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We're going to be talking about realities of gender beyond the binary today. Um, we've got three fabulous panellists to talk to that I'm going to read the introductions that they have provided. So Alex is an intersex firm, non binary trans person. She's a nursing student and facilitates Queer Trans Fight Club. Yeah, Conrad and Lasha over here House from where he spent his formative years being confused about which were boys and which were girl sorry, which were boys and which were girls toys. [00:00:30] I was thinking, Wow, what an interesting a naturalised Wellington. And he runs a modest Web development business and performs as the luscious LAIA Red Fair. He's recently announced his gender queerness, but those close to him or her knew all along and to my immediate right is an out queer identified non-binary, intersex change agent, artist, therapist, media commentator, workplace support person and trauma and disaster specialist. [00:01:00] So we are going, they are going to introduce themselves to you, and then we're going to have a wonderful flowing conversation. We're just asked. This is being recorded for people that do not want to be recorded. Can you flag that before you start to comment or make a question that would be very helpful for our dude here. OK, when we go, he's been pissed. I can go first, [00:01:30] I guess. Um, so, yeah, I grew up in, um oh, I can I put my the Globe Theatre voice on. I grew up in I was born in 1977 and, um, my parents were kind of hippies, which was kind of lucky, but in this really kind of, they were school teacher way. And I always wanted to get into my mom's makeup when I was a kid, and we had this great dress up box that had mum's clothes in it. And there was this, like, [00:02:00] sunflower dress that I always really liked. And I always really wanted a Barbie dream house. But I also really wanted to play with Lego and programme computers and ride my bike. Um, I've never really and I I and, you know, like when you have role models, I imprinted on all of the wrong role models. So basically, my role role models were Claire Huxtable. Alison mo. Um, yeah, and I got a lot of grief at school. Um, like we probably all did because [00:02:30] I was a bit of a girl. Um, but then I was It was complicated. And I spent a lot of money on therapists over the years so that you guys don't have to listen to all of the things that I've talked about. Um, I've been doing drag pretty much since I was a kid. Um, and recently well, I think I've known this for a while. I submitted a photo of Lasha, which is my drag name to this gender blog and kind of wrote this [00:03:00] thing. And it was the first time I'd really admitted it that I'm like a drag queen. But I think this gender stuff goes a little bit deeper than just wanting to be an entertainer. It's the truth. And every morning I feel like I make a decision to present as a man, and I don't think everyone in the world that's a really conscious decision. And so I get up and I'm like, OK, well, I'm running my little business. It's pretty straight. I better just wear man clothes and no [00:03:30] makeup, or I'd be like, OK, well, maybe I'm gonna be a girl today because, you know I can and my other office buddies don't have anyone coming in that's gonna freak out. Um, yeah, and it's not always easy. Um, in the eighties was a damaged town. It was extremely damaged by colonisation. I can't even there aren't even enough tears to cry for what happened there. Um, 25% [00:04:00] unemployment, domestic abuse, gambling, alcoholism. So my family was really safe and nurturing. But the minute I went down the end of our driveway, you had to look out because there were unchained dogs, wasted grown ups behaving inappropriately. Um, you know, me and my brothers got in lots of fights, and I've taken it with me, but, like, it's something I can never shake free. And so when I walk around Wellington, I'm always on high alert. [00:04:30] Who's going to be troubled? How can I get away? Am I gonna like staunch them out, or am I gonna run? You know, like this is always going through my head. And when I present my I am now, it's even more dangerous because I know that I don't even know why people react so badly. But they do, and I'm laughing. But it's not funny. And, um it's caused me a lot of anxiety over the years. Um, I take some medication that helps a little bit. Um, and I've been lucky [00:05:00] as well because I've got a brain. I was able to get an education. And the reason I'm self-employed is because I just can't work for people where I have to present as a man all of the time because it just makes my head explode. Um, and that's probably probably a good kind of introduction to my relationship with gender queerness. Although today I was like thinking maybe I could be bi gender. That would be a fun word there. There aren't even proper words, really. And, you know, [00:05:30] we're all just making it up as we go along. In fact, we might do this later. We called it the vocabulary void. So anyway, thanks, we I would like