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[00:00:30] they will hold on to too, doctor. Or [00:01:00] then I go to [00:01:30] we here to me here tomorrow. No money, heart and mind to fight you and know who I got. No, [00:02:00] no. One of the things killed everybody. Now take a breath Can do this. OK, One of the things in being in this house, which is probably different from any other room that you're in it is customary or it is traditional to acknowledge the house because the Lord of the [00:02:30] Forest was said to be the ones who separated earth and sky. And so it was to give shelter. And so we acknowledged the house. Then I go outside to acknowledge the separation of earth and sky, to acknowledge the elements of male and female and then to acknowledge the elements that are here today. All of all, sorry, the people who have passed on the other thing on this is I say [00:03:00] that those males who find other males attractive the wa wa for those women to find other women attractive and for those people who are intersects with all the love that we give to them and also [00:03:30] to those who have by their own grace decided what is the right sexual orientation for them? Whether it is from a male to female or female to male, they have made informed decisions. And so we would like to talk about it. Maybe a little bit later on. Open up this discussion [00:04:00] for all of us. Please don't be afraid of arguments in Maori. We say to argue is good but argue the point, not the person. Argue the point. OK, so Kilda, ta be great! Kilda is to be alive to have energy And I'm sure you all got it here. So I'm gonna say Kilda and I want you all to say Kilda, back after three Kelda. 123 [00:04:30] Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! Come on! Hey! Hey! So I'm gonna kill her and you're going kill that! OK, so this time off the fuck that might help the fuck you and fuck! Oh, OK [00:05:00] thing with some of these sessions that sometimes you get a bit of a surprise. This is about Yeah, [00:05:30] that [00:06:00] that last minute is to say we form an alliance. We hope to form an alliance with you to bring us together. Let the things begin told [00:06:30] me that you got to, um, Kevin home. You talk to anyone? Uh, Kevin, Home is my name. Uh, my, uh, in the programme, I've sent my waka, uh um hotel, uh, which means I come from quite a number of, uh, different. Uh, but [00:07:00] my primary, um, is at a place called, um which is, uh, by the, uh, by Portuguese. So on the eastern Bay, that's my father's, um, and my, um, which is called, uh, model is the name of the on my mother's side. Um, my primary, uh uh, [00:07:30] which is at a little place called which is just down the road from, um But our is at a place called, uh which is between, And so I come from, uh uh um and so [00:08:00] that's a little bit of that in me today. I'm going to talk about, uh, a group called and the reason I want to talk about this group called because I think it offers some, um, interesting, uh, information about how a community group of, uh, here in Wellington have have come together and the reasons why they've come [00:08:30] together, Uh, and so I'm going to talk to you a little bit about the the history of that. So is the name of the the community group. It was formed in 2001, and it was formed in response to the Gay Games, which was going to be held in Sydney in 2002. And the reason why this group started to come together was because this [00:09:00] was an international event that was gay, lesbian ta ta. Which is going to be held in our part of the the world. And so it was an opportunity, um, for, uh, what we thought was Maori in particular here in in to to go to Sydney. And then when we thought about that, we discovered well, you know, [00:09:30] when we get together as a we have a, uh we need to have an identity and we need to be armed. A few things just in case. Um, we asked to respond as Maori uh, in Sydney. So the things that we then started to do was actually to to learn some we thought, Oh, well, we better learn some action songs and stuff like that. [00:10:00] Um, so that, um so that we can, uh you know fulfil our role as a as a over in as a group over in Sydney. So that was the beginning of this group of people coming together primarily led by, um, uh, a an activist, uh, many of whom you know, her name is Elizabeth. She, um, [00:10:30] was one of the key figures here in Wellington as a co leader of team Wellington that, um, was taking a team to to Sydney. And so she through her networks and strong networks and in the particularly in the lesbian, Um, um, community started to bring together, uh, this group around this this of getting together as Maori [00:11:00] because what we wanted to do was actually also identify to the gay and lesbian world that was out there in Sydney. That there was another, uh, there was that there was this group from who were and we did things slightly different. So we wanted to make sure that people knew that, Yes, we were part of this general grouping, but we also had our own unique, um, ways [00:11:30] of identifying ourselves. And, of course, what we drew on was our culture to to to strengthen, um and give us a little bit of guidance even though we weren't necessarily experts. Uh, in, um, Maori knowledge. We knew little bits and pieces, but we did know some key values around how to interact with each other. [00:12:00] What we enjoyed, uh, and they gave us some sense of purpose around around coming together as a group. So is the name of the proverb that we take our name from and or is uh, is, uh, people with the That's a That's [00:12:30] the curve. So it's actually the Yeah, it's it's it describes the ark on the on the So the rainbow we started to translate as a rainbow is forming in the sky. And so what? That was, uh, a metaphor around was a community group or a group of us starting to form together as a unique [00:13:00] rainbow community as part of the wider rainbow community. Anyway, that's that's why I tell it somebody else won't say it in another way. The key things about but, um was because we all were pretty serious and, oh, no, we can't have that name. You can't have just it's got to be something really serious. It describes what it does, but actually it does describe what we do, but just in a different way, right? So it's not the active group called blah, blah, blah. It's just called [00:13:30] now has been around since that time, and it has been to quite a few, um, events, if you like. So the first Asia Pacific Games, which was held in Melbourne, there's a small group of us there, and we performed at, uh in Melbourne. And in fact, there was a quite a large group of us that went to Sydney over maybe 30 or 40 people. All knew these, um that, um we had [00:14:00] for Sydney. But what it also did was, of course, we also started to get into some conflict with our own culture and around songs around permissions around what we could sing, perhaps. Oh, no, you can't do that because that belongs to so we can't do that. So what we started to do was to write our own music and to write our own stories or to tell our own stories. So the the [00:14:30] um as started to get more organised around what sort of