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So I'm Sebastian. I'm 21 years old, and I live in Wellington, and I'm a non-binary trans masculine person. Um, I was born into her body, assigned as female at birth. So I have, you know, all the generally associated bits and bobs. Um, but I don't really feel like a woman. I've never really felt like a woman. Um, but I'm not a binary trans man, either. I'm sort of somewhere on that side of the spectrum, but, you know, floating around and dancing with some glitter. [00:00:30] Um, do you think that there are many people within the queer community that have similar experiences to you? Absolutely. I know that, um, you know, within trans people as a group, I mean, there's so many different ways to be Trans, but, I mean, definitely, personally, I know at least a few people with similar gender identities, but, um, that being said, it's kind of a like trans people as a group, you know, are are pretty, pretty much a minority within the queer community. And, like, we're [00:01:00] often left out of stuff. What sort of stuff? Um, well, I mean, it feels like a lot of time, you know, people will go. Oh, you know, I'm all for, like, LGBT rights. And like, LGBT issues, it's mostly LNG issues. Sometimes B issues. Not really T issues. Um, a lot of I mean, this is I I'm speaking, OK, I guess I'm kind of, um, smashing a couple of things together here, which is firstly, there's an experience of, like, institutionalised oppression [00:01:30] and other. And and then there's also, like, interpersonal stuff. So, like within the institutional thing, you've got the structure of queer people as a group being, you know, um, sort of they they're the other in terms of how our society is sort of structured, it's mostly structured around this idea of normality, being generally speaking, white, middle class, straight, sustained, able bodied, etcetera. You know all the kind [00:02:00] of things when we talk about notions of privilege, basically the idea of normalcy, or like the ideal person, or like the person who populate society. The person that we care about is the one who fits all those privileges. And so to be clear, you're already you know, you're already away from that and then again to be trans and the community when I say people often say, like the gay community. And to me, what that means is whites as gay dudes with money generally and [00:02:30] like. That's fine. Um, so when I when I say, um, I basically mean the opposite of Trans so that somebody who identifies with the body and gender that they were assigned when they were born. So, like most people, generally speaking are sis. Um, when I say trans, that's short for transgender or an older term transsexual, which isn't used as much now and generally refers to people who have had surgeries. Um, [00:03:00] but most people use transgender now because it's like less specific. But, um, transgender basically means that you don't identify with the body or the gender that you were assigned at birth, and then within that, you know, it's it's a it's a really good umbrella term because when when I say it, like most people will think of traditional FTM or NTF, which is female to male or male to female transgender people, Um, who are undergoing, you know, a binary transition from male to female or vice versa. Um, but then [00:03:30] it also encompasses a lot of people like me who don't identify with that gender binary of male or female? Um, you know, a rigid sort of dichotomy. Um, yeah. So that's kind of what I mean when I say that, I think see, the thing is like, you forget that, um, when you get so like, you know, because being trans is just a really central part of who I am, and it's a vocabulary that I become very familiar with, and I just kind of throw it around and you, I mean, and that you forget that there's a lot that you're communicating that people don't necessarily understand. [00:04:00] And I mean that that already is kind of it demonstrates how, um, even the vocabulary I use the very basic structures of how I describe myself are misunderstood by so many people. Um, that that already shows you You know how much how it is sort of treated as being a minority group because, like, um, it sort of leads Definitely. I felt like people make a lot of wrong assumptions about me, which is something that I've talked about, um, with you before, I think. But also just generally, [00:04:30] um, you know, like I look, I'm I'm on, I'm on testosterone at the moment. So, um, this isn't as structured as how it would be, but, you know, um, I'm on testosterone at the moment, um, which is part of what we call H RT or hormone replacement therapy. Um, And for people who are trans masculine or, you know, FTM or who were born female and who are transitioning, um, that's the hormone they take because, you know, it's the male sex hormone. Um, so I've just started taking that, [00:05:00] um but because that will basically lead me to go through, like, a second puberty. Pretty much a male puberty. Um, but because I've Oh, this bleach in my hands. OK, testosterone, testosterone. Um, I'm [00:05:30] taking that, um, because I've just started. There aren't very many changes at