This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. You can search the text using Ctrl-F, and you can also play the audio by clicking on a desired timestamp.
Well, I'm, um non-binary. And I'm also sort of fall on the, um, mental illness spectrum. Um, with, uh, depression and generalised anxiety disorder. Um, yeah, uh, when you say non binary, what does that mean? Um, so that means that I don't really identify as, um, male or female. Um, uh, I guess, um, [00:00:30] it, uh it means I don't for me, because I guess it means a lot of different things for a lot of different people. But for me, it means that my gender doesn't really even exist in relation to those things. It's something else entirely. So, yeah. Um, what was the process like coming realising this and coming to terms with your gender identity. Uh, so when I was growing up, I was like, I wasn't really, um, into kind of traditionally feminine, um, like, whatever [00:01:00] society calls feminine things. Um, but because, um, it wasn't really talked about or there wasn't really any education about it. Um, I just sort of figured it was a kind of a thing that was all in my head. Um, and I would just have to kind of like either conform to, like, a role of male or female. Um and so, um, that was kind of what I did, which was not very fun, [00:01:30] but, um, then I came to Wellington, and I came to university here and started, like, meeting a lot more. Um, kind of trans and queer people. Um but I guess, uh, I sort of, um Then then I found Tumblr. Um and what did you find? Tumblr, which is a website on, um kind of like a microblogging [00:02:00] platform. And it's got, like, a really big queer community. And that was actually where I first found the word non-binary. Um and I was like, Oh, this describes my experience because a lot of it because I hadn't really met anyone who was non binary at that point. And, um so I didn't feel like any of the experiences that other people who had met had had really, like, fitted my experience of gender. So when I kind of found out, I was like, Oh, that's that works for me that term. And then yeah, that was basically [00:02:30] it. You talked about coming to Wellington. Where did you live before you came to Wellington? Um so I come from Palmerston North, which is um, an interesting place to grow up in, Um, but, um, it's it's like it's really good, but it's, um, quite small and quite insular and not very friendly towards, um, kind of queer people, especially queer minorities. So, um, yeah, it was, um, [00:03:00] like, it was difficult enough being just queer there as, like, not even being like trans or, um, uh, mentally ill or whatever. Like it's just Yeah, it wasn't really a thing. What were some, um, reactions. You had to coming out to people back in, Um, so when I came out, because I haven't really I'm not, like, super out to a lot of people as non binary, so I never really came out in Palmers north as non binary. Um, [00:03:30] when I came out as gay, um, that was interesting. Like a lot. There were obviously a lot of people who were really supportive, like my best friends. Um, basically, basically told me that they had known for years and years and stuff, so that was really great and comforting. Um, uh, there were some people who stopped talking to me at school, um, which [00:04:00] wasn't like a huge deal. There was kind of a lot more being It was like a lot more of it was from people I didn't know. So, um, like being visibly queer. So like, walking down the street, holding hands with a girl that, like, we had rocks at us one time and, like people were just, you know, yelling like dikes or whatever at you, Um, which sucks. But that's, I guess, kind of the sort of environment. How did that affect you coming [00:04:30] to terms with your identity? I guess it was kind of rough, like it was a it definitely made me wanna be more like, be more of an activist kind of thing for it. So because I guess by that point like I, I think I'd kind of gotten past the point by the, um of of, um, kind of questioning my identity and stuff. Um, like, OK, I think I I mean, I think [00:05:00] it affected me in terms of of, uh, being silent about it. So, um, I did it like I didn't come out for a really long time because there were people like this and incidents like this and stuff. Um uh, because I was really like, if I'd actually kind of I, I think. Possibly, you know, if I'd lived in Wellington, I probably would have come out. And I was, like, 14 as it was, I came out when I was 17, nearly 18. Um, because there just wasn't that there wasn't visibility, [00:05:30] and there wasn't positive, um, kind of talk about queer people. And there weren't queer people in my school, and there wasn't, um uh, QS a or GS a or whatever. Um uh, but once, I like when I did come out and when I did get negative