group this is. What is our vision? What are we looking to do? We came up with three sort of key points was to build our community. So that community is not just around community. It was the extended community, so build within build outside that as well connected all together. The second [00:15:00] thing was to tell our stories. And of course, invisibility is one of the greatest things that we have to combat. So in order to let people know who you are, you have to tell them stories. So that was one of our key aims. Was to be able to tell our stories. However, we chose to tell them so whether it was through song, whether it was through verse, poetry, uh, acting or just being [00:15:30] a part of the community and interacting that was part of our telling our stories. The third thing that we wanted to do was to leave a legacy, and we wanted that legacy for other or for Maori, who weren't quite sure where they found they could fit themselves, that there was a group like us that, um, did some things and maybe that might be a choice [00:16:00] for them as well. So those were the three key aims of different one of them, and you probably already. So, um, I think the key one of the key things for this conference, perhaps, is if you think about the rainbow forming in the sky, I sort of think about [00:16:30] the purpose of this conference being, you know, what's after such and such? Or in fact, I've forgotten what the purpose is. But never mind. I'll make up my own story. Um, the what I wanted to say was that the for me and so this is my own personal view is not the destination. It's the It's part of the the journey to the bigger reason. And so when I think about [00:17:00] the rainbow forming in the sky, I see the sky as the the big reason and that we're all part of that sky and that the rainbow is just one aspect of their diversity within the sky. But it it it describes what I think is important, Um, in terms of my own personal journey. As I say, that's my personal view. So I don't think it's the I don't think it's a destination being [00:17:30] Taku in itself, but it's really important to me because I identify as because it gives me a place that I'm grounded and comfortable with being, um, who I am culturally and who I am sexually and who I am generally gender wise, things like that. Um there may be a few other things that I could mention, um [00:18:00] such as, you know, something to think about. How has this group managed to exist for 10 years and still is quite strong? What is it that has has kept us together? And it's changed in terms of the dynamic of this group quite considerably. In the beginning, we were, uh, predominantly, uh, lesbian populated. [00:18:30] Now, in fact, it's the opposite. Uh, we've got maybe an equal balance of gay men and, uh, trains trains, maybe slowly, but, uh but it's it's interesting. We've gone through some different dynamics and there've been some arguments along the way. We all have arguments along the way, but, um, but I, I find that really interesting. How has this group [00:19:00] managed to exist? For 10 years, we've been involved with a lot of community events for a long time. In those 10 years out in the square, when it was a new town, right until it came to Civic Square here in the city um, civil Union Bill. Um, we composed a song when the Destiny Church had its enough is enough march in response to that, [00:19:30] because there are lots of things that, uh, need to that we need to combat, whether it's an internalised, um or is it internalised? Whether it's fighting with our own farmer, who might try to ostracise or deny that we exist, or whether it's fighting with our own gas? Be community to say. But we do exist, and we do things in a different way. Those those battles, If you like to [00:20:00] say, call it that those battles still continue. Some of them are just a reminder that we just need to keep on reminding and be strong about where we are grounded and why. It's important that we are all respectful of that in some way, even though we may not know how to how to how to achieve, um, respecting that in a way which others others recognise. I don't know what I've just said there, but doesn't [00:20:30] anyway, um, I'll finish at this point. If you do want to come along to. It's not exclusively for Maori, although we do have a which we try and and, um, work to, uh, in the Maori. Um, for example, if we do get invited to events, generally speaking, we invite the organisers to come along and we talk to them because we want [00:21:00] to find out what's what's it about. And do we agree with this? And do we have any questions? But that face to face thing is really important. Um, but we meet, uh, every Tuesday night at the New Zealand prostitutes' collective 6:30 p.m. It's a pretty laid back session. Um, come along. You're quite welcome to good voices are always good. Bad voices are tolerated, but that's a but, uh yeah, I'll finish. I'll [00:21:30] finish now. Uh, um uh um [00:22:00] I'm going to sing a song and there's you might see people get up there from as well. It's a song that was written in response to, um the enough is enough, um, March. And when I talk about the fact that we I think that we're part of the biggest guy, there are metaphors within that that song that that talk about the characteristics of a person [00:22:30] and it's not exclusive to being, but it, uh but it what it is trying to do is say, um um, these are these are characteristics of all things that we hold dear I think and And we're part of that, too. And so when they were doing that enough, there's enough sort of. And what I got from that because I wrote it was that, um I saw a whole lot of Maori [00:23:00] there, Uh, and I think, Oh, that makes me sort of feel like I'm excluded or stuff like that. And I didn't I didn't agree with that. And so this is a song that came as a response? Not. Why not? You might not just say that. No, [00:23:30] I Yeah, [00:24:00] Yeah, [00:24:30] [00:25:00] [00:25:30] [00:26:00] me too. [00:26:30] [00:27:00] [00:27:30] Yeah. No. Yeah. Why? Yeah. Um [00:28:00] um So, um, came down from and of course, now the area and also in which is the area. Um, I heard the sad news. I think it was about a week ago. I don't know if you've met Auntie White, but she was like a or, you know, and I'm really sad to hear that she's left [00:28:30] us now. Um, the other tributes I wanted to make is I think my worry is that with with youth, we forget how hard it's been. So like in the 85 you know, law reform days, that it's easier for us now because of our who have done the work beforehand. Um, and also Carmen, who would have heard of Carmen? Chrissy We particularly in the Wellington area, um, [00:29:00] in the Auckland area. Um, and there's these places that back in the day, um, Carmen's coffee lounge, um, I heard of the exotic, the balcony, the evergreen and I had no idea, You know, that all because all that we heard about was like there was pound and, um, like, now there's the ivy, but they only exist because of, you know, the our [00:29:30] brothers and sisters who have done their ground work earlier. I got, um, and I did some research, um, the books in my bag, but about Maori sexualities, and I don't think it can be understated the effect that Christianity and colonisation has had on, um, even the word is not the same [00:30:00] as it might have meant back in the day. And I think it was 18. 