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I was a late starter. Uh, and I came out really about 1980 in my very early thirties, Um, And at that stage, well, it was still illegal to be gay. It was still, um, a criminal offence to have homosexual relationships. Uh, and so you couldn't [00:00:30] be openly gay and expect to have a reasonable career, Uh, in a very close. Um, there was, um a certain amount of sexual life in the bogs. There were saunas. Uh, there were people who lived in couple relationships. There were a couple of clubs, right. [00:01:00] There was the Dorian Society. Um, and then Victoria Club Stand off. It was, um yeah, very, very private thing to be gay. And there was a in a minute of gay bashing was a scary thing to be. I haven't heard of some of the when you say bogs. So we're talking about public toilets. [00:01:30] What were the public toilets in Wellington that were being used at the time? Well, almost any public toilet was potentially a place where you could meet someone for sexual activity. Um, the public toilets outside. What was then the library? Uh, was one major, um, meeting place for sex, but for many others. And there were two. The two clubs that you mentioned, The Dorian [00:02:00] in the Victoria. What were the differences between those two? Well, the Dorian had been going on much longer. Um, and was, uh, general. It became more a party club, uh, open, particularly on Friday and Saturday nights. Uh, you had to belong to it. And you paid so much to go in. I can't remember [00:02:30] what it was. A very reasonable price to go in. And then you could drink as much as you like when you got in there, Um, the Victoria Club was a bit more select. Um, and it had premises in Oriental Bay, Uh, and, uh, bit more refined. Um, but it was overlapping membership. And so were you a member of both? [00:03:00] Yes. Yes, eventually. Um, but as I say, I think I think the Victoria Club probably didn't start until, say, 1982 or something like that. And you were saying that you were a bit of a late bloomer. So what was What was life like before? Kind of coming out for you? Well, I was married. Um, I didn't even recognise myself as gay until, um, I would say 28 or something. Um, I guess [00:03:30] that it was the possibility of being gay was so scary that I I managed to hide, hide from it completely, even for myself. I didn't have a fantasy life at all, and we use the word gay. But back then what? What were the words that were being used? Homosexual. I suppose gay came to be used in the 19 seventies by certainly by the middle to late [00:04:00] 19 seventies, Gay was used. Yeah. Can you tell me your kind of coming out process? Um, yes, I. I was. I was in New York City and I I had I had been very, very thoroughly involved in politics, left wing politics a A and was [00:04:30] working full time on left wing politics. And I developed a dispute with the organisation I was working for and I was suspended from political activity, wasn't allowed to do the only thing which I enjoyed doing and which I suppose I was hiding in. And in that context, I had a lot of time [00:05:00] to think. I've heard of clergymen who have gone through the same process, actually had a dispute with the church hierarchy and spilling their wheels have started to become aware of their gainers or their gainers have become more pressing. Um, but, um, I had a job dealer working for a rich book dealer, and he [00:05:30] sent me to a another, more downmarket book dealer to look at what they had. See if there were things he should look at And a young man who worked for this book dealer pressed his leg against mine. And so suddenly I realised that I was gay just like that, and I was out of out of that. I was so terrified. I was out of that bookshop. [00:06:00] Uh, very, very, very, very quickly Did what had to be done and ran. Returned an hour later. Yeah, and, uh, yes, uh, had a a nice liaison with the young man. And and that's, um yeah, that's how I discovered by Gay. And, [00:06:30] um, started going to the Saint Mark's baths, which was a sauna, really? A big sauna in New York City. This would have been 1979. Uh, it it was the height of the excitement of being gay just before AIDS was hitting [00:07:00] after the the development, the post stone wall development and things were really buzzing. It was the time to be gay. Uh, it was really something pretty magnificent and I I think that that is actually where the first signals of of of [00:07:30] aids were felt because someone gave me a card saying free checkups and I went for this free checkup, and I said, And would you please additionally give some extra blood for some tests we're doing? There's something going on, and we don't know what it is, but we'd like to [00:08:00] do some study of gay men's blood and I. I don't know I I but I suspect that this was a response to early signs of Of HIV, uh, in New York. And so that was 1979. Um, So I came back to New Zealand in 1980 forgot about it entirely, [00:08:30] And, um, I think it must have been in 1982. I'm not sure of the date. It could have been 1983. There was a group of young younger people coming out at the university who were kind of friends of mine. I was AAA, um I was [00:09:00] tutoring in politics And so I was the oldest of this. This group of perhaps eight guys and some of them came to see me and said, Look, we're reading the stuff from overseas about this peculiar disease among gay people, and I'm full of denial and [00:09:30] look at some homophobic kind of stuff. You know, I shouldn't worry about it too much, and they persisted and found articles and made me read them. And one of them got this fellow John Clements from the Ministry of Health to come up and talk to the group of us on the campus and insisted that I should [00:10:00] share this meeting. There was probably eight or nine of us in the in this little room, and John Clements actually couldn't tell us anything. Um, but he said, Yeah, there's something funny going on, Um, and we don't know anything about it. Perhaps it's perhaps it's because the body doesn't like semen in your anus. Or perhaps it's, [00:10:30] um, some infectious agent, but we can't see anything. You know, we just don't know, Um, and that was the beginning, actually, of quite a long relationship with John