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Uh, my name is Jack. I'm 21 years old, been living in Wellington for four years now, barring a year in Auckland, Um, I'm a sex worker. I'm a massive video game nerd. I'm relatively androgynous, which is what I was hoping to talk about and stuff, Um, other things I like long walks on the beach. So you've been in Wellington for, like, I moved up when I was 18, just after I finished high school, Um, lived [00:00:30] in Newtown for most of it, Apart from I went away for a year in Auckland. Came back. Um, I basically pretending Wellington is my hometown. It's sort of where everyone from my town moved to, and it was just sort of fit me really well, It's got a much bigger community and also has quite a strong gay community, as opposed to the town I came from, which makes it a lot better for someone like myself. Do people like when people see you? Do you think they would, like, read you automatically as being gay? [00:01:00] Um, so basically, the way I look is I wear mostly male orientated clothing barring my high heel shoes, which are pretty pretty boots and then usually a full face of makeup. Which shoes just, you know, the basic foundation. Mascara, eyeliner, contour, all that jazz. And so you know, I. I look extremely feminine, but also I usually get picked as gay. Very few people don't think I'm gay, but you're quite [00:01:30] a androgynous. Yeah, so mostly I get described as a lesbian. But that's not really true, though, so it's just a sort of odd combination of masculinity and more femininity. So you were like thinking about, um, gay views on sex work or the kind of, um, sort of the house. The gay community is quite odd. It's very sex centric. It's, I think I'm [00:02:00] not entirely sure why, but it's just very open about sex. And talking about sex is something a lot more common than with, say, the heterosexual community. I find, because I do. I have a very large amount of heterosexual friends and sort of hang out in the heteronormative world quite a bit. And so it sort of the different terms, too, is the gay world is very more open and talking about sex, but also it's still very sex phobic and that there is a very sort of fine Goldilocks zone in which you can be you have to sort of be You can't be a version [00:02:30] in the gay world without getting shit for it. Basically, that is not something that's OK, but also, if you have sex with too many people, it's also bad. And there's a very sort of fine line of what you can and can't do in the gay world to do a sex and then as a sex worker, I get a lot of crap for that. Basically, I've had sex with 432 guys. That is 412 more than that is basically appropriate. And people think that due to my job, I'm lots of things. Basically, I think I might be on drugs. They think [00:03:00] I might have kids to support or some sort of debt to repay that I'm forcing myself to do sex work for, or a bunch of other things like Daddy or whatever they want to come up with at the time when really, basically the only thing forcing me to do sex work is by rent and also the ability to eat and buy pretty pretty makeup. Do you think? One of the assumptions that people make about you as a as a like gay queer? Um, I identify as gay, but that's most [00:03:30] not inconvenience. I, um the way I'd probably easily describe it would be a Kinsey five if you're talking on just a binary scale. But then that's such a weird spectrum. I don't know where you're out for, but I, I can't really say I'd just say sexually fluid or a slut. Yeah. So do you think that people see you? Um, and and on the basis of, like, how they read you and you being a sex worker, do you think people, um, like, you were saying earlier about people having a kind [00:04:00] of almost like an assumption that you will want to have sex with them? Yeah, it's sort of because I'm a sex worker. I'm a lot more with the word like, hard. Are you towards six, like, you know, people will sort of if I don't want to sleep with them. Well, like probably the most common thing would be I sleep with someone and they not want to do it again for some sort of reason. Like maybe the anti-sexual. Maybe they're racist. Or maybe it just wasn't even good sex. And they don't particularly want sex to be like, Oh, but you have sex with anyone like I'm like, Yeah, but they also pay me. And [00:04:30] so basically, because I have sex with anyone for money, I should have sex with this person because whatever they're reasoning may be, maybe they think they're attractive. They're young, whatever. And it's sort of like because I'm a sex worker. I am just a sexual object. Like I'm not the person who deserves respect and rights and have the ability to give consent. I will quite often just get groped just in public, like by certain individuals who I do not at all represent the gay community or anyone at all touch from themselves. But they will think that it's OK to touch me because [00:05:00] I am a very sexually open and give off quite a sexual energy. And I guess people are, you know, often, you know, there's a bit of an attitude towards femininely gendered people, especially, I suppose, if you're like you know, you're like male assigned, so you're like you're a guy and you're feminine do you think people think that means that they have a kind of, you know, um, being feminine? Well, that being feminine means that you are asking for [00:05:30] sexual attention or