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I guess my identity is, um, I. I prefer to just identify as Danny is the truth. Um, without any disrespect. I. I feel that a lot of the times, a lot of terms that are, um, sort of thrown around I I feel that I don't necessarily want to identify with just because I feel, um that sort of complicates my identity in a way that I don't need to. [00:00:30] I totally understand the need for a lot of, um identifying factors and features. Do you mean because it feels like it limits it or, um, people have assumptions around a label or something like that. That's I think that's what it is. It's Sometimes it feels like a label to me personally. Um, and I find it easier to identify to find my own identity. Just, um, by using my name and describing what I do and describing, um, [00:01:00] myself. Um, yeah and I. I mean, like I said, I do understand why there are, um what? What? What I find are labels. But what other people will find is something that that's comforting. And the reason why I find them as labels is because sometimes I feel like there are burdens or expectations that come with them. For example, even even something as basic as like, Oh, I'm Chinese. Um, so I am Chinese. [00:01:30] I'm from Hong Kong. Um what? What does it mean to be Chinese? Are their expectations? I think as an immigrant, there probably are a few expectations, or at least in, uh, some images that that that, uh, obviously have kernels of truth. But sometimes I feel it's easier and less complicated to live without and something that we probably should aspire to. Um, to have, um, [00:02:00] things that describe people to be almost almost neutral, that that don't have to come with a whole lot of baggage. Hm. And I mean I. I will. I think I will. I want to talk about Raven Simone if you remember her from that. So raven, she's now on the view. Um, recently, she's made some comments that have been about labels and identity, and it's had a few controversies and a few criticisms, and I can totally see why, because [00:02:30] it can be interpreted as quite inflammatory. What she said was, she doesn't want to be are labelled as African American. She doesn't want to be labelled as gay and, um, well that it sounds like she's saying that she's not black or she's not gay, but I. I kind of understand where she's coming from, and my friend actually explained this to me. I think what she's what she's trying to say, and this is what I also sort of believe in is that [00:03:00] as a society I, I think that we're trying to aspire to is that we is is one where your preconceptions of someone shouldn't have to come from the labels that they're assigned with. And that's what I want. That's what I want to be. I want to be in a society where, um being gay and being Chinese as factual labels rather than social labels have. They don't have to carry any expectations. [00:03:30] They don't have to carry, um, any negative or positive positive connotations. Um, and I think that's a really good thing. That's that's my real opinion. So if a label carries weight or you know, assumptions about it, what would you say? You know, what do you feel like the labels that are applied to you? Not necessarily that you apply to yourself, but that you know, may be applied by other people. What would you say? Some of the assumptions [00:04:00] or stereotypes are around those and how how they affect you. Um, well, I think the the I think you're right and that it's the stereotypes are the main thing that are attached to these labels. Um, for example. Well, I mean, from from experience in high school and actually throughout life. When you say you are gay, Um, immediately. There are assumptions applied to being gay, um, to being [00:04:30] to being specifically Chinese, gay and male, I guess, Um and it just differs between between every single person out there. But I feel like stereotypes such as, Oh, if you're gay, then they say, Oh, I knew it because, um, you have a higher pitch sounding voice, and I'm sure there's phonology and phonetics and acoustics associated to some kind of, like, biological reason or something like that. But, uh, I mean, [00:05:00] if if you're assuming all of that about a person, then then what? What do you know about the person? Well, how does that colour your interactions with them? Like, um, my my friend recently, he he asked me, Are you comfortable with being identified as as the Danny, the gay guy. And I said, Well, I mean, I'm OK if you're just saying that [00:05:30] to identify me as an they don't know which, which Danny or which can go. But I don't want that to be just what I am. I want to be in control of my identity. Um, and being in control and being in control of my identity doesn't just mean choosing what labels or choosing what I want to be. It means pretty much having no identity, if that makes sense. Um, OK, just like, um, by [00:06:00] by the boat like I'm 19 and, like, my opinions are like pretty much gonna change properly next week. And disclaimer. I'm I don't I don't know what I'm talking about, but but this is what I think right now. It's just, um I want to I want I don't want my identity to be tied down anywhere. And does it feel like, um, the way that society interacts with your identity or you interact with society? Does it feel like it is quite [00:06:30] tied? I think a lot of the times it can it can feel that way because, well, as much as we like to say that, Oh, we're colour blind or we don't care. But you know, there's always an undertone because