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Well, um, I'm a very typically New Zealand born and bred person, um, to, um, a working mother and father who we grew up in a state house for Children. Um, my twin sister and I and then stepbrother and sister to my mother's first husband, Um, working family. Uh, after the war, Dad, uh, was a plasterer. Mother was a seamstress at the age of seven. [00:00:30] Father, um, left home leaving a mother out to bring up the family by herself. And we had, you know, state schools, Wesley Primary, Wesley Intermediate, then Mount Rosco grammar school. And then, of course, as soon as I could, I started work to help bring some funds into the house. But also, I suppose to mainly satisfy myself having had no funds at all. Um, and those sorts of things I most young men [00:01:00] at that stage wanted a motorbike, and then a car and those sorts of things and then independence to live alone in a flat. What? What kind of, um, year are we talking? Um 1951 was when I was born. So, um, by the 1969 I suppose I was, uh, at the age of 18 I'd left home. Um, 19. I was left home and working. [00:01:30] Um, And then when I As soon as I turned 21 I saw an advertisement in the paper for by Air New Zealand advertising for, um, flight crew. So I decided I'd never travelled overseas, and this would be an easy, economical way to do it. I'd pay for it, so I applied. And within three weeks, I was in their training school. It was a bit of a rush because they were bringing in the DC tens, the new jumbo [00:02:00] jets. Well, um, and after that, six weeks of training, which normally was 12 weeks because they needed a lot of crew quickly, I was in the air flying DC tens, and that was a approved, uh uh, very interesting lifestyle, but only for about 18 months. Because after 18 months, you've served a million cups of teas to, um, people and you think, can I do another million cups of teas? And then I did [00:02:30] something rather foolish. I brought um, I brought a stereo in for one of the hostesses, Um, under my concession because I was passenger back when she was crewing back and, um, they said that was inappropriate. So they decided that the best thing I could do was resign. Anyway, it was at a time when I felt I was ready to resign as well. So then I went to work for national electrical and engineering for [00:03:00] a few years as their shipping purchasing manager. And then I moved to a textile firm called Snow Ranger Textiles for a few years, Uh, and from there to another textile company. Um, at which time I ascertained there was appropriately some opportunity for me to join a couple of other guys to start our own business [00:03:30] not in textiles, but in servicing textile importers by being their customs agents and shipping managers and that sort of thing. So we started a, um, a customs and shipping, uh, operation, which was very successful until one of the partners decided to have a major, um, melt down and leave the, um, lead [00:04:00] the company into this. I think it was called Self Transformation. New Age thinking and all this sort of stuff. Well, I didn't want a bar of it, so I resigned and then went to start up a restaurant just as an alternative lifestyle with my then partner and, um, as well as starting up another customs and shipping agency under my own hat because they wouldn't pay me a penny for my third share. Anyway, uh, started that up. And that [00:04:30] went very well until I finally decided to close that all up in about 19, 2000, Um, and retire, which lasted for about 90 days and then thought, I have to do something. So I, um, came back in to volunteer my time at body positive. But all the way through that I'd been very active in the gay community in terms of helping get the [00:05:00] New Zealand AIDS Foundation established by joining the Founding Board. My good friend Alan Ivory invited me to come on to the board with Kate Leslie as the the then chairperson. And my role was to help fund raising because I was in private business. And, uh, it was the Their perception was I knew how to find money and, uh um, and after the AIDS Foundation, then I got very much involved in the hero project, um [00:05:30] uh, and got involved through that for many years, starting the hero parade, and then after hero moving across into body positive. And here I am today. When did you first become aware of HIV and AIDS? I suppose it would have been in the, um, just in the early mid eighties. Um, because we were seeing these reports in the media. And more than that, I was hearing from friends. [00:06:00] Um, it was rumoured when Bruce Burnett came back that it he wasn't well, and he was trying to convince the ministry of this terrible thing coming. We didn't even have a name for it then. It was just a disease that was killing gay people. Um, it sounded too far fetched to believe. But then the media started giving these horrendous reports, and, uh and it was all, of course, during law reform as well. I was very much involved with gay law reform, [00:06:30] helping Fran Wilde, and, um, and that was very much a part of, um, having established the AIDS foundation, which was predominantly supported to, um, support at that time, a criminal class of people which which the ministry and its existing infrastructure could not hope to reach, or or or target all to be able to combat AIDS [00:07:00] and Um uh, So my awareness, I suppose, was like anybody else's. But then I became very involved with, um The reason for law reform was so that we could decriminalise a class of people and have much greater effectiveness of the AIDS programmes into our community. So they sort of went hand in hand for me at that time in the mid eighties, HIV and law reform, et cetera. And then, of course, I think it was 86. We got law reform, [00:07:30] which was fantastic. That was a momentous occasion. I can remember being down in the house and in Parliament at the time with Fran and my good friend Alan Ivory. Allen wrote the Constitution for the AIDS Foundation. He and Don McMullan, uh, helped write the legislation for the Amendment to the Crimes Act for Fran Wilde. And Fran invited us down for the third reading. And I can remember, um, I can remember sitting in the house and looking [00:08:00] down and Trevor Mallard looking up. And of course, we we'd all become very close friends in those days and Trevor telling me or mouthing, we've got the numbers, we've got the numbers, but of course you could never be sure, because until that final vote was called, it was quite a knife edge. But it was an incredible experience to actually win. And it was a really interesting campaign, wasn't it? Because it was so also tightened with the the kind of emergence of of AIDS. It was It [00:08:30] was very much in terms of, uh, some of the rationale behind decriminalising homosexuality was so that you could, um, rationally reach a, um uh, a piece of the population that was predominantly underground in terms of the law. And of course, the subsequent more difficult to reach for having the, um I suppose whatever there was they had to provide for for, uh, people with HIV or to to to reach them just to [00:09:00] to communicate with them. So they did go pretty much hand in hand. Although, um, there was that strong connection. Law reform very much stood on its own merits to decriminalise what should have been decriminalised earlier. Can you paint for me a picture of of what the feeling was like in New Zealand when those first reports of AIDS emerged, you know? What was it? Something like Oh, that's over there in San Francisco was it was very much a oh, God. Only in [00:09:30] America. You