to go next, Right? I'll go next. Um, I'm I'm both nervous and excited, and it's interesting because I really get nervous, and I'm nervous today because I'm very clearly taking off my head [00:06:00] as a therapist and a professional person in the city. I'm not leaving it. It's part of who I am, but what I want to bring into this space today and try and create some safety is about something else, and this conference is called beyond the binary, and that's what we're going to be talking about and celebrating and tumbling with this afternoon. And so, um, for myself, I started this journey 25 years ago and and when I started, there was nothing. [00:06:30] The first images that I got of myself as an intersex person was reading a medical textbook, and it was important because it was the first time in my life that I had seen an image of myself, a reflection but pretty brutal way to introduce who you might be. Other naked people with black strips across their eyes. That's how I found. And so in that 25 years, I feel really excited that we have visibility and I'd wish this [00:07:00] slide show could have been playing because I wanted this celebration of diversity and those of us who are finding and being and maybe even today a little bit of having fun about being different in the celebration of that. So, you know, we we have less than an hour now, but certainly that's what I would like to bring to this. So bring to it heart. Um, bring to it, beauty, bring to it celebration. [00:07:30] But also what you've been talking about those tears because there's a lot of us that didn't get this far that haven't made it because it was just too hard. So yeah, that's who I am. I'm I'm here in my non-binary, um, celebration of all of who I am and talking about how I've got to this place and, yeah, I'm still a therapist, but it's upside down and just watching at the moment. [00:08:00] Um, that's a pretty It's pretty hard speaking after money because I think she's just done so much for so many people and is just such a wonderful person. And I just want to acknowledge that before I talk to myself. And it was great hearing a bit more about you, Conrad, I've only ever seen you in drag as a, you know, as an entertainer. So it's nice to hear you this stuff. Um, So, uh, I also wanna say that I am feeling [00:08:30] quite anxious today, So please bear with me if I'm not the best. Um, so for me. Um I guess. Yeah. So I said that I'm I'm intersex. I'm also, um, Trans And, um, in case anyone is unclear about that, those are separate things for me. They're, you know, interwoven. But for a lot of people, they are separate. Um and, um, so [00:09:00] I identify as non-binary. Um, but beyond that, I don't really have any labels for myself. I don't see myself as gender queer. Um, I thought for a little while that I might feel good with the term, which means, like, neutral. But again, I don't really feel like that's me either. Um, and it was, I suppose, for me coming to terms with my gender or finding my gender has been I don't think [00:09:30] I'll ever find it or, you know, describe it. But, I mean, that's part of the beauty of it for everybody, I think. But, um, So for me, um, I think I mean, as someone who's intersex and my particular type of body, Um, because not again. Not This isn't everyone's experience, but for me, I was quite obviously, um well, I I heard that people were talking about passing earlier. I have not really passed [00:10:00] since I was about 12 as, um, part of the binary. And so that's been an interesting experience for me. Um, it's been difficult dealing with some of the stuff that people put on you, but it's also I feel being quite useful for me in learning how to, like, not give a shit about what people say. Um and, um so even though I didn't present [00:10:30] as part of the binary for a very long time, I didn't actually really consider my gender very much until maybe like, three or four years ago. And, um, when I realised that I didn't identify as a woman and it was kind of a slow process for me going well, if I'm not a woman, then I must be a man. So that was kind of a silly leap, I guess. But I didn't know any better. And so from there, going well, actually, [00:11:00] I don't feel like that sits right with me and sort of find trying to find words for myself and trying to find sort of ways of being in my body. And I was thinking today how different it's been for me figuring out, um, what it is that I want out of my body because it's been quite pertinent for me recently. Um, going through, um, some issues with getting hormones and getting surgery and stuff like that. And just seeing [00:11:30] how much things have changed for me in terms of wanting, um, different things from my body over time and I think acknowledging, yes. So for me, my gender really has changed a lot. And what I want from my body and how my comfort levels with different parts of my body and what I want done to my body and what I want to do with my body has changed so much. And so I don't think I think that, um, [00:12:00] for me, it's not just fluidity within a