something. I would say it's definitely asking for attention. According to them, Um, just because of the way that you know, masculine and feminine work is that feminism is lesser. I find that a lot of the sort of because of how feminine I am, and I very much enjoy it. I enjoy my masculine aspects, and I enjoy my feminine aspects. But my feminine aspects tend to get a lot more like flack like, I don't know how many guys who haven't touched an eyeliner brush in their life come up to me and tell me that my eye looks terrible and that I need to do it. That's what I need to use whatever they heard on Ruel drag race or whatever. [00:06:00] And then I'm just, like, know how that you try and get the wings to match and and see how well you do. And so they will often just come up to me and give me critiques because I'm a man doing feminine things. But Also, I will get a lot of stuff like, you know, you look better without makeup. Why do you do this? People will sit down and have very serious conversations about me about why I wear heels. Why I wear makeup. Why do I do these things? What is is it for attention? Is it you know, like no, I don't decide to wake in the morning like I'm going to put on a pair of heels and do makeup because [00:06:30] I want people to look at me. The looks I get in public are not the nicest things in the world. Like this morning, I was waiting to cross the road, minding my business. These two people in the car were just staring at me and laughing weren't even considering who I was as a person, just I was looking straight at them. They were just staring and laughing like I was some sort of spectacle. And so I just find that just because of how excited you soon as a whole, it's not something that what my point was like like, as people are [00:07:00] wondering why you would sort of lower myself almost and the only reason they can think of is for attention. But that's just sort of because of how society views humanity, as though you need a reason as though there's something wrong with it, like makeup like you don't need to be a woman to wear makeup. There is sort of nothing in there that you know you have to like be a woman to operate a like mascara brush. There's nothing in there like makeup and high heels. High [00:07:30] heels were originally designed for men, like as a masculine thing to make you look taller and more dominant. And then women started wearing them and then men didn't want to because of women, and then they became a woman thing. But I can wear high heels, and people are like, Why do you wear women's shoes? I'm like, I think I'm quoting idiots out right now, but I'm not wearing women shoes I paid for. These shoes belong to me. I'm this, this male it It just kind of confused me a bit that people like I get that you know, it's not normal, like I'm not speaking to people just be like, totally OK with it. Straight off the bat. [00:08:00] It's the same with sex work. I'm happy to explain it, but you sort of when people come to me with their own ideas and sort of just want me to reconfirm them, then I'm just like, yeah, yeah, you don't. You're not under any obligation. I'm happy to explain it, But as long as you're sort of wanting my opinion as opposed to recon affirming of your own And, um, how do you find that that, um, being a sex worker impacts on, like, you know, relationships or hook ups with [00:08:30] other guys? Um, um, a lot of people think, Well, not a lot. Every now and again, I will get someone who thinks that because I'm a sex worker, I am, like, positive or have some sort of things which I don't know how accurate it was. But I did remember reading a study where sex workers weren't were more likely to know if they had something because of how regularly we get checked up. I get checked up as regularly as I can. Basically, which is every three months, is always recommended, [00:09:00] which is what I do. Sorry. And so, you know, I like a lot of people. I know are sort of like, Well, I have sex with someone and then sort of I usually try and tell someone I'm sex with before I have sex with them. But also, I don't feel it's something I sort of need to like, openly shouted. And so if they find out and they want to get you, I'm like, yeah, when was the last time you had a test and so sort of they will be like, Oh, I haven't had one Or it was, like, 10 months ago or something. I'm like, Yeah, I had my last test, like, two months ago. How much have guys have you had [00:09:30] since then? Uh, you know, I do have sex with a lot more guys than what is considered normal, but it tastes a lot more than what most people do. You're probably a lot safer as well. Most definitely a lot safer and so sort of with relationships. Relationships is a bit different from just hook up hook ups is sort of. Most people are OK with it because they realise I'm safe with everyone I have sex with. Whereas relationships, people sort of want to change me and I haven't. Actually, I've had one relationship while being a sex worker. [00:10:00] It was a strain in our relationship because of how he wanted to have sex. But I'd been busy having sex all day, and so I didn't want to, but I was happy to do it for him, but he wanted me to do it for me, and so that was a strain. But that was the only one because he understood the difference between being as well, having six and money and having sex romantically. I don't have any sort of emotional attachment to a client as a like this