partly because of history, because, like and historically people, people of colour, people who are, um, LGBT have been discriminated against and seen in a different light. And historically, [00:07:00] as in from my childhood, like whenever you, uh, from childhood, I think is the only place. It's the only time I remember being sort of like, um, not bullied, but I guess kind of bullied, but like sort of being outcast or feeling strange about being either gay or Chinese, where people, you know, like kids with, um, like in year two, come up to you and say, like and then say, What did I say in Chinese? And I'm [00:07:30] like, What the hell was that? That's really, really funny because they're tiny Children, but I'm sure like I'm sure that does affect you. And, you know, it's when people ask, Where are you from? And I say here and that's a bit of a lie because I'm from Hong Kong. But sometimes I just feel sick of saying that even, you know, like As you can tell, I have a quite a broad Kiwi accent or and [00:08:00] like I've lived here since I was four years old. And my identity is with here as much you know, as much as I want to identify with being Chinese or Hong Kong, I think I can't deny that. You know, I I'm a New Zealander pretty much, um, you know, and that's what that's what my family thinks as well when they see me, because I can see the differences. Do you feel represented, or how do you feel? Like, um, the representations around being [00:08:30] Asian or being Chinese or being gay or gay and Asian exist or don't exist? I think that representation of um, a spec as a specific group in the population is, um, it's important for young, especially younger people, but also for just everyone in that group. Um, in order to feel, um, like you can your your pa you you [00:09:00] can be like you can be anything you're not tied down to a specific path or you're not tied down to specific ways of saying things of acting or anything like that. Um, and like I said, that is tied to labels. I think it's because of labelling people and sort of carrying stereotypes and, um, ways of looking at ways that other people perceive you. That it perpetuates like [00:09:30] a cycle where, UM, there is only is only one path for, uh, like, say, a gay Asian person. Um, and what I find most harmful about that is for for me personally, is that there's not so much representation in any of the like any of the things that I want to do. Um, and it's not It's not. I don't think it's necessarily, um I mean, it depends on each [00:10:00] like profession, I guess. But it it it's not necessarily the the fault of anyone in there. It's, um it's just a societal quirk that's happened. And it is unfortunate. For example, do you want to do so? I study law and linguistics and, um well, to be honest, I don't know any gay Asian lawyers. I don't know any Asian lawyers except for like, um because she's pretty much like written some articles that we had to [00:10:30] read for law and stuff, and, um, and the another thing that I want to if I end up hating, Really not wanting to do law because it's really stressful is speech language therapy, which is related to linguistics. And, um, when I first saw that, I thought, Oh, this is something I really want to do I This is this is honestly, like maybe it's my calling. But then I look into it and I thought, Oh, maybe I won't fit in Because speech language therapists are [00:11:00] like it's it's quite a an anomaly that there are about 97% women. And I feel like, Oh, well, I mean, obviously I can do it because, you know, it's not like they're not hiring men. In fact, it's like it's the same with doctors where there's not enough women. Um, they need more representation from every field, But then I feel like, Oh, but is there some expectation that I don't do that now, but I really want [00:11:30] to, and it looks really fun. Well, not fun. It's a little bit depressing, but it feels like something that I'd want to, you know, devote my life towards um and you know, representation is important because you have to you have to see someone to aspire to because we, you know, child Children base their lives around role models, whether it's mom or dad or, um, a superhero or someone they see on TV or their teacher. And if there's no one out there to identify [00:12:00] with or someone out there that you can sort of think, Oh, I'm going to be them one day. Then I think you feel put off from from doing something so not a whole lot of gay Asian representation. And a lot of things really do. Would you feel like there's much or any gay Asian representation with an LGBT kind of media or whatever? I think slowly, it's getting better. Um, there's slowly becoming more representation, and I think [00:12:30] that's because, um, in Asian in a in, um, the Asian population, it's becoming more acceptable to actually be LGBT and especially in in Asia itself, like it's starting to open up. And you're starting to see actual news about, um uh, visibility in Asia with within LGBT. Um, again, though the especially with with gay men, [00:13:00] there's a lot of quite negative, um, association on, um, like connotations or just a negative experience is what I'm trying to say with being Asian as a gay man, and it's It's so silly because it's literally like on Grind. And, um, I don't want to say all the other ones because they know they'll be really revealing that I go on all of them. But sometimes I feel [00:13:30] like that's such a silly problem because that's that's just sex. And it's like attraction. But