uh, availability for expression of that when you have to wear a uniform. But, uh, yeah, I was always one of the first girls in the in the pants, uh, at school, uh, when you could, um, [00:01:00] because you're only supposed to wear them in winter, you know, to keep warm. Otherwise, you're supposed to wear the stupid skirt. Did you get any pressure to be more girlish, more feminine? Uh, not not from the outside world or from school or from anything like that, I think that, um, my parents would have liked me to have been more girly. Um, they've got two sons. Um, [00:01:30] they wanted a daughter. Uh, and I think deep down, um, you know, things like them sending me to ballet classes that they wanted a different kind of daughter than they got. And I I wasn't quite what they wanted. Um, but, uh, you know, bearing that in mind, they sort of, uh you know, Mom would say you would Do you like the skirt when you know, when we went shopping rather than me heading straight for the trousers, But it it wasn't. Oh, God. Me heading straight for the trousers. That sounds [00:02:00] bad for the trouser rack. Um, yeah. So But it was just It was very, uh, if if anything, it was a subtle pressure. It wasn't really anything. Um, anything heavy or restrictive on me, but, uh, yeah, it would have been nicer for them if I'd been a nicer, girly type girl. And so, what sort of friends did you have at school? Were they like you or just a range A range? Pretty much. I think that by the time [00:02:30] I got to high school. I was hanging out a lot with the with the drama kids. Um, and you know, there's a wide range there. So, you know, there wasn't anything, um, any particular kind of people that I hung out with, Uh, I didn't know at high school that, um, I was a lesbian or even really think anything about being butch or anything like that. So I didn't sort of seek out the company of other people like myself. Um, [00:03:00] I didn't Yeah, I just, uh I liked the kind of clothes I liked, and, um, that seemed OK, so, yeah, I didn't didn't feel ostracised or anything like that because of it. So after high school, where did you head? I went to Victoria University and again, um, gravitated towards the drama people. Um, very early on joined the, um, drama Club there. [00:03:30] And, uh, my first thing there was the, um, annual capping review. Uh, so yeah, I think that was when I discovered how much I like making people laugh. So what What were the sorts of acts that you're involved in in the capping review. Oh, gosh, that was a really long time ago. That capping review because I did A I did. Must have done about five or six of them when I was at uni. Um, and, uh, that 10, interestingly [00:04:00] enough, I got cast as a, um, you know, sort of tuxedo wearing bouncer in the, um, one of my first sketches. Um, me and this other woman kind of butching it up and being the the bouncers on the door and telling people that they couldn't get in. For whatever reason, were you doing stand up at that stage? No, I was just really joining in with, um uh, you know, sketches. I was writing sketches and joining in with other people doing them. Um, so you know, something like a capping review would be a series of, [00:04:30] you know, 3 to 4 minute sketches, um, with different people in them and the big, big, big, big casts for those kind of shows. And, um, it was just, uh it was really fun. And you got to meet lots of people and kind of just sort of immerse myself in university culture. Uh, for the first time, it was, uh yeah, baptism by fire. Maybe. Was this the late eighties or nineties? Yeah, late eighties. So my first one was 1988 [00:05:00] and, um, they'd had a long time without having capping reviews. And then in 88 they they kick started them again. Um and so, yeah, it was a little bit of a wait and see what happens, uh, with those, but yeah, they, um they were again. They were really popular during the, um, late eighties, early nineties. What were you studying studying at, um, university. I, uh, did a B A in theatre and film and a law degree. [00:05:30] Um, I really wanted to do the the drama stuff. That was where my, um uh, passions were. And my mom really wanted me to do the law, because, um, really, it's so hard to make a living, um, being a performer, uh, and I wanted to do that anyway, and it's it's it's kind of ironic that she was right. And now I can make a living being a lawyer when I could never really make a living being a performer. [00:06:00] Um, and, uh, I'm really glad I followed her advice and, um, and did both. Yeah. So how long were you at university in the end. Oh, so long at university. I think I was there for eight years, because I, um, doing the two degrees