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So welcome to the access and disability discussion I'd like to introduce to our fabulous panellist. Andy is, um, gender queer, autistic and otherwise MA a typical activist and writer and doctor Wood is an expert on the safe driving, which is not super relevant to anything she will be talking about. But she has plenty of other opinions to share, so I'll hand over to them. [00:00:30] Hi. I'm, um I'll try and sort of link disabled driving to this talk about sexuality. It's always nice to link sex in cars, but, um, and gender and stuff like that. Um, so the first point I was gonna make I scribbled this down this morning while my puppy was trying to eat off my plate and like, drag my arm down while I was trying to drink tea like [00:01:00] this. And I was like, Ah, it was over my computer and it was very stressful. But the first thing is, why is excess important? Um, because when you have mobility issues like I do and you get to a place and you go up to what you think is the desk and they're like, I don't know, go down there and turn right, and the only place you can find is like a door. The only door that opens is like, got stairs in it and right in front of it. And it's quite stressful. And there are no signs, [00:01:30] and it makes you super late. And that's because you went back to sleep after your puppy woke up at 6. 30. Um, so, yeah, in general, uh, excess is important because, um, if if people don't have access, then they can't participate. And I think that participating in life and in society is really important. Um, you know, being able to do things with your [00:02:00] life. And that was what I talked about, um, and my studies I was looking at driving and how they enabled participation. But really, it's just about, you know, the means. Whatever means you have need or are capable of getting to do what you want to and need to deal with your life. Um, also, I think access is really important in activist groups for solidarity reasons. Um, because you [00:02:30] have to think about basically what it means is like you have to think about who you're exploiting, um, by not making sure things are accessible or not asking how things could be accessible or not communicating options and not like being wrong about how you provide it and that kind of stuff. Um, so I think that stuff is really important. But when I say access, I really just mean the ability to join in in anything. Um, and you know, there are lots of ways in which the access is really complicated. [00:03:00] Um, you know, it's not just about that. There are no stairs, though. That's particularly useful for me, because people have really different, Um, you know, things that they need for the world to be accessible. And for people here, most people need, like, some form of transport, and they need, um, to have doors rather than like cat doors to get through. [00:03:30] And if you're using a wheelchair or a mobility scooter, you need a entrance way bigger than the cat door and maybe bigger than a normal door to get through it and that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it's just kind of, um, it's really complicated. It's and it also I mean, in my experience is with mobility, physical stuff and access. But there are lots of other ways that people need access and there are issues [00:04:00] of, like, kind of sensory things. Um, and there are, you know, like, there are issues of, you know, people who maybe can't read text and need signs with pictures on them. Um, and they may need, um, or they might need somebody to come with them. So there's so many. There's so many ways in which you can make something accessible. And, you know, the I'm actually writing a list at the moment about how to make [00:04:30] government, like government like things accessible. Um, and it's really long. It's a really long guide. Um, so it's quite complicated, but I think a really important thing to do is like, think about it and communicate What? Um, um, like, find out from people, um, what they require to participate in something. And you know what? Because [00:05:00] people are like, you know, if people if they're people that you know and you're trying to get along to stuff, then people are usually pretty happy to just be like, Oh, can you Can you you know, is there anything in particular that it would be useful and that kind of stuff and people are usually pretty happy to to say, Yeah, I need this and that kind of thing. Um, I was gonna talk generally about my experience of being disabled and activism, and then I was gonna talk a little bit about Queens. But I know that [00:05:30] heaps of time has been wasted, so but there's also only two of us to do what you want to My experience of heathen arthritis and stuff is, um, some things I'm just like I sort of have to deal with issues of, like, tiredness and kind of or pain or whatever is going on. So there's that kind of stuff that might kind of mean that it's a [00:06:00] I'm less motivated or so. Maybe I'm just a person who likes lying around and watching TV as well. But, you know, like there are issues that, um, some people are gonna deal with tiredness. I also, um, have, like, depression issues. Um, I'm