then well, does that How how much of an influence does that have on how much of an influence does that have on me wanting to become a lawyer? Um, although I have I have My mother's friend told me that lawyers get hired because they're pretty because he can't be ugly. And in court, I was just like, Oh, oops, [00:14:00] yeah, um, But maybe maybe that's true. I mean, how how often do you see people who aren't ridiculously attractive and have heavy makeup on TV as lawyers? So I'm making I'm making like this expression. So yeah, I guess it's tricky because you know what's on. What's on TV isn't or doesn't, you know, represent what is happening in society, And I guess that's the power of representation that it can show, you [00:14:30] know, a whole bunch of stuff that isn't necessarily going on because I guess if you just thought about society from the TV, then there's only able bodied pretty people who live in nice apartments or whatever. But, um, you mentioned I want to go back to you mentioned, um, increasing kind of representation of gay Asian peoples and how that's impacting. At least I guess Asian society and making it more acceptable to be gay or queer or whatever. Would you say that had an impact on your family [00:15:00] and how they, you know, relate to you? And I think it definitely has, um, the only person that I actually came out to was my mother. And that was because, um one day she was like, Why? Why are you why are you doing Why are you why are you like searching up these articles online? And I'm like, Well, I don't know. And then yeah, and then I was like, Well, is it a problem if I am gay? And then I cried and then she was like, Oh, stop [00:15:30] it. And then, um, you know, she was like, Oh, you know, it's a phase and and I was like, Well, no it's not. And she was like, Have you Have you tried liking girls? And I'm like, No, I don't think that's how it works. Mum, you have to try. How old were you when you when you were looking at the articles and 17? No, it was just Oh, it was like I was looking up. Um, I was just, like, looking at news articles and stuff like that, but, um, yeah, that's when she asked me. [00:16:00] And that's when I count to her. And she was She's totally, like, supportive of it. But obviously, you know, with there's always these anxieties and she sort of treats me as like, um, like the pure daughter now, so I can't go on any dates and stuff. Yours is a bit weird, but oh, well, um, yeah, but, um, the funny thing is, she she ended up talking to the the members of my like, my extended [00:16:30] family, um, the the members who she knew would be supportive. So my cousins and her friends, um, like her high school friends, um, surprisingly, most of them are not surprising. I mean, like, they they have been supportive because I think that is the trend that younger people will have more, um, knowledge and acceptance of this in Asia. Um, but she didn't tell anyone over the age of 30 38. And [00:17:00] then I think, Well, OK, that's I guess that's fine. But does that make me? Does that make me like, Does that? Is that hiding something from my family? Does that make me sort of outcast from my own family? I So I have to sort of wonder, because sometimes my mom tells you you can just not tell them. You just you don't have to tell anyone. But then what is I? I feel like I. I feel personally that I am hiding something from them. If they [00:17:30] don't know fully. Um and even, you know, it's not like it's a topic that's completely relevant to I don't know if a job interview or anything like that. But eventually something like that's gonna come up. And, you know, every time someone finds out that I'm gay, then immediately you know its questions come up. But I'm you know, I'm fine with people asking questions. But sometimes I wonder. Well, [00:18:00] you know all these things, don't you? You have other gay friends. Why do you need to keep asking? And you know it's not. It's not something that annoys me terribly, but I feel like I feel like it's something that I It's something that has a an inkling of uncomfortableness. That's what that's what it is, that kind of con continue coming out and having to field a whole lot of questions or their [00:18:30] assumptions. It's exactly the same thing as Where do you come from? It's like, Well, it's a perfectly innocuous question, and I can just answer it like I'm from Hong Kong to talk about where where I was born. But then it was like, Well, we're not talking about that. We're talking about how to how to, um I don't know, Bake slice. Yeah, that's the thing, like with lots of labels that the people you know who who gets the label and [00:19:00] who has to declare their labels, you know, And so it's kind of like when you get asked where you're from, I guess if you're in New Zealand and you look, you probably aren't going to get asked that or if you do that, get asked that they're literally wanting to know whether you come from Auckland or Hamilton, and I think that's the other thing about you know, questions with being gay. You don't usually say, Are you straight or what's What's that like for you? Or when did you know your parents? You know, So it's kind of who the owner sits on to have to explain [00:19:30] or declare those labels. So what would you say? Like apart from all those documents, what would you say? The difference between maybe some of your experiences and say, um with other people who wouldn't be part of so many minorities in so many ways? Like, I think that I'm kind of I don't want to be