Clements, who became the Ministry of Health's expert on on HIV and eventually went to the World Health Organisation. Can I ask, um, back in those early days? So we're talking about 82 [00:11:00] 83. How quickly did news travel say, from the US to here? So when people are coming to you saying I've seen this article, how quickly did that news come? Well, by air mail? Um, a week, Two weeks? You know, there were the advocate. Um, New York native was, uh, a magazine, which carried a lot of the stuff. Um, [00:11:30] And it would get here, you know, fairly quickly. And and people who who were interested would would, um, get it, you know, within less than a month. Anyway. And what was the kind of tone of those articles concerned? Uh, some of it was a little hysterical. Some of it was [00:12:00] reflecting similar values to mine. This is just a hysterical, you know, thing. The heterosexual are trying to scare us out of our, uh, and so there's this debate going on. Um, and I was I was certainly at the and I think the debate here was the same as the debate everywhere else. Really? Um, and I was at the sceptical end of the spectrum and this [00:12:30] and tried to bury my head in the sand. Um, Phil Parkinson didn't let me bury my head in the sand because he he's he read everything very, very carefully and would bring it to me and photocopy these things out and and say, Look, you've got a responsibility to discuss this at the Wellington Gay switchboard, Uh, which is the predecessor [00:13:00] of the Wellington Gay welfare group was the main welfare group in the organ. In, in, in, in Wellington. They tell me exactly what I ought to do, and he was usually right with the bugger. Um and, um so I would, you know, in a semi obedient way, do what I was told. So give me a wee bit of background on on Phil. [00:13:30] Phil was also late bloomer about the same age and came out at about the same time. And he was on the International Committee which determines the scientific name for the various species of algae. Um, he's he's some sort of Renaissance man, you know, He he he he's sort of very [00:14:00] knowledgeable and all sorts of disparate kinds of things. Uh and, um, very clever and and not and not very good socially, but makes up for that by, um, extremely, um, well informed and good at [00:14:30] at, um, compiling and distributing information. He would do that to me, and, uh, he eventually introduced me to Bruce Burnett. I want to get on to Bruce Bennett, uh, a wee bit later on, and we can come back on. But I just would like to know, in terms of that small group meeting up at the university, what was so so they were obviously [00:15:00] interested in what this new thing was. What about the wider gay society? How how were they interested? Not at this stage. No, it's not as far as I know. Um, on the whole, it was, um, I. I look, there might have been some, but I think it was pretty, pretty small group now that that group [00:15:30] at university overlapped with the gay switchboard. And there was some talk about the gay switchboard C circles and gay switchboard is is really important in in everything that happens for the next five years or so. Um, it provides the personnel for the aid support network in Wellington at first, and and also for law reform, too. [00:16:00] Um, so it it's it plays an important role. Where did the gay switchboard come from? It came out of gay liberation. Really? In the late seventies. Like, I mean, probably 78. Something like that. I joined it in about 81. And what was its main purpose? Well, I ran a telephone, um, Council of peer [00:16:30] support service. Really? Um, and that, and And it It also helped run a community centre and did all sorts of other things from time to time as necessary. Were there other, um, kind of peer support groups for LGBT at that time? Oh, there was a small group [00:17:00] with the unfortunate name Gay aid. Um, which might have been two people, um, which wanted to join together with switchboard, But, uh, there was some disagreements on ethical principles, but that's the only the only other one. And how big was the gas switchboard? How many volunteers [00:17:30] at that time? Probably 12 or 14. Mhm. You know, it grew slowly over time. What about internally yourself? I mean, did you ever feel conflicted about being gay or were you once you had that moment in New York that was a I was clear that I was gay. Um, it wasn't. And it wasn't easy to [00:18:00] to make the adjustments to my life as a gay man. I was married, and I didn't I didn't My wife had to adjust to this, and it was a complicated, um, and band, which is not completed. Um, I personally will be you. May [00:18:30] you you can't undo something like a a marriage if if you still love someone, you know, But, um I I was clear that I was gay. There was no doubt about it. For me. Yeah. Then were you openly out? Well, that's it. No, not really. Um, I mean, I was I wasn't [00:19:00] secretive about it, particularly. But it wasn't till, um, homosexual law reform that I had to had to be out. Really? Um, and it was sort of funny situation where we were looking around for someone to front a television appearance for I think the cardinal had made a statement against homosexual law reform, and we needed someone to [00:19:30] get on television to disagree with him. And we looked around and pointed at me and said, You've got two bills, and that's how my family or some parts of my family found out I was gay was on on television, which, uh, it's a very efficient way to get everyone to. You know, you don't have to go around telling people one by one. They just tell them all at once by television. Makes it easier. How did that go down? Oh, not bad. On [00:20:00] the whole, in those early eighties, what was or was there, uh, things like safe sex. I mean, was that was that happening where people using condoms were people didn't use condoms? As far as I know, Before AIDS, before we realised there was an infectious agent, Um, we didn't know what it was, [00:20:30] but we eventually worked out that there must be an infectious agent and, um, started saying, Look, you've got to use condoms and, um, published a leaflet to that effect. Um, in Wellington, we just I think we if I remember rightly or, um, photocopied it or something, like they're very