emotional attachment to a client is the same as someone who has to like a customer like you like them at work. But like, if [00:10:30] you see someone you make coffee for on the street, you're not really gonna be like, Hey, Oh, my God. Let's come back to mine and make a coffee or something. Let's just work. Um, but in the last few weeks, I've had quite a few, actually, not in just the last few weeks. Last year and a half, I've been working. Um, people sort of want me to quit the industry like and they think it's sort of a nice thing like they're saving me. And it's like they want me to sort of stop my job and they will look after me and stuff. And so they're like, become unemployed. Yeah, basically quit. You're working. I will look after you even though I'm a student [00:11:00] or something. And then I'm just like, Yeah, cool. You live on, like, 100 and 70 a week, and you want to support me, even though my rent costs more than you make in a week, What? And so they'll ask all these like they'll try and convince me to change who I am for them. And then at this point, like most of the time, it would be like a third or second date or something like, I don't even think they're viewing me as a person. At this point, I think I am again just an object because they can't conceive what I do, how I view it, which is it's my job, and I enjoy it. They think [00:11:30] it must be something entirely horrible that I'm forcing myself to do so they don't really view me as a person and don't listen to my opinions, and it's not fun. That must be frustrating. Little bit like when you have a chef and a chef loves their job, uh, you know, and then you have, but it still work. They don't necessarily want to cook for everyone all day for free. You know, it's kind of Or maybe the chef, um, doesn't even love their job. They're just like me, pays the bills, it pays the bills, you know? Or maybe they actually are like, uh, not particularly into. Maybe I'll just [00:12:00] do this for a bit and then do something else. There's a whole lot of different ways that people Yeah, it's just a job. It is. It has so much social stigma. That's just because sex is itself has social stigma. Like I'm allowed to do it. It's perfectly legal, and I just don't understand the sort of a horrible thing. I mean, I can get where they're coming from. I just don't agree with it basically, and it does sort of affect my relationship with people and that, like like on a friend level, most [00:12:30] people are OK with it. Some people just do not understand. But then I'm just I don't particularly care, but on a romantic level, it's just dating. And being a sex worker is a very hard thing to do, especially just sort of with that. This is where the sex sex phobic side of the gay community comes in and which, like a sex worker, is many stages too far for the sort of status quo. And so, like, people just won't consider me anything apart from a massive and they will be concerned about me. And it was like it just doesn't work. [00:13:00] Sort of. It's sort of almost like, um, you know, it's kind of like concern trolling right? Like people get a bit savy it gets a bit like the new cause. I was like, Yeah, I'm happy as I am. Hm. Thank you, but no. And then there's these people who are just sort of like they will. They're the sort of people who will announce that they love me within like, a few weeks. I'm just like you're not emotionally mature enough to decide things for me [00:13:30] like I am a legal adult. I am emotionally mature and I can look after myself, and I've been doing so for the last four years. I'm pretty sure I can make my own decisions at this point. But thank you. Thank you, kid who moved out six months ago from your parents house. And my parents are still paying for the university halls and stuff. I mean, sorry. What you So you're saying before, um, that you have worked in, um, like, like, brothels as well. And like [00:14:00] male brothels. How is that different? Or how you know, how was that working in brothel as opposed to independent work? Yeah, um, different. And, uh and they both have their ups and downs. Brothel work is a lot simpler, but also it's not entirely on my terms. And also, I get less money. Char a brothel or a client pays the same at a brothel as he does independently, But then the brothel takes a cut, but then they're also doing all the work and sort of all the set up. And I'm [00:14:30] just there for, you know, the hour. I don't have to sort of do the texting, the calling, the looking after the rooms, providing condoms and all that sort of stuff. They've got a place they can always work from and it's good, but also sort of. It's they they set the prices and I have to be OK with it, which, you know, obviously that's my choice. If, like, someone's like, Oh, I'm gonna charge you $40 an hour today and then I'll be like you And so it's not something I'm I still have control over that and then also sort of the other things will be like how I present myself, how I dress and [00:15:00] even things like that I might want to pick my name, which, you know I will. Most of the time. I'm OK with and I can always say no, but it's sometimes nice to sort of be able to say no, I want to do this without having to cause the whole which is what independent work independent work is, whereas everything's under my control. I get to choose how I do things. I get to choose if I want to work that day or not, but also