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OK, so we we're here to talk about trans representation of the media. We're going to be talking mostly with how we deal with the fact that a lot of the media representations of gender diversity at the moment are pretty bloody inaccurate. Um, pretty bloody offensive and pretty damaging, actually to a trans and gender diversity to talk about that we have two people on this panel. We have Sheri over here. I'm just gonna read, um, she's description. Former sex worker Trans activist supporter currently working on her public service career, offers her perspective for what [00:00:30] may be the last time. To some, she is transsexual to others, she is female. To all who know her. She is just she and the other person who's going to be talking on this panel is Kelly, and Kelly is a trained and experienced journalist who deals with high profile cases who has extensive experience with a variety of media. So what, we're going to do a little bit similar to the other panels you've been, um, to probably is we're gonna have 10 minutes from each speaker, and then they would like to reserve the right to reply to one another, which I think is fabulous beauty before. [00:01:00] OK, um, cut everyone. Um I suppose, um I don't know, really where to start? Um, I haven't really prepared anything, but I think, um, this particular topic is very topical at the moment, considering all the coverage that we've had lately of, um, the young trans person in the media. Um, uh, personally, I think that that was quite [00:01:30] a positive look, um, and insight into, uh, trans representation in the media because they did, uh, get, uh, quite a few perspectives from a broad range of people, which I think is, uh, sort of the media's, um, what they really should be doing. Uh, although it is, uh, quite a pity that they started off sensationalising things, as they usually do. Um, and then further on down the wick, it actually [00:02:00] started bringing a more positive light to it and getting an a true community, uh, representation on it and comment on it. Um, now, uh, Kelly and I both, um, agree that there are certain images within the media of trans people. Um, that really sensationalise us, um, and see us in a very sexual light. Um, one thing that I really sort of like to say is that we are according [00:02:30] to society, we're walking, talking, breathing fetishes. We're pieces of meat. Um, I undertook, um, a social experiment. And I think quite a few people have done this as well by using a, uh, the same photo on NZ dating, um, creating a profile. Um, as a gay male, as a, uh, gay female, as a straight male, as a straight female and as a transexion, uh, most of [00:03:00] the messages that I received on NZ dating as a straight and gay male and a straight and or lesbian female were Would you like to meet for a coffee? Um, see how things go. Every single message that I that came through, um, on my transsexual profile were all sexual. There wasn't one single one that actually asked if I wanted to meet up for a chat for a coffee in a public place. Um, and that really does show [00:03:30] the the sexualization of trans people, um, and society's minds. And to be honest, uh, there are instances where, in fact, we've brought it upon ourselves. Um, because when people talk to the media, um, they, uh the media want this really sensational story? Um, about, um, you know, they want the down on the dumbest kid who's risen. [00:04:00] Um, and now, you know, got a positive life. They want the tear jerker. They really want the ratings. And that's what it's all about. They're really not interested in somebody who's just living. Not just existing, like most Trans people are doing is just existing. We are actually living. Um, we're out there in the world, um, you know, working on our careers, Um uh, really doing positive things, but in the background, not really right out [00:04:30] there and showing the world that this is what I am. You know? Look at me. I'm a transsexual. I've got a real job just like you, But it's, quite frankly, fuck off. Really? Because that's that's just how people see us. You know, as um how can you, um, as a transsexual get a real job in the real world per se? Um, because you're just a walking, talking, breathing fetish. You're a piece of match. And that's how people see us. Unfortunately, um, [00:05:00] and you know, there's a lot of media stories are the wrong ones. I mean, I personally was, um, a part of that a little bit with tampon gate, as some would call it. Um, that was, um we won't rehash old memories, but that was that. That was taken just to the max. You know, it was reported in the New Zealand Herald, and then from there, it just went absolutely crazy all around the world. Um, it even [00:05:30] ended up in the Wall Street Journal. It was crazy. Um, but you know that that's something that, um, really sort of reinforces that, um, we are still just different. And we're not a part of this world and that we how in the world can we actually be contributing members of society? Um, admittedly, I was the stereotype, um, at a very early, um, time of my transition where I worked out on the street, Um, as a six [00:06:00] worker. Um, some of the worst times in my life were out there, but some of the best and most wonderful times were were spent out there as well. Uh, lots of fun, but lots of tears. Lots