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So my name's Andy. I'm 16. Um, I identify as gender queer. Um, I suppose being a minority, I am being being gender queer. I suppose being a minority in a way within the queer community. Like, not for the fitting with the gender binary. Um, I'm a minority also, because I am Christian and not many queer people, uh, today really, I suppose, identify with traditional spirituality, such as, like, Western spirituality, like Christianity. Um, And also, um, I identify [00:00:30] as a libertarian, so I as well as being gender queer and a Christian, I advocate for personal, economic and social liberty. Um, and I suppose I fit outside the usual, like the stereotypical political views of a queer person. So you mentioned gender Queer. What? What does that mean to you? Um so basically means Well, I suppose I don't put a really specific type, light specific term or a description on it, but it's really just not identifying as a guy or a [00:01:00] girl. So when I basically started to question my gender, I thought I thought of being when I when I was grouped as a guy or a girl, I thought, whether I actually fit in and I didn't felt felt as if I fit fit, like as as if I fitted in, um, to me gender queer. More specifically, kind of means identifying between guy and girl. So if you imagine gender is like a spectrum like a long line and masculinity on one end and femininity on the other end, I feel like kind of a 50 50 mix of the two. Like both [00:01:30] I like, I might think more masculine. And I might kind of act a bit more masculine in some ways, but they both feel equally significant. So kind of Yeah, kind of like a balance to me. And what about libertarianism? What does that mean to you? Um, So I suppose I suppose libertarian meaning something to you, in a way is a bit hard, because, um, libertarianism is a bit Amoral in a way, because it allows people to have their own morals within within freedom. Can you quickly define libertarianism for me? So libertarianism. Um, I suppose very broad libertarianism basically [00:02:00] believes in smaller government and individual freedom. So, basically your freedom to do what you want with your life being within, um, social life. So being able to marry who you want being able to, I don't know. Sleep with who You want to be able to practise whatever religion you want or beliefs. And on the economic side, it's being able to keep your own money, being able to start up a business if you want to, without government interference and basically believing in free markets. If it if it's right for right libertarianism which II I identify with. Yeah. So how have people within the broader [00:02:30] queer community, um, reacted to your minority status? Um um, with regards to any of these three ideas, Yeah. So I suppose within the queer community, um, being gender queer has gained a bit, has gained a bit more awareness, and a lot of people know know better how to react to it, and it can accept it. And many people have been really, really good at accepting my pronouns, Which are they? And, um, what does that mean? So basically pronouns, um, [00:03:00] are I suppose, titles that you titles that you could use for for yourself that someone's referring to in place of your name. So say if someone was saying, Oh, Andy went to the park the other day. Um, instead of saying he went to the park or she went to the park, one would say for me, they went to the park. So yeah, pronouns are basically, like a title in in place of a name and being in in the in the queer community, people have reacted pretty well to it, um, to my gender identity, Uh, religiously, um, sometimes has been a bit of a challenge, [00:03:30] because within Christianity, there are lots of mixed perspectives on sexuality and gender. Um, so some people have asked me lots of questions. Um, about sexuality. Um, some people have kind of, um criticised me for it and thought that my views were, um um they thought they were a bit too traditional. Um, are you thinking are you talking about people within the queer community reactions to your religion or the other way around? Yeah, to my religion, Um, or saying that my [00:04:00] views are a bit, um, I don't know, just a bit. Maybe puritanical. I suppose it's a bit hard to describe, Um, and in terms of to my political views, um, a lot of a lot of queer people are really, really open to politics, which is really great. Um, a lot of people have questioned me, and it's really, really good, and a lot of people have taken it, I suppose, as a challenge to reconsider what freedom means to them and what government means to them. So a lot of people kind of reacted with curiosity. But I've also got a bit of criticism [00:04:30] because generally, um, queer people have been on the left side of politics because, um, Socialists or worker based parties or liberal parties have been the first to adopt Queer Rights. Pro queer right answers. But I suppose it's been a mix of curiosity and, um, also a bit of scepticism. Um, how have these other communities reacted to your being queer? So how have religious your religious communities accepted you queer? [00:05:00] I suppose, um, religious communities. It's It's kind of been a bit difficult, I suppose, Um, when you often encounter people who who are, um saying religious authority like, um, pastors or ministers or bishops or whatever. A lot of them kind of don't know what to say, because things like being like being gender queer. More