things like it's, I have to put in a lot more work. I've got to provide my own place, lobe condoms, all that stuff and sort of do all of the entire thing myself as opposed to just [00:15:30] the hour booking. So I I don't know which I prefer. I prefer I like what I have at the moment, which is a brothel. Well, not brothel work, but it is working through an agency and they manage the calls and I go to there. But it's still my the way I do it. But you still market yourself how you wanna do your marketing and that Well, they choose how they market me. I have an input, but it's their decision, but [00:16:00] sort of they will do all the work and stuff and all the all the behind the scene stuff. So you've lived in Auckland and in Wellington, like in the recent the last few years. How do you say, How would you think? Um, you know, the Auckland scene is different from the Wellington scene. I was thinking gay, but however pro is probably easy to describe uh, in Auckland, Auckland [00:16:30] as a whole. As a community, this is Wellington, from my point of view, is Auckland is the way to describe to people is if you smile at someone in Auckland, they will be confused and wondering how they know you to see why you're smiling at them and if they sort of need to smile back, whereas in Wellington you smile at someone that's gonna smile back because they're nice people. There's more of a community in Wellington. Auckland is is bigger and there's no real sense of community. Everyone sort of doing their own thing, which can work. There was just a massive sense of, like anonymity to it, which sort of also translated into the like [00:17:00] world. In the Wellington scene, I am friends with the majority of the sex work male sex workers in Wellington, and we're all friends and we help each other out, like we all have the same set prices of 200 an hour and it's all good. We help each other out. We give each other tips. We give each other like clients sometimes and recommend each other to them. Auckland is very doggy dog. It is. You hoard your clients, people will lower their rates so that they're more available, so like and it happens all the time. I just When I went up there I was 300 an hour. Then I noticed everyone else was 1 [00:17:30] 50 an hour, and then someone would be charging a special 1 40. And then everyone was 1 40 then dropped on to 1 20. And then it would just pop back up and go on this odd little cyclical cycle. And I just stayed fine at 200 like, you know, it would sort of be like when they were charging 1 20 I would be getting this work. But also, I just didn't particularly want to do this for other people. I wanted to charge home rates, but it was sort of I. When I moved up there, I tried to. I messaged a few of the people on and like Hey, need to like new male prostitute to Auckland, sort of looking for [00:18:00] like friends. And also, if you guys know any places to work from all that sort of thing, guys looking nothing back two weeks later, I need someone for a three text all of these guys again. Hey, I need another prostitute for a reason, I think six out of seven replied, So sort of like you don't help other people, which I mean Fair enough. We're competitors, I get it, but also it's just like it is nice to have a sense of community. Like if there's a bad client in Wellington, I can text them all. And they're like, Hey, Auckland, I've tried it and I get anything back. And I think there was one time [00:18:30] I texted someone like, Hey, you're about to go see this guy. He will try not to pay you. He didn't reply back. I mean, I think they somehow heard or something that he went to the guy anyway. Like, I get that Maybe I was trying to steal the client or something, but it must be like nice when you have, um, yeah, like when you have that sense of community and you can kind of look out for each other And, you know, when you need someone for a three and also just even just talking to people like sort of [00:19:00] people you can understand. It's hard to understand what it's like being a prostitute without being a prostitute like you can understand. But you don't really know it. And so it sort of it's really nice to be able to, like, talk to someone and then just sort of like, have a debrief you've got a bad client or someone and sort of, you know, it creates a better sort of work atmosphere, too. Like you're like, Oh, I can go talk to about this client or something and like, it's just fun. And it's a lot nicer. It's a more happy and healthy work environment. And do you find that, um, you [00:19:30] know, when you do have, like, a more of a sex worker community, you can, um, you know, give each other tips on how to you know how to work safe or how to clients, Or, like, even the little things of, like squeezing your thumb to your gag reflex? Oh, yeah. If you squeeze your thumb, it squeezes your gag reflex. I'm not joking. Um, so, like, that was a tip I gave to a sex worker because he was telling me he had trouble with a sensitive gag reflex. I'm like, Is that a real thing? [00:20:00] No. No, I'm not joking. It actually works. Now I want to put something in my throat. So things like that and you know more serious things, so that, like, like, quite often, sort of. I'm not shy at all about being a sex worker, I tell most very rarely do I not tell someone I'm a sex worker. Even if it's someone on the street asking me what I do for a living like, I just [00:20:30] tell