is, um, is basically six years worth, And then for two years, I, um, worked full time on the student newspaper. [00:06:30] Salient. Um, one year I was the, um, the journalist writing most of the news stories and articles, uh, that weren't contributed by other people. And then, uh, the next year I was the editor. So, um yeah, and that was an amazing experience for, you know, for being that young. I was in charge of a basically small business having to run the whole thing. Um, when I was the editor. So, uh, with that doing [00:07:00] that sort of thing and then with being so involved with the, um University drama Club and doing theatre and film, those were the really kind of, like, great learning experiences. Uh, for me, Um though that's where I got lots of experience that I could then go and get a job from, rather than actually the study that I did. It was the extracurricular things that I did that, um well, I think made me someone who [00:07:30] could be employable, and you come from a family of lawyers or at least one lawyer. Is that right? Yes. Law is very heavy in the family. Actually, um, my dad's a lawyer. Um, my mom was a legal executive. Uh, my brother's a lawyer. I've got a lawyer and a judge. Um, cousins, Um and, uh, you know, in between all of that. They've like married lawyers and [00:08:00] things like that as well. It's, uh, a very, uh, very law heavy family and, uh, you know, sort of going back. My, um My grandfather, uh, was a judge as well. And, um, my, uh, great uncle a few times removed or something was, um uh, Lord cook of Thornton, the New Zealand Law Lord. So it was Yeah, it's kind of, [00:08:30] um uh in not not pushed in that direction. But, um, you know, there was such a strong emphasis on it in our household. Um, and also, when you study law, you suddenly have to learn to think in a different way. You've got to think about what's the issue and the legal problems and things like that. And I'd grown up my entire life doing that. It was like to borrow the car. I had to make an application and triplicate [00:09:00] and put, you know, the reasons and the grounds I had for wanting to borrow the car. So yeah, it was, you know, just sort of grew up in that. So it was a natural progression to, um, study it and then do it. And you're a lawyer now, working in the legal aid system. Uh, do a lot of legal aid work. I'm a criminal defence lawyer and family court lawyer. Um, I really like the court side of things. [00:09:30] Um, because it is there is an element of performance in there. And, um, I suppose there's an element of the drama in it And how you structure your case and your arguments. Um, and you know, the audience is, uh is your judge or your jury, And, uh, so there's there's dramatic possibilities in there as well, Which I I like Um, so, yeah, do a lot of, uh, legal aid work, Um, largely with, um, [00:10:00] with the criminal work. Um, be because that's where most of the, um, uh, criminal work comes from through legal aid in the photo we took for but on. But you were wearing your gown, and, uh, we were in a courtroom. And, um, in the narrative that you wrote for that to go alongside the portrait you talked about, um, how it was, uh, first getting into law and what you were expected [00:10:30] to dress as. Can you go through that for us? Well, um, it obviously, um, the kind of clothes you're supposed to wear for, for courts in particular, Um, are very formal. Um, for men, there's, you know, really quite a strict dress code. Even now that you have to wear a suit and a tie. Uh, and for women, you have to wear a jacket that covers your arms and shoulders. You're not supposed to have bare arms. Um, well, and [00:11:00] although even now, I sort of see some lawyers, especially in somewhere, and they're wearing, um, is, you know, you can see their shoulders. I think. Oh, my God. What's the judge gonna say? Um, and it kind of depends on the circumstances. I. I saw, um, recently one male lawyer colleague of mine. Um, he'd come in in winter with a jersey underneath his jacket. Um, so he was wearing his tie [00:11:30] shirt all buttoned up tie right up to the top, but AAA kind of V neck jersey under his jacket. And the and the lawyer and the judge reprimanded him about it in court and said, You know, that's that's not suitable at Tyre. Um, but when I was studying law, um, women were supposed to wear skirts. Long skirts. Um, and by the time I got to studying law, I had long since left skirts [00:12:00] behind. Unless I was wearing them as part of a costume. Um, and so I felt really uncomfortable about the idea of following through with the kind of work that I wanted to do, which is showing up in court. Um, if I had to do that to kind