of laughter as well. Um, but and now it's I've really sort of come to the farm a little bit and just, um now just working on my career and stuff and the media aren't interested in that. They just want the ratings. They really want those sensationalised stories about, [00:06:30] um how, uh, that that person who started out on the street is now, um, there, you know. And, you know, I've had a few, uh, calls asking, um if they want to do a story, et cetera, And I'm sure quite a few other people have as well, um, you know, But, uh, really, there's that fear of being outed for the rest of your life, you know, because the media do actually want to present trans people [00:07:00] in a positive light, But people actually need to put their hand up and do it, you know, and not actually shy away from it, you know? I mean, I understand. You know, you don't want to be out for the rest of your life, but we need more spokespeople, um, in the media. And there's not enough of, uh, there's not not enough trans people who are actually brave enough to stand up and do that, because that is very brave. And you, you know, nobody can be expected to to do that. But do realise that when you do, uh, present yourself in the media, especially, um, uh, film [00:07:30] media. Uh, you are pretty much essentially outing yourself for the rest of your life. Um, and that's something that, you know, you can't really expect people to do, but we do need people positive influences, um, out there on the forefront and actually saying to society that we are normal per se, you know that we can actually fit in if that's what you want to do to fit in. Um, but, you know, there are those who who want to be out there and totally fabulous and fly all their arms everywhere. That's cool. You know, walk down the street and your mini skirt and high heels [00:08:00] and whatever all good sweet as but, you know, there are those ones that, uh, just want to carry on and just get on with their lives. Um, but, um, yeah, I suppose that's that's sort of, um, an overview of it. But, you know, there are the the certain, uh, certain things that that you can say about the media, like when they report something in print media. Um, usually 100% [00:08:30] of the the story is, um, miso pronoun the person, or when it's 50 50 as well. When they refer to the person prett trans, they use the wrong pronouns and then post transition. They use the correct pronouns. Why don't they use it throughout the entire story? You know? And there's not usually now anyway, um, a story that's written about somebody who's Trans, um, and their story. But they use the correct pronouns throughout the entire story. [00:09:00] Um, to be honest, there are before, um uh, I suppose pre nineties, there was a lot of positive representation of trans in the media. Um, there was a, um, Trans woman in Christchurch who was murdered with a samurai sword. Um, by one of her clients. Uh, they never referred to her as a sex worker. They never referred to her as a trans [00:09:30] woman. They never referred to her or or her lifestyle that she used to partake in, um, like drugs or anything like that. She was just a person who was murdered. Um, and although that was a terrible story and a terrible situation, she was not misrepresented in the media. and it was very, very positive. And, you know, that's something that the media could have pounced on. Um, you know, and could have really, um, created a really negative [00:10:00] effect on the entire community. Um, by saying, you know, I mean, it's happened already. Now all trans all trans women are are hookers. And stand on the street on the corner, you know, working their ass off. Quite literally. Um, all trans women take drugs. Um, that's a massive thing. Um, you know, I even get people, um, come up to me and say, Oh, you know, do you know where to score any drugs? And it's like, Have I [00:10:30] ever told you I do drugs? Have you ever seen me do drugs? Are you just asking me Because I'm a trainer and it's like, for goodness sake, you know, and these are just random people coming up to me on the street. It's like, Oh, hey, is this Do you know where to score? And I was like, Please don't assume, you know, that's That's it, you know, that's that's sort of what what people have put us in. That's the box we've been put on. We're drugged up. We're hookers, and we've got no jobs when that's just not true. I mean, yeah, there [00:11:00] are people who are the stereotype. Absolutely. And I suppose, for one reason or another, um, they fall as through the cracks. Um, or they actually enjoy that life, you know, because it is possible to enjoy that life. I enjoyed that life for quite a long time. Um, but, you know, there are ones who are doing that just because they see that they have no other choice. Um, and we can't judge them on that. But in saying that, you know, we need more positive representation, and people [00:11:30] need to be a lot more brave to put their hands up and say, I'll do that. No problem. Just be aware you are essentially outing yourself for the rest of your life. And if you do do that, you know, there are things that that there could be backlash. Um, but that's only because of the small mindedness of society. You know, it's going to get to a point. Hopefully, um, possibly not in my lifetime. I pray that it will happen in my lifetime where, um, anybody can just be themselves [00:12:00] and be happy to be themselves without any fear whatsoever. Come on. I was just wondering if I could actually be able to after my heavy drinking session last night whether I'll be able to stay on my feet. Well, perhaps you could just No, no, just catch me If I [00:12:30] just picking up on what she said before, um, about the image, we create our own image, and I don't want to give you too much of a long dog ass story, But when I sort of began my transition, I suppose in in 2008, the first thought I had when I thought, Oh, my God, I'm some kind of transgender person. And instantly the image I had of myself was staggering up [00:13:00] K road and stilettos, uh, with a sequence dress and a blonde beehive wig chasing after, um, cars and looking for my next job. And I thought to myself, Oh, my God, is that Is that the image? Now where did that image come from? And that image has come from the media, and it's, uh, it's because what often, how trans people are portrayed. And, uh, if you just look at something like the big gay out. The trans image is some, um, overly [00:13:30] painted drag queen with a Dr draping an arm around John Key. And these are the images which end up on the front pages of newspapers and that kind of thing. But as I said, I don't want to tell too much of a long dog ass story, but, uh, as, uh, as as I started looking at this, I realised that in an incredibly public job like I have, which is appearing in court every day in the criminal jurisdiction, um, my mere presence as a trans person [00:14:00] was going to be, uh, changing, uh, the image that some people had because if, like me, they had this image of the sequence um, monstrous, uh, on K road. Uh, then how are they going to perceive me? And I realised, as I set up with some friends, a little trust called trans advocates, that our mission was to achieve influence because, of course, that's what we want. We want influence, [00:14:30] uh, achieve that look through our presence. So it's not about going off and being a great fire brand. It's actually about getting on with your job. and being unexceptional. Uh, if if not I mean when doing a good job, but not standing out like, uh, you know, the proverbial dogs balls, um, in the in the job that we're doing. So to just give you a little example. Um, I was reading the paper a month or so ago and some, uh, high profile lawyers [00:15:00] in Wellington's their child had been caught drink, driving. And there I was, reading the New Zealand Herald about some Wellington lawyers, and it was, but they were in the paper because their child had been drunk driving, and so that child would never have made the newspapers. But for the fact that she came from lawyers, lawyers were her parents. So I'm driving along with my son up to he's 21 talking about a drugs case I was and he said, Gee, you should hook [00:15:30] me up with one of these, uh, you know, one of these, uh, drug dealers you've got because you know, the pound rate that you were quoting from far north compared with you know, the bloody hydro down in the west Auckland. Jesus. You know, I got to scoot up there and ring it Does he hook me up? Hook me up and I said, Son, can you imagine you would make the front page of the New Zealand Herald if you got caught and he goes, Oh, fuck you, That's right. It'll be a a lawyer's son busted for pot and I said, No, son, it'd be transsexual [00:16:00] lawyer's son busted for pot, and, uh, that ended up that ended any further conversation about trying to hook him up with one of my clients for a pound of dope. And that's the thing. We are attractive to the media, and we need to be very careful about that because we are under more scrutiny as trans people than normal people. I mean, it it it just goes with the territory Now as I I trained [00:16:30] as a journalist in 1980. I worked as a journalist for a bit and then sort of, I don't know what happened, but sort of things went bad, and I became a lawyer. It's been downhill ever since then, Um, but I realised quickly that, um, there were a hell of a lot of other transgender lawyers, uh, practising law and that I was going to attract attention. Now, I'm the kind of lawyer who actually looks at [00:17:00] a lot of other lawyers around the place and who go from being cock of the root to fear the duster in a very short time. Those that caught the media almost invariably end up with their asses getting bitten by it. If you're going to court the media, uh, you got to take the good with the bad. And I've always had the attitude. The very best kind of lawyer is the invisible one because the client wants to be invisible for the most part. [00:17:30] And that's not achieved by having a peacock lawyer as you about much better off having a drab lawyer, uh, who who comes in through the side entrance and gets you in and out of the side entrance if you're the client. And so I've always seen the media rather not quite so much as the enemy, um, of lawyers, but as, uh, something, which is actually not very useful. Uh, if you caught the media, it's because you're short on ego short on work, uh, [00:18:00] or something like that. It can sometimes have a micro benefit for one client, but again, you know, once you start supping with the devil, uh, they're just about isn't a spoon long enough. And if you start trying to use the media to promote one case, well, then they're going to be using it. They're going to be coming and seeing you about other stuff, which you perhaps would rather that they didn't take an interest in. So, um, my point is that I'd managed to keep a very low profile, and I'd done that [00:18:30] because I because, uh, the media, uh, who are always after stories I had developed a policy of throwing out lamb chops to them. In other words, things like you want to get down to courtroom four? Oh, no, no, no. You've got something interesting going on in courtroom one. No, that won't happen till 2. 