35. So even pre pre treaty, um, I just thought I'd mention a few personal notes because, um I don't know if, um, the guys in here might have had their father wanted them to be an all black, you know? And it was the thing that you were meant to aspire to. I don't think that's unique to Maori, but, um, so when that doesn't happen, And I think the other thing is, um, another [00:30:30] complication I had grown up was that if you've got who are black power or a mongrel mob trying to come out to those uncles Um, yeah, I guess there's no words that can describe how how difficult that kind of was because they want to acknowledge that your family. But if you're not kind of grow enough, you know, it's like, What are you Who are you? You know, you're not one of us. And, um, the other complication [00:31:00] is when you're the oldest male, there's this, um, responsibilities placed on you about that. You will continue the name and so forth. So you also have the disappointment, especially of your father. You know, your grandfathers and uncles that you're not going to contribute to that family life. And I just think, Well, I didn't, you know, one day, wake up and thought I'd conspire, you know, against you and, um, purposely [00:31:30] not have Children. Um, And when I came out to mum, I was about 18. She was worried that I was gonna be, um you know, that I'd get the best. And then I thought, surely, Mum, you know, like, all the fights I've seen my uncles, and I think I'll be all right, you know? But I remember she had real, um, concerns about that. But once you've seen a few uncles in action, it'll be all right. Um, the other thing is, um, my oldest uncle identified as [00:32:00] gay, And, um, it wasn't until he died that all the brothers suddenly, um, thought, Oh, now we're stressed, You know that we actually cared about you, and it was too late by then. And I remember one uncle even said was telling my dead uncle off for, um, making him cry. Finally, I thought that's your fault. You know, you didn't acknowledge your older brother, they just couldn't stand it. That the family representative was was gay. And, um, I thought, well, [00:32:30] too late now, so we don't really talk about about that because they're still not receptive. to being Maori. Being is not a good look, especially if you, um, to a signatory of the treaty. And you're trying to represent your, um, iwis, um, Treaty of Waitangi claim. So they didn't want the older brother at the forefront because he was, [00:33:00] um and I know this might sound a bit, but it's a vivid memory I have of a relationship I had with the father and, um, yeah, he put petrol in the car and he pressed full, and I was about 38 and I was like, I have never, ever, ever, ever from a background ever seen anyone push full on the on the thing, you know? And I was like, Holy shit, you know, it's like [00:33:30] I'm from a whole another world because he was raised, um, conservative, um, Christian style. So it was a real, um, eye opener as to how cultures can, I guess, collide in a relationship when you haven't lived in each other's world. So once put twice. So we will be very cautious in the future. Um, also, um, these are the sources if [00:34:00] you wanted to, because that's my, um, world view on things, but there's the uh, trust. The other book that I looked at was reclaiming the past to inform the future and, um, views of Maori sexuality, which is by Clive and Jessica Hutchins. There's also a book on by. He has a a little section there on homosexuality and, um, [00:34:30] I I wanted to end with because I went to this. Who in my greatest concern is that when we get or if you're not considered Maori enough or rainbow enough, that, to me is a real, um, it's a wrong basically, because I think we need to be, you know, 2013 enough, But these days to genuinely be inclusive rather than, like I said, you're not Maori enough [00:35:00] or you're not rainbow enough and discriminate against their own. Yeah, I what? Our name [00:35:30] called England. [00:36:00] Um, my name is Kim. Um, I prepare to talk. I'm, um I guess I'm, uh right now, I'm kinda pissed off and upset. Um, I'm gonna I'm gonna read my talk anyway, cos it kind of talks to some of the stuff that I'm upset about. Um, and maybe we can have a quarter at some point afterwards. Um, so the stuff I'm going to talk about today is kind of a follow on from some stuff that I talked about at clip [00:36:30] fest a couple of months ago. And if you're interested, I got a small voice. Tell, um if you can't hear me, can you wave out? OK, um, if you want to hear where this quarter, it all started, um, you can look on my blog, which is, um, and it's got my talk from clip fest. Um, I wanna start by talking about my background. Um, so I was born a few years back. Um, [00:37:00] and I was given out for adoption when I was born. Um, as I said in my my mother's my father's from. But my adoptive parents who were Parker were guaranteed that I I was fully park. Um, and that that guarantee that they were given meant that when I was growing up, I had pretty much no access to who I was and how I relate to this. Um, I've since [00:37:30] met my father, and he is really undeniably not, um So earlier this year, I talked to my birth mother about it, and I asked her if she knew that he was Maori, and she said that she didn't know and that she hadn't really thought about it. And we keep talking. And as we kept talking, it became clear to me that she saw my father as no. And when you grow up in a culture that doesn't talk about culture [00:38:00] where whiteness is normal, then even though my father is brown in a way that people aren't brown, she just assumed that he was white, just like all the other non white people she knew. She was from West Auckland. Um, she had lots of we talked about her. She had lots of non white friends that she just assumed were, and none of that's her fault. That's what white culture is. Um, [00:38:30] white culture makes whiteness normal and invisible. It means that we understand everything that's not obviously different or exotic, as normal and therefore is white. And that really hurts people because we feel like we have to perform to be recognised as something other than white, and that pushes us to extremes on a spectrum. And for Maori, especially, [00:39:00] that's really dangerous because we always get the shitty end of any dichotomy. I'm sure my mother would have recognised my father as Maori if he had acted violently or angrily. Um, if he had seemed poor and uneducated but because he came across as a nice, well, well spoken young man, she recognised him as white like her. Now I'm sure that you will know this, Um especially in relation to queerness like I. I know that. [00:39:30] Yeah. We all know unless you announce your sexuality in some way, everyone assumes that you're heterosexual. So if you know it, why am I talking about it? So I got asked to speak on this panel, which is called Takata Perspectives. And the first thing I noticed about the programme is that there's no panel