know, we sort of hear these extremist reports and and you think, Oh, only in America, and we'd heard these things, and they really weren't very clear at all. Just simple reports about, um, people wasting and dying And, um, those sorts of things and and, um but then it was I. I started to be identified with, um, with homosexuals, and that's when I suppose we started to prick our ears [00:10:00] up. And, um And then, of course, um, uh, the New Zealand swung into action after Bruce Burnett came back and got things going. He met with some great people. Um, Richard, Um oh, Richard, the physician from the bays. Uh, his name will come back later, but anyway, um, he was very much involved in getting things going medically with the ministry as well as Bruce. [00:10:30] And then, um, Bruce came up to Auckland Hospital, met Kate and Kate. Leslie got her going, and she Raed some other professionals around like Max Abbott, who was the then director. I think of the Mental Health Foundation were very much involved in mental health and Myriam Sara, Um, other people like that was just great. And then once they'd signed that, then Alan approached me to come on board for to support them to, um, uh, help with the fundraising [00:11:00] because the they had our first grant of just $30,000 which, of course, was gone almost in no time. And we swung into action. And, um, we got our first grant of $100,000 out of the ministry. And I remember Alan and I went to see Bob Harvey in his then capacity as running one of the large advertising organisations. And Bob was very helpful as to how we could start to blitz, [00:11:30] uh, again, the community in terms of HIV awareness, et cetera. Um, yeah, it was a case of getting what message you put out there. There wasn't much information about it in terms of, and the media was certainly sensationalising it because it, you know, people were, um, were just simply falling like flies in America. And then, of course, we started to see the devastating effects it had around here and the mid eighties through to the early [00:12:00] nineties, and the number of people that were just, um um dying. It's, uh I mean it it was it it it was a a sense of Oh, it's only in America. It won't impact on us. It's, you know, over there, it's not here. And then we heard reports of it in Australia reporting its first cases. And then, of course, um uh, it it just wasn't as if it came knocking on the door and announced it was here just suddenly it was [00:12:30] because suddenly people were getting sick. Um, and, uh, it's it's as if it had all ready as if it was here. It probably was already here. It's just that it's just started to surface. It started to manifest itself into people becoming really quite sick. And the community was, um it it it was quite amazing because almost every time you met somebody, the conversation [00:13:00] was a quick update on on what you'd heard. And it was all rumour and all gossip. But, you know, you've heard so and so has become ill or so and so is in hospital. Or, um, guess, uh, so and so has died. And I guess it was, um um, pretty scary stuff. It's It's as if it was, um you'd heard about this thing from offshore et cetera. But now, suddenly you're in the middle of a minefield where things were going off all around you, and, uh, people [00:13:30] and people you actually knew, uh, were identified as becoming sick or in hospital, um, or so and so has been diagnosed with it. The diagnosis was really when people were ill. It was a little bit after that. We, uh we were testing people, and I was very much involved again. It, uh, with the AIDS foundation in trying to get, um, uh, clinics set up so that we could do testing. One of the first things [00:14:00] we did was, um, to employ a, uh, an executive director for the AIDS Foundation. We had at that stage only, uh, a staff of, uh, really three volunteers, Neville Cry and Tony Hughes and and Ray Taylor. Um, and one of the first things we had to do was when we had some money was to employ an executive director. So Ellen Ivory and myself were the interview panel of two, and we interviewed a range of people, but Jill [00:14:30] Amos was also part of the board. And she said that she'd had knew of a man called Warren, um, to be interviewed, Um, and he should be considered for the position. So we interviewed, uh, Warren and employed him for the executive director of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. And he did, uh, he did a He did a great job. Um, because he came with some political astuteness, and it was highly politicised HIV [00:15:00] in those days. And, um um uh, Warren Lindberg was just excellent. And going through that minefield of politics around HIV and AIDS and and and on top of that, he he had come from a background of teaching and he had strong connections in the labour movement and in in that educational ministry sort of stuff. So again, working with the Ministry of Health, he was excellent in that, too. So, I, I sort of think one of the greatest things I ever was part of was [00:15:30] getting Warren on board to take up that position. And then one of the first things we did was to rehouse the AIDS Foundation. At that time, it was in a tiny little office. Um, up there in, um, where Metropole Uh the Metropolis building. I think it's called today and there was a building there which housed Lufthansa, and we had a tiny little office in the back. Um, we had to rehouse it and we finally got a clinic opened [00:16:00] in the Wallace block, the old Wallace block, which is now demolished and gone. That was up at Auckland Hospital. It was in the basement. And, um uh, that provided some testing for HIV. And then, of course, we opened up. Um the next centre was in Wellington and the next centre was in Christchurch. But they were unusual models. They did not fit within the DH B, um, model [00:16:30] that they would The DH B would be totally in control and and and own the funding for them. This was separate, and that again was a whole rash of infighting, um, between the AIDS Foundation and getting the DH BS to actually provide and accommodate the clinic for which for which we would have control. And of course, um, there was that, um, sexual health felt that should be under their control. Infectious diseases was [00:17:00] something on board and felt it should be under their control and then to have it completely under a community group. Control was alien to them, but we finally set those up. And we got those, um uh, testing going and then counsellors coming on board for positive diagnoses. What was it like? Um, when the tests actually came in? Because, I mean, for a period in the eighties where there was no test, as you say, people were just, you know, kind of, uh, it was only when [00:17:30] they got ill that, you know, they suddenly realised that they might have something. That's right. Um, and that was one of the first things they they actually did was to find a a test for which it could be. And I can remember that it was finally identified as a virus. Um, and, uh and then, um, we saw that come through fairly quickly. I think Richard Meach, uh, was very involved in keeping New Zealand medically up to date with what was happening in America and Australia [00:18:00] and was quick to, uh, make sure we could provide the, uh, the laboratories to, uh, with the facility to to do the blood work. But the testing in itself was a frightening prospect because I can remember we would do, um, people, people would come in for testing in the old way. The phlebotomist would take blood from your arm and it would go to the laboratory and you'd get the results back in a week if it was