15. Um, Courtroom four duck down there for a look. And by doing that, the media realised that they were much better off having [00:19:00] an ongoing supply of useful information the lamb chops than coming and trying to have one big feed of Phillip steak off my back because that would be the last one. And as I transitioned, uh, I knew, you know, every day there are reporters in court and I can remember doing one trial and the first trial I did where I asserted myself as and sure enough reported on 60 Minutes was there. And from there on let a, uh, nearly a five year merry chase [00:19:30] where eventually they tracked me down and said, Time to do that story And I said, No, no, no, no, no. And they said, But you're right at the Marriage Equality Select Committee on Tuesday at three o'clock and I said, No, I'm not. And I said, Well, yes, you are. And we got a camera there, and at that point I was presented with the option of, um cooperating and achieving some influence or continuing to be curmudgeonly and, [00:20:00] uh and and uncooperative, in which case they go and do their own digging and write their own stuff. And I preferred not to have that happen, particularly because I've got a couple of kids. So, you know, in the end, I decided to go for that that cooperative attitude. Um, and fortunately, because they had pursued me for so long, uh, I was able to exert more influence in it, uh, in their story than Perhaps, um uh, I would have if [00:20:30] I put my hand up right at the outset. But the point is that they ended up giving what I thought was a pretty good portrayal. And it's not was not that sequence and stiletto image that many of us have and which is sort of, um, eed indelibly into my synapses. I want to talk now about surgery, and one of the most offensive things I think I have found is that Trans people seem [00:21:00] to be, uh, as a a great generalisation, uh, filled with a lot of people who want to talk about their genitals. Hi, my name is Cindy, and I'm post. This is often the first kind of introduction that will occur at, say, a trans support. And my first thoughts are I'm not interested in your genitals. I'm interested in your mountain, your river and your family, and you know, your genitals do not add to the strength of your argument. [00:21:30] They don't make you a better person than me. And in fact, the talking about your genitals and bragging about your surgery, in actual fact, probably makes you a a lesser, a lesser person. But the point I'm trying to make is that we have created transgender people, have created a culture where the world thinks it's OK to ask us. And we've done that by talking about it all the time and by brandishing our genitals, uh, in, uh, in almost [00:22:00] any discussion that we have. And, of course, we'll all have seen the dozens of documentaries around the place where, um uh, Sergeant Major gets turned into into Barbie doll with five simple operations in the Thailand chop shop. All done with a macro lens, uh, staring, staring at the the apparatus. And, uh, this is often done, obviously with the consent of the person who's doing it. And often I believe [00:22:30] it has been done with funding done by the, um, the documentary makers. So, you know, you know, uh, we'll pay you to do something, um, as long as we can film it. And while I can understand, some people wanted to take advantage of, uh, free surgery. It has created what I think is a AAA very bad culture, and that culture is overly sexualized. Trans woman. And it has created the culture where people think that it's OK? I mean, we [00:23:00] see it on TV all the time, So why can't I ask you about your vagina? And you know, and that sort of seems to be the the the mindset. And I say we need to crush that, and the only way we can crush that and it'll have to be a long, slow crush is just stop talking. Uh, except in appropriate circumstances about our genitals because our genitals do not define us. And the conversations about genitals. I mean, sure, Trans people [00:23:30] sometimes want to have a conversation about it, but it should be done in the right kind of space. It shouldn't be done in public. Nobody, uh, talks about their genitals in public. What's so special about trans people? And so I wanna make this point, you know, we should stop. Yeah, never ask and and never tell. Except in, you know, the most intimate of situations. Because we have created this monster, and it is a bloody awful one. And I can remember turning up to court about 20 lawyers [00:24:00] queuing up to see a prosecutor about, um, trial dates. And the first thing was, 000, you got a date to such and said, Oh, oh, good day. This is AAA senior partner and MEREDITH Connell, a lovely fellow who I'm sure could conduct himself in a decorous way under normal circumstances. But there he was in front of 20 people and said to me, Are you