really shy, actually, in groups, which is sort of often discourages me from, like a being an activist groups because I'm quite shy around people I don't know. [00:06:30] So I was probably gonna be quite I'm quite emo today, and I've got a headache and my period, and I'm tired. But anyway, I'm quite shy because, um, often when you go into groups, when I meet people, I don't know if you're gonna be, you know, Dick kids or not. So, um, you know, there are so many times that I've, um, like, going to places, and people have just said, you know, fucked up things to [00:07:00] me or, you know, gotten drunk And then, like, I can ask you anything about your body and your life. And it's totally my business and that kind of stuff. Um, yeah. So there's the issue of being shy, so usually with small groups of people or people I know. And people I know have, like, already decided that I'm OK and I already know that they're not gonna be dicks. I'm like, quite a friendly, extroverted person. But, [00:07:30] um, yeah, in groups, I'm actually quite reluctant to join it. Um, also this often kind of like issues some embarrassment about, like whether I can participate and stuff or not. And that can mean like, um, I think a lot of people know there's quite a lot of dramas at the beginning of the year about, um, that being feminist collective and that, like, access and all that kind of stuff. And it was all very drama. Um, but like [00:08:00] a lot of people talked about, kind of, you know what is accessible and is it a thing accessible when, um, you have assistance and that kind of thing, and it's like, Well, yes and no. And I've kind of as an adult always had to kind of make these decisions about Do I want to do something enough to have the embarrassment of being, like, carried up the stairs or, um, you know, carried into things and lifted and all this kind of stuff that [00:08:30] I don't like doing because it's embarrassing and it's really and it's sometimes painful, um, to be lifted. And, you know, it's the whole thing of being picked up by somebody you probably don't know because they're the biggest person who's willing to, like lift you and that kind of stuff. Um, so you know, we not to say that I don't do it, and there are some places where and like it is worth it to me because I really like going [00:09:00] out to music and they're basically, like No, um, like, accessible venues in Wellington. There are very few that are accessible. And so sometimes I'm kind of like I'm not gonna, like, give up the opportunity to, like, do stuff, because it's embarrassing and not painful. And you know, that kind of stuff? Um, yeah. So does that kind of experience of, [00:09:30] um, um, like, kind of joining in and participating and having access to the world outside my very accessible house. Um, so, yeah, um, I thought that's a really interesting thing that somebody said to me the other day that, um, a lot of Children who are deaf or have hearing impairments assume that, um, they will grow out of it because, um, [00:10:00] none of the adults around them have your own parents or are deaf. And I was kind of like, Whoa, that's really weird and sad. And then I was like, Oh, I actually know. That's totally how I always thought about my life when I was a kid. You know, like you think about what you wanna be and do when you're an adult. And, um, um, none of those things were being disabled, you know, and I think that That's kind of part of the lack of access [00:10:30] to the world and the lack of role models. And actually, if you don't make sure that access is very important, then you don't get to see people in the community like I mean, a lot of times I I don't see disabled people, and obviously not all disabled people maybe look disabled or anything like that. But, um, yeah, like, there's not a lot of people that you see, maybe who are adults who have the things [00:11:00] that, you know, I wanted as an adult. And I still see that, you know? Um, yeah, so that's kind of the some of the issues of access. Kind of as well, my personal issues of access. Um, I was just gonna talk a little bit about, um, Queens and, um, disability. Um, uh, I'm not sure. I kind of I think lots of people actually think [00:11:30] I'm quiet, but I don't actually, I don't actually identify like that. Um, but I kind of like I have a lot of, um I feel like I there are some aspects of queerness that I understand and have empathy with, um in terms of like and I and I And I'm not gonna say, because I know that some people talk about, uh, having like a a body with impairments or anything [00:12:00] like that is like, this is kind of like this. Some people talk about that they that their bodies or their gender or their sexuality has been queered because it's disabled. And I don't know if that's appropriate. Um, but there are There are Yeah, I don't know if it's appropriate, and I don't know if I would say that my gender or my sexuality or whatever has been queer, but [00:12:30] it's very much been other and made strange. And, um, yeah, maybe queer. And they're, like, kind of old fashioned sense of the word, and it's very much been made marginalised, and it's very much been made unacceptable. Um, and I think