spectrum within people. It's fluidity through time. That, I think, is quite an important thing to ignore. Um, so I guess. And would it be OK if I talk through some of the things that I thought was relevant for me? Just a couple of points that I wanted to bring to today. We've talked before about what we're doing. So the Yeah, that would be wonderful. Um, so [00:12:30] just just thoughts that I came up with that were relevant to me for what the what we're talking about today is beyond beyond the gender of binary. Um, and they are very specific to my thing. But anyway, so one of the things that I've noticed that in terms and again this is in terms of more in terms of, uh, transgender identity stuff for me is, um, I often get lumped in with trans masculine people and [00:13:00] which is weird for me because I don't actually identify with masculinity at all, and people might be looking at me and wondering how that is, but, um, yeah, presentation and how you feel are quite different things. Um, and also, I feel that the assumption that they can be trans masculinity and transfeminine for everyone is quite rooted in the idea that sex is a binary. And so you're moving from one thing to another thing, um, one discrete category to another [00:13:30] discrete category and that those I don't know, I find that quite difficult. So th that those terms, I guess if we're talking about vocabulary, those terms are kind of difficult for me. Um and I guess kind of linked in with that the binary assumptions that even within the queer community who I feel like we should know better. A lot of the time, I feel like we still assume that, you know, if somebody appears to be not [00:14:00] as gendered, we assume, assume that they are, um, still binary identified. Um, so even, for example, even my girlfriend, who is a butch woman People read her as a trans man that, like, there's no other option than like a feminine woman and a masculine man. And I find that really bizarre. Um, and that's within the cursing. That's not Yeah, and a little bit [00:14:30] linked in with what Conrad said about how non binary isn't just gender queer. It is things like bi gendered and and that often, um, we kind of I feel like there's this thing where, like, those things are conflated and that there are many types of non-binary identities out there. Mm. I'm sorry. Um, I have a point as well. [00:15:00] Um, so because I was just thought about the thing that I've just shared and my story, if spun in a certain way, can be real heavy. Our girlfriend grew up in the ghetto. It was real hard, you know, they just walking around town. That's all for real. But life's great as well. Um, and one of the things that I think I would like to see come out of this session is kind of some solutions. And I would like especially people younger than me or at a different part of their life, [00:15:30] to not have to go through the same silly bullshit that I went through. I think that's for me, a really thing that I'm quite excited about. Um, so I don't know. I always want a whiteboard. At this point. There is a white board. No, actually, I want to turn letters over, like in the sale of the century. Um, and it's funny that and I'll just put before I get into this. I just want to say, um, I'm also aware [00:16:00] that I think I've talked a lot about, um, My Lady self as being quite clothes and makeup, but it's deeper than that. It's about behaviours and attitudes as well. And I mean there's a whole, like sociology doctrine in this, about how different attitudes and behaviours are ascribed to men and women. I mean, the real naive take on it is like come together a nurturer, but it's way more complicated in a nuance like that. Um, and I know that, um, I don't subscribe [00:16:30] to all of the guys stuff or, Oh, God, it's not even words for it. It's so like broken in my mind. I try and make sense of how the world is, and I'm like, How does everyone else do this? I got me at a contracting gig dressed in my jeans and ironic hips, the T shirt because I do a lot of work in a design fraternity and I look around and I'll see other sis woman dress like me, and then I'll be like, Oh, so they can kind of we can dress same same, even though we're like different genders. [00:17:00] So just go with me here. And then I look at some of the account managers, this woman who dressed like drag queens, and I'm like if I turned up to office dress like you, there would be such a huge deal, and it's like so much power to just some bits of fabric. Um, and I know that when I try and sometimes talk to other people about these crazy ideas, I'm having. I just kind of get this, like, look. No, no, I took my medication. I totally did. It's got, like, the days [00:17:30] on it. I know. Look, See, Tuesday, I took it. Um, but anyway, what I wanted to do was if we could, like, maybe name some of our heroes, heroines or quero ones, people that were and just kind of shout it out in a crazy kind of way. So I'll start Hux the ball. Hey, surely Patty Smith. Yeah. Julia Saran. [00:18:00] Oh, dear lord. Mm. They meet the average and Captain