people. And so quite often someone will come to me on some form of like, you know, grinder or Facebook or something and be like, Hey, I'm curious of being a sex worker. Can you talk to me about this? Help me and what do I do? And I, you know, usually I'll be very open. Ask why and sort of. I never try and convince them to be a sex worker, But I will always be very happy and sort of I try and being as passive as I can. But you know, people will often come to me and sort of like, That's what I quite like that I can be there for people who want to enter the industry and be like, Hey, go to NZ PC. Get [00:21:00] all of your stuff to read the book because it's great and, you know, like basically how to advertise yourself, where to advertise yourself and all the basics and how to keep safe and, like, you know, it's really nice to be able to sort of. When I first entered, I had a mentor like a mentor, I guess. I think he called me his, um, but yeah, like, he sort of taught me him the things to do and sort of got me started. And I was, like, sort of debunk some. And [00:21:30] it's really nice to be able to sort of have that community of just like, I will look out for my like, you know, the guy who just started, even though, like, and like, sort of a where it's just sort of you enter it, and then people like you're basing everything on your own ideas. And so, you know, you might have a few bad ones, you know? Sounds like nice kind of community building. If people can, people can come to experience workers and, um, ask them questions and get, you know, useful information and stuff and networks. [00:22:00] Yeah, especially because, like, Ackland, when I was leaving, I am actually had made a prostitute for I actually want a date with a guy and turn to prostitute. Whoops. Um, but, you know, he was starting to work he was interested. I was like, All right, I've got a client tonight. Jimmy takes him and see if you want a threesome. And he was like, Yeah, sure. So I think I charged the guy 300 for a threesome. I gave my guy 200 told him I charged him 400 then I just took on for myself. I was like, Yeah, this has been nice. And he wasn't gonna pay 400 for a threesome. [00:22:30] And so the guy we did it, it was fun. And he came back and he was thrilled. He was, like, high on adrenaline and just super keen. And I was like, OK, cool. Um, tomorrow, let's set up your stuff, give him time to sort of settle down and do all that stuff. Then sort of, you know, he had a couple more clients. I texted a few of mine because I was leaving back to Wellington at this point, being like, Hey, I'm leaving. Here's this guy. Do you wanna do a threesome or do like, you know, most of the sort of clients that was giving him were sort of the more vanilla ones or more of the three. So but yeah, [00:23:00] he sort of took over from me when I left. Sort of like that seems quite common that people have kind of, you know, like not exactly a buddy system. But like, you know, mates, who they just walk past it is sort of if someone's sort of lacking or I've got too much work, I'll be like, Hey, take this guy text If you're sort of like like, I'll get people sort of text me like, Hey, I want sort of a more like Maori or something I don't know, Maori agent or whatever. Um And so I'll be like, Yeah, go to this [00:23:30] one. Yeah, if they want someone who has a different ethnicity or they're like yeah, yeah. So if you know lots of other sex workers, it's easy to, um, it's easy to like Hook people up with work. Yeah, because sort of like there's I'm trying to think if there's very few sex workers in well, I don't know, but sort of all the ones I do know, we sort of all have our own niche, like I am the sort of tweak and I know, sort of like the big bill we do and everything else. That sort of fits into the wonderful spectrum. So I can sort of always easily, like, sort of [00:24:00] pass people on. And then I get ones from other people and stuff. It was like just that works. Do you think part of the reason why lots of the male sex workers, um and Wellington, uh, like, know each other and have a, you know, quite a good like working relationship with each other, I suppose. Do you think that that's to do with, um, you know, that there used to be like a couple of male brothels here where a lot of people worked at the same time. So I think it might Do you think it's just because the guy said he has very little? Or maybe I think I'm trying to think how I met most of the escorts [00:24:30] I met most of them. They me, either most of them through the gay scene or through prostitution scene in Wellington. There has been 123 brothels that I have worked on, and they've all been run relatively well, 21 of them better than the other two, because one of them. OK, but, um, the you meet the prostitutes there and, you know, it can in brothels, it can be very sort of. In Auckland, I worked from a straight brothel [00:25:00] hiring rooms, and it was a bar scene, which basically means the client walks in and all the girls stand around, and then he picks the girl from there, and the girls hate each other up there. None of them talk. And very few of them were friends. Um, like, the way it worked in Wellington was that, like, we made sure that no one sort of felt like you didn't have to sort of work for a client Everyone would equal. And like, by the way, I worked in the first world I worked from that. We all sort of had the same script when you