this stage. Um, but so people sort of still view me as, like, a butch woman. Or, um, my endocrinologist said that he thinks I look like a 14 year old boy, which is funny. Um, I'm, like, 21 so, you know, but, um, I totally see that. I do. I do. Kind of like a 14 year old boy. Um how do you feel being in the minority of Trans people, which [00:06:00] is itself in a minority. Is that difficult? Yeah. Um, firstly, I guess, like, Yeah, I would agree that that's the case being non-binary because a lot of trans people are binary, but, um, do you find the trans community is very accepting of non-binary people? Uh, it really I mean, I don't think that there is such a thing as like the trans community is like, AAA monolithic kind of thing. Um, the groups which I choose to associate with, um are But that's purely [00:06:30] because when people aren't, then when people don't understand me, then I'm like, Oh, I don't really wanna hang out with you. You know, I choose to distance myself from those kind of groups That being said is definitely like, uh, structures, which are, like, you know, the centre of the community or kind of what people view as being part of the community. And generally speaking in Wellington, I found those to be pretty good, um, so that I'm lucky in that experience. But there's definitely difficulties with it, just in terms of, [00:07:00] um, just again that basic like lack of understanding, like people not picking up what you're putting down with your gender expression, which is on a on a personal level. It can. It can be a frustrating and it can be even a triggering experience because you're sort of like, Oh, people don't see me how I see myself and that can be really upsetting. But then also in terms of dealing with official things, you know, um, again, a lot of things are really focused around the binary. And even though we are coming a bit, you know, there's been progress made [00:07:30] with, you know, transgender activism and ex and acceptance and stuff. There's still it's still like people were Oh, yeah, there's like male and female sis men and women. And then there's Oh, there's trans people, but generally they're still understood as a binary trans person. They're understood as wanting to be C rather than being Trans, actually being a different experience that isn't always about anything to do with being sis. You know, you talked about, um, being trans in Wellington and your experience with that. [00:08:00] Do you think that in places in New Zealand other than Wellington it would be harder to go through what you have? Absolutely. Um I mean, I'll talk a little bit about like my background. So I'm from Fielding, which is a pretty small town, Um, in the it's about 20 minutes away from Palmerston North. Um, so it's the kind of place where you know, people from Fielding go to Palmerston North for fun. So it kind of tells you a lot about the place. No, I mean, it was it was a good place to grow up and that, like, it was really safe [00:08:30] and like, you know, um, that was all fine, but in terms of, it's pretty. It's a pretty conservative area. And I mean, it was hard even to kind of come out as queer because I didn't really start realising that I was trans until I learned what it was to be Trans. And that was when I was around 16, and I sort of learned from like, vloggers on YouTube and the Internet and stuff. Um, they definitely weren't local resources for trans people. They weren't even for queer people. So even when I was like, Oh, I'm gay like [00:09:00] I was lucky and then I wasn't bullied for it, but I was definitely, like one of maybe two or three queer people in my school of 1400 or openly queer people. Um, and I was only not bullied because, like, I was fairly well liked. Um, yeah, what do you think we can do to make it easier for people who are trans or non-binary coming out and going through that process that you've just talked about? Sure. Well, I think the main thing, um, is education [00:09:30] because the most difficult thing that I've encountered is just a lack of understanding because it's exhausting to have to, you know, educate people about these very basic truths about who you are every time you encounter any person like and I mean, you never know what they think about gender, that you, because you never know what their experiences are that you can never really know how people will react to you telling them. And it's so frustrating. It has to be something that you have to tell rather than just something which people understand. So I think education. Um, I'm actually [00:10:00] an educator with schools out. Um, so I do I go into high schools? Um, when they have classes on, you know, gender diversity and I. I talk about my personal story and stuff. Um, and I've found I've had really good feedback from that. And I think having that kind of education that schools are does is is just so important. And they because it's like you really it really? You just need everyone to, like, learn about it and understand it, and then it would be fine. But I mean, [00:10:30] that's such a difficult thing to implement. So I think what schools are doing schools art is doing is really great. And it's a really great