called White People perspectives and there's pretty much never a panel called white perspectives on anything because the word that we tend to use for white per perspectives is reality. [00:40:00] I, I have an opinion on heaps of the stuff on the programme. I have an opinion on what should be on the programme. Um but instead I'm talking about Takata perspectives and I actually don't really know what that means. Um, so I wanted to start by reminding you about whiteness and culture But just because you don't notice it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It exists. We're all soaking in it. And it isn't just the way things are. [00:40:30] And the invisibility of that is really damaging The silo and the sidelining of Maori realities into perspectives is a safe way for you all to learn about our lives. But it's not that safe for us. Um, I wanna talk a little bit about the word. Um, so this panel is called Takata perspective. For the record, I don't identify as Tata. Um, it's [00:41:00] a word that I'm I'm really interested in, and I'm I really enjoy hearing y'all talk about the word. Um, but it's not a word that I've yet been convinced that I need to use. Um, it's a label that seems to resonate more with people who live in the city. Um, rather than provincial and rural people. Um, yeah, and I'd love to talk to you at another time. About about what you get out of the woods. Um, the reason that I don't identify as Tata [00:41:30] is the same reason that I don't like talking about queer and Maori communities, which is something that I often hear, um, at clip fest, I talked about how our creation traditions include gender and sexual diversity, and that that inclusion reflects how our considered that diversity to be, which is normal. Um, and I've talked about how colonisation brought homophobia and fixed binary gender roles in a culture that's based [00:42:00] on. I don't think we need a word for people who aren't heterosexual. I don't feel a need to set myself apart from my heterosexual pheno. What I do see is useful about the term is in acknowledging that the queer scene is otherwise dominated by, um, and I wonder if that's why it seems to be used more by people living in the city. So how does this come back to what I was saying about queering Maori communities? [00:42:30] Um, my understanding of the reason the L GP TT, i et cetera community started using the term queer. Um, it was partly about taking away an insult that gets used against us, but it's also partly about the meaning of queer, as in queering the pitch. So, um, you know it means to to spoil or disrupt. If is already inclusive of gender and [00:43:00] sexual diversity, then it doesn't need that sort of query. Any query in the sense of disruption happened with colonisation and with the introduction of Western hang ups. If there are Maori communities that aren't inclusive and and we know that there are what those communities need isn't they need putting, right. They need straightening. So it sounds like I'm playing [00:43:30] with language. Um, but for me, this is actually really important because the strategies we use in Maori communities where homophobia has become normal should be really different from the strategies used in homophobic communities. The problem in our communities is that sexual oppression is part of our culture. So that culture needs to get messed with. It needs to be queered, whereas the problem in Maori communities is that our culture has already been messed with [00:44:00] by colonisation and we need to return to Maori philosophies. So queer is a term for me. It works for but when we use it for Maori communities, we're making colonisation invisible. And when we use it for everyone, no matter what ethnicity or culture you're from, then we're again privileging as normal and our culture is invisible. So I guess that's what I'm talking about. um in [00:44:30] general and visibility I haven't read reread this part of my talk since since talking with other people. So I wrote this challenge and I wanted to put a clip for you, so I'm not sure how relevant it is right now. Um, the challenge was to support and to prioritise indigenous cultures and the answer to how you do that starts with getting Maori organisers and Maori advisor. When you put together programmes [00:45:00] so you don't put together a programme and then look for Maori to speak on your panels, you put together a programme that that reflects what Maori want to speak about and what we want to hear about. Um for this I appreciate the visibility and the centrality of trans people and and trans issues in this programme and I assume that that came out of the connections and relationships with the trans community. That's what needs to happen to make it safe for people [00:45:30] from any marginalised community to participate and to contribute. We need commitment. What? I mean specifically, by a commitment, um, I mean building genuine reciprocal relationships. That doesn't mean just asking people to get involved in your project. That means supporting their project Maori. Seeing as I'm talking about the perspectives panel, Maori have a long [00:46:00] history of generosity towards other people's projects. We have a long history of giving our time and knowledge to other people's stuff. Many of the people on this panel are stretched really thin on all the projects that we've been asked to support. This country is literally built on Maori generosity and I want to know how you're paying it back. If you and your [00:46:30] don't have genuine connections with Maori communities, make that your priority more than organising AAA Queer Festival or anything like that, make those relationships your priority. You have all the time in the world to show us that you are genuinely interested in supporting us on things that matter to us. And I look forward to seeing that happen myself. [00:47:00] Nicky Taylor. Um, now I personally don't actually identify as, [00:47:30] um I never have and most probably never will, um uh, to me is a It is, um uh, the use of the word has become more prevalent since the 19 eighties, and I believe that it's because, uh, a lot of urban Maori were, uh, Maori were trying to find a cultural identity within the urban environment when a lot of their cultural identity was [00:48:00] being lost. And a lot of people actually don't realise that that's why the black power was started. Um, the black power was actually recognised that, uh, Maori culture was being lost in the urban areas, and the black power was started to bring a lot of the Maori culture back into urban areas because a lot of Maori were losing their language, losing their culture. Um, and that was from a Maori perspective. Now they're working off the perspective of making money, and, um, they're [00:48:30] doing it all in the wrong ways. And they've lost a lot of their, um, respect within a lot of the communities because of that. Um, but yeah, just expelling them up there. But what I really want to talk about today is a love story. Um, and, um and this was really the origin of the word. Ok, um was the daughter of a chief, uh from who lived on [00:49:00] the shores of Lake. Um She met a from island named and became her lover, um, and was the bastardised child of the chief's wife So he was not her social equal. Um, and, uh, Maori culture. Uh, it was very class. Um, and if you, uh that's why there was a lot of, um For some, [00:49:30] there were a lot of, um, inter family relationships that happened just to keep the bloodline going, Um, and, well, because was not, uh, was social equal. Uh, her father, uh, banned her from seeing her. Uh, she wasn't allowed to use any to go and see him out on Macoy Island. So what she done, uh, she swam the 3.2 kilometres out to island. Um, and she was only guided by the sound [00:50:00] of Titan guy's flute. Um, playing his love song to, um And in the original story, I think you mentioned it, which was written in 18. 