Janeway from Star Trek. Oh, well, if we're talking sci-fi. Yeah, and one of the nice things about getting away from binary is is we're now in [00:18:30] a multidimensional, you know, limitless world that has no beginning and no end and endless possibilities. It's making my tummy feel upset. Motion sickness. Um, and along with the, um, the kind of solution stuff, it's just community is having people to look out for each other. So one of the things I really encourage people to do after this session is friend each other on Facebook, follow each [00:19:00] other on Twitter, get the email address, get the phone number because we're all we've got, you know? Um, yeah, really. We just got to look out for each other. Um, yeah. Like Conrad and I were talking about this and I was talking about, um, one of my friends in San Francisco. Those of you who have seen intersection where they've seen Suji. So Suji, when she was young, was part of the, um, street Mafia in San Francisco. And there was terrible [00:19:30] violence against the particularly the the the queer community, the non-standard community. And so the community decided they'd do something about it. And they were martial arts trained, and they used to walk around at night with, um the the team had handcuffs, and they had whistles. So if if if some bad shit was going down, you could blow your whistle and these guys would arrive and whoever was harassing people, they would throw them on [00:20:00] the ground and cuff them, and then march them into the nearest cop shot and just throw them in through the door so these people would arrive cuffed because the cops had to do something because you had somebody in handcuffs and they had to cut them out of them. They couldn't just not do anything. And it's like a story that's really beautiful. And and we've forgotten how to do that. We've forgotten, actually, that we're entitled to be safe in our communities and And how might we do that? Because in Wellington, [00:20:30] at the moment it's not very safe. It's not even safe, particularly during the day. And it's certainly not safe at night in lots of places. If you're presenting in a in a non binary way, Um, there's actually enough for everyone. I just count it. So So what I'm gonna do is make some noise. Yeah. Are you gonna hand them out? Yeah, I totally I think what I'm gonna do is say take one and pass it on. If you would like a special or OK, [00:21:00] how do you sort of just rip them off the top? They don't just go Look, I made too much noise. I need, I think, just wrapped them off the cardboard here. Beautiful. I know it was just a complete accident, like a total. [00:21:30] I worked for the film production company and they had their run around, so I was like, Can you go buy speedy whistles. Yeah. So maybe this is the, um, space to open it up and just start talking someone over here. You, um I just wanted to kind of talk about a conversation I was having at the pub [00:22:00] last week. Um, about a guy who, um he had a friend. Um, and he had met up with her for the first time in many years. And the last time he had met her, she had been Daddy, um and he didn't know how to deal with this concept. Um, he was He was older, He was in his fifties or something. And and it was it was a very unusual concept. And so instead of talking about that, I was talking about, you know, marriage quality. And it's like, Are you OK with the concept of the fact that [00:22:30] that two women can get married now or two men can get married now and he's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. It's like, OK, but 20 years ago, you couldn't deal with that because marriage was a thing where it was between a man and a woman, and that was how it was. It was an a MC, and they went together, and that was the only way of dealing with it. And now we've got this grade that wasn't there 20 years ago, where it used to be more years ago that you were a man and therefore you were only attracted to women, and that was the only way it could be. And now there is this [00:23:00] grey and we have to deal with that. And I think one of the best things about the last I'm gonna say 10 years. And I'm sure that everybody's gonna have a different number for this. That the the binaries and the grades that we accept within our community have have kind of started going up and up and up and up, and that the the space between what was assumed to be the only possibilities has grown massively. Um, and that's great. Like, that's the only way that we're gonna be getting to the place where [00:23:30] there is exceptions for people that don't feel they've got an A in, um and I don't really necessarily have any answers for the people that we for for those for those spaces that aren't there yet, But I just kind of an observation that those spaces have become much more common mostly by people working really fucking hard. Um, thank you. Thanks. Um, I would like to respond to that. Um, and I definitely agree with you, um, [00:24:00] that things are different than they were in the eighties, which is kind of as far back as I can