reactions like that, that just kind of made me be like, Oh, my God. This is why, um, you know, we need activism, and we need people. We need more representation for people like me who had to do that kind of thing. [00:06:00] Um, so that's why I kind of, uh I guess that affected me in that way and that I'm now like wanting to make media, um, for people like me to consume so they don't have to go through what I did. Can you talk to me a little bit about representation? So I guess, Yeah, I guess. I think I mean, I don't know. But I think, um, if growing up, I'd had, um a better [00:06:30] representation of a bigger variety of, um, queer people and queer youth, Uh, in the media that I consumed, um, it would have been a lot easier for me to come out. And I would have come to terms with my sexuality and my gender identity. Um, a lot sooner, Um, and in a less kind of anxiety ridden, traumatic way. Um, can [00:07:00] you name some media that is out there about queer youth that you maybe did consume, or like, at that time, Or or now, um, it's like it's way better now. Um, uh, I think there was skins around when I was that age when I was a bit younger, Which kind of, uh and, um, that had a so yes, TV show called [00:07:30] skins that had a, um uh, representation of of two, gay young, gay women. Um, do you think that sort of representation in the media positively helps young people who are coming out? I think it does. I think it does. Um, yeah, I think it would have for me, like I don't I don't know, but I think it would have for me. Um, so I can, like, imagine it being really helpful. [00:08:00] Um, what else is there around at the moment? Um, obviously, a lot of it's still kind of It's still evolving, and it's still, um, problematic. And it's still getting to the point where it's more positive representation. But even things like, um, there's a really, really trashy MTV show at the moment called Faking It, Which is amazing and terrible, but, um, but not not terrible in the way that it's got [00:08:30] a a, um, bad portrayal of queer people like It's not very well acted and not very well shot or anything, but it's on MTV. And so, um, that's such a huge thing. Like it's got an intersex character like a really positive representation of an intersex character on MTV, and it's set in a high school, and it's like pitched at that age. Um, so even things like that, I guess that, and that's a really reason that's only come out this year. But like you can imagine, having watched that as a young [00:09:00] as a younger person and being like oh wow, like I can come out, I can um, be myself whatever kind of thing. Totally. Um, so am I right in saying that you're interested in theatre? Yes. Yeah, I'm a theatre maker. I guess I'm primarily a director and a designer. Um, so how do you incorporate queer representation into the things that you create? II. [00:09:30] A lot of the big stuff I've done recently has been because I've written it. Um, so, uh, I really, really like to write scripts that have, um, queer people in them. Or especially, um, trans people and non-binary identities. Because, uh, like, yeah, so the media is coming to a lot more of like, um, gay and lesbian representation recently, but there's still, like, a shocking death of, um, [00:10:00] kind of trans identities and stuff like that being represented in the media. And when they are, it's often in a super like, um um binary kind of a way. So, like, at the moment we've got orange is the new black with, um, live in cox. And, um, is it transparent? Which is a a, um, not Netflix. It's like an HBO. It's an HBO TV show. Um, and it's, um, about [00:10:30] a older trans woman, but it's still um, there's still very little that exists for like, um, gender, queer and non binary and age gender and, um, like even, I guess you could call them minority trans identities, maybe, Um, certainly non binary identities. Um, and so this show, um, that I just did. I tried to kind of write some characters into it that [00:11:00] were existed, like a little bit outside of that, like, um, especially in the way they were played. So, like, all the characters I think were played by people who didn't identify as that gender, so it would, like, added in another layer of, um, kind of complexity, um, to it. And there were a lot of things about that show that didn't necessarily work. But, um, I think definitely the people who watched it were like, Wow, this is This [00:11:30] is a really different thing that we don't see a lot, um, which is really powerful because it means that not much stuff like that is being made. So, like making it is a really good thing to do. So, yeah, just writing writing characters that have those identities into scripts and writing theatre. That's, um, kind of like radical. I guess and, um and I mean, it has to be. It has to be kind of