35 where it was written in Maori. And when it was translated, it was found out that actually had a name, Um, a same sex friend. Now, back then, it was actually accepted that their friendship was [00:50:30] a lot more than just a general friendship. You you can't actually say that their relationship was sexual, but, um, their relationship was accepted as more than that of his friendship. Um, and that was, uh, quite reflective, uh, throughout the entire, uh, Maori culture, because, uh, sexual diversity and gender diversity was greatly accepted. Um, were, uh, a lot more accepted back [00:51:00] then, um, prior to colonisation. Um, the only thing that happened was when, uh, the colonisers came through the Pacific Islanders, uh, through the Pacific Islands. They had already been introduced to a lot of, uh, other islands. Uh uh, Like, uh, uh, um, uh, uh, all that kind of stuff. And then they came to, uh and [00:51:30] they'd already known about, uh uh, uh, non gender conforming people within the Pacific island. And then they started, uh, wanted to wipe that up pretty much. Um, but back then, uh, non gender conformity and, uh, diversity was very much accepted in the Maori culture. Um, until colonisation came along. Um, and Christianity, uh, that really made it look a lot more unacceptable. Um, according to the [00:52:00] word of God, um, but the the the story of and, um because was so aggrieved at the way that Tiki was feeling because Tiki was very, very hurt that that had gone off with, um with so uh, actually organised for his younger sister to marry, uh, to comfort him and to be his friend and his wife. [00:52:30] And so that way, uh, could be very happy and still have that connection with, um but And he could still be together and still be in love. Um, now, the the word is to me, um, doesn't necessarily mean queer or gay, but it has been attached to that only because it was recognised that, uh, and, uh, were more than friends. Um, [00:53:00] I personally don't identify with because, um, it's just never been around me. Um, I was never really brought up, uh, around queer communities. Um, I was only really got involved with queer communities. Um uh uh, a few years ago, Really? But apart from that, I've really only lived my life, Um, and tried to really be under the radar a lot. Um, and I'm actually really grateful to be able to share this [00:53:30] with a couple of very good friends of mine. Uh, sitting right there. Um, my boss, actually from work, is here to listen. And my old from down in Christchurch is also here, so I'm very pleased to be able to, um share this side of what I used to do actually with them and also to be able to see a lot of you people, you wonderful people. But and in terms of, um it is, um I suppose, an identity and just like all the other identities. And, [00:54:00] you know, it's something that's more prevalent within Maori communities. But I mean, like any identity, I suppose if you want to identify that way, you can identify that if you really sort of feel that's how you identify, it's up to you if you want to. I personally don't but, um, and we live with the fight [00:54:30] that the ability to do oratory is the right of [00:55:00] the and in a colonised form always meant the leader, the one going out there doing it. It's just the opposite. The runner is to weave out the people and the weaves, the people together. And for me, a a great example of this was with [00:55:30] who wove people together. She didn't care where you were from. She wove them together. So for five or six years after her, after her passing and her going to her ancestors, the weaving was still strong, but for the new even to start we often have to unravel. And so what some of we are talking about today is unravelling some of the weaving that's been done already. [00:56:00] This is an opportunity for us to take part in a discussion. Sometimes it will be just speaking. Sometimes it may be debate. Sometimes it will be Well, tell them 22, [00:56:30] it will go back and forth and then maybe it will not end here because we keep weaving out. It is time for you to take part in the discussion. And believe me, as Maori, we are used to waiting. Welcome to speak to bring your ideas about what you have heard today or questioning. [00:57:00] Speak to us and let us speak to you to [00:57:30] um um But it's the the the corridor that, um, encompasses this, um, conference. Um, I just wanted to share my my, um, view on and being, uh, being Maori woman. Um, actually, I I just wanted to also acknowledge, [00:58:00] um, I had a friend in who was adopted, and when she was adopted, they were two parents were taught in Spanish, just but she was actually Maori, so I can, um yeah. Have a sense of, um, that process that you went through? I think for me, I It's how I I did find myself as changing as I change. And I do like the [00:58:30] because when I speak to people in Maori, that's the that comes to mind. Um, And I suppose I use different terms myself, depending on how I'm feeling and where I am, but, uh, come Oh, well, I came up the top care. [00:59:00] Um, I'm Cassie. And as some of you know, um, I was one of the organisers for, um, I have to thank you to do as much time as I want this time around, but I'm really excited about it coming together. I wanna thank everybody who's come here today, and I think, yeah, like, nobody had to do it. And I think that's a big thing. And so we definitely recognise and appreciate the generosity. Um, that you have the time that you have given to us here today. Um, I also [00:59:30] wanted to kind of discuss something because I I really, really want to um thank um, Kim sitting over there. Um, I found that just such an important important that you put forward. And I think a lot of it sums up a lot of the stuff that has been going on this weekend. And, um, I want to This is me. I'm part speaking for myself and I I'm part speaking for the committee because I'm going to be putting forward [01:00:00] something that the committee has been discussing and that, um a lot of the stuff that has gone down prior to this conference is that the queer Avengers, um, made a decision to exclude someone who was speaking, um, a person of colour who was going to be speaking on a panel on Sunday. And I think this is like a really important key part because we can't just talk about this stuff in theory without thinking about what it means in practise and what has been done in practise. So I guess I just [01:00:30] really want to say, um, I