primitive. Anyway, I can't remember exactly how we did it and put [00:21:00] it out at the sauna. And, uh, when there was a big news thing about someone arriving in Wellington, the person we called Gary the first, um, And there was sort of a little bit of hysteria about or actually a big bit of hysteria about in the newspaper. We tried to put out a We put out a reassuring leaflet and one of the places we distributed. It was, uh, at, uh, in in [00:21:30] the the sauna. Um, and use that as an opportunity to say you use condoms. Now, I've seen a video clip. Um, from July 1985 where they're saying it's the first local case in Wellington and there are shots of a leaflet being handed out to gay people. Is that the same? Probably. I can't be sure. Um, what you saw. Uh, but [00:22:00] that sounds like the right time slot. So July 1985. So AIDS would have been known about for what, three or four years? Well, it was known about in in stages, so something was known about, but it wasn't known as aids. Um, and then, even when it was known about it, wasn't known to be caused by an infectious agent. [00:22:30] Um, so, you know, the the the knowledge, even when it was known about, was very, very limited at first. But if I'm not mistaken, the first tests were available in New Zealand in, I think, 1984. Um, and I had one of the the first tests because it seemed the right thing to do. You know, um, what [00:23:00] was that like, considering that 1984 there was no treatment as such was there? Um, II I was a bit scared. Yeah, I didn't feel a great danger. Probably because I have great powers of denial. Um, I probably should have. I mean, I've been at if I think about it at huge danger playing around in New York in 1979. [00:23:30] Uh, if anyone ought to have got the virus, it was me. Um, I've been very, very lucky. Can you recall what was in that, uh, that letter or that that that kind of circular that was printed? No, I can't. I guess it's available in the archive. But what can you recall the the tone? Was it? I mean, was it well, it was attempting to be reassuring and [00:24:00] to say, Look, be safe and you'll be safe. Um, use condoms. You can't get AIDS except by unsafe sex that it's not catchable off door handles. Um, don't worry. Be safe. It'll be OK. It must be one [00:24:30] thing to kind of reassure, say, like the gay community. But another thing, then to take that message to the wider community, how how are they reacting? Oh, there's a huge amount of hysteria, and it was very difficult not to be flippant sometimes. I. I remember some argument in the newspaper about what happened. If, um, you know, someone came across someone in the street and how [00:25:00] would they know if they had a a or someone was collapsed in the street and so on? I think I made a statement that I But as long as you weren't intending to have sex with someone you picked up on the street, I think it would be OK. Probably. What about within the gay community itself? I mean, was there, um you know, tension of people being frightened or or complacency how, How, How [00:25:30] how the the range of emotions. You know, um, when Gary the first arrived, we got this call, and, um, I took him to see John Miller at his home. There was already news articles about him. So on the minute the medical officer of Health had rung the switchboard, [00:26:00] wanting to make sure that he was being looked after properly. And they were worried that he was a drug addict and mentally unbalanced. And, you know, we had They thought he was sex crazed. And so we we never having met him, we had to calm them down Then. Then he then we met him and took him round to John Miller [00:26:30] had a long talk with him there and made sure that there was a relationship between them that was going to work. And, of course, he was only too happy because he'd found a good doctor who was going to look after him. And that made everyone happy because the medical officer of health knew that he was in the hands of a doctor and that there was a network of support around him and so on. [00:27:00] Um, John Miller rang me up and said, Look in, you're going to laugh, Bill, this is really ridiculous. But after you'd taken Gary, um, I boiled the cup and saucer that he used and [00:27:30] I. I think that's that's emblematic of the of the general social fear that permeated the whole of society, including gay society. And John knew that it was stupid, but the fear was so great and so irrational that people did irrational things. And, [00:28:00] um I mean, this fellow Gary, his family were homophobic anyway, but he was close to a brother, but the brother wouldn't let him anywhere near his Children. And, um, it was the whole thing was a disaster. And he suicide [00:28:30] within six weeks. And that was was a terrible, ghastly situation. Everyone was completely devastated. And, you know, I think we counted it as a as a, um, complete failure from the point of view of doing our job, which we saw as supporting people, [00:29:00] you know? But, um, was there, like, 100% support from people in the gay switch board or because I can imagine that some people would go the other way and kind of ostracise? I don't think there's anyone in the gay switchboard who would have had that position at all. No. Um, I don't [00:29:30] think they would have got away with it. If they did, they would have just sort of moved on. Um, I don't don't say there would have been a fight about it or anything like that, they just would have felt out of place. I'm sure that there was a level of prejudice in some parts of the gay community and come coming out in odd ways. So, you know, rumours [00:30:00] that someone might have HIV or aids or that sort of thing. Sometimes you briefly mentioned before Bruce Burnett. Can you tell me a bit about him? Hm? He he was a brilliant, charming guy, highly educated social worker who had been [00:30:30] to UCL a studied. And I and, um had also got involved in the shanty project, uh, which has a particular take on caring for people with HIV. And he's also he also had a He wasn't a political [00:31:00] person by nature, but he he developed a good political instinct, and, um, he he he would he could he he could see it. I see the importance of politics and could see, uh, how to find political people and use them. And, um, you know, he