specifically, they're very, very new concepts to people and to in western culture, they've been very, very new. And they've been developing. Well, they they're not new. They're new as concepts. Um, known to people. [00:05:30] Um, a lot of people just don't know what to say. Kind of say OK, um, but they don't really know how to react to it. Um, what are some reactions you've gotten? Um, I suppose a lot of it is just saying, Oh, God loves you no matter what. Um, which is really, really good. But I don't really think that they look they haven't really looked past saying God loves you and they'd say that often. And they kind of haven't reviewed what they think gender is like in [00:06:00] society and whether gender is binary in relation to Christian views. And, um and, yeah, how How, um, like, um, how gender diversity relates to structures like marriage or relates to sexuality. And I think that's one thing that they haven't responded to. They've accepted me, which is really, really great. And I think it's a core to religion To Christian beliefs is acceptance. Um, but they haven't really ask how they could help me. Better accept loving me if you get me. It's a bit hard to explain, I suppose. [00:06:30] And what about, um, the communities of people that are libertarian? Um, are they normally more accepting or less of your queer identity? I say more accepting, but in a different way. Um, traditionally, I was I was actually a socialist when I got into politics at first, and a lot of socialists really looked at me and saying, Oh, that's really, really empowering and it's really, really great. Um, and you know, society could do better to accept you, but libertarianism I suppose there's an aspect of really [00:07:00] Oh, that's great. Um, I'm not going to infringe on your freedom to do what you want for your life. And, um, libertarianism is really, really diverse because it's a whole group of people who basically they have been marginalised by government or oppressed by government and feel like they should be able to do what they want. So while there have been questions about my identity, which I've been able to explain, and they've been very, very open about, um, they're really allowed, I suppose they've really said you you should be able to do what you want, and that's really? The core of libertarian attitude is leaving. People do what they want with their life. So if they can achieve their higher purpose so [00:07:30] they've been cool. How has, um, how has your school experience been? Uh, coming out as gender clearer. Um, my school has been very, very good, I think, um, I worked. So when I did, when I did come out, um, I there was quite a bit of support in terms of my school community. Um, a lot of people had a lot of questions, but I managed to explain them out, and a lot of them were accepting. There are still some people who kind of can't accept my pronouns, but I suppose you can always work on that, [00:08:00] Um, in terms of the school as a i suppose, structure of teachers and boards and everything. They've been very, very good. Um, we're one of the only schools which have actually which have actually set out to try and develop a transgender policy, an intersex policy, which ables to, um, incorporate students. And, like a which, um, aims to better help um, trans people at school. So they want so basically the policy that I've been pushing for along with another trans student is to have better, um, bathroom access, [00:08:30] Um, less, less binary structures when referring to students in class. Um, better, um, gender and sexuality, education and sex education. Um, and also for, um, better, um, like more flexible, um, structures around sports competitions, at least in that aspect. So they've been very, very good. Very, very open. What age were you when you first started questioning your gender? Um, I don't know. It's [00:09:00] it. It's kind of hard to find in a way. Um, before I was, I was just, um I was just out as, um a male who was gay. But at the same time, I was questioning, um, how masculine I felt and whether whether a male is really a good title for me, because I feel my feminine side is quite significant to me, and it's quite it means quite a bit to me. So I suppose in that respect, I started questioning my gender identity like that when I was 14, Um, and and thinking, Oh, am I actually more feminine, feminine? This and oh, I'm [00:09:30] actually quite different to all the other. Like all the other boys. But when I actually thought Wait, this isn't actually a good title for me, I suppose. 15 or maybe even this year. So 16. And what was that process? Like, uh, for you? Um, it's a bit weird. Um, I didn't really know anyone who was gender queer. I knew people who were, um, binary trends. And they were really, really good. But a lot of it kind of involved just going online and watching videos, and, I don't know, it [00:10:00] was quite weird. Just I managed to just talk with someone online about this, and they were really, really good at supporting me with it. And they kind of talked to me more about, like, what gender identity meant to them and what it meant to be gender queer and kind of. By talking with people, I managed to build up the confidence space to say, Hey, I think I might be gender queer and yeah, it's like that. What other sources of support do you have? I don't know. It's kind of been very much based around, like, just by myself. Really. A lot of it. [00:10:30] Um, I've got friends who've been