really want to apologise, um, and say sorry from the one of my heart. So, um, the process through which we made that decision was flawed, like it was really flawed. Um, we made a decision that was, um, making a decision on whether or not a person of colour was allowed to speak, and putting it straight like that is kind of like, really, really [01:01:00] not. OK, um, And in that we allowed the process to go That the person who had the problem that came up, um, was white. And the people who made the decision were white. And there was no space for a discussion with people of colour on that. And if they had been in that room and it's a problem that they weren't, then I think that would have gone entirely differently. And there would have been a completely different outcome. So I really wanna apologise personally. [01:01:30] Um, and on behalf of the Privileges Committee, if they're OK with that, I didn't Sorry, I didn't actually get admitted. Um, I really wanna apologise, because I think that it has sent a really clear message that, um, people of colour are not able to speak, and they're not able to voice any, um, concerns of racism, which are really, really important and valid concerns. And yeah, I want to say I'm sorry. That message has been sent, [01:02:00] but I don't want it to be like, Oh, I'm sorry. You're offended because that's not what I'm trying to say here. Uh, I just want to really recognise and acknowledge the hurt that has been caused there. And, yeah, thank you for the people who showed up and and spoke with us and spoke with me and are here speaking today, and it really means a huge lot. And I know personally, I want to go away and do a whole bunch of bunch of thinking and it's been Yeah, just thank you. Um, OK, [01:02:30] OK, can I, um can I ask a question to you? Um, is there gonna be like, what actions are actually happening from that after the apology? Is there like, what address? You know, will the committee get together and decide, You know, some concrete action so that that person has a chance to speak maybe to the group during this gathering or acknowledge like what they want to do with that [01:03:00] did agree, uh, that that that apology was like the committee's committee's decision. And we agreed that, uh, that we would, um, meet with, um, the caucus that's formed that the committee would meet with the with the caucus that's formed and, um talk, talk it through on the basis of that. That statement and that apology. Um, so yeah, that's, um that's the commitment we've made. Um, So if people want to take us up on that, um, yeah, there'll be space to do it, Um, during the weekend. Um, the specific [01:03:30] outcome in the action is that, um yeah, we want to have a discussion and probably with the people involved as to whether they would still be interested in speaking, because we're really aware that how it's gone about now are kind of We don't want it to be like a back pedalling. OK, you can come in and then it's some kind of token, a weird symbol. So what we wanna do is, uh, people want to come and speak because the process was flawed. I believe the outcome and [01:04:00] the decision made from that was flawed. So we don't agree with that, that, um, excluding someone from speaking because that whole the decision making wasn't a problem that makes sense. So we what? We're wondering whether or not that's something is open, and we can talk about it here, or we can talk about it wherever, Um, but I just wanted to publicly kind of say I can I just ask, why is it raised in this forum? I I because I don't [01:04:30] know what what the issue was. I suppose I was coming to a conversation about a particular coat hopper. But something's happened that I don't know anything about that I don't actually need to. Um, we did have a bit of a discussion at the very start when we had everybody in a boat. So I'm sorry to derail the conversation about something. But I did felt like it was very relevant to what had kind of been brought up [01:05:00] in the discussion, and I wanted to put that forward. So sorry, if kind of making it not clear. And there's probably quite a few people here who aren't really going to be on the exact same page just further to that. My understanding is we met as a corporate government that we are going to take up the offer, the tough to workshop, and then we can decide on the engagement from their understanding. [01:05:30] It perhaps I can also lead to that. So it's a question of racism. And so some of the things that, uh Kim talked about and responding to that importantly for the committee, not only how to address that particular issue that's come up, but what does it mean for the future? So its relevance, [01:06:00] in terms of perspective, is that that is still there. So that's and that's a good thing that we talk about it in this forum in this house because that's a that's a place to do it all together. There was a, uh, not necessarily shared by, uh, or discussed with others on the panel. Um, but, um, it was, uh, deliberately left open for that discussion to come in here [01:06:30] because it involved. And so I feel so for some, perhaps this was the place to have. That's why it's been. But I just thought I'd just make it quite clear what it's about. Uh, hello, everybody. My name's Shelley. And, [01:07:00] uh, I identify as Shelley. I'd like to say to Kim, thank you for your words. Touched me deeply. The opinions you expressed, um, echo very much my own feelings from my own personal research and studies. And I'll actually be talking, I think, to some of the issues that you raised, uh, when I'm on the next panel. [01:07:30] I would say that while we have, uh, in the wider society of New Zealand, all manner of if you like, uh, conflict and dealing with issues particularly between Maori and Pakeha. Uh, the the empowerment of Maori and how that appears in the pakeha mind to be a threat in and of itself. Um, again, I'll be sort of relating to how that evolves, Uh, or how I believe that has evolved. Uh, when I speak on my next [01:08:00] in the next forum. Um, but there is a ray of lights. I am involved with a group, uh, in the New Zealand Defence Force and those of you who have probably been gay, uh, do a N, and, um and, um, other articles will have read about the success that, uh, overwash the DF group achieved, um, recently and how that was publicly, Uh, pronounced. [01:08:30] Um, I have some regular contact with, um with Overwatch. I am an ex service person. Um, I spent 20 odd years running around the world, uh, learning about myself and and about people in general. And it became an important part of my journey to finding myself one of the things that, uh that Overwatch and the New Zealand Defence Force as such is assuming is a leadership role. And it has been my opinion [01:09:00] for many years that while the media and public discussion has Jerry talked about the brain drain from New Zealand, I have always disputed that that belief. We have doctors and surgeons, accountants driving taxis, so there's no shortage of intellect and brains in this country, none at all. The problem that we lack [01:09:30] is leadership running through a tonne of patch. Yes, Dr A. 10 times to me, we lack that our in much the