of I, I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing a skirt. Um, I would I would feel like I was in drag. Um, but by the time I actually started practising, [00:12:30] um, and probably a little bit before then because that would have been in the, um, nineties that that was that kind of code. So, um, 15 years later, it was a lot more relaxed. And there were, um, other women wearing wearing trousers there as well um, so, yeah, I felt more comfortable about that, but the the idea of, um, it being so strict that you would actually get told off for what you were wearing, um, in front of other people. Um, [00:13:00] that, uh, did put me off a little bit about, um uh, how I would go into this profession. Either I would have to dress in a way that, um, made me feel really uncomfortable. Um, or it kind of pushed those boundaries. Um, in a way, which also made me feel uncomfortable, because if you're a lawyer starting out, you don't want to be the one pushing the boundaries. Um, so, [00:13:30] uh, I don't know who when. Why, how? But those, um, norms changed. And by the time I started practising in the in the noughties, uh, it was Yeah, it was fine. You still got to look, um, smart, like, wearing a matching suit or, you know, matching outfit. And, um but really, um, apart from the tie, I'm wearing the male, um, dress code, [00:14:00] not the female dress code. I don't know what would happen if I actually wore a tie. Whether I would actually kind of then get more raised eyebrows. Um, it's not really me to wear a tie either, because that's kind of that's too male. Um, but yeah, Wearing a skirt is not male enough. So you've never been reprimanded? No, I haven't, [00:14:30] um, being a sole practitioner, Um, and, uh, doing most of my work, um, on on my own with other people kind of mentoring me from outside. Um, I, uh, have had to try and make sure I don't make mistakes like that because I don't have another organisation behind me to back me up when it comes to things like that. Um, so, you know, if if I ended up in front of the law society [00:15:00] for wearing the wrong clothes Uh, not that I think that that would be what would happen. I would hope, um, unless you want something really inappropriate. But there's just so many layers of formality involved in in the legal profession, And, um, part of it is to set the legal profession above, um, uh, above the people that they represent [00:15:30] and to have that level of formality to say, Um, this is a lawyer, not a, um, not a criminal defendant. Or, um uh and and those those layers of formality are also there to make, um, somebody's court experience something that they don't want to repeat again. They it's there to make people feel uncomfortable and, um, and and to make them think I don't want to have to ever [00:16:00] go through this again. I'm not gonna break the law as, um someone who's queer. How has that been for you in the legal profession, You know, I know there are a lot of, uh, other queer lawyers out there. Um, statistically speaking, they have to be. I know some of them who I've met in my personal life, but there isn't any kind of, um, a queer support group for, um, for the legal profession. [00:16:30] Um, which surprises me a little bit. Um, it has made me think on occasion that, um it would be a good thing to go and set up. And, um, certainly, um, now that you know, and and I and I think over the past, even over the past decade that, um, queer issues have come more to the fore. And, um, uh, diversity is more accepted and even something as state as the as the legal [00:17:00] profession. Um, but, you know, there are, um, support groups for women, Um, support groups, uh, for, um, people with disabilities, um, support groups for, um, Maori and Pacifica. Uh, lawyers. There are, um, all sorts of things, but there's, uh yeah, nothing. Nothing queer. You just you just kind of sometimes, you know that there are other people. So even when you're starting [00:17:30] out socialising with queer lawyers, lesbian lawyers, that wasn't really what was around for you? Not really. Um I. I don't tend to socialise much with lawyers. Anyway, um, and I don't know whether it's, um, something inherent in me that, um I just tend not to quite fit in wherever I go. And [00:18:00] it was a, you know, a university, um, studying law and drama. I didn't really entirely fit in with the drama people because I had this law side of me, which was just the, um serious. And, you know, there's even the study of law was so much more strictly adhered to than than, um than the drama side of things. And then I didn't really fit in with the law students because I also did this drama stuff, and, um, and [00:18:30] Of