one of those people who, like talk about what I study in the university, and I've tried to apply it to real world knowledge, even though I'm like a second year. But honestly, I think it's [00:20:00] to do with marked, which is a concept I think in. I'm not sure I know it's a concept in linguistics, but it's probably a concept in just like social science, where one there's a marked and unmarked um, thing. So the marked one is the unusual one, so OK, this is this is a pretty sexist example. But this is what my lecturer said. If you say I'm a nurse, then the marked example is a male nurse, and the unmarked example is a female nurse. Um, and that's simply because of stereotypes. But also, I guess, because [00:20:30] of, um, representation. Um, and that's the difference where I think you know these these because I, I think you can reduce it down to the same way that linguistics is reduced down into, like a science. And it's a fact that we are the marked like, I am a marked person. I'm not the majority. I'm not, um, and straight, Um and but then [00:21:00] again, in other ways, I'm But you know, you have to also consider that in other ways I can be unmarked. If I'm in Hong Kong, then you know I am the majority. But also I'm I'm tall. So thank you. Because, yeah, one time in Shanghai, the stranger in the shop, she just came up to my family and said, Look how tall and I didn't know what they were talking about. And my auntie said All these strangers are looking at you, and I'm like [00:21:30] Oh, oops. Sorry. Um, no. But that's that's completely irrelevant for now, Um, yeah, and that that's that's what we that's what it is. It's a norm. And there's an other, um, and what can we do about that? Well, I don't know. So would you say, I guess, Yeah. When I hear talking about the concept of marked and unmarked, it's like, I guess, dominant culture or default [00:22:00] settings, you know? So we assume everybody is able bodied unless that we know we see a wheelchair or they tell us that they're disabled or we assume, you know, And I guess that's maybe how grinder works that you assume to be this, that and the other. And if you're not, you have to say I'm more I'm Asian or I'm fat or I'm HIV positive or whatever. Um, so would you like, How do you, you know, navigate the pressures to assimilate into majority culture? Or do you feel like this? There is pressure to [00:22:30] assimilate into majority culture. I think that when I was a child that when I was little, there definitely was a pressure to assimilate. Um, and it started off with language where I had to learn English, and I learned it quite quickly. Like I ended up picking it up because I was, like, four years old. So I ended up speaking English quite well by the time I was five years old. Um, like, that was it became sort of like my mother tongue. Um, and then it just sort of so roll on for that from that [00:23:00] I grew up in which is a pretty, like Asian suburb. But then again, I went to a school where, um I was the only Asian person when I first went there because it was the nineties or not the nineties. Actually, it was the early two thousands. Um, eventually, there were a few more Asian people. And then I went to Auckland Grammar School, which was about I think it was actually majority Asian. I'm pretty sure it was, um, but then we still spoke English. There were groups that spoke different languages. [00:23:30] And in that school, um, it turned to be that, um, people stuck into groups. Um, based on what culture you identified with. And I think the pressure to assimilate lessened. Um, once we saw so much more diversity, but, uh, in in high school. I mean, um, but at the same time, what do we assimilate? And then there's, [00:24:00] like, different ways of assimilating into things. Um, then I had to assimilate into my own group. But, um, you know, is that just is that just developing your own personality, then? So some people say fake it till you make it. And I think that's something to do with assimilation. So if, for example, if it's not a visible, um, identifying factor like being gay Although my voice sort of goes away, I think, um, then you don't have [00:24:30] to say and that's what my mom says. Don't say that you're gay if you're trying to get a job, because, you know there are going to be people who don't agree with, um, you know, with what I am who don't like it. Um, but is that is that honest? Just because I'm trying to benefit myself like I'm trying to fake it till I make it. Is that something that we should be doing? Um, like, I guess maybe you could fake it to make it until you're at the top [00:25:00] and then you say Ha ha sucked in But wouldn't it be better if we just all try to aspire towards a society where everything is more or less neutral and no. One? Everyone has an equal opportunity? I know that's not realistic, but I think we have a like you can you can have a goal and it's good to have somewhere to go towards. Um, would you say there's any of those pressures to assimilate, um, within an LGBT [00:25:30] kind of society or communities? Honestly, I, I think there's the like, Oh, I don't want to be disrespectful once again but there is definitely in every society. There's a a pressure to assimilate. Um, you know, and I have to be honest in LGBT society, sometimes you have to assimilate to you have to assimilate to, um, sexualized gay men [00:26:00] hooking up. And I won't say I've ever done that. But like, I mean, that is something that you have to do that that's something you feel like you have