Yeah, he he got me onto the political side of things. [00:31:30] He got people motivated. He was an inspiring sort of fellow kind of charisma, so he he only lived two years in New Zealand. But, uh, in that time he managed to get a job with the that he had had to be made especially for him with the Ministry of Health. And, [00:32:00] um, he put together this network with strong branches or whatever they called them in in Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch and and outlying bits in Hamilton and Dude And I think, and probably other places, um, and [00:32:30] ran these workshops using videos and all the ordinary techniques of listening and empathise and mostly training people to to be buddies of people with HIV, but also [00:33:00] making people think about it all, um, and educating people a bit in safe sex or safe for six and building this aid support network as a and then we saw this as a purely voluntary thing, which would be [00:33:30] ancillary to the main publicity work, which would be done by the ministry, which we saw sort of the way things were done. But then the ministry just didn't seem to want to do anything. This is the Ministry of Health. So we we, um, thought about this and argued about this. So must [00:34:00] have been Christmas 84 94 94 84 Christmas 84 that I spent with Bruce in Auckland, and we I talked a little bit with ministry officials, and someone had said, You know, it's too much of a hot potato [00:34:30] for the ministry and there's lots of things in the New Zealand health system which are done by independent charities. Think of Plunkett and I was discussing this with Bruce, and I said, We've got to We've got to have a something like that. And so we set up the AIDS Support [00:35:00] Network Trust. We made some telephone calls and broke into John Clements Christmas holidays to see if this is like to like me to fly. And he said he thought it would. And we made a list of potential trustees. One of them was, um what's his name? Paul, [00:35:30] who became governor general. Oh, Reeves. Yes. So he was going to be a trustee, and he accepted. And then he had to say, Look, I've got to turn you turn you down. I'm very sorry. Um, we didn't know why. And then I found out why. Um, excellent. Actually, he's much more valuable to us as Governor [00:36:00] General. And he was as trustee. We set up this trust in early 1985 but Bruce didn't live much longer. He died, I think, in May, May 1985. And we changed the name to AIDS AIDS Foundation. Mhm. I just want to go back on a on a couple of things [00:36:30] when you say that the Ministry of Health thought it was a bit of a, uh, hot potato in terms of, uh, prevention messages coming directly from the Ministry of Health. Why do you think that was? There's several things we had to tell gay men how to have sex. And they're quite right that gay men don't want to be told how to have sex by the ministry of anything, um, [00:37:00] or by streets or anything else that that's part of it. But also, I think they did actually bring out one or two ads, and they really weren't great ads. There was one about you trying to sell condoms and its about parachutes, skydiving without a parachute. And I mean, it was [00:37:30] a little difficult to work out. What, what? What you were supposed to do. Um, so to get something through the ministry, the the process of a ministry that was going to work would be difficult. So, er yeah, they were right, they couldn't do [00:38:00] it. And, um, it was it was necessary to do it this way. And we we when we saw that it was possible, Bruce, I said, Right, we better go to the minister now And we hadn't spoken. We hadn't. We hadn't thought at this level of politics. We've been dealing with bureaucrats before that, but now is the time [00:38:30] to go and see better. And so Bruce and I go and knock on the door. Will we bring up and make an appointment and so on? And Bassett says, I don't think aids will be a real problem. I don't think you need to worry very much, and you could see his officials sort of fidgeting. And, uh, he says, I think it's only [00:39:00] some gay men who have some particular kinds of practises who are likely to get this disease. And Bruce nearly exploded at that point, and I I had to say no. Now, Bruce, it'll be OK and I said, No, I think you should talk to your officials because actually, it's something which is spreading among a wide [00:39:30] section of the gay community, and it's going to be a very, very real problem. So we're asking for $200,000 and I think they gave us the law, or at least half of them. Um, much more than we expected to start off. And that was only a starter. They they they were. They gave us a very, you know, I think they gave us huge budget very quickly [00:40:00] to to deal with the starting up of this thing. And that was Michael Bassett. Yeah. Yeah. So can you recall your first meeting with Bruce Burnett? Yes. Uh, it was in my shop. I had a little bookshop that the stage was in Far Street, which is now part of Victoria Street Little book shop. And, um, Phil brought him in when he'd arrived. [00:40:30] Uh, and, um, he was going to be giving a a lecture. And he we're going to be in the library lecture of the place, which doesn't exist any longer. Um, we've arranged to pick up a video recorder or some projector or something from me. And that's when I first met him. And we chatted [00:41:00] for a few minutes what? We talked on the phone before. And so and that would have probably been in or say August 84. So was this one of, um, Bruce's aides travelling road things? So he went, Did he go up and down the country? He must have visited Wellington two or three times. [00:41:30] Yeah. So those roadshow presentations, who were they aimed at? Well, various people, Um, the general public, the AIDS com community, the gay community, and people who were volunteers. So there's three different categories. Um, we had very early on [00:42:00] a an all day workshop in Turnbull house. I've got some photographs of it somewhere. Um, that was a a workshop, training people to be buddies, um, and then I, I think in the same trip, there was this public talk in the what was called the Library Lecture Theatre in [00:42:30] the old library building, and that it was probably a different trip where he talked in