that, um, yeah, like how I respond to gender and sexuality. Stuff is maybe there's some similarities. [00:13:00] Like, um, I think a lot of people who have physically impaired bodies um uh, can often be seen as, um um, well, often seen as asexuals. You know, like actually, um, a lot of disabled bodies are not seen as sexual and they're certainly not seen as desirable and that kind of stuff, Um, which isn't to say that. I mean, obviously some [00:13:30] disabled people are as, um and some people who are disabled don't identify with the gender. But I think that I've often kind of reacted to, like, kind of the gender stuff by I mean, maybe not today, But there's quite a lot of joking about how I'm quite obsessed with short skirts and stuff like that. And, um, and I think it's that part of thing of, like, a bit of a fuck you like, you know, I do want to [00:14:00] be seen as female and sexual, and that's, um so it's something that I kind of push back against, and I So I do think that there's an element of reaction to that. Um, and I very much understand, or I very much identify with the ideas of, like, passing and in some ways coming out because I always kind of wanted to. I was actually [00:14:30] like, terrified and stressed out when people kind of commented on my body because it was like I couldn't pass, you know, and um and I think I'm a lot less concerned of passing than I used to be. And it's taken me quite a long time to, um, um wants to for it not to be something that I'm trying to hide. But even [00:15:00] though I can't hide it, you know, like there was always an element of, like, I would do everything I could to try and so that people didn't notice. But of course, it is the first thing that people notice, you know? Um, yeah. So, yes, I'm not sure what else I'm gonna say about that. But if anybody has any questions, sorry for all the crying. I'm not quite sure where they came from. A quick question. Do you actually, um, spend much time [00:15:30] connecting with other people online through through any of the the groups or just, you know, other areas? What groups do you mean? Well, either you know, feminist groups or, um, um, disability groups or just social groups or or chatting. The reason why I ask is a friend of mine who has cerebral palsy is nonverbal. He is really active on the Internet because for him, we are connecting up with with other people, and, um and then you meet them in real [00:16:00] life and finds that they know you as as friendly as they were online. And it's just he finds it a mixed challenge. Um, well, I spend a lot of time on the Internet downloading television anyway crash and posting pictures to to I mean, I have a lot of friends. That's not really the issue. Um, I spent 90% of my time with feminists. You know, um, [00:16:30] that's not the issue for me. Um, and I don't think that's an acceptable solution at all, too. And a lot of people do talk about that. It's very important for disabled people to be online, but actually I kind of have a big problem with that. If that's like a huge problem with that, if it's like, we don't need to make the rest of the world accessible, because what we should just do is shove because there were people in front of computers and feel like you have [00:17:00] Internet access. So therefore we don't need to bother with the rest of the world. Um, and I think that a lot of people develop friendships and relationships and communities through participating in things, um and not that online communities aren't communities. But, um, not everyone wants to have their communities just be online. And to me, um, I don't really [00:17:30] like me. Yeah, I don't really like many people online. I'd rather actually saw me before. I have, uh, community, uh, like, you know, kind of relationships with them and that kind of stuff. Um, yeah. And I think that being excluded from a lot of work and a lot of social activities a lot of that stuff is about, um, being able to physically be in places [00:18:00] and to be in spaces that are accessible and you and and accessible in lots of ways, not just physical. It's accessible but socially accessible. And yeah, attitudinally accessible. Hello. I'm just a little conscious of Tom, so I wonder if maybe, and you would like to speak next, and then we can open up the book for sure. Everyone's happy with it, OK, I wrote a thing. I'll half [00:18:30] read it. Um, so I'm going to talk. Um, mostly personal experience here and sort of about the emergence of both my autistic and queer identities. And I'm using, like, labels are complicated. I'm using autistic to include a whole range of diagnoses, sort of information processing, physical movement, how I think how my senses work and so on. And, um and queer, I'm talking about both sexual orientation [00:19:00] and gender identity. And, um, yeah, I was thinking back when I wrote this and just remembering as a really small child, having the sense that I needed to hide who I was and not knowing what I needed to hide. So I hid everything and just knowing that it was wrong and with the benefit of hindsight, I know that the ways I had to hide, we related both to being queer and being autistic. And then I was doing some reading for this