way that the democracy that we think we have in our politics has been corrupted. So too has along with that our perception of leadership and I find it comforting. I guess that the New Zealand defence [01:10:00] force has has adopted a very responsible role in terms of its leadership within the wider community of New Zealand and the Overwatch Committee, very much supported by the certainly by the current chief of defence force is all about taking that leadership out to the wider community. The New Zealand Defence force wants to demonstrate that it is all about inclusion. The key about Overwatch is not just about [01:10:30] just about LGBTI community. It is also about racism and about all those other associated issues of marginalisation that affect each and every one of us. And so the New Zealand Defence Force is about proving that diversity is a strength, not a weakness. And they want to bring that word out to the wider community. I'm not sure how they plan to do that, but they are trying to demonstrate it within their own [01:11:00] with their own organisation. Unfortunately, having a bit of a setback recently in, uh in Afghanistan, Um, but they've taken very positive steps in trying to redress those sorts of issues. Certainly within the leadership within the defence force, there is no problems. They have openly gay and lesbian, um, recruits signing on and coming in and being positioned as as, um, as officers in leadership positions within the defence force. [01:11:30] That is, that is, um they're tending to head towards stereotypical roles in that in that particular way. But, um, and support lines are not exactly at teeth arm, uh, responsibilities. The message just, uh, slowly getting down to the lower orders. But there is a hope, I guess, for the way in which, uh, which we can see an example of of bringing people together. [01:12:00] Uh, there's perhaps lessons to be learned from from organisations such as Overwatch and as sort of Kut and some others have alluded to here and the way in which we go about our business, we tend to isolate ourselves into smaller groups or smaller communities without actually reaching out and and and bringing in the more diverse group. And while I understand certainly that there's a reluctance and certain attitudes towards the military as such, I think [01:12:30] it's adult and mature to recognise that the military, as it represents in New Zealand, is not so much about blood and guts and rape and pillage as as we've traditionally seen or perceived warfare. Uh, it is more about a social interaction and representing New Zealand's strategic interests and in positive ways in the way in which they support peace actions and others overseas. The argument about whether [01:13:00] that should be done with force of arms or others of own. But they can bring that back into the community. And I think that, um, you know, stretching out our hands to groups like Overwatch may well bring some, um, some lessons for us to be able to grow and and reach out to our wider community and elsewhere in the country. Do not I have a question for each of the speakers. What's [01:13:30] your vision of an ideal society and what kind of changes might be needed to get there? Yes, this we got or give example of one change that What? What's 11 change you'd like to see, you know, to get to get to where you are, which will be [01:14:00] for me. Uh, what? Most people forget that you live in Polynesia. Aotearoa New Zealand are the largest Polynesian islands in the world. The official name for this island is the the official name for the South is the official name for [01:14:30] the, um, the other little island of the island. Now, if you look at it, it makes sense. The simple reason is the ia a mai actually does look like a stingray. If you're actually high enough in space, it looks like a stingray, which is what the was. The is the Jade Isles. That's where the Greenstone comes from. That is why it is called that [01:15:00] you have the southern lights. That's where they actually come up. That's where Maori people saw it. They saw ah that they saw the stars actually flashing. You know, like you get the northern lights, the southern lights come from there. Another thing that I talk about is I hear this thing. Oh, Auckland's got the largest Polynesian population in the world. No, [01:15:30] Auckland has the largest non Polynesian na, uh, people in the world living in Polynesia. And that's the truth. We are Polynesians. You live on Polynesian Islands. You need to actually look at that. And II, I still get a bit of a thing when I hear people say they're European. But on a sometimes on an aeroplane This is what you will find. Are you European [01:16:00] or are are you Maori? Are you of Maori descent? I live here. You are of European descent. I am Maori. I haven't gone anywhere. And yet the racist thing is that we are of Maori descent. But you are normal. So just those types of things. [01:16:30] They may seem small, but when you see them, I just wanna say Nah, not right. Not right. One of my friends, um, about my car. He wants to see what it was like to come into this country. So he probably he was European. His father was to me. He was questioned at the border. But you're not the right colour. And so he said, Well, my mother is Maori [01:17:00] and my father is European or and they said that you should be putting down your Maori. What he was trying to do is saying is they made a fuss of it because he challenged them. And that's just a couple of other things. Just just for a moment, some of you might know that my partner was in the room, Bill Logan, and, um, not the easiest person to get on with someone first. OK, [01:17:30] but he he has recognised the racism that actually happens. We went to a couple of official functions, which I was the official guest at. And when we went in, they went right past me and talked to Bill. And you are here because and Bill said, I'm here because of him. When we went overseas, um, I took Bill. Um we decided that we we share things, but I wanted to take Bill on a holiday because he [01:18:00] was stressed to the max. So I went to everywhere we went, people offered him. The taxi first offered him everything first when if I was paying for a meal, they went to him and they looked at him. Are you sure that this man can afford to pay? Somebody asked me if I was this toy boy and I said, Well, pretty old toy. But they're mine. But those are the things [01:18:30] that individually, it may not seem so much. But when you see it happen, time and time again, people who don't know us will often assume that I am latching on to Bill because of his vast wealth. Devo but often with Maori people. Or I'm saying, probably with other people who have, um, [01:19:00] in the relationship. And those people love them very dearly, and we love that person as well. But people who don't know will often assume that I am a blud. That's what I'd like to stop it. Um, on on the, um when I sit on a train and like, I've got my bro shades on [01:19:30] and my beaming the reaction is so different to I remember, I was working at to head off on at the time. And when I was dressed up in whole suit and tie thing, it's so different. And I was thinking, I am