the Dorian Society aimed at anyone in the gay community who is interested. And how were those talks received, or anyone who was there was really interested. Um, no one came who was going to be [00:43:00] hostile at all. He was a good speaker. Um, he was engaging. He was warm speaker. Now, I don't think we've actually put this on the recording here, so I might just say that my understanding, the the narrative that that I know is that that Bruce was in San Francisco, um was feeling ill and around about 83 came back to New Zealand and then started doing kind of AIDS [00:43:30] education and and, um, support. Is that kind of your understanding? I'm not sure if he was in San Francisco or Los Angeles. I'm just I don't don't know that he had a lot of his education in Los Angeles prior to him coming back and and and doing that kind of, um, AIDS education Were you were saying that the that the switchboard was doing stuff around AIDS? Were was [00:44:00] anybody else doing either support or education or not that I know of in Wellington? Well, not that I know of at all. And how did the say that the gay switchboard fit into the aid support network? Did it kind of? It was the same people doing some of the stuff. Yeah. I mean, not all switchboards joined the aid support network, but most did. Um, [00:44:30] And, uh, increasingly, people who weren't switch borders, uh, would join the aid support network, too. Um, the switchboard was gay in only, for example, whereas, um, women, lesbians and and, um, heterosexual women, the heterosexual women [00:45:00] tended to be but weren't exclusively nurses or counsellors. Um, but that's an exaggeration. And, um uh, there was some church people, so So So, yeah, it it it became broader over time. And you briefly mentioned, um, the shanty project. And my understanding is that the aid support network was based [00:45:30] on the principles of the shanty project. What were those principles? Well, it probably was. And a lot of the resources, the films, the the the videos were shanty things, but it was never It was never explicit that the Aid Support Network had to follow the principles of the shanty project, and I never bothered to find out what the principles of the shanty project were. [00:46:00] Um, I gathered that they were in some way inspired by some sort of Eastern religious things, which I instinctually thought I probably wouldn't be very interested in. Um, but it didn't seem to matter very much. It was a practical thing as far as I was concerned. Can you describe some of the workshops that the the network undertook? Sure, [00:46:30] there would often be a video which would perhaps simply show a buddy and someone with AIDS doing some things together, uh, and shows some typical life situations of, say, shopping or making [00:47:00] a meal or whatever. And either being too tired to do it or having some energy, um, of wanting to have some fun. Um, and they're just modelling how you support someone, Uh, and perhaps how you face how you talk about feeling [00:47:30] processing incidents of prejudice that are experienced or, um, unpleasant things which happen. Um, that might be typical for someone, uh, where they had some bad news that you received medically or or whatever. Um, so it might. It might start off with a bit of video like that, [00:48:00] and in fact, there might be several such bits of video like that through a day's workshop. And Bruce might talk about some of his experiences, um, with people that he had worked with and perhaps, um, some experiences in New Zealand to [00:48:30] to make it more concrete and real, and then they'd often be. Or there'd always be some role plays where people would role play and there'd be fish ball role plays where people would role play. Two people would role play something, a conversation in front of everyone. Um, [00:49:00] Bruce would be the buddy first perhaps, uh, or someone more experienced would And, um then some other people would. And then everyone would be in small groups with perhaps, um, an observer and two people doing the role play. And can you describe, [00:49:30] um, the atmosphere in those workshops? It could be quite emotional because a lot of us knew each other fairly well, and we were role playing our impending demise. And that was quite heavy. Sometimes. [00:50:00] Yeah, you know, you you you you're sitting next talking to a buddy about the fact he's going to die in the next. You know, a few weeks, a few months, men, people with AIDS died fairly quickly on the whole, um so it it it could be quite heavy and quite scary in that you were facing up to [00:50:30] the fact that we were in the midst of an epidemic which seemed to be out of control. And you could be safe personally, but your community wasn't safe. So in these workshops was Bruce open about his own health issues? He was open that [00:51:00] he had an AIDS related condition. Um, he wasn't necessarily open about how seriously he ill he was all the time. One of the things that's always, um, you know, I'm just so in admiration of Bruce about is being kind of out there in the mainstream media, not only talking about aids, um, but also talking about his homosexuality, [00:51:30] And I kind of wonder, do you have any thoughts on? Like, where that kind of Where does that energy come from? I. I don't want to, um I don't want to belittle him in any way, but, um, he he didn't think he had long to live. He didn't have much to lose. Um, he had a passion to do something about this and to change this, [00:52:00] Uh, it it the sense in which this was his reason for living. And I think that in some ways life was very hard for him. But mm, for doing all this made it worthwhile. So in Wellington, who were the the the main people involved with the aid support network. Well, when David [00:52:30] Harper was one, he became chair immediately after me. Um, David Kevin Green. Then later on Lindsay Wright. Bill Edington Um Neil Thornton was very important. Paul [00:53:00] McKay, Rob Blake, Jerome Jerome bleeds. And you also mentioned Phil Parkinson, Phil Parkinson years. Although I don't know that he did, he did. He did the workshops and things and then, um, later on, Jane Henson and no [00:53:30] other names have gone the the name Aid Support Network. I'm wondering, how much of a network was it say