start. Um, and I think also on a like, just on a personal level with people. Um, you know, it's important for people who are who know trans people in their lives to be supportive and like take on some of that burden of educating people as well, because it's really hard to like, you know, constantly have to justify your existence. But yeah, I think [00:11:00] the main thing is education. How do you think? In an ideal world, you coming out as Trans and, um, taking changes to yourself would occur rather than with the issues you've highlighted. I wouldn't I mean, I've been lucky in that my family has been pretty supportive. Um, my younger brother has been very supportive. My mother is finding it a little difficult, partly just because again of a lack of understanding, Um, but in I, in an ideal world, I wouldn't have to come out because [00:11:30] gender would be much more fluid than it is now. Um, yeah, but I guess in terms of a world in which I had to come out, I got lucky in my experience. Um, because I know a lot of trans people who have had, you know, they've been kicked out of their homes. They've been, like, horrendously bullied at school. Yeah, there's been a lot of really horrible stuff that's happened to trans people, both historically and now, but, um, I've been lucky to not have to deal with too much of that, but it would [00:12:00] be really great if my mum, instead of being upset and like worried, was just like, Oh, OK, cool. You know, I'm glad that you're taking the steps you need to like, be true to yourself and be happy with how you are in the world. And I think, um, in an ideal world, a lot less of that coming out conversation would be education because that it it's so hard to change because the way people view gender is is so fixed and is so fundamental to a lot of the way our society is structured and it's something which is taught from a very young [00:12:30] age, um, and to sort of challenge that is hard and to challenge that when you're telling someone someone very personal. So when you're telling someone something very personal about yourself, you know, it's just it's another burden. If you could say anything to the trans community as a whole or different trans people in Wellington about being non binary or about acceptance, what do you think that would be? I [00:13:00] think, um, that it's important to trust that people know about, like, know themselves and they know what's best for themselves and for respecting the choices that people like. It's important to respect the choices that people make. I think I would guess I would just encourage people to not be instead of being like, surprised and defensive when somebody differs from your expectations or what you think you know about stuff, celebrate it and be inquisitive and [00:13:30] warm and try and you know, learn about it without being invasive to the person, obviously, because it can be really stressful. Do you think that differs from what you would say to queer people as a whole or some people? What I would say to queer people is probably that, but with slightly firm like slightly harsher words, perhaps because I feel like they should know better, Um, again, it's that thing of like when you are in a in [00:14:00] A in an oppressed group, Um, you kind of it can be really disappointing and even more hurtful to be treated poorly by someone of another or even the same oppressed group than it is to be treated poorly by the person who's oppressing you because you expect that, you know that's gonna happen, you know? And it it's kind of like being stabbed in the back by someone you thought was your ally. So to queer people, I'd say trans people exist. Firstly, Trans people aren't like [00:14:30] weird and crazy versions of queer people. Trans people are just people trying to be happy, the same as you are, and please stop leaving us out of your marriage equality campaign. I don't even care that much about marriage, but it's really annoying. How do you think trans people have started with? Oh, sure. Um so recently in the AC T, which is the Australian capital territory in Australia. Um, obviously, um, some same sex marriage laws were passed and in order to because they're gonna get a high court challenge from the federal government. [00:15:00] Um, because the federal government is like, No, your same sex marriage laws are unconstitutional, so we're gonna challenge them. Um, so in order to have the law stand a high court challenge, the AC T were like, Oh, OK, well, we'll just specifically exclude trans people from the legislation, and then maybe the laws will stand. So we got kind of thrown under the bus on that one. So I'm kind of mad about that. But that's an example of the kind of, you know, the [00:15:30] fact that I mean also in in the discourse around marriage equality. It's called gay marriage, like a lot of the time, which is inaccurate, you know, it's about a lot more than that. So what do you think it's about? Um, it's about, I mean again. I'm not I'm not even really that into marriage. But marriage equality is about the same rights for everybody. And not the same rights for straight people and gay people. Yeah, um, so do the queer people would say, you