snappy and entertaining and funny and sexy, [00:12:00] Um, and kind of provocative, though. I like those Are all my buzzwords, my script, Um, and, uh, and when you do that, um, uh, if you're if you're doing it right, you're making theatre. That's not, um, mainstream theatre anyway. And so that becomes much more of an interesting and, um, kind of safer space to to [00:12:30] represent those characters in a in A In A in A theatre, that's not, um, kind of conventional. So even if it's writing, um, like complex nonlinear plot lines or, um, doing theatre in a place or like a space that's a different, like not in a traditional theatre or things like that. And so, um, that not only makes the theatre really interesting, but it also, um, gives you kind of an end to to, [00:13:00] uh, minority kind of issues. Um, what are some shows like that that are happening at the moment or in the not too distant future? Oh, gosh, I don't know. Um, yeah, it's not. There's not a lot of it being written. Um Or put it another way. Um, what can we do as New Zealanders to help support, uh, queer youth and their representation in the media? [00:13:30] There's a lot of things that stop, um, this kind of representation happening. And I think one of the big things is that overwhelmingly, um, oppressed queer youth, especially minorities within the queer community youth, um, are not are like too busy worrying about surviving to be writing representational media. Um, which is, um, [00:14:00] difficult, but so, like, I think, you know, we have to We're talking about, like, complete overhaul of society here. Kind of thing kind of scale. Um, you know, we have to we have to support and, um and like, just make the general world safer for for, you know, for, um, kind of minority youth. Um and I think like as that, that's sort of starting to happen. But like, [00:14:30] as that happens, then we'll be able to say OK, um, now, like, we're going to create spaces for, um, uh, queer youth to kind of do that kind of stuff. So, um, you know, getting, uh, getting queer youth into even like getting queer youth into university theatre programmes. I guess even though I'm like, I'm not sure how necessarily useful that might be. But, um, things like that or just, [00:15:00] um, kind of making spaces and resources in which people can tell their stories in the way that they feel most comfortable. So, um, like, not everyone is gonna want to make theatre. But, um, you know, maybe some people are going to want to make video games like or or websites or whatever. And just like, providing if we can provide queer youth with resources to do that kind of make that media, I guess. Um, but that, Like how you go about doing [00:15:30] that? I could not tell you. You know, um, you talked before about queer youth, um, struggling to survive, like instead of maybe making media. Um, why do you think maybe the queer youth specifically are struggling more with that than others? I didn't really see this happen Or maybe, like, a little bit, but yeah. So where I'm from, um, there is a You know, there's a very, [00:16:00] very real possibility that you will be kicked out of home if you come out kind of thing. Um And, uh, So that's you know, that's a thing that specifically, um, affects queer youth. Um, so, uh, and of course, if that happens, then there's a whole slew of other sort of problems and whatever that that come with that. Were you worried about that? Personally? Yes, it was, um, and [00:16:30] and And you like you pick up on that too. Um, you know, because it wasn't, like in my house. And it's a subtle kind of form of oppression, I think, um, because very rarely is are your parents going to say to you, um, you know, if you ever came out to us, we'd kick you out kind of thing. That doesn't happen. Um, it's just, you know, little things like, um ah, [00:17:00] when civil unions were legalised, Um, and it was on the news, and my dad was like, Oh, what are they doing that for kind of thing. Um, and I was like, Oh, God, Um, well, I obviously didn't think that at the time, but now I do. And I can see that as being one of the things that made me think that he would kick me out if I came out to him kind of thing. And so Yeah. So there's that. That's a big thing. Um, have you since come out to your father? Yes. And he did not kick me out. Um, fortunately, [00:17:30] he wasn't thrilled, but I did have a roof over my head for the remaining year that I was living at home. So, um, good to hear. Yeah, which was nice. Um, I did have a plan, though. So, you know, just in case. Um, yeah. So that's a That's one really big thing the parents thing for, for for youth, I think, Um, accessing kind of accessing. Good, [00:18:00] um, like, health care And, um, like, even, um, even education about things like sex or whatever is really, um, you know, really difficult