negative, because you'd only go to what we call the ELISA test. [00:18:30] And if the ELISA test was negative, it was negative that would come back. But if the Eliza test was positive, the hospital would keep it for a confirmatory test what they call the Western Block test. And that would take another week. And it started to get quite scary because people knew that if they didn't get their results back within a week, that it was likely to be positive. And that was really frightening for people. So we then I think I I might be a bit hazy on this, but I think at that stage, we had to implement a regime [00:19:00] of saying results would be two weeks before people could access them again because we were worried. In fact, there were suicides, um, between one and two weeks. So again, uh, to to just simply put everybody into that same level. We wouldn't give results in two weeks. I might be wrong on that. But I remember that was a real issue at the time for people, um, coming in for testing and the reason for the potential reason for somebody suing in that that [00:19:30] that time frame was it? Just because the life expectancy of somebody with AIDS at that time was was not high? Well, it it wasn't. We had no idea of what life expectancy people could have. All we knew was that, uh, that we'd heard this thing from overseas. And suddenly we're in the middle of this minefield with people dropping all around us. And we we now could clearly identify that people, um, that that was impacting the gay community. And suddenly people were getting sick and and [00:20:00] not long after they were dying. Um, there was no cure. There was nothing there at the time. Uh, it was some way later that we heard of this, uh, medicine called a ZT, but that was still way off in America, and still very much a trial situation. All we knew is that, uh, that you got this thing and and you died from it and people all around us were getting this thing. And, uh, and we dying. Um, and [00:20:30] people were doing all sorts of things. I mean, I was very much involved in my business at the time and had a lot of travel between Australia and New Zealand. In fact, I had an apartment in Sydney as well as my home in Auckland, and my brother was in Sydney and a lot of friends in Sydney. It was still the mecca for gay men to migrate to ultimately, And, um uh, and I sort of saw it on both sides of the Tasman. More so in Australia, where it really had grasped the community and [00:21:00] people were getting sickened and dying. In fact, I can remember one guy. Um, he was a close friend of my partner and he had been invited to a party, and this young man who wasn't very well wanted to have a party, so he was going to go to a motel and and kill himself, Uh, but have a party. And then the last thing in the morning overdose. Um and I can remember, [00:21:30] um, this young man who friend of us was so, uh, it It actually, uh, he thought he would cope with it, but he didn't cope with it at all. In fact, it changed him. Uh, he became very, very ill for many years after and impacted very badly on him. And And that was all there was no good news. It was It was, um, death all around you. Um, yeah. It was just just frightening stuff. And then, of course, um uh, when [00:22:00] when I got my diagnosis, Um, there was no, There was absolutely no cure or nothing. And they had no idea what time to expect and said, Look, don't panic. But, you know, we think this will be at least six months before you have to be concerned. And, uh, about, uh, death and dying and all that sort of thing. It was pretty scary stuff back then. What? We, um [00:22:30] I think I was about 19. 88 1990. So 30 something, I suppose? Yeah, I because I was working in Sydney as I was in my own business, I thought, Oh, I should just pop in and have a, um, a check up. And, um, anyway, I went back [00:23:00] the following week um and he said we had They'd lost all my blood results, so I had to start the whole thing again. Well, that was in a week. I was over there between starting the week and finishing the week I visited the doctor. So I did the second lot of tests at the end of the week. And, uh, it was another month before I was back in and I went back, and, uh, it was then that he told me the result was positive. And, um uh was rather taken back for it, because by that stage, we knew that [00:23:30] it was, uh, sexually transmitted. Um, and I thought, um, I knew everything there was to know about it and which, in fact, there was very little to be known. So, um, you could say you knew everything about it. Certainly. All that all that was known about it. Um, but we did know that it was being sexually transmitted and that that we should, uh, use condoms. Uh, and very much. Um, people were being extraordinarily [00:24:00] careful and I. I just cannot remember the incident or the occasion in which this transition of infection of the virus would have been transmitted to me Because again, I was a young, sexually active gay man living the pre age party lifestyle in Sydney with, um, all of the accoutrements of that sort of lifestyle and what it provided and and everything that I could, you know, materialistically [00:24:30] want or socially achieve was all mine. And my partner and I were having a great lifestyle and, uh, thought we were being careful. But I can remember, um, uh, the reason I went to the doctor in Sydney is the week before I wasn't feeling too well, went home to their Sydney apartment, sat down and started to get violently. Um um um, just shaking. I couldn't stop shaking as if you've got this [00:25:00] heavy, cold and shivering, etcetera. And finally, when I could finally get off the, um, lounge chair to go to bed, I got up in the morning and found I was all I was completely covered in some kind of red rash. So that's what drove me to the doctor, um, for a test. And as I say, I went back at the end of the week and, um, they'd lost the blood, so I had to do them again. And when I got back to Auckland, um saw the doctors but [00:25:30] refused to let them do a test because I'd already done one in Sydney. And I didn't want people in Auckland to know because I was very much involved in the, um AIDS Foundation and law Reform and my own business, et cetera. And then, of course, um uh, when I got the diagnosis in Sydney, it it was a terrible, um, situation, I suppose, then and not long after my partner was also diagnosed positive. Um [00:26:00] and that was, um, um, equally as unattractive. But it just, you know, seemed to be whether whether we were being diagnosed for something we'd had sitting there for years. We had no idea or recently contracted it. And perhaps possibly I'd had it for some time because I cannot remember exactly the time of transmission or even have a suspicion. And a lot of people had sort of think, Well, maybe that there was that time. Perhaps, but I can't [00:26:30] remember any specific time one or two incidents that perhaps may be, But, um, again, I always remember being careful with condoms once we knew about it. Strange um, but, you know, I call that the immaculate infection. Anyway, that was back then. And you were saying that the doctor was saying, what, six months you've got six months to Yeah, this [00:27:00] was a doctor in Holdsworth house in Sydney, in Oxford Street. And, um, he was a He was a I can't remember his name, but he was very much involved with, um He was a gay man and very much involved with, um uh, HIV positive clients and, uh, his life. I remember his. It impacted badly on him, too. He had to leave after a while because he was just delivering these death sentences to people almost daily [00:27:30] and, uh, seeing