talk and, um, 11 thing I discovered that I didn't know was [00:19:30] that much of the therapy aimed at normalising autistic Children grew out of that aimed at normalising gender, non conforming Children. And I avoided such practises, luckily, but sort of the dual experiences of being out of sync with and marginalised in the world I lived in, but meant that my artistic and queer experiences were very much tied together before I could identify either one of them and, [00:20:00] um, as a child. Sort of. The one glimmer of gender nonconforming possibilities that I had was that of a tomboy, and that's too excited me, and then was really quickly closed off to me. I realised I was physically unable to climb trees. The sensation of mud gets away from me. Um, I was too anxious to go off and get lost. But then the stereotyped femininity that was expected to come naturally to me was also unobtainable, like I still can't apply lipstick competently. [00:20:30] Um, I try on occasion, Um, and you know, social rules of teenage gossip? No. And absolutely someone can be feminine or masculine, irrespective of whether these stereotyped activities are possible or even desirable for them. And I think one thing the queer community needs to be really aware of in terms of accessibility is how much we link identity and membership with appearance and clothing and so on. When these can be inaccessible for all kinds of reasons. [00:21:00] Um, but also, this exclusion from both masculinity and femininity has been really key for me in the formation of my gender identity. And it's something which is often ignored in narratives that often come back to you. know this was innate from birth. Um, I've always struggled with the idea that gender identity is so some inherent truth that just needs to be allowed to emerge. Um, of course it is for some people, but for me, it's more [00:21:30] complex and ongoing negotiation with the society environment I live in. And, um, reading and learning about disability was really important in understanding how that could work. And another thing I've realised is there's this huge correlation between autistic people, particularly female, that signed up birth people and those who don't fit comfortably on the gender binary, um, who are attracted to multiple genders or who are asexuals. And there's lots of theory about why that might [00:22:00] be a lot of it really offensive. But that's beside the point. I think the correlation is there. And, you know, I've had conversations with these people over and over again who would never see themselves as part of gender diverse or queer communities. And some of that comes back to access in a straightforward sense. The tendency for queer events to be centred around noisy bars, for example, or that we can be marginalised by people wanting to prove that they're the good, normal queers. OK, whatever they call them anyway. Um, [00:22:30] and, um, it's also because people, um, people often see their gender identity. The people I'm talking about often see their gender identity or sexuality, um, as being so intrinsically related to, or even a facet of being autistic that they don't find a space for that narrative in queer and gender diverse spaces. And this isn't my experience or perspective, but it's also something I relate to a little, [00:23:00] and I'm trying to sort of learn more about this and get my head around it. And I think at the heart of it, we need to be really open to the fact that even for people working on and thinking about gender and sexual diversity issues, we can always get more diverse. Um, and and, um so? And I've also been coming across a word that's been increasingly used, which is neuro queer, and 11 blogger described it as meaning. I approach my autism like I approach my [00:23:30] gainers, and I was in a slightly odd position of being involved in queer activism before I really came to grips with being queer or being autistic and although I didn't didn't escape the usual of self hatred. When I dealt with that, it gave me a lot of tools to understand that. And I was looking at it in the context of marginalised identities and a history of political responses to oppression rather than simply an individual experience. And, um, when comparisons [00:24:00] are used as a blunt tool to make a point, they often really problematic. A couple of years ago, within basically the same week, um, I went to a queer activist meeting where people started saying that people wouldn't be allowed to get away with treating disabled people like this. So why are they treating gay people like this? And then a week or so later, I went to a meeting of an autistic where someone said, We need to get equality like all the gays have done. I just don't do that shit. But I think there's, um you know, I think there are a lot of conversations I'd really like to [00:24:30] see happening. Um, I'm thinking about coming out and the limitations of coming out narratives about passing for normal, whether normal is straight or CIS gender or neurotypical, um, about treatment aimed at normalisation and medicalization. Um, I'm thinking in particular, there are debates going on at the moment about whether autism should be in the DS M diagnostic