remember. Um, however, I have noticed that just at the moment in our kind of pop culture is provided by the media giants of L A and a little bit England. It's pretty gendered at the moment, actually, pretty gendered Miley Cyrus is Miley Cyrus, and boys are boys and and I think back with like, longing to the like, heroin chic, [00:24:30] androgynous models of Calvin Klein's nineties campaigns or glam rock in the seventies. Um, but I don't know what it means. It's just an observation that yeah, that popular culture has become quite binary. Oh, and actually, the other thing, as well as Children's toys Oh, and oh, my God, it give me powerful rage. Really like pink, pink, blue, blue, blue, blue, blue. And I remember things in the, you know, kind of especially the late seventies early eighties. It was a bit more [00:25:00] kind of. And you know, Lego was for everyone. It didn't have to be pink Lego for girls, you know? Anyway, I don't know, just but it's like man yoghurt. I didn't know that yoghurt man yoghurt turned out I was like, Oh, OK, yoghurt. The, um, math mammoth food company. Their yoghurt is marketed as man yoghurt. It has on it, um, how to be a man. And it's manly [00:25:30] man that they extract it from I don't really want to know from From some glance, I can actually ask that a little bit because I've got a background in marketing and advertising there. Cooper, um, someone at the yoghurt company was looking at like like, this is what I think has happened. Someone at the yoghurt company was probably going How can we sell more yoghurt? Who's buying our yoghurt? Oh, wow. Yoghurt is the official food of ladies. We need to get cement to buy the yoghurt. And so a lot of that decision is like, it's the same with, um, like [00:26:00] cosmetics targeted at me. And they're like, Well, we should be selling this to everyone. The money to make here people and it's A. It's pretty sociopathic, actually. I'm not a big fan of the industry I work in. But, you know, my girlfriend got to pay the rent. I mean, I think it's interesting what you were saying. I read about the the fact that you can go to an event where women are wearing jeans and a t-shirt that are identical to the jeans and a t-shirt you're wearing. But then, in the office, [00:26:30] the accountant woman is basically in high fit and drag and something that you can't wear. And I mean, it goes all the way through to the point where Cosmopolitan magazine or whatever, like, I don't actually read it. But fashion magazines are selling boyfriend jeans for women, and so it's it's OK more for women to wear men's clothing, but it's not. The converse is not acceptable, and I think that's just really sad that women have [00:27:00] more freedom in pop culture to transgress the gender binary than men. I mean to be fair. Women have fought a long, hard battle through, you know, 1st and 2nd wave feminism like it's not like an accident, but anyway, I don't want to, like, keep talking and talking because I'm good at that other panellists. I wanna say that, um, the binary gender thing of products and media and all that stuff. That is why when there are surveys and they ask your agenda, I will never answer the survey. [00:27:30] I, I say, like, why are you asking my gender? Because that just accept it unless it's a product designed for for a certain genitals and they should be asking. But I think that's a problem. Um, and again, um, therapists sort of behaving well on the floor upside down. One of the disruptive things that's just happened in New Zealand and and the Transport Authority has got no idea what they've done. So one of the things that came out of the transgender [00:28:00] inquiry was the reality that, um, it's very difficult in this country for people to change markets. So now, in your licence, when you apply one of the things that you the categories that anybody it it's it was for. So um, the category is not to no, is it X? Is that the thing you're talking? No, no. It'll come [00:28:30] to you in the shower. It'll come to me in the shower, but anybody can apply for it. So when you go to, um, get your new driver's licence, you can apply for this category. It it's there for intersex people. But, um, it it it it It's anybody. If they want to, you can apply for it. This a good thing, Bad thing or just a thing. Oh, it's just a thing. And one of the things I thought would be hilariously funny would be just to start a movement [00:29:00] so that everybody does it, because suddenly then gender is meaningless. I have a question. Am I allowed to do that? Absolutely awesome. Um, and it kind of stems from that. So that, um, the fact that we don't, um, collect census information about sexuality or gender diversity? What did the people on this panel think about the two ticks campaign brain working and going back to early? It's undeterminate [00:29:30] so anybody can become undeterminate on their driver's licence, not non indeterminate. That's not a category in passport. It's an ex, but undeterminate. There's a legal category in New Zealand that was set up in the 19 fifties for Children who were