went to meet a client. Basically, if I were sitting in a meeting room, we'd [00:25:30] go in one at a time. Hey, my name's Jack. How are you? Blah, blah, blah like It would be a very short, sharp, concise thing. You wouldn't be sort of like, Oh, my gosh, You booked me because I'm so good and I'll give you like money off or something. Like, no one ever did that sort of thing because it was sort of like he will book who he once. Yeah, and then sort of, like, say, like, quite often, sort of, if someone would be like, they had a bad streak for a couple of days and get that much work. And then, um, you know, like, a couple of the guys might, you know, mess up their interview with the dude. Yeah, [00:26:00] and so it would make him seem better and us seem worse. Question. It was just sort of looking after each other and sort of all four on one for all. Basically, you were, um you're planning on moving overseas, so yeah. Oh, God, I have no idea. Actually, no, no, no, no. Yes. Today I worked out. I'm going to Melbourne on Christmas, by the way, um, my friend in America, who I met through video games, is moving to Melbourne from Texas or something. Um [00:26:30] and so I'm going to move with him in Melbourne, and it'll be Apparently, I will sit Melbourne because it's like Wellington the bigger, which means it's like a like about Auckland and Wellington market, which is fun, but, um gamers. So there is a community on the Internet, multiple different facets, but all the same thing of gamers, which is GAYAR gay people who play video game game gamers with the Y, These people from all around the world when I first sort of move, you know, when I first moved to Wellington, I [00:27:00] stumbled across this group and sort of started doing talking to them. And they were sort of my first gay friends by every sort of other gay person. There's quite a common thing. It sort of like the young twink who moves from a small town up to Wellington or some big city and then goes into the gay thing thing near the some hot young shit and, like everyone should give them attention. I'm such a sexual being. Everyone should be buying me drink stuff and it's a load of shit and you see it every year and basically like I feel bad because I did this exact same thing, got there, [00:27:30] thinking, Oh, everyone's gonna look at me and stuff, but I am pretty sure I look tragic as hell. Yeah, so I'll just be like in a bar or something and see these like, light girls coming in being like, Oh, my God, Look at me. Oh, and then No-one cares because they're boring and so sort of they won't and me myself. I'm not well, I'm judging them, but I'm also judging myself in the process because I was once one of them, like we all sort of did it. Basically, it's a sort of [00:28:00] bad thinking that everyone went through and sort of when you. When I first started in the gay scene, I sort of viewed gay guys not as friends. Gay guys were just things to have sex with. Like they were sexual partners, whatever. And then I sort of started talking about game online, and it was great because I just had a community of people who I physically couldn't sleep with because they were like, halfway around the world, and I could talk to her like some of them are like some very, very good friends of mine, like, and it was great and sort of I will talk to these people about most things [00:28:30] and like it was great to be able to sort of hang out with gay people and understand how gay culture works. But I something that does quite annoy me, is sort of the young gays who are coming onto the scene don't because they don't quite respect about how the gay culture works. But they think that being gay being gay is basically only like who you're attracted to. But the gay culture is a hell of a lot more. It is sort of things like drag queens not caring about this like social norm, defendant and masculinity and all this other stuff, and [00:29:00] they get these little like they go back. For Andy, thing like that is sort of part of the gay culture and that, like, you know, you don't have to dress a certain way because of you know what gender you are. Let's just do what you want and be happy and different. It's like you sort of already going against the grain. You know, you're already they already something different instead of eating pussy. So why not just go further? Don't even lie, Jack. You do both true. [00:29:30] It's really This is actually something that kind of pisses me off a lot, A lot of things about sexuality, in the gay community pissed me off. Um, like my old flatmate who hates me now so I can openly bitch about him. Um, I once just mentioned to him that I had sex with a couple of women. I had sex in my life was six soon to be seven woman, and I identify as gay and I just had I not. It's sort of I don't know how to describe it, but it's not like I specific, like, just every now and again. I want to have sex with woman. I'll go [00:30:00] do it and it's just I think it's possible because being a sex worker that sex is just such an open and easy. And there's no sort of hang ups about it that I can, you know, happily go and do this. And so I told him, and he was like, Oh, you're bye. No, I don't identify as Bye. That's not who I am. I don't like If I was, it would be like a They're just going on the odds like a 1% straight 99% gay thing. So, like I mean, I might be might be six. I don't know what I would [00:30:30] be considered like I