course, I wasn't taking everything quite as seriously as I should have. And I didn't spend as much time in the library as I should have. And so, I I never really felt, um, at home in either of those camps. Um, I guess, uh, you know, if there were if there was something, um, more easily accessible of finding other lesbian or other queer lawyers, I really should go and talk to the law society about setting up some kind of a thing, shouldn't I? [00:19:00] Then, um, you know, that would actually be something that, um might attract me towards socialising with with other lawyers on a on a more frequent basis. I'm just not really all that sociable now that I'm, you know, in my forties, it's sort of sociable. Means I can't be sitting on the couch relaxing. So you are also involved in comedy in a big way. Um, [00:19:30] can you tell us sort of things that you've been up to? I know there's stand up. I know there's drag kings, but I know there's other things as well. Uh, that all really started when I was at uni, And, um, that was when, um you know, theatre sports were new, was new, and, um, and an exciting thing to be involved in. And I kind of joined up with some people from university who were doing that. And then it, um, sort of grew [00:20:00] into a professional gig. Um, that we would put on a theatre sports show every week, and so that kind of got me into the wider, um, comedy, um, performance professional side of things. Um, and so that was kind of, um yeah, my first sort of paying jobs, doing that sort of thing. And then, um, the people who were organising that one of [00:20:30] them said, Oh, we're putting on the stand up comedy night. Um, and we'll pay people $80 for three minutes worth of material. Well, $80 for three minutes. I'm in. Of course it's not. Actually, you don't actually spend three minutes doing it. That's actually only how long you are on stage. Um, and, uh, the actual preparation for it is far more nerve wracking than the actual three minutes that you spend on stage doing it. But that's sort of how I, um how I got into it. It was, um [00:21:00] It was so, um, exciting to make people laugh. It just, um it it gives you a buzz that, um I don't think any drug that I've ever tried, not that I've tried that many drugs, that any drug that I've ever tried gives you that kind of a a thrill. And it's the comedy. Is that much, uh, more dangerous than other forms of drama? Because if they don't laugh, you really know about [00:21:30] it, and you fall flat and you feel shit. Um, so that extra danger adds to the excitement, um, of doing it. It's kind of like the the bungee jumping of, um of the performing world. Um, in in in terms of you know how much, uh, personal risk you you're doing of people not thinking you're funny, not thinking you're whatever. And and and so that kind of, um, [00:22:00] yeah, that's part of the buzz of it. Um, and it's been quite interesting being a woman comedian, um, and a lesbian comedian. Um, because, you know, uh, I'm not supposed to be funny with those kind of credentials. Um, and and a lot of people, um, think that already to try and have to break down that kind of a a stereotype. Um, [00:22:30] and I do think it is harder to be a woman comedian or either stand up or any other kind of comedian than it is to be AAA man. And, um, from my experience, I think that, um at least part of that is because, um if you have a bunch of women in the audience and they're listening to a male comedian talk about his Penis, um, [00:23:00] women are able to think I that must I. I can put myself in his shoes and kind of imagine what it would be like to have a Penis. But generally speaking, men are not as good at being able to relate to other people's lives. So, uh, the number of times that I've had men feedback from men saying I just didn't get it, um, because I, I didn't know what you were talking about. Um, and that's kind of sad. Really. [00:23:30] Um, that just for the lack of the ability to be able to think what would What would that be like for me if that was me? Um, they're missing out on a huge amount of hilarity. And, um uh, and enjoyment and a wealth of knowledge and things that they've never thought about as well. Um, I've even had on occasions. Um, you know, times when, um, especially when I was really busy as a Stand-Up [00:24:00] comedian. And I was one of the at the time, one of the most prominent Wellington comedians. Um, And so when we did, uh, when we did shows, um, you know, I might be the last person going on because I was the, you know, most experienced. Start off with the rookie people first, and then sort of build it up to your your biggest name at the end kind of thing. Um, and one time I did