people sick all around. And he went away, in fact, and another doctor started to look after me. And he said, You know, we've got this medication now from America called AZT. We'd like to start you on this. And that was fantastic because, um, I was thinking that what am I going to do for the rest of my life? I don't want to spend the rest of it worrying about making money for the next payroll. Um, I was [00:28:00] sort of getting to a conclusion of wanting to do what everybody did sort out what time I had left and plan how to get as much enjoyment out of life as I could. Um, so I thought, OK, well, I'll try this a 10. And it really started to do something. It started to build up my immune system again, and it started to reduce the virus and and it was fantastic. But of course it was monotherapy. And monotherapy by itself is not sufficient. So after [00:28:30] a few months, we started to see a decline in the immune system once again. And, um uh, and that was a pattern that they were seeing again and again and again countless times. And, of course, they they were then introduced a new medication. I think it was D, DC or DD. I, the great big horse. We used to call them horse pills. They were difficult to swallow. And the pill regime pill regime back then was pretty frightening because I can remember [00:29:00] at one stage having to take over 30 pills in a day. And, um, and and people weren't staying well, uh, either Anyway, dual therapy. It was a repeat of monotherapy. It worked well for a little while, uh, until they finally worked out that a triple therapy was the absolute gold standard for people. But by to know, triple therapy arrived. I was already resistant to, uh, to some of the [00:29:30] classes of drugs because, having failed mono and and and dual therapy, So anyway, as more drugs came along and so forth and we were able to find a cocktail and the invention of protease inhibitors which were much stronger in another class of drugs, um, I've always been shall we say, pretty much at the forefront of of getting the newest drugs to, uh, to take and And today I'm I'm delighted that, you know, I'm still here, [00:30:00] still here, but my partner never made it. Sadly, he, um he he suffered terribly from the side effects of these early medications. They were highly toxic, and, um, they would make his life just miserable. Hell, the the nausea and diarrhoea and sickness. And he thought that they were, you know, chose not to take them. And I I can remember struggling to hold him down while his cousin tried to force these pills down his throat and [00:30:30] Finally, we just had to accept that he wasn't going to take them. And he wasn't going to be well in the hospital. Uh, at that time was Rod. Alice Pegler was the physician in charge, and he told us that we thought he would die because of not taking medication. And he'd also had to tell us that he had tuberculosis at the same time which we thought didn't exist anymore. But suddenly we were seeing the reemergence of things like TB and so forth. [00:31:00] So we arranged to put Victoria to stay with his cousin, uh, in an apartment in Lorne Street. And it was called the Maria in the sky because it was a beautiful big apartment on the fifth floor top floor of this building just next to Khartoum place. And, um, because there were a lot of, um, uh his cousins and Maori boys, gay Maori boys living there. He was able to get 24 7 care. And, um, it was there that he spent his final days, [00:31:30] and I still remember his his last morning. Uh, and I'm not gonna tell you that it's too technical, personal, and I do get emotional, even after all years. He is remembering it. But, um, it was a very graceful determination that he, um And then, uh, we had a lovely service in Saint Matthews, in the city for him and in the sort of traditional way of farewell people. And then we took him home to his, [00:32:00] which was in and as I can remember, because there was still all the stigma. There still is, of course, even today the stigma and worry and fear about aids that we weren't even sure we'd be able to take his body, Um, on to the But, um um, his, uh his grandmother had such mana. She'd passed away, But the memory of her and his family was such, uh, so powerful that of course, we [00:32:30] were welcomed on, and he lay in state, as I call it for three days on the before we finally turned him into his grave. And that was, uh, that was an amazing experience. Yeah, And then I thought we know a lot more about, um, HIV and AIDS, and we know what causes it. [00:33:00] And we know now that we've got medication for it. And, um, the AIDS Foundation is really geared up to it, and it's doing a great job. It was time for me to, um, move on to something and because we'd achieved law reform, I thought what we need now is social reform because you've changed the law. But still, stigma and discrimination about homosexuality, et cetera, was, um, was still very much stereotyped [00:33:30] and paedophilia, criminality, effeminacy, et cetera. So I thought, we need some social reform. And I, um My good friend Rex Halliday had some initiative within the New Zealand AIDS Foundation to do AAA party. And because I'd at that age in my life a lot of experience with a lot of parties and in Sydney, And that was half of the fun of having a business that I could transit between Sydney Office and Auckland [00:34:00] office was I could also go to all of the Sydney parties and the underground parties and all those sorts of things. So, I, I, um I joined um, Rex's little group to help organise the hero party. I came on in, um uh, for hero two. And, um, so did a man called Scott Johnston who, uh, has become a very close personal friend. And, um I can remember still being on the board [00:34:30] of the AIDS Foundation when when poor old rex started to have some problems with with the AIDS foundation. So, uh, we decided that this little party project should carry on And, um uh, and Scott Johnston and I, um, went to see Warren Lindberg and said this has to carry on because it's become so valuable and we had, um, some difference of opinion, but, [00:35:00] uh, we decided to to, um, register hero. Um and it became the hero Charitable trust. Um and also, we then thought rather than risk the trust aspect which all the proceeds from the party were distributed to the community to fight HIV aids rather than, um, expose the trust to commercial risk. We'd also then establish a legal liability the Hero Project Limited, which would [00:35:30] carry on the commercial trading aspect of the hero party. And it was the hero Project Limited. That was the legal entity that undertook all of the commercial activity of organising the party and the festival and later the parade. And then once that had all been realised, and that the proceeds determined, uh, those, uh, profits were passed across to the trust to distribute through to the the community. But very quickly we found this [00:36:00] was getting, shall we say, uh, beyond, um, a small operation that was escalating very quickly. And, um, there was ambitions about a parade, and there was ambitions to make it bigger and better. So we determined that we should, um, keep a seeding fund of 30,000 for the next year's event, which we did. And, um and I can remember the next event had a massive loss. Um, and [00:36:30] rather than because it was too valuable to let go, I put my hand in my pocket and I can remember way back then, paying out $76,000 to keep the thing to keep the creditors and away and paid and keep the reputation, uh, going well. And I made sure then because I was, uh, chairman from, um uh three hero