statistical manual psychiatrist Bible thing, Um, and the conflict between not seeing it as a medical disorder but needing to present it [00:25:00] as such in order to secure access to various resources. Um, and things about E Asia from history. And, um, the experience and expectation of sever links with the family are just a few of the things that are going I had, um I'd just like to say, obviously, that was very much from personal experience, and I can only talk so fast, so I'm really open to sort of experience of how people link queerness and whatever experiences of disability in the comments. Thank you. [00:25:30] Does anybody have any questions for our panellists? Well, I can, but you know, of course, you know, disclosure. You know, I'm I'm I'm queer. Asperger's, you know, the the whole range of, you know. No, no boundaries. Um, sort of always sort of asking sometimes really bad questions. [00:26:00] Um, which is? Both Esther and Andy are talking about some of the isolating challenges which I think is, you know, really, really important. But I just wondered if if either or both of you have got sort of ideas about, you know, yes, we want to change society, we want to change all of the structures and everything else. But are there things that other people can help do to support Other than, [00:26:30] you know, like raising awareness of Yeah, the signposting to get here was bad. The the maps weren't adequate. We should have had had these sort of things. But, like, you know how I'll jump a little bit. My my friend down in Christchurch, who's a young gay guy who's really interested in dating, who meets up with people online and then says, Oh, let's go to some they say, Oh, yeah, let's meet at that nightclub because it's really good for dancing. Oh, hello, I'm in a wheelchair. Are you going to carry the wheelchair up? Sort of few things, and he does get people to do that, but it's like, you know, really [00:27:00] difficult. But that's the support the friends do to help him get to places that he can do things and try and stop people from, um, putting drinks on his communication tray and things like that. But like that, you know, helping somebody to get to a space is something they try to are other things you can think of that might be helpful to, you know, overcome all the social gap that we haven't got rid of. You're magical list, don't you? Yeah. I mean, but that's [00:27:30] not gonna apply to public social places like bars and restaurants and movies, because they don't have any obligation to be accessible. Um, they don't have any obligation to, um, unless it's like a newly built thing. And then there are some standards, but the standards are pretty basic. I mean, I [00:28:00] I'm I'm not quite sure I like I'm not quite sure again how you worded it, but I guess my initial thing is no, there's nothing that I mean, yes, I have incredibly good friends and who do do things to make things easier for me and to mean that I can be, um, uh, included in stuff. But actually, that's not the point at all. I mean, of course, it's awesome. And I [00:28:30] love my friends. You know, they're incredibly important to me, but actually, the problem is not needing support of friends because not everyone actually has heaps of friends. Not everyone has heaps of support of friends, you know, like even if you've got friends, they might be clueless and just, you know, they don't get it and all that kind of stuff. But the problem is not. I think personal support is incredibly important as a survival strategy. But that's not gonna change [00:29:00] anything. You have to change things on a societal level. So are you talking more event organisers? What should event organisers be doing? I mean, if we think about activism, Spaces and and, um, like if a group of people say, Hey, we don't want the government to buy a national park, what they do is they start connecting, they start raising sort of, you know, campaigns doing things. If it's something like, um, a bar in Courtney Place [00:29:30] is, um, disrespectful to, um, two young women sort of kissing. And, you know, there's talk about boycott letters or, you know, it's like, what, what are the best avenues to actually, um, you know, organise together around sort of, um, issues. And, um, that was one of the reasons why I sort of did this thing in groups online because, you know, I see it as a possible way, but that it may not be the experience of of other people. So I mean, I think all methods I mean, like, you know, things change [00:30:00] by, you know, you have solidarity with people and you support people, and you be like, Yeah, it, um yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, like like any kind of activist thing. You know, people decide what they think, and it's not always gonna work, and it's not always gonna get attention. And it's not always gonna change anything. But, you know, they still people still kind of join in and they go, Yeah, what do we need and and that kind of stuff, [00:30:30] you know, like it's the same as any other kind of activism you get. You need people and you need support and you need solidarity between groups and one of the like disability kind of organisations in New Zealand. Um, they