if I had to pick it. Technically be pan. But also because of the other positions being so little. I just go with gay and then just say I'm sexually fluid, which is how I describe it. And But people don't accept that because I've had six Children, so I must be by. This is something that is set in stone. You're either 1234 Whatever that it sort of people have evolved from being like, Oh, you have to be gay or straight But it's not a thing. You have to be one of either two. You have to be gay. You buy [00:31:00] straight pan long as people will call me. I don't quite like I think I would probably identify as queer, but I mean, I don't particularly care what I identify as like. And if you identify as gay, well, then you're gay. And if you occasionally have sex with a woman, that doesn't make you not gay, but it makes you really bad to be gay. I don't like obey my label. God damn it. It's funny that [00:31:30] you know, I use labours to identify myself. I don't have to listen to them. Funny that. But, um, yeah, no, I'd say I'm queer, but like the way it works with me is like, if I want to speak with you and you want to speak with me, let's touch wiggly bits or whatever and yeah, if you happen to like my slightly slightly more than slightly feminine aesthetic, then good if you don't. And so, um, do you have you done like, um, gender performance or anything like [00:32:00] that? Do you do? Um, because sometimes people make the people make the assumption. Yeah, I guess people make the assumption that if you are like and gay that you must also be a drag queen. And not everyone is. But then sometimes people do. I mean, I've done drag, but I've also dressed as like a cowboy and a policeman and stuff, and I don't have any desire to be either of those. Like I've done drag because it's fun. But I don't call myself a drag queen. I've [00:32:30] put on a dress and makeup and heels and stuff and gone down to a bar and hung out with people like it was a costume. It wasn't I'm not at my heart a performer. I much prefer being backstage as opposed to on stage. And so I'm not like I have nothing, obviously, against drag queens, I you know, I like them as a thing, but it's just not what I wanna be. I just want to be a dude who wears makeup and you've done lots of, like, backstage stuff, uh, fair amount, like it's sort of It's something I do actually really enjoy and sort of like I much prefer helping someone from behind, [00:33:00] damn it. So, like stage management, that sort of thing. That's kind of something that you like. I'm not like, I think people think that because I'm sort of quite I look different and people look at the dude with the heels and the makeup, and people just think that I really want attention. But I I'm like everyone else. I don't mind attention, but it's not something I crave. It's something I'm like Cool, you like my shoes. I like my shoes, [00:33:30] too. That's awesome. Guys and heels and makeup is also normal. It doesn't have to have some kind of meaning. It's not. I'm not doing it for you. I'm doing it because I like my shoes like I. I care about my shoes more than you can. Just be honest, but I mean mostly, I think the reason I'm doing it ever since I was like probably probably about eight, I think I was eight. I I because I knew I was gay. I thought I had to sort of obey the gay norms that I saw on TV, which is basically I mean, I thought I wanted to be a fashion designer, [00:34:00] didn't I? Suck at fashion? Um, but basically I sort of looking at men's fashions and things, and it's extremely dull. It is suit and shoes, and maybe, if you're like, feeling like daring, you'd wear a fancy coloured tie as opposed to a black or a white one. Heaven forbid you wear something blue brown shoes and black pants or whatever, and there's all these horrible rules, but it's all very, very basic. And so, like I'll be going shoe shopping [00:34:30] with being like, really hating everything, because, like, do I want chucks or do I want sneakers or something? And they'll look at the women's shoes and be like, Do I want you know what stilettos or wedges, or whatever the heck women shoes are nowadays. And I'm just like those are so much more interesting. Those ones are red. Those test out on them. Those ones light up, but then they're for six year olds. But I still want them, Um, and so, just like a couple of weeks ago, no pressure. You only like last week I decided Screw up. But I've worn women's shoes casually on and off every now and again, [00:35:00] and also things like women's pants and make carpet and women's clothing. And just like that looks good to me. I like it and sort of. But heels were sort of the thing I've always wanted to do but never sort of. It's the line. It's kind of that men don't wear heels. That is the line drawn by social norms. You are not allowed to cross that line because it is. You can wear women's pants if they look like men's pants, but you cannot wear heels because only women wear heels. And then I was just like, Oh, fuck it, I want heels. Do you find that out in public? You know, like [00:35:30] um being like looking really thin and wearing heels and stuff like that. Do you find that you get a lot of, um, harassment from the general public or not actual harassment? But I haven't. The last time I heard someone call me a faggot or something to that effect was I mean, well, I can't really say it's justified because this never is. But I was walking