three on. Made sure that we managed [00:37:00] budgets and that we ran it properly and, uh, really did start to come together nicely. And, um uh, it was in our hero four that we decided that there should be a parade. I think it was hero four. That we started the first parade down Queen Street and hero five. It was Queen Street, and then we moved it up to Ponsonby Road. But by that stage, um, when we applied, it was really the parade which brought the whole matter to the attention [00:37:30] of the civic authorities. And I can remember, um, the the other gay groups telling us that they were struggling with funding applications with the Auckland Auckland City Council. And, um, I can remember us having to go to the Auckland City Council for permission. First of all, to get licences for our liquor, uh, selling at the parties and, uh, the horrendous problems [00:38:00] Scott was having. And in securing those licences, it was virtually virtually right up to the 11th hour sometimes. And we thought there was more than just protocol and bureaucracy involved. We thought there was some some real, um, uh, discrimination consideration going on in there. And finally, um, when we organised the parade, we we were, um, uh asking for some support. And we knew we [00:38:30] were advised by officers that the councillors were very much against the whole homosexuality display et cetera and wouldn't support it. So we found out what the internal machinations of council granting were. And we found that council officers had authority to make a grant of up to 10,000 without having to go further up for political consideration. And I can remember getting [00:39:00] a grant for 10,000, which absolutely infuriated some of the council offices, council laws. Um and then even worse, I then went around to each of the local community boards. And I remember Kate Leslie, who was chairman, a chairperson of the AIDS Foundation, was also, uh, I think she was chairperson of the Hobson Bay Community Board and, um approached Kate and asked for some funding. And I went to lots of them, and I got funding [00:39:30] from at least three or four or five of them. And I remember again the, um, the deputy mayor at that time, David Hay, who, incidentally, was at school with me at Mount Rosco grammar. And um uh, he expressed his complete annoyance with council officers making those grants to us, and, um, and then we started to we had a community meeting, as we always did at the end of a hero, and we decided that we should, [00:40:00] uh, take this issue to the council, and we then asked to appear within the council meeting or address the councillors at one of their regular meetings. Um, about the hero project. And, um uh, that quickly escalated because we heard that the deputy mayor was asking his more conservative Christian, uh uh, people groups to come along to support his argument. [00:40:30] So we then decided we had to quickly spread the word to invite gay people to come and support us. And before we knew it, the whole thing had escalated and become very public. Um, and media, media interest and, uh, was being transferred from the, um from the normal, Um uh, council meeting room, uh, in the town hall to the main chamber. And, uh, and we filled up. I mean, the whole [00:41:00] town hall was filled, even in the, um, the gallery seats, uh, with all sorts of people from, uh, supporting and neither very much for hero or very much against. And, uh, and I can remember going to Peter Beck. Peter Beck was the reverend at Saint Matthew's in the city at the time and saying, Peter, I'm asked asking you to come and support us and speak with me to the councillors about how important this event is for the gay community [00:41:30] and and for us to be able to, um, identify with the positive aspects of of our community for the integration, et cetera, and communicate and educate people about HIV and A I DS because that was very much a strong focus of the reason of heros existence. And, um uh, Peter came and spoke for us. And then Warren Lindberg also came and spoke as well. And that was, um that was a powerful time for [00:42:00] our community to confront what was one of the most last one of the last bastions of of, um of homophobia. But but, um um, uh, official homophobia, if you like, it was within local government. And in fact, it resulted in us taking a complaint to the Human Rights Commission. Um, about their shall we say, um, discrimination and handling [00:42:30] the applications of gay groups for funding. Um, because the the councillors at the time were very anti, um, hero, and in some of the subcommittees would make disparaging comments about certain applications from gay groups, et cetera, and I'm embarrassed to say in in in many years later, it still happens to some degree. Even when I was involved in an elected representative [00:43:00] within council, I'd still hear these comments. Anyway, At that time, I can remember thinking we need to get some of the councillors on support. So I, uh, telephoned every single councillor from my home and asked if they would support the hero project. And at the time Judith Tizard was, um, the she was the local member of Parliament for Auckland Central. She had just recently, um, taken over what was Sandra Lee's electorate seat. And [00:43:30] Sandra Lee was very much for the event, because when we had the parade, she was in the parade and, uh, very happy to support it. And then Judith Tizard was very supportive, and she came to my apartment up in Gunson Street when I was phoning these counsellors and she listened to some of the abuse I I got one counsellor and I won't say who, but threatened me with all sorts of action and said I should be locked up. Uh, I was a criminal and I was perverted and etcetera, and [00:44:00] it was just shall we say something that I identified and made. It was very clear for me that the homophobia or the stigma and discrimination was very much a generational thing very much in terms of my father and and parents generation, because they had, um the the the only understanding of homosexuality was criminalised behaviour, etcetera. And, um, [00:44:30] uh, I suddenly got a taste. A very first hand. Direct taste of this, um, this this opinion of homophobia. So I thought, Well, we can't allow that to, um, continue. And we have to We have to take, um, the council on. And we have to argue for the parade to carry on and and to be promoted. And it was becoming very, very popular because it was everything that could constitute rebellion [00:45:00] to civic authority. I suppose, um and we were mindful that we wanted to still have it very much cutting edge in terms of its attractiveness and and its sexual challenges, because it was homosexuals in the face of the general community. But I also wanted it to be, um, fun and friendly and and, uh, very much, um, saying we are we we're not [00:45:30] a we we we we we shouldn't. You shouldn't be afraid of us because we're human too, and putting very much, um, a community, um, attractiveness to it by being outrageous and flamboyant and all those things that people sometimes associated with the community into actual floats and party parades and marching boys and all that fabulous as well as having the the hero, uh, remembrance [00:46:00] float for those that had died from AIDS and having organisations like body positive And, um uh, the other AIDS organisations involved to, um, the Auckland AIDS Council to, um, be very much involved in in the in the in the parade as well. And it just seemed to go well, um, thereafter it become it become huge. Um, it was a a national brand name, and and we were being invited to [00:46:30] speak at conferences for advertising organisations about how we'd turned this little community event into a national household brand name. Um And then, of course, um uh, Scott decided to move to Wellington again for personal reasons or relationship reasons. And I asked Mike McSweeney to come and be the exec, the [00:47:00] director of hero. Um and that went well, Uh, and then, in sort of 1998 there was a strong suggestion that perhaps my time was over, and we should have We should have some new blood, um, to take it forward and to carry on. And I I've of course, um remember thinking Well, yeah. Perhaps there's some sense in that and some new [00:47:30] ideas and so forth. Um, and but I was a little bit conflicted because it was a It was a baby that Scott and I had taken under our wing, and we developed it to be this incredible, uh, incredible festival. Um, and I can still remember some of those parties and and and the parades, et cetera. They were, um, totally unheard of or unseen in in New Zealand. And they would They became instantly, um, [00:48:00] popular. And And I can remember the achievement of getting after having all of the antagonism from the Auckland City Council, um, suddenly being gazumped when we'd managed to get the prime Minister to agree to come and open the parade for us and having Jenny Shipley there, and, um, and and the amazing um uh uh an I did to stopped everybody in in the hero offices and made this announcement. [00:48:30] And there was rapturous applause Um, but again, that was just a a smart politician, knowing that there'd be a, uh, 100 and 50 to 250,000 people gathered in one place. And she was she could count votes better than anybody. So we we were happy to have that. And, of course, the council and the mayor took a very dim view about that and said she was sending the wrong message, et cetera. But we were delighted, in fact, that it [00:49:00] it certainly did expose, I suppose any antagonism towards, um, homosexuality. It seemed to bring it out of people and and, uh, in in a way that we hadn't experienced since the early law reform days. Um, but certainly there were gay people suddenly becoming proud to be who they were and and and no longer no longer afraid. Um, but we had [00:49:30] still institutional opposition. I can remember on Pons Road, um, near the western park. There's the, uh, church. And forgive me. I'm not sure if it's the Mormon Church or Seventh Day Adventist Church, but it's in secure grounds with the fencing around it. And I remember going to ask them if they would allow the prime minister and her entourage to park the official government limousines in their grounds whilst the prime [00:50:00] minister came over to the, um, front of Western Park to open the hero parade. And, uh, they said they'd have to think about that. And then two weeks later, they came back and said they would accept that as long as I signed a document. Um uh, that acknowledged in that acknowledged their acceptance of allowing the prime minister to park her car on their premises could not, in any possible way, [00:50:30] be interpreted as their support or endorsement of the hero project Parade and homosexuality. So So we still had all of that institutionalised stuff coming at us from in in odd situations. And, um uh, but again, the incredible success of the parade and then getting that wonderful man Johnny Givens to come on board from, I think TV three, we we contracted to [00:51:00] film the hero parade, and we got a lovely fee, I think $30,000 a year, two or three of them filming the parade, Uh, and and getting, um uh, so much support because, uh, I can remember. It was all of the funds from the party that we used to fund the parade in years in the first year or two of the of the parade because no sponsors were would want to get on board. And then suddenly they saw the success [00:51:30] of the parade and the people that came to it and the potential commercial opportunities, and we were flooded with sponsors. And I can remember both lion and DB breweries wanting to be the main sponsor for us because they just saw so many commercial opportunities for themselves. And we again, um, saw this incredible machine grow to be, uh, the the thing it was. But to finally have some financial support and backing that, [00:52:00] um, had previously stayed away as if it was, you know, um, some disease ridden thing. But now it was the most fabulous night time thing, and, um, and and everyone rushed to be associated with it. So that was up until about 1999 I. I took on the advice and thought, Well, my good friend Scott had now moved overseas with his partner, and so had Mike McSweeney, who took over the directorship after Scott [00:52:30] and I decided to step down But I said I'd stay on to help write the budgets for the next year. And, um uh, they didn't seem to want my advice. They were keen to, shall we say, um, take it in a new direction with a new artistic interpretation, and I felt a little bit sidelined, but nevertheless, II I was very proud of what had happened. Um, until we [00:53:00] saw the financial mess that they'd taken it into. And I was quite devastated about that because I offered to be very much, um uh, in confidence. Uh uh, an available source for the committee and the chair at any stage, Um, for them to call me or talk over things because most of the mistakes I thought they made, we'd we'd potentially made them or we'd got through them or something like that. And there is some wisdom [00:53:30] in history, I suppose. But, um, they they determined to take it the way they wanted to, and that created the financial loss, which I don't think can be attributed to any single person or anything like that. It was just just an unfortunate thing that happened. And, uh, I remember going to the creditors meeting And, um, there was a lot of goodwill and support from people, and even the creditors were upset this had happened. Uh, and they were very [00:54:00] supportive, and they would not, um, withdraw their support for the hero parade and festival the next year. And that was all in place again. And they held, I suppose, off their accounts. Um um And then the second year, outside of my chairmanship, I suppose, um was another huge financial loss. And, um, and and and so was the year after that. And I was just devastated at how hero, um which, [00:54:30] um Scott and I had developed to be this wonderful thing was just being driven down through the floor because the financial expertise and infrastructure, I suppose, or management I don't know what you'd call it. And I I can't blame anybody or anything because I didn't have the close hands on. Um but I do remember being very afraid for it. Uh, when I when I left and and little regard was given to my [00:55:00] suggestion around budgets and sponsorship and grants. And I can remember saying I am listed as the current financial director for the Project Limited. I'm now starting to insist that you have my name removed from the company's office on that which they did. And, um, and there was no shall we say legal obligation for me, but I just felt this terrible, terrible, um, sadness for where it had finished [00:55:30] up. Um, but again, um, I thought, Well, um, you know, things move on. It was the only time in my life I actually got a counselling session for for the for for, uh, seeing that the demise of hero and And there were some wonderful people in the community who came out to try and resurrect and support it. And I remember there were Jay Benny was involved in in, uh, organising things and and Michael Bancroft and [00:56:00] lots of good people with lots of good will. Um, but it