born as intersex and and their desire to be good that transport people have hold it out of the fifties, which is [00:30:00] so funny. So yes, back to two ticks me. That's right. Um, I. I thought it was a good idea. I don't know, because I mean, I I'm pretty sure that it's well from what I've been because I'm a nursing student. I'm looking at this kind of thing, but from what I know, it's the census information that then gets used by the government to determine what they do with a lot of stuff like, especially in terms of health care. And I think that that's [00:30:30] an issue that's relevant for a lot of transgender and inter sex people. There's things to do with health care and measuring inequalities and that kind of thing, and there's a lot of inequalities in other areas as well that that just will become invisible unless they actually start to measure them or already are invisible. You know, the the two campaign is good as a disruptor, but it doesn't actually change anything, because what happens is the data input people then, um, gender [00:31:00] you off your name. So if you you have a normative male or female name, you'll be put down on the basis of your name, which again, I didn't know this when I changed my name. So I have money and no one knows how to gender money. And then they look at Bruce and they go, What? We've got this one. So I know from a census point of view that I'll be down as male. And it's a battle that, um, gays and lesbians have been fighting for a long time, nearly 30 years in New Zealand to include the [00:31:30] data on the census. And I remember being in a meeting probably three years ago, and we've been talking for nearly two hours and finally the boss. And there was this woman in black with a several $1000 worth of gold on here, and she stood there and she said, We're not going to change anything because it will corrupt the data. And it was just wonderful because the ring just burst into hysterical laughter and she didn't get it. She didn't actually understand that their data is already corrupt and [00:32:00] that in doing this we might actually start to uncorrupt the data. But that's their argument. That's why they don't want to change awesome. Correct the data. Um, I had a little bit of a tangent, but like a bit of a personal thing to share, and it's a little bit, um, a little bit came into my mind after going to being a good session, which was hilarious. Um, because I've been staying over with my aunt. Oh, my God, there's [00:32:30] such I'm a title. I will freely admit it. But there's and there's like, that worry about the height of a neighbor's tree. That's my auntie. Anyway, I was talking about, um because, you know, I'm like, uh, it's kind of so complicated even though, like on my own bi gender gender queer I identify as a gay man as well, because it's just Oh, God, I just love a big, hairy man. Ah, so much That's all I want. I'm not really clear on it. That's one area that I'm really clear. [00:33:00] Um, although I have had these, like non sexual romantic infatuations with, um Captain Jane Wade and Scully like, I'm kind of in love with them, but it's not in a sexy love way. It's in a I don't know something else. And so if I think about what I feel like. But I feel, you know, like, kind of guilty like, because I can really effectively pass this man like not it's not even I don't even get to try Big, tall, handsome guy as long as I don't You know, that's fine. [00:33:30] And I feel some guilt about that. And II I try and tread really respectfully when I'm dealing with the trans community. Um, and I'm surprised that I haven't had more A on the Internet about, um, having a beard and doing drag. Um, because there is. I have heard that some people feel like that's parodying the process of transition, which is not my intent at all. Um, but I just wanted to kind of say, You know, just say that these are things that that concern me sometimes. [00:34:00] Um, and I feel like it's a little bit like people were talking in the session before about being bisexual, and it's not been really obvious that they're queer, and that's, you know, that's an experience I have as well. It's not obvious that my gender is a little bit getting so There you go. I mean, I guess the reason I'm sharing it is because when I talk to people about the stuff, often they'll go, Oh ha, me, too. Why? Why do people not talk about the stuff? So there you go. [00:34:30] So coming back to another thing that, um, we started at the at the beginning and that's around languaging and the English language particularly, is, um, so bereft of anything outside the binary and and there's some exploring and there's some attempts to change that. And I think it's really important to acknowledge that it is very much a Eurocentric thing, that there are other cultures and other language constructs that are completely, um, beyond [00:35:00] the binary. And so my sense is that the culture that I come from, if I back into European, probably, um, England, Scotland, that I think in the past that it existed. So this idea of a binary construction