really, really supportive once have come out. Um, but in terms of giving me advice, I suppose, um, they kind of were disabled because I mainly can hang out with, um, mainly hang out with cisgender people. Um, but in terms of helping me out, if I've had, um, crap given to me by the people, they've been really, really good on that aspect. How do you think the the fact that you fit into these other minorities has aided or hindered the coming [00:11:00] out process for you? Um, I, I don't know. I think I think being gender queer has kind of made me realise some, like, for for politics. It kind of helped me realise, um, kind of kind of, I suppose radicalised me a bit more as kind of realised how, like, um, some of the some of the ways that queer people suffer under a governmental system And, um, I suppose being religious, [00:11:30] it's, I don't know, with being religious, it's kind of made me it. It's kind of made me like kind of helped me deepen my faith because it's kind of made me question about structures around me, and it's kind of given me some time to reflect on my relationship with God. A. So yeah, it's It's kind of been interesting. Yeah. Why do you think there is so much tension between the religious and queer communities? Um, it's it's It's very, very hard to explain. I suppose, [00:12:00] Um, I think the problem is that there are a lot of there isn't really much questioning of cultural context in the Bible, So I suppose it's a bit of theology here. Um, when a lot of people say, for example, the religious community, the marriage between a man and a woman, they don't analyse, um, marriage much in the Bible. They kind of they they do tell you some quotes which I can accept about marriage, but they don't really review it, um, in its cultural context. And I think one thing which is which I think needs to be a lot of research into in terms [00:12:30] of religious communities is, um, how the Bible fits in today's world. And, um, how, for example, letters of porn, which mainly talks about gender and sexuality. If you went to where, um what what like, um, what the cultural context really means today? So I think what would really, really help. Help is if, um, if religious communities did a lot of research or did a lot of thinking and praying about what the Bible means today and how it fits in with cultural context and whether, like, um, [00:13:00] like it did from the New Testament the old from the Old Testament to the New Testament, where the law changed, whether the law changes today and about whether the principles of the Bible can be adjusted or whether they mean different things today. So I think it will be a really, really good point for the religious community in terms of the queer community. And I think although there have been some really, really crappy experiences such as disbelief in people's sexuality and who they and them being, who they really are, um, there also needs. I think there also needs to be a little bit of, um, understanding [00:13:30] that religious people, um, although very, very true to their principles do all in the name of love and that their ideas and their faith and certain ideas are to help people out. So while they need to be some help on the religious side, I think, um, there's a There's a better opportunity for queer people to try and understand people from religious perspectives. Are there any, um, particular passages of the Bible or anything that resonated with you as you were trying to come out or come to terms with your identity? Um, I suppose [00:14:00] I go for the classic. John 3 16 is one. what's John 3. 16? Um oh, gosh. Maybe tell me here, Um oh, for God to love the world that he gave his only forgotten son. Um Oh, my gosh. How have I forgot this? Oh, that's terrible. I know. Not the message. The message of the text. Um, well, the message is basically that God loves you no matter what and that God is always with you. So, um, God is pre in some sort of salvation and [00:14:30] that those who are precent are always going to be with them and that, um, God loves individuals. And although it may seem in today's world that you may be judged by God and that you may be, um, I don't know, judged by the people, God is always walking with you. Um, so, yeah, it's pretty sad. I forgot that. But another one if you actually want to look at Gina's place, Um, there's a really interesting there's some really interesting text and I can't quote it off off my heart. Unfortunately, um, in Matthew eight and Matthew is really interesting because it looks into the place of [00:15:00] I think they say it. Um, weird word, um, and their place in society back in the, um back in the Judao Christian world. And Jesus actually does say that EU may not fit within, um, the traditional structure of sexuality and the traditional structure of family. But they are still welcome to God. And it's a really interesting thing because you can adjust. I think that's very, very applicable to gender. Um, there's been a lot of talk by liberal Christian about this, [00:15:30] um, that what he says about EU there can be applicable to transgender people and to intersex people that although they may not fit into the traditional societal structure, they are really welcome in churches. And welcome to God. What about, um, the have people in the libertarian communities been accepting of your religion? Is that, uh, a fundamental aspect of libertarianism? Um, I. I would say there's there's often a bit of there aren't people who are