are you going to get the, uh, looking at me going? Are you going to get the And I just died 1000 [00:24:30] deaths? Um, she managed to keep my poker face and, um, just said, Give us the date, please. The point is, how could an educated person who was able to act with great decorum and diplomacy in his workplace and was excellent at it? How could he ask me in front of 20 other people about the genitals, what kind of culture has generated this? And as I say, it's the, uh [00:25:00] is the culture that we have created. Now, I also want to say this this, you know, and and, uh, anybody here who does drag who is deeply offended by this. Perhaps I'm not the, um the safe space contact to to to come and deal with but drag to many trans people is utterly offensive drag is gay guys dressing up and lurid stuff for entertainment. And, you know, forgive me. Maybe I haven't got a sense [00:25:30] of humour, but I've never been able to see the humour of it. Uh, because I see it as being very much like Black face. You know, some of you might be old enough to remember the black and white minstrel show. How the hell is dragged different now? I don't see it. I see it as taking the piss out of women and parodying and mocking trans people. And it's gay guys hogging the limelight. What is the image in the press? It's, you know, Miss Rina Dr Draped over John Key. It's not with the hearer. [00:26:00] Um, it's not me, you know, with my head down in court or shuffling through the, um market with my trolley. And that's because those images are not spectacular. And I think that what we have allowed, uh, the gay male community to do is effectively hijack the images of trans people that are portrayed in the newspapers. And I don't know quite how to address that. And I know that a lot of people disagree with me say, Hey, look you know, for God's [00:26:30] sake, you of all people, should hardly be getting concerned about what other people are wearing and do not think that just because somebody else is doing that is necessary. You know, dressed as funny is going to reflect on you. But when we have this image, this spangled sparkly image which, uh, all of us probably have when we think about trans people, um, there's the damage. And it means that there is sort of this this this image is there, and it's very, very difficult [00:27:00] to live down. And the only way we can live it down is by living a a non sequent, non sparkly life. And, of course, that does not attract cameras. So how do we improve our image? Uh, in the media? And my thoughts are is by getting on with our jobs, not talking about our genitals, not staggering around on K road, wearing, um, sequins, Uh, and [00:27:30] just being good people doing good work. And inevitably, I mean, I was talking with my father the other day and I said to look, I don't want to be famous for being trans. He goes, Well, you might not have any choice about it. I said, Yeah, but I want to be known as a good lawyer, a good parent, a kind pig farmer. Um, I don't want to be defined as this. I'd rather be defined as a pig farmer than defined as transgender because I should stop farming pigs. But, I mean, that was what I did, you know, till six weeks ago. That was what [00:28:00] I did. Um, you know, that's what I did. It's what I do to earn a living, put food on the table and that kind of thing. And those are the kinds of images that we need to create, in my view, not the images of, um, drag the images of, um, of of cross dresses, walking up the street and there and all they get up and that kind of thing. And I make this point too. The whole sexualized image of trans women. [00:28:30] It's it's completely false because there are no trend, you know, if you if any of you here, I don't know how many of you here know the kind of, uh, hormone regime that trans women go on. But transwomen, if they've had surgery, lower surgery will then their testes have been removed. Castrated the hormone regime that Trans women go on is the kind of thing which would have your average Texas jail warden if he was looking at the [00:29:00] the hormone print out for, uh, uh, one of his prisoners. Uh, well, a paedophile prisoner. He would be looking at that going? Yes, these drugs are very good. Now, your average Trans woman who would have a print out and show the printout of the hormone levels your average Texas prison warden would be going. Yep. The pills are doing the trick. The reality is that the pills that trans women take oestrogen and testosterone blockers have you know, you wouldn't [00:29:30] be doing it for sex. Why? Because it reduces libido. Everton's atrophy. You know, the list goes on a whole load of things which you really wouldn't be doing if you wanted to go and have a wild night on K Road. So that just illustrates note that we've got this incredibly sexualized image which completely is at odds with the lives of most trans people. And in the end, it's entirely up to us how we change these images [00:30:00] and the way we do. It is probably not by being spectacular in how we look, but by being spectacular in what we do. And when I say spectacular in what we do, it's the good things that we do. You know. It is almost spectacular for trans people to be seen as parents, to be seen as workers to be seen as something other than the sparkling image of a sex worker or a drag queen. And the ball is totally in our court. And as Trans