agenda is is quite new. I don't think it's old and it would be really interesting to understand more how that came to be so I think of what's going on [00:35:30] at the moment and this claiming and adding to it and one of the things that's really important to me. I'm not saying that the binary is wrong or bad. I'm just saying, Let's add some, um, some other components and layers. So let's make this thing fabulous and layered and and reflective rather than this notion of two. Did you hear that? Oh, no. Well, I mean, just to Yeah, but yeah. II. I totally [00:36:00] agree. It is the way to kind of combat. A binary is not to say that those things are wrong. It's to make it a multiplicity. And otherwise you're just setting up a new binary between, like anti binary and pro. I don't know. It just seems silly. And and, I mean, it's also just respecting people's who they are. It's not fair to just say, Oh, well, your gender is wrong because you are a binary gender. It's not [00:36:30] absolute. Um, when I was, like, just starting college, I was about 13. And I remember seeing, um, the school counsellor. And it wasn't the awesome school counsellor. It was the school counsellor that came on, you know, every other day that everyone tried to just not see. And, um, I would I just remember talking to her about how [00:37:00] I realised that I didn't really feel like I fit into category A or category. B and her response was that there is another option, and she mentions that it would be really hard for me because I went to a uniform college. I wouldn't be able to. There would be no uniform for me. And that's why there's not a third option. [00:37:30] Because if you don't wear a skirt and if you don't wear pants, then obviously you, you you don't belong in a city where yeah, then that lack of actually having access to that language meant that for the next, however many years until I turned like 18, I didn't know there was any other option. So to be able to [00:38:00] actually see language kind of being created and like evolving that, like, specifically names, how I feel about my gender is really awesome just to actually see that in action. Um, one of the things that was a real, um, total mind blowing moment for me was when I realised that I'd really internalised this idea idea that to be a person, you had to be a man. [00:38:30] And so I felt like some of my, um, more masculine, which I would describe as like soft Butch side was coming from this idea that that was my personhood and that, um once I got rid of that idea or examined it or just even noticed it was there, I could go. Oh, right. OK, cool. So that actually doesn't really make sense. And then I was able to move on and get to a point where I'm like both and neither, you know, like, I'm both soft butch and hard, but I'm like, you know, and that [00:39:00] you can have both of them. And that's cool as well. You know, like you don't have to have. Yeah, you can pick your chips and take what you want. And yeah, it was really powerful for me. Yeah, something that I've learned through my exploration of of labels other than the The problem that I always keep on having is that labels don't define a person. You define your own labels. To describe yourself to other people is, um So I've gone through a whole lot of labels of, like, gender and sexuality. And at the moment I define my gender as GE, which is my name. Because then I get [00:39:30] to define what the German gender is, which has been really powerful. Mhm. So we're getting close to the end of that hour, which is really sad, and there's lots of people who haven't spoken, and that's fine. This is not a compulsory. Let everybody speak. But I do want to create a space where people can speak if they want to. So let's get into the small groups like groups of tools and just check in with the person you know, sitting near you. Are they feeling OK? Is there anything that they want to [00:40:00] say just so that we actually do create and hear what we've been talking about, which is respect and safety and, you know, a place to talk and it's OK to say anything and then we'll we'll figure out how to wrap it up. You know, that was beautiful. Just hearing the the energy and and the buzz that that went up. And I'm really sad that we we need to sort of pull it, pull it to an ending. But we do, um [00:40:30] so, So watch out for the emerging Mafia and we might actually be able to get to a point like in San Francisco in the seventies, that you can blow on your whistle and something good would happen, which would be the handcuffs would arrive. So maybe we, um, practise and celebrate and see just how much noise we can make in here. Are you ready? Yeah. [00:41:00] I have this vision that put in place the whistle is going and here we come. Yeah. OK, everyone, thank you for participating in such a beautiful and interactive session. I just want to thank our fabulous participants for smashing the binary for us and showing us all the ends that exist in there. Um, and thank you all for being part of it, too.
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