always, [00:16:00] I suppose, a bit of a no true Scotland thing. But there are some people who don't really take on the tolerance aspect of libertarianism. A lot of people see, um, a lot of people take on a very, I suppose, always quite a Marxist analysis that religion is used, um, used by the government, um, to help prop up the ruling class. And there are a lot of people who see religious views as oppressive. Um, so there's been a lot of acceptance on one front of my religious views, I suppose. But on the other, there's been a lot of scepticism, and I've been told many times that my religious views are shielding me from, [00:16:30] um, reasoning more and finding out more about myself. Um, how does it feel when people tell you that a bit condescending? I think, um, and I want to say condescending in a way that kind of makes me sound arrogant, but it sounds a bit condescending because they don't really, um they don't really sympathise with my experiences, and they don't really realise that I might have might have thought it through a bit or I don't know. Or maybe that I'm I. I come with my views because of different experiences to them. [00:17:00] If you had a message, um, that you could give out to young queer, maybe religious people. What would you say? Um, I suppose this is going to be from quite a Christian perspective, I suppose. But a lot of it is that God does love you and that Christ did die for your sins. So in many areas of your life, like everyone, you will come across sin. But Jesus did die for your salvation. And if you do believe in him, you won't actually become astray from him. And that is, actually, um, what [00:17:30] is written by Paul in in Romans is that no matter what your journey may be, God is always with you and that, um, that your gender identity or your sexual sexual orientation or your sex will not actually prevent you from having a full, um, abundant life in Christ. Um, so basically keep having faith. Um, keep having faith and keep pushing. Keep pushing for a great life with God and keep praying. And if you're if you're worried about your religious community, don't be afraid to try different ones. Move between churches. [00:18:00] I'd move between churches a lot and find out what Christ means to different people and find a church which should be applicable to you. What about, um what about a message to people who are in more mainstream religious communities with regards to accepting younger, queer people? Um, sorry. Could you give me an example of Sorry. Um, so maybe outside of queer communities. So people who are not necessarily queer [00:18:30] but are religious and ways that they can make their religious spaces more accepting towards young queer people. Um, I think discuss with people, but also discuss and listen a lot. Um, listen with listen, with an open mind and open ears. And if you when you listen to people's experiences, try and, um try and apply it to your religious beliefs and to things that you've heard religiously, Um, I suppose don't try to undermine people's experiences. [00:19:00] Um, And don't try to, um, think that you, I suppose, know more than other people because the more you listen to other people, the more you can learn about yourself. I think, um, so basically, yeah, listen with opening an open mind. Um, And when you hear that, try and apply it to yourself in your own journey. So then you can understand them. Do you think that that's something that might apply to, um, more than just more than just that scenario? Like, um, more than just with regards to queer people, [00:19:30] but with regards to all sorts of minorities? I think so, Yeah. Um, I think it that certainly applies to to other people, like, I'll just give one. Just give one example. So, for example, to people who might have a, um, who might be having, um, problems with mental health? Like if you if you try and understand their problems or try to understand that their difficulties with life, then you can really help them more and have a better relationship with them. But just by understanding. So I suppose, the message of understanding and tolerance, it's really applicable to all life, and it's really something that can make the world better. [00:20:00] I think what other, um, things do you think could make the world a better place with regards to, um uh, helping young people come to terms with their identity Arms. I think it's under. Yeah, mainly understanding. I think, Um, I think I think And I think it comes from just the social situations and with making and with, um, education, for example. Um, yeah, I think, Yeah, I think it's just mainly about [00:20:30] understanding. And if someone, for example, if someone wants to use these pronouns, you should disrespect it. I think and rather than say, if you have a belief that I know they pronouns aren't grammatically correct, even though you may believe that they're grammatically that they're not grammatically correct that that those pronouns aren't grammatically correct, you should still use them and respect of the person. So I think respecting intolerance and putting the other person before you is always a really, really good um a really, really good principle to put in situations. And really, if more people just did that and use it for themselves, [00:21:00] Um, I think the world would be a lot better and there'd be a lot more harmony, intolerance and everything. What do you do? Um, when people refuse to use your pronouns? Um, I kind of explained it out, I