know, remember we're here [00:16:00] And remember that it's not all about you. I mean, and also, you know, we're we're not the same. I mean, but a lot of overlaps, like a lot of trans people, are queer. I'm a queer trans person. Um, but yeah, it just kind of sucks to be left out of a community that you feel like you should be part of, um, yeah. And then also to assist people and destroy people just Oh, my God. Just too much to say. So much to say. Um [00:16:30] I mean, yeah. I mean, there's, you know, there's a lot of hurt there that I think that says people and straight people need to acknowledge and need to remember when they're interacting with queer people, even on an everyday basis. Because when I meet people at parties and they go Oh, my God, this is so cool. I've never met a transgender before, you know, like, don't treat me like a weird, exotic like animal. And as though I'm just another person. I'm just hanging out at a party, [00:17:00] you know, like I'll talk to you about it because it interests me and it's relevant to me and being trans and gender and exploring gender and talking about gender. I love all that stuff, you know. It's very interesting to me, but I don't want to be interrogated about how I identify when I'm just hanging out. Or, to be honest, I don't really want that either, But yeah, So, um, I guess to all the people who really to anyone who's talking to anyone, just just take a breath [00:17:30] and think about what you're saying to another person and think about the historical context of what you're saying and the what? What, what? You know what institutions and structures of power are backing up. Various things that you were saying just basically, you think you're just having a lovely chat with someone, but you're not. You're re enacting a whole bunch of power relations all the time, and that's an important thing to consider. Do you find you get asked a lot of invasive questions? Oh my God, all the time. Like this whole interview? [00:18:00] No, Um, I do. Yeah. I. I, um People ask me like I mean, one of the most like, compelling stories. I think about it that I have is that I was walking along one night with my friends, and it was it was reasonably late. It was like, maybe midnight. Um, we'd seen a movie or something, and we were looking at walking along Courtney Place, and these two girls came up to me, and I didn't know who they were. And one of them came up to me and she put her hand on my chest and she said, You you're a girl. A And I was just completely, [00:18:30] like shocked because, firstly, the strange woman who I didn't know was touching me, which is, you know, not really OK. And secondly, I did not know how to answer that question, because, I mean no, I'm not a girl. I can see why you would read me as a girl, but also you're not like she wasn't asking it because she was genuinely curious. She was asking me if I was a girl because she was saying you are being a woman. Wrong. and I am policing [00:19:00] you on this. You are not living up to my expectations of what a girl is, and I'm calling you out on that. And I mean, of course it was. It was so weird because I'm not trying to be a girl, so I mean, of course I'm not living up to your expectations of what a girl is. But, I mean, how do you communicate that in a single moment to some drunk girl who's grabbing your chest? You know? So, yeah, stuff like that. I mean, that's I used to, um I don't really go clubbing or whatever. Um, because if I used to, like, I'd just [00:19:30] get harassed all the time. Um, not always for my gender, a lot of the time for my perceived sexuality. So it's just kind of not only is it harassment, which is, you know, it sucks, and it's not nice to do that to people. Not only is it harassment, but it's also just inaccurate, and I never because you I mean, I guess the response is to just tell people to like, can I swear or probably not? OK, well, you know, you get what you get you get the idea, but [00:20:00] yeah, it's really bizarre, um, sense of entitlement that people have if they if they don't understand someone like, you know, I was saying before that people should be as understanding as they can and should try and find out about stuff if they don't know. But again, it's like the way to do that isn't to be aggressive and to, like, confront strangers about very personal things. What do you think the way is to do that? Well, I mean, this is a good way, you know, having this is a You're [00:20:30] interviewing me about something like this is fine. You're putting it out there as an educational resource again. I have to go back to the stuff that school I was doing with education in school. But like, it's that thing of thinking again about what? The weight behind the words and the way that the relationship between different people and different kinds of people it's that thing about power, like it always comes back to that like [00:21:00] sorry to keep being like, oh, institutional oppression. But a lot of you know it it it expresses itself in these tiny everyday interactions, and I think that's just something that everybody should think about all the time.
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