to do. I mean, um, and but then there's other ways that you have to do as well, and I think that's also to do with labels. Sometimes you feel that you have to pack a label and stick with it. And, um, you know, this has been discussed over and over, but is is LGBT Is that simply just Is that really just, um what we decided is because there are other cultures where [00:26:30] that's not what it is that you can probably pick a whole bunch of different letters or have no letters at all. Um, and maybe I have to Maybe I. I feel like I'm like, subconsciously I'm assimilating into being what this society thinks being gay is And, well, I, I don't know how I feel about that. Might change next week. Yeah, probably [00:27:00] will. Um, yeah. I mean, assimilation is it's something that's that's so complicated, and you, you can't tell what when you're doing it, and you can't tell when when you are doing it. If it's good or not like, people will tell me. Oh, you know, this is the most annoying thing I hear from people you speak English so well, like you have such a like natural accent. I'm like, thank you, [00:27:30] and it's like, well, OK, but it's because I've lived here just because someone else has lived here less, um, for a shorter period than I haven't had a less accent or less attuned to cultural norms than I am. It doesn't make them any less worthy of being a New Zealander. I don't think. Yeah, it sounds like, um, a lot of that stuff is around. I don't know if inclusion is the right word, you know, [00:28:00] inclusion and exclusion or belonging and not belonging. But, like, if you're a certain way, you're part of the club, and then the least you are like, everybody else is You know, the further out you are out of the club or something, I think I. I agree with that. I think there's, um, part of that exclusion and inclusion. Um, thing especially, especially when you're just trying to socialise, Um, just starting to socialise. Um, in your younger years and, uh, for example, [00:28:30] like I don't think I've actually, if I have experienced bullying or exclusion or like direct people not liking me, I probably blocked it out or just like, forgotten about it. But, um, this the feeling that that happens is still there because you hear about it happening. And so it does. You can't pretend that it doesn't happen just because it doesn't happen to you. And there's always a fear that, um, you know, you're not People are not going to like you because you're gay or worse. People are gonna, like, commit [00:29:00] some kind of crime against you. And that's what you hear about on the news when you hear about, like, all these horrible things happening, where people are killing, killing everyone. And I can't go to these countries because, oh, so and so it's a danger for you. And then it's like I don't know how I feel about that. It's just upsetting, Um, and like in in high school, because I went to a boy's school, it was being being gay was not [00:29:30] talked about so much until, like, the very last year where, um, people were a bit more mature and were actually able to accept it. Um, and the the main thing that I felt was uncomfortable was that a lot of the time people did feel like if if the people who knew that I was gay sometimes would feel uncomfortable around me like I was hitting on them, even though they were really ugly, I'm just joking. Yeah, [00:30:00] Even though I wasn't attracted to them. Not sure. PC way of playing it. I'm sorry. Um, yeah. I just think that if you know II, I I'm I have a lot of female friends. I don't feel uncomfortable around them. Why should you feel uncomfortable around me? And like, uh, I have not rambling on about this, but, you know, because of that stereotype that [00:30:30] you know, if you're a gay male, then you're just hitting on everyone and you all you want to do is get in bed with the next person you see, and you know, that's that's not it's not true. And it's, um it's a stereotype that even though we know it's no, it's bad and it's not true. It's something that you have to. There's something that's just ingrained in us. Um, you know, that's a lot like a lot of things where things are just a lot of stereotypes are just been going. You can't get rid of them, no matter [00:31:00] how hard you try it only, and it takes a lot of work to get rid of preconceptions. Um, and that's going back to labels where it's it's hard to get out of that system of labelling people. Um, yeah. Ask another question. I'm just wrapping up. Now. Is there anything else that you want to talk about that we haven't covered? I think that's pretty much all. So we'll just end if you could tell us just a little bit [00:31:30] about what equation is. OK, Cool. Well, occasion is a social support group that started up last year. Um, I think it was during the Pride Festival. Um, during Pride Month. It was it came up over a event that was to discuss, um, people of Asian descent in in the LGBT community. It gives you a space for for Asian queer people to [00:32:00] voice, um, opinions eat fried chicken and just sort of socialise. Really? Um, you know, once again, Asian queer people still, you know, it's the reality that we are probably less visible. And maybe maybe it's less likely that we're able to meet, um, other people who are like us. So it's just a way to, um, you know, just gained the visibility [00:32:30] and, um yeah, eat fried chicken. Really? Hey, Great. Thank you very much for your time. Danny. That's all right.
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