between centres say, like Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch Or were they quite individual groups of people? Well, we had meetings, national meetings and communication between the centres Um sense of democracy of a [00:54:00] Did you sense there was a different kind of vibe between the different centres? Not particularly. There wasn't a sense of decisions being made in a particular place because there were no decisions to make. You know, there wasn't a it was just just work and and education. It wasn't any decisions were what should go on the workshop, which we were happy for Bruce to decide [00:54:30] how the how the how the workshops were put together. It wasn't It wasn't a bureaucracy. It wasn't a It wasn't a It wasn't an organisation, Really. It was a a collaboration. Uh, it it it it it it didn't have a budget. Um, so there was no squabbling over resources? Um, there weren't any. [00:55:00] So So do you think that changed Possibly when it moved into the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, where you did have a budget? Slowly. Yeah. Um, I think inevitably, as you as you grow as you become more dependent on government as you have to fulfil criteria laid down in contracts, [00:55:30] Um, yeah. As you have staff that are controlled from a central point, things change. Um, we had branches, we had branch meetings, we had branch chairs and we would [00:56:00] decide on who was going to look after someone. And, you know, it wasn't It wasn't a difficult. It wasn't as if there was any power over or anything. It was, but it was. It was self organisation. Um, and as you as you develop a a staff, there's no self organisation. [00:56:30] It's it's it's a top down organisation, and it's a very different kind of field. You no longer need a local committee and so there's no sense of power over the organisation and so there's no sense of community ownership of the organisation and I think that's a big problem for an organisation like the AIDS Foundation. Because [00:57:00] hm, you need community feeling of ownership of the organisation if the organisation is going to be listened to and being listened to is the most important thing that the organisation has. So I don't think people listen to the organisation anymore because they don't feel they own it. [00:57:30] Um, it's become simply an arm of the ministry, and I think that that's difficult. Speaking of of listening to messages, I'm wondering when it was the Aid Support network, How did you get the message out? Was it through things like radio print? How did how did you get the message out? Well, a whole lot of different ways. Um [00:58:00] A and a lot of it was leaflets that were handed out at the clubs and the saunas. Um, there were also gatherings. Um, people had gatherings in their home. Um, where, you know, people talk safe sex [00:58:30] for a while. Probably only six months. There were three or four of these a week. Um, if I remember rightly, I'm really interested in the kind of language and imagery that was used in those early kind of prevention and the education messages. And I'm just wondering, can you talk a wee bit about, um, that kind of language that was being used to target specific groups? [00:59:00] I don't think we were very sophisticated. And I don't think that we thought of targeting specific groups. I think that we, uh, were careful not to use fear tactics. Um, I think that we Yeah, said, look, you can be safe, that it's not [00:59:30] easy to catch this virus except with anal sex without a condom. Um, we might have even gone further than we ought to in saying that everything else is safe. Um, I don't think we lost too many points that way or too many lives, but it seems to be such a contrast. Um, for instance, the the parachute safe sex ad or condo. Actually, [01:00:00] it is, um, we you know, it's there's nothing sexualized or anything, you know, it's like people jumping out of a plane. Um, compared to some of the leaflets that I've seen which are pretty blunt in terms of their messaging. Yeah, we we we we weren't afraid to be sexual. I knew it was about six. And how did the Ministry of Health respond to the to that? I think they were only too pleased for us to do it as [01:00:30] long as they didn't have to. Um I mean, they they're not stupid. They they just don't want to have to answer to a minister for that sort of thing. They know that That's how you stop HIV. And the minister wants these things too, because he doesn't want a bill for HIV. He just doesn't want newspapers. And and and so So [01:01:00] they just want to distance themselves from their religious nutters and and, um, other people who might kind of criticise them for being responsible for this stuff. What about the coverage in in Rainbow Media? So I'm thinking of things like, say, the lesbian community programme on radio or think triangle of the magazine. I don't read the lesbian press, so I can't, uh uh, comment. Pink was [01:01:30] pretty damn good. Um, Out magazine was, um, sometimes better than others. Um, and, uh, I had some funny ideas at one stage and uh, we had some difficulties in terms of getting condoms into their saunas at one stage because they were scared that by having condoms in their saunas that [01:02:00] this would be an admission that gay sex passed on HIV and would cause them to be closed down. And we had to actually be quite heavy with them over that and say, Look, if you don't have them, you will have to be closed down. We did that in the nicest possible way. Otherwise, it would have been [01:02:30] disastrous to close them down. Actually, we they the saunas, were in some ways the most important site of safe sex education. Um, but, um, it it would have been easy for them not to be if we'd gone along with what the proprietor of the Empire would have liked running alongside, Um, the emergence of AIDS in New [01:03:00] Zealand was the homosexual law reform in what kind of came to a head in 85 86? How did AIDS affect the homosexual law reform campaign? Well, quite directly. Um, some time in 90 85 um, there was a television, um, [01:03:30] documentary, not documentary panel discussion on on AIDS, which I represented the AIDS foundation in because, uh, Bruce was sick. And, um, the minister of health was there. I think he had to phone in or