people, [00:30:30] we need to be conscious that we are under the microscope and anything we do, anything we do, which is remotely newsworthy, becomes extremely newsworthy. Just because we're Trans, one of our kids gets busted, it's gonna be transgender persons kid busted for pot. And the only way that we can change that in my submission to you is to work hard at being good. Citizens work hard at being good. Parents work hard [00:31:00] in our jobs and, um, uh, realise that the media attention is always going to be on us. And when that spotlight does come on us, we want to make sure that we're behaving well because, as we all know, the images of trans people are not all good. And we want to make sure that the media has good ones. And we achieve that by being good. Trans people. Thank you for your time, people. [00:31:30] No, I just really want to reinforce what Kelly is saying. You know, it's really up to us on how we portray ourselves in the media, because, um, when you undertake media training, you're taught that the media wants something from you, and whatever you give the media is what they're going to report. So, you know, it's up to us to really change that image. [00:32:00] Um, and yeah, and really want to reinforce Kelly's comments on being good at what you do. Um, and just being really good people, Um and, you know, really worthwhile contributors to society. You know, um, whether that's, um, working on on on on your career, working on your education, um, or just working on yourself and looking inside yourself [00:32:30] to really sort of find where you fit in this world, you know? And yeah, just just stay awesome. Mm. Ok, thank you. Um, something I should have said earlier. We're gonna open the floor up now for questions. If people don't want their question to be in the recording of the session, can you flag that and we'll have, um we have control over that, um, second thing I realised I don't have a clock or a time piece, and I can't see one in this room. So I'm wondering if someone who has [00:33:00] one, thank you very much. Thank you. So we have 15 minutes now for questions to make sure we have as much time as possible for as many people as possible to contribute. I want to encourage people to be quite tight with their questions or comments. Um, rather than more, um, exploratory with their questions or comments. So we'll open the floor now for questions. I actually have quite a lot to say on this, uh, on this matter just to, um [00:33:30] counter a a point that is made in regards to what you tell the media is what they report. An incident that I that that involved me. When I was in the in the army years ago, there was a big exercise in the central North island and I was a damage control officer. It's part of the exercise, um, soldiers ended up in a field of, uh, of boats on, um, on loch and bus station. Uh, it was a paddock that we were supposed to stay out of. Unfortunately, the guys dropped out of an aeroplane. Um, landed in this, uh, in this [00:34:00] paddock and some moron got in this mog and drove through the paddock to pick them up in the in the middle of it. So there was a There was a significant amount of what appeared to be a significant amount of damage to to the crop. Um, that the manager came to us and said, Hey, you know, you're bugger up here. Um, the media laps on the fact that there was an issue and reported that night. Um, before I was involved in the investigation, uh, the the media reported right straight away for product. Um, for my publication that [00:34:30] night that there was a major incident that was gonna cost the defence force thousands. Um, I took a helicopter flight across the paddock with the manager. We agreed on, um, issues such as the width of the tyre tracks. Two tyre tracks per vehicle. Uh, the length of the tracks in and out of the thing where X amount of stuff we count the square metres, the yield per metre, and it came to about 380 odd dollars. I think at the end of the day, [00:35:00] I reported that I was encouraged to report that directly to that same reporter. Um, that well, after I've done the investigation, we'd come to the settlement, and that did not get reported at all. It did not suit the agenda that that reporter or his editor wished to present in in his particular, um, publication. Um, I think the [00:35:30] issues for us and and all the points that are raised are are are good points II, I agree. But I think there's a There's a real deep underlying issue that doesn't just affect, um, transgender. But it really affects all marginalised, um, groups of people within, within our society. And, um, I it is it is my belief that that stems right back to Hank number eight and and his booting [00:36:00] out Catholicism and starting off um anglicism and not shooting too many of the people of that era, uh, gave rise to the Puritans and and the pilgrims. Uh, we ended up with that fundamentalist Protestantism that found that it didn't have a place in in England at the time, served in the UK in the east coast of America. And in that in that form of Protestantism, where [00:36:30] they elected their pastors or their their leaders within their organisation, they democratised religion if you like. It's not democracy, but they democratised it if you can pick up the the subtle a subtle difference in in that definition. And it was that basis of democracy that formed the thinking