this performance and the, um, organiser came up to me and said, Oh, I don't know if I should tell you about this, but, uh, one [00:24:30] of those guys just, uh, just said, Oh, he didn't think you were very funny. He didn't know why you were the last person on. He just didn't get it. Uh um, because he didn't find me attractive. What? What the If I wasn't doing it for you, mate. And actually, it pointed out to me because I probably don't find him attractive, either. I mean, it's just like what the what the what? That has got absolutely nothing to do with it. But that's [00:25:00] it does, um, unfortunately have something to do with it. So, uh, you know, not only, um, you know, when I was reading something, uh, yesterday about Ursula Carson and, uh, there were some people saying, Oh, she's so funny. It's great comments on a on an, you know, Internet thing. She's so funny. I think she's so cool and blah, blah, blah. And then, um, other people going, I don't think she's funny. And that's fine. No, you don't have to find anybody [00:25:30] funny in particular. And then there were Ah, she's fat, lesbian, blah blah, blah. And it's kind of like that's got nothing to do with whether she's funny or not. She doesn't even actually spend that much time talking about that. It's not a focus of what she's doing. Why is that what you see when she has so many other attributes? Um, that she's actually making jokes about the things that she's talking about? Maybe if if you didn't like something there [00:26:00] that she was talking about, that would be OK, but otherwise, just off. So, you know, even 20 years later, it's still the same stuff. And it's just they're talking about somebody else instead of talking about me, you do stand up as yourself as Cathy Sheet, and you also do characters. What are some of your favourite characters? Oh, well, the characters, I kind of think of [00:26:30] them as being drag characters, whether they're male or female. Um, because, um, they're not me. They're always someone who is. I hope that, uh, significantly different than me. Um, I guess my favourite one would be the one I do most often, which is, uh, the, uh, incredibly sleazy, uh, Tony Alon. Um, I. I wonder whether he's, uh, kind of, [00:27:00] uh a an alternative actual, other side of me. Um, because he behaves in such a, um uh, inappropriate. Um, lewd, Um uh, objectionable way, Uh, in a way that, um nice, polite me would never ever behave. Um, is that actually, uh, an aspect of me [00:27:30] inside of me screaming to get out? Um, I don't think so, because, um, you know, people who behave like that, um, don't make their way in the world very well. um or is it just something that because it's so opposite for me? I enjoy doing it. I'd I'd like to think that it is the opposite of me enjoying doing it then that it's another side of me that I'm just not letting out. Um, there are other characters that I really like doing. Um, kinda, uh, [00:28:00] you know, when I play a man, I kind of like someone who's just, uh, kind of quite ordinary, um, and relatable and, um, the kind of guy that you might meet on the street, but with certain characteristics exaggerated for comedic effect. And I suppose it's the same with the women, though when I do drag characters, women, Um, it's Yeah. It's [00:28:30] still just so very different from me. I think that that's what I like doing, drag. It's It's different for me. Um, you get to play dress up and play silly buggers and just, um, have a laugh. You were involved in the butch and Butch exhibition. Can you tell us about why you, um you wanted to be a part of that? Um, possibly because if I didn't, I'd be kicking myself. Um, it seemed [00:29:00] like a good idea at the time. Um, it is kind of, um, a little bit weird for me because I am really quite introverted. Um, but there are particular situations in which, um, it is OK to, um, make a song and dance. And I guess that this was a, uh, a way to make a song and dance, actually, about me, rather than, um, another [00:29:30] character. Um, and even when, um, when I'm doing something like stand up comedy you you you're doing it to be as much like you as possible, Um, and to sound as conversational as possible and stuff. But you you're not really talking about the things that matter. You're talking about things which are funny and or or what you think can get a a laugh. And you're letting out your particular, um, way of thinking. [00:30:00] But not really what the innermost thoughts are. Not that this is kind of that confessional either, but it's a little bit more about me, and, um Yeah, it's a little bit strange for me to want to do this. Yeah.
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