for for a lot of queer youth, I think just because it isn't that there isn't as much of it around, and that can kind of get you into a whole lot more problems with, um, different things, you know, Um, like, I don't think I'm just trying to remember about whether [00:18:30] we actually talked about gay people and, um, sex Ed and I don't think we did. What was your sex education experience like? It was awful. It was No, it wasn't awful. It was just not Not great. Um, I can't remember anything about it that suggested that, um kind of like it was a whole blah, blah, blah. Um ah, don't lose your virginity kind of thing, Which in itself is super problematic and geared towards like, [00:19:00] heteronormative, um, ways of thinking about sex. And, um, so it was just, um Yeah, it was just really like, I just remember it being really, really heteronormative like everything being geared towards. Don't get pregnant. Kind of that. What do you mean by the word heteronormative? Um, just gear, like so, uh, pitched in a way that negates queer identities as if [00:19:30] as if heterosexuality is kind of the only way of being Or, um And it's not often in this case, you know, I don't think it was done specifically out of malice. You know, it's not saying Oh, queer people don't exist. It's just that they don't think about it. Um, which is is a subtler form of oppression, but it's still, you know, um not great. Um, it was not a very helpful for [00:20:00] me as a kind of queer teenager. Um, and but I like it's it's changing a lot. Now, I think, um, which is good. Even in the kind of four or five years since I've been out of high school, it seems to have progressed. Um, a bit like I know, for example, now that, um when I was when I was at high school, or maybe the year after I left, I think my ex girlfriend tried to start a QS a and they wouldn't let her. Um, but [00:20:30] I know that there's one running now because, like, a few kind of years down the line, uh, another student had, um, that I sort of vaguely know, had managed to start one, which is really cool. And so that was just, you know, isolated in my little small town kind of school. What do you think the importance of QS A is, Is I Oh, I just think it would have been like it would have been so huge for me to have something like that, um, at my school, just because, um, [00:21:00] it would have been a you know, it would have been a really good forum to talk about these kind of things. These challenges that we face like being kicked out of home. Or like, not having a good sex education Or like, um, you know, getting getting access to mental health resources that were queer friendly or things like that, Um, uh, and so like to provide support like that. But also just to be like there are these [00:21:30] are these are who the other queers are. And now I know them. And now I can get support from them, like I'm not just the only queer in high school, which I kind of knew that I wasn't. But also, there was no way for us to really, like connect, so that was really that was not very fun. But you talked before about, um, struggling with mental health. Um, how do you feel that that impacted your coming out experience and coming to terms with your identity? [00:22:00] The relationship between my queens and my mental illness is really, um, interesting. Well, I don't know, Um, because when I was in high school, I, um I was really unhappy, and some of that was unhappy because, um, I wasn't out, and some of it was unhappy because [00:22:30] I was depressed. So there was like, and and a lot of it. It was a lot of the time. It was really difficult to tell the difference. Um, so I guess there's there's always that thing of of question, like, am I? You know, am I just unhappy, or am I unhappy because I'm not out to my parents kind of thing? It was not as simple as that, but if you were to kind of boil it down, um and so [00:23:00] I guess, Um, yeah. So, looking back on it, there was a lot of, like, the kind of mm uh, stuff that happened. And like, the kind of experiences, um, where I was like, Yeah, you know, if if I had been out, it would have been a whole lot better. And part of the cause of that unhappiness was, um was the fact that I was super close and super, you know, not OK with my identity [00:23:30] and in a really, um, not really conservative, but more conservative place. But also, I think it's really it's difficult to separate those two things, Um, and like, definitely now, like, I still obviously, um, have depression. And it's still there, despite the fact that I'm kind of totally cool with my various identities. And so I think, Yeah, like, I guess one of the challenges of that is like, that whole [00:24:00] thing of questioning, You know, uh, whether whether my mental illness is valid, because, um, because it's been exacerbated by, um, my