behind the formation of of America. And it's that model [00:37:00] of democracy and everything else that has come with the Protestant Protestant movement, the the the freedom of the great thinkers, Newton and the like to open their minds to the and create the Industrial Revolution and all of the constructs that have flowed through from that part of which is the media. And we now can I just pause you for a moment? I just want to let other people in the room have a chance to ask questions, too. Did you have one question At this point, you want to ask, [00:37:30] is it? And if there's, we'll come back to you for sure. Is there anyone else in the room who has any questions? I would like to, if that's possible to you. And you want to say awesome thoughts and ideas from from both of you. Thank you very much. Um, my question is, uh, more about, um, how I put this, uh, so I want to I'd like to, um if there is an opportunity for me to get involved with the media, I would like [00:38:00] to say it, but one of the reasons I would I I am I'm terrified of being in the media is because, um, the media is so consistently misgender people, um, uses the wrong, uh, pronouns. Um uses their own assumptions, things like that. And it seems to be so, um, it it covers the entire industry that it seems that it's more it's not. Um, it's not extent, but something bigger than that. So my question is, how can we improve the state of the media to correctly [00:38:30] gender people, for example, or any ideas that if I can answer that, I think it's largely to do with, uh, relationships with the media. And I mean, I can say I've never been mis gendered. Uh, I've been quoted many times, uh, because I'm working in a smallish town, um, doing reasonably high profile cases. It means that there probably wouldn't be a week that would go by without my having something in the newspaper. And [00:39:00] it never happens. Why? Because I've got good relationships with them. They know that I've got the never ending bag of chops to throw out, throw their way and they wouldn't bloody dare. But I want to just like they wouldn't dare because they would know that if they pissed me off, then they would no longer be getting the chops. And, uh and I just want to make this point. Um, she was talking about more people standing up, [00:39:30] but I actually think that the trans community there are too many people wanting to stand up and spout their opinions. And there are all people who are actually doing work. So just standing up, saying, I'm Trans, I've got something to say. Um, my advice would be Forgive me, Um, don't say anything and keep away from the media. But if you're doing something which is worthy and which you want to which which attracts media [00:40:00] attention. Well, that's story. Or if you've got something like the Trans prisoners issue, which I've been working on for a while, where unfortunately and I don't want publicity. But I wanted publicity for that. And so the point that I'm trying to make is, uh, just because you're Trans. And just because you've got something to say, that's no reason to go anywhere near a reporter. That's a good reason to avoid reporters like the plague. Um, if [00:40:30] you've got something that you're doing and that you want publicity for, then seek the media out. But remember, you're giving them something, and if you give them something, then you should be able to establish a relationship where they are going to treat you with respect. But if it's just, you know, I'm transgender and I want to, um, speak about this, well, then you're probably not going to be. The media is going to go. Oh, he's just another publicity seeker, and they're not going to sort of take a particular care. [00:41:00] And when 60 minutes, you know, cracked me down, got me in a corner of the Marriage Equality Select Committee. Um, they had courted me for so long. They were so interested in the story that the last thing they wanted to do was piss me off. And so that meant that, for example, they didn't dare ask about my surgical status. They didn't dare ask what my former name was. They didn't actually ask to see another photo of me and and hoped that, [00:41:30] uh, I might allow them to run that. But I said no and that was OK. They were fine with that. Why? Because I had something good and juicy to give them. And that was the Trans Prisoner story. So keep away from reporters. Unless you've got something that they want and and when it comes to, uh, giving them that thing, give it to them on your terms. Don't just throw it out there because you want to make sure that they're buying it off you. And the price that you want [00:42:00] them to pay is respect. And that respect is don't ask about my wedding tackle. Don't ask about my name. Don't ask about you know that kind of thing. Sorry. If that was a long answer Did you have anything you wanted to add to that? She's got me on remote control. Thank you both for both of what you've said. And, uh, yeah, I was [00:42:30] watching something the other night on in, in, in, in to. And one of the good things about that programme was it talked to the with their families, with their parents, with people who love them for whatever reason. And then it showed you, You know that Miss night, You know, with all the spas and everything. But you knew that there was something more than that. And that was the big thing for somebody who was watching me [00:43:00] and said, Oh, look, they do that. They do gardens, they work, they do this and that. And I and I said, What? What did you think they did? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, if I do it, it's I promise you. But within that there seem to be, and I'm I'm sure it's not always a fairly good family environment for them to actually come through. Now I know it doesn't happen at all. I know it can happen with some Maori families where it's good, but I know [00:43:30] with some Maori family it's not, um, but sometimes for those people, when they come to a New Zealand. They don't have the same if you like, um, family structure behind them. The jobs they do are in factories often, and they do this so their life becomes very drab to make up for that on Saturday night, all the slap goes on, you know, and it's also having an understanding of that, [00:44:00] but also knowing that that's not the only way to live. And I think that's where the education actually does come with. What you're both saying is that they can have another life in this country. But it does take work for them for those ones, because many of them come up with not the best English, I mean. And I grew up with grandparents who didn't speak English, so I know what that's like. Um, they also have come with a dream here to try and improve their lives. [00:44:30] They're also sending money back home, and we did that in Maori. Them a lot, too. So often you don't have the necessarily qualifications, and I'm talking about this in general. I'm using it in very broad terms, but I think they still have a right to be there. That's what I'm saying, And if in another generation we can come through this to get to where you people are and then I hope that that will really happen. So thank you both [00:45:00] for what you have shared with us today. Thank you. Can I make a quick point? I would like to make that comment. I. I felt that the child's privacy was destroyed. Um, and it would take an awful lot to convince me that it was worth doing. Um, and the media generally, I mean, talking about Children particularly, um, don't respect. There's not even a proper [00:45:30] process for for protecting people's privacy. Um, and I'm interested to know what we think about that. I mean, you can evaluate the whole story as positive or negative from the point of view of the trans community. But in terms of the child I, I think there's every chance that the damage it could do is irreparable. If if I can speak to that, firstly I think that it's, [00:46:00] I mean, I don't want to get too much into the rights and wrongs of it, but it's generated a AAA really good conversation. But I will say this if you start looking at. Sort of, You know, the numerous Trans 101 documents which are out there teaching people just the basic etiquette. And one of those things is never out of people. You don't do it. You know I don't. You know, you don't say. Oh, this is my friend. She's post do or this is my friend. She's [00:46:30] Trans just and And I would have thought and, you know, I don't want to sort of starting. I would have thought that out in your child. Um, uh, in the national media, even though it might have generated a fascinating and perhaps worthy conversation, I think you might be right. There's a consequence to that. And, um, I just think that, you know, nobody should be outed except when they're big enough and ugly enough to be able to do it themselves. So I suppose I have to agree with you down the back there. [00:47:00] Yeah, I would definitely agree with you there That, um you know, um, this child will, um, have to live with this for the rest of their life. Um, I'm not 100% sure. If this child was actually named. He's been named in the media and certainly on the gay. The gay press. The name is on the interweb. Saw him on the or what? I'm not sure. What [00:47:30] story exactly was we sort of sat there, said privacy and moved on. Basically, um I mean, there comes a point where I feel you could at least so stop yourself from your, um Yeah, yeah, yeah. And And, you know, that comes down to the media. Really? Whether or not they actually, um, have the conscience to be able to protect this child, because at the end of the day, who [00:48:00] gives a fuck if this child is trans or not? Um, you know, this child is going to have to live with this for the rest of their life. You know, um, they may even have to choose a different name to really get away from it, you know? And that's just unnecessary hurt and angst. And that's just what the media does. Really. They really don't give a fuck about who they hurt. Um, what they say as long as the story gets out there, I mean, yes, there has been sort [00:48:30] of positive implications Where, um it is finally actually being discussed. You know, the the real issues are being discussed. But, um, it's really sad that this child has actually, um is actually going to have to look at this. I think if I could sum it up, let me nail my own colours to my own mast. And by God, if anybody else does it for me, um, they might find that they I'm waiting [00:49:00] for them when they come down. We are being on the end of our time. Um, I think it's a beautiful place to eat, actually. Um, and I'd like to thank both of you for sharing so generally with us. Yeah, thank you very much.
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