suppose. Like like what I just explained before, Um oh, it's always difficult is that hurtful? It is hurtful. It is very hurtful because basically what you do then is you kind of ignore, although you may have a problem with it, say, on a grammatical front. You're kind of ignoring the person's [00:21:30] identity and you're not really trying to compromise or anything. And I think compromising for the sake of someone. Just deal. If if you're just going to If you just adjust someone's pronouns, which is a very, very, very small step, then you make a life a hell of a lot easier for the other person. And that's one of the things I suppose. I try to communicate, and it's just really little steps. It's not a massive thing. It's little sacrifice for a whole lot of gain for the other person it makes. Yeah, it just makes life easier. In what ways do you [00:22:00] deal with, like the homophobia you face, or any any impression for being part of any identity group? Um, I suppose I call them my friends. Um, I talk to my friends about it. Um I kind of I I try to reason with them and I I First off, I tried to reason with them and kind of try to, I suppose, make some counter points to that or make them question themselves because I think it's always first off. It's good to kind [00:22:30] of, um, try to influence the other person and stop the stop those views if it doesn't hurt someone else. But after that, I'd call on my friends for some support, or I try to get them to back me up and say, No, that's not cool. Um, and after that, I think for things myself, if it's like private and it's in, like my personal life, Um, I would just chill out. I think, and things like music are really, really good for that, I think. And just making some time for yourself. Drinking coffee at midnight Espresso helps. Have, uh, your family been a supportive [00:23:00] for you? Yeah, they've been pretty supportive. Um, they've been pretty understanding, and I think although I suppose for the 1st 1st couple of days or the first week, they kind of didn't really didn't really understand it, and they kind of made it a point to communicate that they didn't understand it. Um but I suppose after a bit they did. They did adjust and start using my name. They could start using my pronouns, which I'd really, really prefer. Because, like I said, it's not a massive adjustment to make. Um, but they've been pretty good. Yeah. What do you think [00:23:30] it would it would say to you? What? What message would it give you if your parents did start accepting and using your pronouns? Um, it would kind of it would it would. It would give me the I suppose message that they accept my gender identity, recognise that it's really important to me and, um, see that it's not like it's It's not a massive thing to do, and it just makes me It just makes me feel a whole lot better. It would just It would just kind of be accepting me. Who is who I am, rather than simply like going along with my gender identity, recognising [00:24:00] that I'm not a guy or a girl and using my name. If you reach their next step, then you kind of round it all off, and you kind of make the consistent statement. I suppose, Um, did your parents bring up religious? Or is that something that's developed later on in your life. They are religious. But I, I honestly don't think that was what brought me to religion, because I was I was brought up, Um, in an Anglican household, I went to an Anglican school, but it was actually in the Anglican school that I became [00:24:30] agnostic. Atheist? Briefly. Um, I suppose it was mainly when I started questioning my gender identity and sexuality that I actually started to become a Christian. It's quite funny, actually. That was at the same time. Maybe it was I don't know. Um but it was at that time when I suppose I started I. I faced a bit of hardship that I actually became a Christian myself and has, um, having that, uh, shared spirituality with your parents been helpful through [00:25:00] throughout the coming out process? Um, yeah, it it has been I mean, I've had I've had instances where there have been, um, some pastors who have been a bit hostile to accepting me for my sexuality. And my parents have said no, that's completely not OK. And they've been very, very good on that that aspect And, um, it's kind of helped them understand me a bit more, and I've used I've used Christianity to kind of communicate that a bit with them, but I don't know, it's kind [00:25:30] of just been. It's just been on a normal relationship basis that we've kind of that I've kind of came in, that I kind of came out to them and stuff. How did your parents react when you came out to them? They were all cool. Yeah, basically, they they always love me and everything, which is really, really, really good. It's kind of it's It's central to any any relationship. I think, Well, any any healthy relationship that the person accept you for, who they are, who you are. Um, so they were really, really good with that. Sounds to me like a, um, a message of unconditional [00:26:00] acceptance has been really helpful to you. Yeah, I can. I completely agree there. Would you say that that's a good thing to offer to those around us who might be going through similar hardship? Absolutely. I think in any terms, in any in any situation of hardship, um, in any situation of uncertainty, I think it's the best message you can give to someone is unconditional love. Yeah.
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