closeted queerness. Um, but yeah, again, that's that's a problematic way of thinking, and it totally is valid. But, um, I guess it just makes you kind of question that when you have multiple kind of things [00:24:30] going on Yeah, can you talk about, um, the response? Talking about your, uh, gender identity and other minority queer identities within the overall rainbow community Or, uh, like, gay community. So, uh, being non-binary in a gay scene or being right? Oh, that's yeah, that's interesting. Um, this is something I've been thinking about, [00:25:00] like, a lot a lot lately. Um, which is the so for a long time, I. I just said I was gay because I didn't particularly like the word lesbian. Um, and I like I really like the word queer. And I still use the word queer to describe my, um, sexuality. Um, but I kind of pe people. People say that um, gender and sexuality are two completely different things than they are. But also, [00:25:30] they have, like, a very interesting overlap and that, you know, if I say I'm a lesbian, that has the inherent implication that I'm a female who's attracted to other females, which isn't true because I'm not a female. Um, so, uh, like, a lot of the time, like a lot of lately I've been kind of thinking about like I don't like, what word do I use to describe my orientation? Because it's so, [00:26:00] um, uh, a lot of those words are so tied up in, um, in in gender. So, like, um, the other night, um, we were at the gay bar in Wellington. And this, um, woman comes up to us and goes, So I assume you're all lesbians, right? Um and it was interesting because, um, [00:26:30] that sort of that was the immediate assumption, I guess. And because various like, so there's various layers there of, like, you know, being not just gay gay, but, um, but pansexual or bisexual or non-binary and attracted to other non binary people as well as female people and whatever. So those words of of [00:27:00] that are used in the broader gay scene of of kind of orientation become difficult and problematic when they're applied to some minorities. I guess so. Very few of the people identified as lesbian. Yeah. Despite the fact that, um, you know, this is clearly, like, this is gay bar. And this is what this woman was thinking, I guess. I don't know. How have you found people? Um, are you out of work? [00:27:30] How have you found coming out at different places at school, at work again? This is the orientation thing. But my most people who know me know that I'm, like, ragingly queer in terms of my sexuality. Um, but, um and so that's been really pretty much totally cool. It's certainly in the place. I'm working at the moment. That's been completely kind of fine. Um, because it's a theatre department [00:28:00] at a university in a very liberal city. Um, and so, you know, theatre. I think theatre is tends to be inherently pretty, pretty liberal. Um, how do you think, Uh, that would be if you were still living in Palmerston North. Um, I think that would be difficult. Like, I think I wouldn't for a start. I wouldn't be able to have the kind of job that I have here that I really, really enjoy. Um, in Palmers north. So I would probably have some kind of job that I probably [00:28:30] hated. Like, um, something in hospital or something. I don't know. Um and I can imagine that being difficult like, yeah, difficult to tell people. And just there would always kind of be that fear of am I going to get fired kind of thing? Um, I don't I think it would entirely depend too. Like, I think if if you're working at a place, um, that tended to be more on the [00:29:00] kind of like, um, I can imagine you know, this. We have a really good library in Palmerston North, for example. And I can imagine if you're working there, it would be fine. Um, but potentially, you know that we also have some really, really, really awful, um, like, dive bar kind of situations. And I can imagine working there and being like, Oh, God, you can't like you can't be gay there kind of thing, because that that whole environment of that place is so geared towards like, rape people's interactions. But, [00:29:30] um, if you could send a message out to coming out Queer youth, um, in similar situations to you, If you could give past 55 years ago you some advice, what would you What would you say to myself? I would probably say, Just get over yourself, Emma. Like, get over yourself. You're gay. Deal with it. Like, um, because I spent so much time ang about it. Um um, yeah, so [00:30:00] I'd just be like, It's fine. You're gay. It's fine. So most people are going to probably be OK with it. And you're gonna have some, like, amazing relationships and friends and stuff who you'll meet through this and like, it'll be fine. It'll be fine kind of thing.
This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
Tags