something. And we were all in this panel. [01:04:00] The ministerial bureaucrats and doctors and things like that absolutely agreed that condoms freely available condoms and, um, homosexual law reform were absolutely essential for preventing the spread of HIV. And that was very, [01:04:30] very clear and was a perfect example of the way in which the two things fitted together. The interesting thing is that someone then rang in with a question saying, But what about people who inject themselves with drugs? And I said, Well, [01:05:00] the same principles apply. We've got to make needles available to everyone without fear of prosecution. And Michael Bassett, the minister. It sort of exploded. So I don't think that's all. No, no, that's not possible. Well, you've got to decide, don't you? Whether you want to be, uh, responsible for the spread of AIDS or its prevention, you better talk to your officials again, haven't you? I'm absolutely [01:05:30] terrified. I've never done anything like this before On television. Um, and very shortly afterwards, we had the needle exchange system. So I mean, the the point. The point is that there is a very clear relationship between [01:06:00] human rights and public health that you've got to be able to discuss your health status freely and have a certain amount of capacity to have self esteem about it in order to be able to to address health issues. So, [01:06:30] um, I think I think that AIDS was actually really very, very important, uh, in getting homosexual law reform through and the debate around homosexual law reform was also really important in educating people about HIV and the need for condoms. [01:07:00] Aid was also used by the opponents of homosexual law reform. Can you tell me a wee bit about that? And and what? What they were trying to do? Oh, yeah. Um, gay plus gay equals aids is one of the slogans, and they're trying to simply identify gaze as the carriers of a deadly disease which would infect the whole world. [01:07:30] But the science was the knowledge, the the the the facts were against them. Really? Um, in the, uh, it it affects people who have sex with gays. But if you don't have sex with someone, who's got carries it, then you're safe. So did you ever feel that, um, aids could derail law reform? I was never confident [01:08:00] that, um, that law reform would go through. Um, and there were ways in which AIDS could be extremely dangerous. Um, for example, uh, some crazy people on our side suggested we should threaten to to pass on [01:08:30] HIV to straits if it didn't go through. And that was not a very intelligent kind of strategic thought. Uh, and that could have been if that had got out too much and did get out a little bit. Um, that could have but in the normal course of events, uh, AIDS was not likely to do us any damage. Do you have any comments [01:09:00] on people like, say, the MP Norman Jones, who kind of tied AIDS and homosexuality together? I think Norman Jones was one of the people who did more good for our cause than anyone else he was. I mean, he's a he's quite a nice guy, um, with a a warped worldview. [01:09:30] But he was so, so crazy that he kept the debate going usefully, and he was rather obviously wrong. I think he did this more good than her thinking of, um, stigma [01:10:00] and discrimination. And I'm wondering, you know, was did you see yourself? Stigma and discrimination say, amongst health professionals around AIDS in the eighties. OK, Yeah. The hospice wouldn't take people with AIDS for a long time. The Wellington hospital for a long time [01:10:30] insisted that people with HIV use plastic knives and forks, but no one else all sorts of nonsense. Um, and of course, we make a noise. And often the nurse that we'd be talking to would have been there and saying rude things to and saying This is just not on [01:11:00] would have been the one who'd been arguing with her seniors on our side, taking the flag, which wasn't very fair. But, um, no, There's some bad stuff. I remember seeing, uh, a a TV news item about Tom McLean in Wellington Hospital and about how his friends had to all gown up every time they saw him. Um, did you have much to do with Tom? [01:11:30] Yeah, I knew Tom Quite well. Um, I don't remember gowning up for him. I might just have refused. I can't remember. I can't remember gowing up for anyone. I think the the the new story was about, um, yes, his his people, coming to visit him had to, you know, wear masks and gloves. And, um and then when he was able to go home, [01:12:00] um, there was none of that required. And he was thinking, you know, what is this? But he was also quite public, wasn't he? I mean, he was, you know, as he was dying, he was he was being interviewed for TV. No, he he he was, uh, an amazing fellow. He, uh, funny little chap, Scotsman who, uh, did a lot of work for homosexual law reform and, uh, [01:12:30] then had a test and found out he was positive, wrote that book and really wanted to see it published. It was published the week before he died. Um, Helen Clark did the honour that she was minister of health at the time she launched the vote, and, uh, he he lasted another week. [01:13:00] And actually, there was a It was, I think, over Easter he died. And, uh, there was a gay conference on, so we and it had a big support team, But everyone was tired, so it was actually my mother who was with him when he died? Um just quietly slipped away at night. What was the title of that book? [01:13:30] If I should die Seemed an interesting title. It's rather likely we all will. Thinking of, um, ways that we remember people. Um, AIDS has brought a number of things like, um the the the names project, the AIDS memorial quilt and also things like candlelight. Were you involved in either of those two things? No. Just as a someone [01:14:00] who went along with them. And can you describe what they were like in the late eighties? Or Richard Ben organised the first candle light one. And that was amazing because he's he's he made these huge beacons, uh, with them on big polls with them [01:14:30] kerosene soaked beacons. And I think the first one was at Parliament and the second was around Frank Kitts Park. If I remember rightly and they were, they were big and spectacular and bold and very, very moving, I found not mistaken is