just never, ever quite got back to where it, uh, had had where we'd taken it. And, um, by this stage, I was, um, volunteering my time across at body positive. Um, it was about this was around 4001. I was given a royal honour for all my work with, um, with, um, work in the community um and, [00:56:30] um, And thought I should do something more, um, to help. So I got more involved with body positive at that stage, and we were in an office much the size of this, which is probably about 12 ft by 12 ft. I suppose, um, that was the total size of the body positive office with one other volunteer, Uh, and myself, a man called Jack. Dr. And I used to come in daily. Um and, um, just man [00:57:00] the phones and be there for anybody who wanted support or some assistance. And we did this for a while, and I thought, you know, the number of people living with HIV now is growing. Um, still, people are getting really sick. Um, and still, but we have medication, but the medication is not easy. And there's still a huge amount of discrimination and stigma around this thing. So this is where [00:57:30] I could invest my time in giving to the community. So I moved in. Shall we say more into a professional role within body positive. And I was very happy to, um, be the chairman for a few years. Um and then when I thought, well, I need some remuneration if I'm going to do this full time. So took on a position of chief executive officer and and asked the got, um, [00:58:00] a new board and new chairman, uh, so that we could separate governance from management and then, um, then work to build body positive to to where it is today. And, um uh, I am delighted with with the result, but again, it's, um, one of these things that needs to be managed very carefully because it's financial stability and infrastructure is is always precarious. We have a we finally have a [00:58:30] A contract with the Ministry of Health, but it's not significant. And, um uh, but it is sustainable and allows this organisation to operate and rise to meet the challenges that HIV presents to us these days. And I'm delighted to say that with the development that science has given us through antiretroviral medication, I'm expected now to live a fairly natural life and consider [00:59:00] other factors than co morbidities that might impact on my long term health. Besides, as well as the HIV, in fact, it's more those other comorbidities of diabetes or cardiovascular concerns that will probably take me away more so than anything to do with HIV. So I guess in in summing up, in a sense, I like to think I was here before AIDS, and and And I hope that I'm here pretty much towards the end of the terrible [00:59:30] threat that, um, one it presented with to us and, uh and and and challenged us as as a community. And certainly, um So I suppose from my perspective, and it's very much a personal reflection saw the amazing sacrifice that people gave with their lives around, uh, dying from AIDS. So now we're we're we have, shall we say, um, a scientific [01:00:00] answer for for medication to keep well and alive. But of course, our community has evolved and people don't come to body positive these days with just HIV. They come with HIV and other coinfections like hepatitis or TB Or, um, sad to say, a reflection on our community is with the addictions of alcohol and other recreational drugs and even legal drugs. Now, some people are addicted to and, um, more than that, of course, mental health issues is [01:00:30] a growing concern within our community. So I think if there's been any contribution I suppose, Um uh, in terms of the AIDS and, um, gay revolution that New Zealand has experienced, it's perhaps been able to provide a a better place for, um, people to come. And that was manifestly delivered to me with my own grand nephew, um, inviting me to his 21st [01:01:00] birthday party in which he said I'd meet his, um, his boyfriend and, uh, and that that was a delight. And and he didn't know any of the history of it. And I thought, Why should he? Um he should be able to just simply enjoy his life in a, uh in a in a, uh, discrimination free society. Because he happens to choose, uh, another human being for his lover, which doesn't quite fit the old historic Anglican. Or [01:01:30] I say, Anglicans. We've brought up strict Anglicans, uh, in in that model you were mentioning a while ago about, um, the whole idea of stigma and discrimination. And I'm wondering, can you talk to me about how you kind of broached the subject of, um, talking about your own diagnosis with with people in New Zealand and then looking forward over the next? You know, 25 years as to if stigma and discrimination [01:02:00] has changed any well, Yeah, I'm sorry to say I. I don't notice a great perceivable difference between what people are experiencing today as to what they did, uh, back then. And I guess the root cause of stigma and discrimination is ignorance and and fear. And you measure those two together and and of course, that's what's happened. Um, it is, uh it is still the very last hurdle in which we have to combat. Um, [01:02:30] and we've seen some wonderful examples in New Zealand, where to combat stigma around mental health. It's been some great television campaigns, but certainly in terms of, uh, HIV and AIDS, there's still a lot of stigma and discrimination. And whilst we deal with a lot of the overt, uh uh, discrimination at body positive in literal actions by employers or landlords or whatever, Um, there [01:03:00] is still an incredible internalised amount of stigma, uh, where people have always associated any sexual health issue as, um as a result of sleazy or inappropriate behaviour, or or less than equal to any other health condition of warranting attention or or support. Um, and and those attitudes we still find literally, um, relevant to the work we do today. Um, and they all [01:03:30] contribute to making people feel less equal or or or less, um, able to. And they erode people's self esteem, uh, and and their health. And, uh, I think that, uh, those are some of the issues we need to do today because our counselling services are very much called upon as as as those wonderful counsellors at the AIDS Foundation, uh, for people who are shall we say through, shall we say, years of of, [01:04:00] uh, being, um um lead to believe that they are are less than equal. And I felt, um, in my whole life, I guess, um, I've always had a sense of social justice around fair play and being, I guess, um, the victim. I suppose I don't like that term victim, but certainly being the recipient of some of that, um, unfavourable [01:04:30] behaviour because I just happen to be homosexual or happened to be living with HIV. Um I think is unfair and wasn't prepared to just simply lie down and let it roll over me. Hm. Then how did you How did you come to terms with actually being able to talk about your own diagnosis. Well, that was very hard. Um, because I thought again that it was only people who were irresponsible [01:05:00] and, uh, who, you know, brought this upon themselves that got this thing. And suddenly here I am, uh, living with it myself. And of course, I went through all the machinations of anger and emotion and, uh, unfairness, et cetera, And why me? Um and I can remember the very first thing when I decided that I'd wallowed himself pretty long enough, which must have been a day or two to [01:05:30] talk to somebody about it. And the only person I wanted to talk to was another person living with HIV. And that was the the guy. I think he was the current chairman of body positive at that time. And, um, Mark and I can remember talking to him and