through Newtown talking to my friend about sex, and, you know, it's not really something in public, but [00:36:00] it's also just sex, so it doesn't really matter. And then some guy just said, Fuck you fag it to me So I just said No thanks. You got my type and just kept working on with the day, and that was probably about two or three years ago. But all I get now is just people looking and staring, and no one will ever say anything to me. To be fair, I do. We headphones a lot, so they might be saying things. I might not hear them, but, like I would get people staring. But none of their friends look at me and I'd be like, Cool, don't care, because, like, these are people like basically all these. These eyes, like some old lady, might [00:36:30] tell a story over, like, morning tea tomorrow about that guy they saw in heels and eyeliner. Although, actually, when I was in, but it was in Auckland, I think I told you this story. Um, we were at me and my family was getting coffee, and the table behind us started talking about that. Really? Have you guys seen that guy who walks around with, like, eyeliner and no shoes on? And I was just like, I see him so much, and I was like, I don't know if he's OK. Do you think he's mentally well? And then it was just like sitting there. My friends were just staring at me with this, like, filthy look, because it's like [00:37:00] in the mornings I'd be getting ready for work or whatever. I'd have a full face of makeup on, no shoes, and I'd just go down to the DR and get cigarettes or whatever. And it it was close, and I couldn't be bothered putting on shoes. And so, yeah, apparently I was the crazy person of which was beautiful. And yeah, people do talk and they they don't understand. But it's not that hard to get your head around it when you actually like, put some effort into thinking about it. It's just sort of the I am the first thing they say and they're not used [00:37:30] to it. But then the way, the thing that makes me happy and the thing I think that, um besides the fact I really enjoy them. But the thing that makes me keep doing it, despite the sort of looks and shit I get would be that I want it to be the norm that, you know, masculine, feminine things aren't gender based and, you know, feminism being like being effeminate. Being a bad thing. Like I hate that. I think it's stupid. There is nothing wrong with pink [00:38:00] or dresses or makeup or whatever is considered feminine. Now it's just stupid. And so, like if I start wearing heels, maybe someone another guy who likes heels will, or maybe someone will start wearing makeup or whatever. And so, like, you know, if people want to, If I open the door a community building that you were talking about before, like if you can, you you can be visible, but I can start something maybe like it's the same. Like the reason I'm very open with sex work is so that people have [00:38:30] some that they know in sex work. So they're not basing all their things on like Hollywood movies. I'm happy that people can talk to me and have, like, intellectual conversation with me about sex work, because then they have sort of like a normal view on a sex work like so people can see it being a normal human from the fact I have sex and money. That's the only thing about me that's really interesting, like apart from that, I'm a normal 2021 year old guy. I play video games, I eat pizza, I wear heels, [00:39:00] you go to the dairy and you make up to buy cigarettes and like you're a normal person doing a normal thing in the morning. Yeah, like I'm not just a sex worker. I think people, it's sort of like when you're a kid and you kind of don't realise that your teachers have lives outside of school, but you think it's sort of just like they're in school like you see them in town. You're like, Wow, you're not meant to be here. It's sort of that, like the only time I have like I exist is like, you know, 11 at night on the street. If you're a street worker or like, you know, on the news when, like some football [00:39:30] that got caught with, like, you know, prostitutes in there I don't know whatever. And so, I I completely forgot what the point of this conversation was like. Oh, yeah. Um, so I'm open with sex work because I want people to sort of have a more accurate view on what sex working is and things like when I've done sort of commuted interviews in the past where people from anywhere in the world can ask me questions quite often the response I get like So I was coming here sort of explaining some sort of like massive stories about cocaine and whatever, and actually, you're really boring [00:40:00] and you're just normal, and I'm guessing that was your point. And just whenever I get there, I just get really heavy. I'm like, Yay! Another person is convinced that sex working isn't weird and strange and crazy, like it's just built up to look like that because it's apparently interesting, but actually, sex workers are normal people with normal lives and their job as having sex for money. Like the other thing I would say is that like I have yet to meet a boring sex worker. That's really it. Like we're all interesting people in our own ways, and we've had It's [00:40:30] not an easy job by far. But then neither is things like being a soldier or being a doctor, that those are still socially respectable. We just normal people who have a different life to you.
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