then graft host [01:15:00] spoke at the second one. I think they were at night. Um and there's something about fire and and very, very, very primal. Can you describe what It was like in the late eighties and early nineties, where there was such kind of sickness and death. Because, of course, all the anti. [01:15:30] You know, the antiviral drugs haven't kind of come in and they came in in the mid nineties. So So what was it like for you in the late eighties? Yeah, I wrote a list. Um, of the people I knew who died about 46. I don't know that it's possible to talk about it. Really? Because [01:16:00] it's not something you can compare with anything. Um, I suppose it's a bit like a war. The first man I loved. Guys that I partied with, young man. I saw coming out [01:16:30] people who lived in our house and were friends. I guess that it's difficult to know what what effects these things have on you because you don't know what the alternative was. You don't know what life would have been. [01:17:00] Um, one of my very, very best friends is still alive. He's not got the virus. Hey, um, works as a cleaner drinking far too much because all his friends are dead. You've mentioned a number [01:17:30] of people through through the recording, and I'm wondering, Are there people that you would like to talk about that we haven't touched on yet? We really should talk about Gary. The second, Gary McGrath, who must have arrived in back in Wellington in late 1984 [01:18:00] from Melbourne. And I was on switchboard duty and a call from someone in the Victorian AIDS Council. They said, We've got this guy's coming back I said, I said, What sort of a guy is he? I said, Oh, we don't really know quite what to make of him. There's a bit of a rogue and, uh, but quite engaging. [01:18:30] But he's not quite wrong to live. They lived for quite a long time, and, um, he was a drug user. He's also gay. He had a big role in setting up the needle exchanges. He set up something called the Ivy League. He hadn't any experience in politics, but he got a sense that it was important. [01:19:00] And he asked, he he he, you know, asked me what to do. And I sent him off to a lawyer friend of mine who gave him some free legal help setting up a trust and set up the Ivy League and got onto the board of the AIDS Foundation. Pushed towards the needle exchange, um, or to the needle [01:19:30] exchange system. And, um, yeah, had a huge impact. I never quite knew what was true. And what was make believe with Gary. He, uh, minister was always about to come to lunch, and lots of money was about to arrive. Was often bullshit. [01:20:00] But sometimes the Minister actually did come to such and sometimes money did arrive. And sometimes even from legitimate sources, Um, um, uh, yeah, he played a huge, a huge role. Um, and, you know, might as an individual have had as much [01:20:30] impact as most of the people we talked about. Except perhaps Bruce, but his and his different style is not likely to be remembered. Um, no, he's he's important. Um, is there anyone else? Peter, Um, who was, [01:21:00] um, early on, um, one of the, um Peter and daniel were among the first cohort to be diagnosed with HIV. They would have been tested the same week. I was, um and, um, would have tested positive. Um, and [01:21:30] he was on the New Zealand AIDS Council and his partner, Daniel lived a lot longer and was on the board of the AIDS Foundation. They were both very effective organisers. Very effective, um, at mobilising people at making the bureaucracy work. Um, getting results [01:22:00] out of the system. And isn't Peter cut his panel on the AIDS Memorial Court? Is that the first New Zealand panel? I think that's quite likely. And and that was the A quarter in New Zealand was established by Daniel Daniel Fielding. That's quite likely. Yeah, Yeah, that that would That would make sense. What? Do what do you think of something like the the AIDS quilt? Yeah. I mean, I I think [01:22:30] that, um we've got to find ways to remember and I I think that was lost track a wee bit in separating out, caring for people, preventing the spread and remembering. And these things have become separated and [01:23:00] I. I actually think that Oh, they're an integrated whole. Obviously there's got to be a division of labour and all but III I I think that I think that I think I think that they're all I think they actually relate to one another and build on one another much, much more than they've been allowed to in recent years. [01:23:30] And, um, I think that Justice Kirby was talking about a a queer museum, and I think that's important. But I think that it's important not only because we need to honour the past and [01:24:00] note the injustice and and remember the injustices of the past and in order to prevent injustices in the future, but that the fight against injustice and the fight for health are very closely tied together and and can and can be more closely tied together. And the fight for for health can [01:24:30] be part of a museum project. Um, so I I, I'd like more thought about. Also, it's a way of getting funding for it, probably, and it's perfectly consistent with the Ottawa Charter, which is supposed to be the the principles of health. Promotion is enshrined in this document, which says that it's only through the struggle [01:25:00] for human rights that you're going to get a healthy community. I. I actually believe that I don't know that they, the Ministry of Health, does. How do you think a. I DS and HIV have changed you? It's I. When I was saying before I, it's difficult to [01:25:30] to imagine a an alternative reality. You, You know, you are who you are. And you, um when this started, I was more or less a political scientist. And it's been part of the process which has turned me and her all sorts of other things. Yeah, there's no doubt I'm a completely [01:26:00] different person because of HIV in in every in every way. I turned care to imagine what I would have been like if I if it hadn't have been Probably, uh I think perhaps I, I, uh uh, if I were really selfish, I'd I'd have to say that, um it's been a bloody good thing for me. Um, in terms of making me a person [01:26:30] better than I would have been, um, comes at a cost, that's all.
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