the same person, but you obviously gonna treat me so differently here and here, whether I'm looking like a bro, you know, and or whether I've scrubbed up or not. But I think they've a genuine consultation. Would be, um, leaps and [01:20:00] bounds from what Maori would get at the moment rather than after the fact you know, the decisions preordained anyway. And also, I don't like that we get lumped into this multicultural or you're just another ethnicity. So I think recognition, um, that we are the indigenous people of a not just another multicultural from overseas. Someone around them. [01:20:30] Yeah, um, I'd I'd go back to, um, AM is one of my teachers. AM says Maori is the first law of a It's the only legitimate law of a That's what I see as a a change. Mhm. My my idea about, uh is, um, my father and I pay whatever they want to be. Um, I refuse [01:21:00] to to, um, to think of myself as being anything less than anyone else. And so I try not to get caught up. And, like so we all have who don't come out and then turn to drugs or turn to alcohol because they don't know what to do. Um, and said, uh, because So if they're mixed up within themselves and I think you can try [01:21:30] in terms of taking out, then a whole lot of things flow on from there. Um, and of course, our context of living in a today, um, is another contributing factor, if not the contributing factor. So I just want my farmer to be whoever they want to be, whatever they want to be and that they can do it. Um, without any, um, barriers based [01:22:00] on who they are, where they come from. Just because that's what I wanted to do. So yeah. Oh, I suppose for me, um, I my I suppose my gender identity not defining who I am, um would be extremely important. Um, I'm actually there now. Um, I've got a good job. [01:22:30] Um, I work with good people. Um, I've got a good home life. Um, so I'm I'm there now, but it's it's a pity that there are still, um, many, many people who, um, have the gender or their sexuality define who they are, and people can actually can't see past that. Um, and people are judged because of it and are put into a box. Um, [01:23:00] that are different. Um, And when people can actually start seeing the person to the person, um, see that they're actually a lot more than, um, their gender or their sexuality. You know, they are, um, a daughter, a son, a grandson, a granddaughter, an auntie, an uncle, a mother and a father. That has to be right. And [01:23:30] can I say something personally to you? Um, I think a lot of people laugh when you ask that question, but, um, I think it's there's a lot of fear that comes from asking questions in a space like this in public speaking. So I just hope you weren't discouraged by people laughing after you asked that, Because even though it was like I wasn't discouraged, it would be nice, you know, because often often if these and if we do talk about the war, what [01:24:00] is happening right now and the the problems and the issues. But as always, Not enough time to talk about where we want to go and how to get there. That's both things. OK, thank you. Um, I guess I wanted to return to you. The point made about the invisibility of whiteness for those of us that are white in the room Because I feel like not only do we get to see the world [01:24:30] through, um, lenses that make us normal in almost every situation we're in. But when we get challenged for racism, the invisibility of whiteness makes it really hard to hear that and respond from anything other than defensiveness. I think, um and I loved hearing what your world your perfect world look like. I guess, um, part of creating [01:25:00] a perfect world around race is white. People listening when people of colour tell us that what we are doing is not OK. I really, um, respect both Ian and Casey being able to say here. And now that the processes you guys went through, you don't feel we OK? Responding when we've got it wrong is one thing. Setting up situations so that we don't get it wrong in the first place is another. And I want to again thank him for acknowledging that that that's [01:25:30] actually about real relationships. It's about listening to one another in the first instance. Yeah, you think what we're trying to say is we are not the problem. We are not the problem who thinks that I end up. Kim brought up a very interesting word. [01:26:00] To do it correctly is the plural of th to do things correctly, not you. The weaving I talked about before with you. Our weaving was done with natural fibre and after a while, natural fibre, no matter how strong, it actually does fade. That's what it's gotta do. It's gotta break in order that we start [01:26:30] the new weaving with your food basket and my food basket. [01:27:00] But it is shared what we bring to the table. We may be able to feed a wider community. The end of the heart, the spirit, the soul, whatever you want to go with often what it is. Maori people often feel that we do bring our basket, but it's put to one side, so you're over there and the rest of us will be here. Please [01:27:30] let me remind you that if you put women Maori and you put the gay community. You put the sau the Asian community and that we are the majority. We are the majority. We want to work with you but we want to work beside you Not here or not Oh, let's bring the younger one up We are not [01:28:00] That argument is good. You say keep going Keep going because your weaving will become stronger out of it To all our speakers today, [01:28:30] they're not, you know, we're the people we the people. My sister a few years ago was at one of these not different, but the way was great. We're going to be bicultural and understand. But we had one hour to do our thing and the rest the had [01:29:00] three days. Right before it was great. My sister went up and she was a good organiser. This was about 20 years ago, she said. I want to have a I wanna have a bicultural and said Oh yes, that'll be great she said. I'm going to give the Maori 2.5 days to talk about things and you're going to have an hour and the party has said no, no, that's racist. That's racist. She got the money. She brought the people down. They had to have a separate because people at that [01:29:30] time said No, you cannot run. And this actually happens in colonising, even our own people. We will often say to Maori people who are getting up or you're getting above yourself or you actually have. You're the you're the boss of pay our people. How can that be? That must be pretty dumb. Not realising that that we work sometimes a lot harder. Sometimes we get to a lot [01:30:00] smaller space. I'm not blaming you for the past. That was That is stupid. That is stupid. But I will actually come at you again if I come back in three years and we still haven't done the change. And that's for the Maori people too. [01:30:30] I don't want to clap because in Maori, when you clap in a meeting house like this, you'll say, get out. And you might feel that. But it wouldn't be so rude because you're good people. So I'm gonna say to you this and then you're gonna repeat it back after Fuck. Yeah, Not bad. Give mine to the back to back to me.
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