thinking this is the most powerful thing I've ever experienced. And of course, it's all about peer support and knowing that you're not alone and that there are others out there who simply, um, have walked this journey before [01:06:00] you and are happy to share their experience and their support and their wisdom with you so that you can discover you're not alone And that, um um there is more to it than what you perhaps or perceive you're facing Just at that moment. One thing we haven't touched on is, um, over that period of time from the late eighties, there have been well, actually, from the early eighties as well. There have been a number of ways that people have remembered, uh, people [01:06:30] you know either through the candle memorials or the circle of friends. Can you tell me about some of those things that you've been involved in? Yeah, Well, I must say, um, the the things that we have done, of course, is when we've seen people go, Um, the first you often knew about it was a black bordered advertisement type notice in the gay media. And, um and sometimes it was accompanied by a photograph, and and it sort of hit you, [01:07:00] Uh, very starkly because we still today do not associate death with young people. We associate it with, um, uh, old people, or at worst, uh, some catastrophic event, like a car crash, et cetera. But to see so many young people and people that you may have seen, you know, remembered in a dance party or a club or a bar or casually on the street or somebody you may have even had sex with, et cetera. So seeing those, um, [01:07:30] uh, people go was was horrible. And of course, we seem to be going to a funeral almost on a weekly basis, um, to say farewell to people, and, um, And then in the very early days, they decided that there needs to be some memorial type of service in which we can come together as a community, and and, um, again, the AIDS Foundation led this process with, um, the candlelight memorial. And I can remember being on the top. I think [01:08:00] it was Mount Eden and having people carry, um, torches and candles. And, uh, they were such powerful spiritual moments together, um, that they were quite amazing. And perhaps this is year has gone by now, but once a year, we do. In fact, on the third Sunday of every May we come together to, um, have candlelight memorial service. [01:08:30] Um, in every major city we can that find somebody to host it for us throughout New Zealand in fact, it's celebrated around the world. Um, and it's identified very much for those that we've lost to HIV and AIDS and in New Zealand here and now, in 2013, we've lost just under 700 people to to who have died with HIV or AIDS. Um, Worldwide over 30 million, of course. And, [01:09:00] um and I'm not ashamed at all to say that we, um we recognise those people, and, uh, and and they always bring out very deep personal feelings. Anyway, um, and I think of my sweet angels who have died from AIDS, uh, that were close to me and I. I would like to see, um, some tangible memorial recognition of that. And Jonathan Smith, Um, and his, um partner Kevin Baker, together with, [01:09:30] um Todd Andrews and his then partner, um started the circle of friends and I can remember being elected to the Western Bays Community Board, which is part of the Auckland City Council, and having a a deputation come in front of us asking us to allow this, um, small group of, uh, gay or gay friendly people established into council property in Western Springs. In fact, this circle [01:10:00] of friends, which was to one of those who'd gone been lost to HIV and AIDS and, of course, was absolutely delighted to be part of the approving body for that and to see to see that come about. And and today I'm in fact a, um one of the trustees with, uh Scott Johnston, Kevin Baker, and, uh, and Jonathan Smith for the Circle of Friends. And once a year or or twice, we engrave those names into [01:10:30] the circle of friends those who wish to be, um, remembered, and those who would like to have their name associated and support It doesn't necessarily have to be the, um, name of a dead person living people as well. My name's there, and I hope I'm still well and alive. Um, uh are still part of it. And, um uh, we have a a small service there to remember those whose names were engraving if they have passed on and to celebrate their lives [01:11:00] and to honour those who want to show their support. So it's it's it's really an important part, um, that we do that So candlelight memorial and the circle of friends are two very real tangible ways in which we can shall we say honour. And I think those will go for many, many years yet I, I really do. We also have World AIDS Day and, um that's the first of December every year. And in New Zealand we identify much with a street collection on [01:11:30] the Friday preceding World AIDS Day and that street collection, the proceeds all go towards, um, uh, the support of people living with HIV and AIDS. And currently those proceeds are split 50 50 between the New Zealand AIDS Foundation and body positive. And it is a joint venture, the street collection, one in which we can, shall we say, come together to raise as much as we can to use that money in a way that will support those people living with HIV [01:12:00] in areas that they need. The support reflecting back. Are there people in New Zealand or maybe not in New Zealand? But are there people that you would like to pay tribute to, as as pioneers in this? Absolutely. I would like to acknowledge Kate Leslie, um, the first chairperson of the AIDS Foundation. I'd like to acknowledge her to, um uh and her board members, my good friend Helen Ivory, of course, [01:12:30] and and, um, and other members of the board at the time. But then also those who worked very much at the coal face, Uh, Ray Taylor, an amazing character who's still very much involved in contributing in his way. Tony Hughes, who's now a full time professional science officer at the AIDS Foundation. Uh, are the two people I most knew who were identified with the AIDS Foundation and their voluntary capacity in the first stages on that But [01:13:00] so many who have come and gone, um, who've made a contribution? Um, uh, in in any which way that they could, um, they just are too many to to remember personally or individually, um, in that regard, but, yeah, some amazing people. Um, and I've been very, very, very privileged to, um, be blessed with with some of their memories. What do you think will happen [01:13:30] with with HIV and AIDS in the future? Where do you think it will go? I hope it goes the same way that, um uh, that we've dealt with, say, syphilis or or cancer in that, uh, I hope that we further develop great treatments and ultimately vaccines and cures for this thing, Um, and that it will just simply become another another health hazard that we need to be conscious [01:14:00] and aware of and know how to avoid but certainly know that when we do have it, that we can treat it and ultimately cure it. Um, but I think that the education around, um, HIV and AIDS still needs to be maintained, as it will need to be maintained around any other, uh, health issue. Hepatitis is a growing concern. Anal cancer for gay positive men is another frightening prospect. [01:14:30] So seeing the normalisation of it and seeing it being dealt for what it is is just another health, a human health issue to be dealt with and that, uh, that's a bad enough or enough to cope with without the hysteria of discrimination and stigma that, um, I hope will ultimately be dealt with and move away from it.
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