they spent heaps of their time when they were starting out in the seventies and eighties, um, having, um like showing lots of solidarity to, um like queer communities and like [00:31:00] putting heaps of support behind like the like getting rid of the like, um, you know, the like 1986 Homosexual law reform. They put heaps of support behind it, you know, because they're like, it's the whole thing of, like, liberation for one group of people is gonna help, you know, like it's important. And also, of course, there are, like, gay disabled people who maybe wanted to have sex with other gay disabled people. But yeah, I mean, [00:31:30] like, it's the same as any kind of activism. You know, you just do thanks things that you think will work about issues that you think are reported. And you try and get people to support you and you try and get awareness and you try and make things change. How any other questions? I haven't got a question as such. It was more of an observation. You pretty much just spoke to it, really, as a solidarity and the connections that we can make between so many [00:32:00] marginalisation, you know, aspects of life, and it's quite incredible when you actually sit down and really give it some thought that that is the answer to everything. It's a solidarity and working together. And if every marginalised person on the planet got together with probably beat out everybody else. Um um, so, yeah, has anyone else got any thoughts they want to share or other other things they want to say? Because I'm thinking maybe we probably [00:32:30] wrap up if that's OK with you, too. If there's no one's got anything pushing, they wanna raise. Yeah, this is actually a question that I ask you afterwards. I remember. But, um, I also think he both of you for sharing. I wonder if I could get a copy of the list of things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I said, it's gonna be on the Ministry of Health website. I think that should [00:33:00] be a fantastic step towards activism is to make sure that when you finish with that list that we make sure that we pressure every government department to make sure they're adhering to it. And there's more people that demand that those sort of things. And the more some things are being forced through, like the Web accessibility is going, uh, it's It's like the the access accessibility standards come in And all, um, main pages [00:33:30] and contact pages of, um, all government websites or or websites in the state sector are gonna have to be, um, Web accessible by July next year. So and then within three years, every page of every website, um, run by anyone in the state sector is gonna have to be web accessible. Web accessible. It means, um um, that website, um, have to be, [00:34:00] like, as intuitive as possible, um, to minimise mistakes. Um, they have to be like any kind of verbal things. Like, if you've got a or if you've got kind of graphs, then they have to have descriptions underneath them. If you've got, um, somebody talking, then you have to have, like, a person doing sign language or and you have to have, like, heaps and heaps of different methods that people can understand the content. And also, um, you have to be able to use the website without using a mouse [00:34:30] that has to be keyboard at all. You have to be able to do it all by keyboard and stuff like that. Yeah, so those are the kind of technical things, and then it it just has to be as kind of hard to make mistakes as possible and is easy to like. Go back and start again. And like, if you've got websites that have time limits on them, they have to be able to be, like, extended really easily and that kind of stuff, so that if people are doing need to do something slowly, yeah, so that's one way that you can make [00:35:00] government, and they're hitting those websites sort of tested by people with different sensory challenges. So, for example, if your official line and use, um, software that can read out a web page to you, then it's actually do that because it can't read an image. But there may be a description that says what an image is. All of the test ones are not having many pictures, but that, you know, it's not true. It's good, but like bad things, I've attended some presentations [00:35:30] to. All right, cool. Um, yeah. Sorry. Um, I think you almost answered my question. You know, I was just like I was just gonna ask, like, um in terms of the last thing you know to look at. Um, So it's not Is it limited to physical? Um, not like my physically accessible. [00:36:00] No, No, no. Um, no, it's censor impairments. And, um, some learning impairments. And so things like, um, yeah, like I mean, easy read text, large print text. Um, um, Pictures. But like, it's basically so that everything is, you know, compatible in a variety of ways for lots of different people. [00:36:30] In a beautiful moment of irony, the, um, submissions on the inquiry into the accessibility of parliament required you to put a phone number in before you could make a submission. Yeah, it was quite fantastic. Lots of and lots of, uh, government documents are, um, like you can't use Don't use PDF S if you want them to be accessible or use PDF S, but make them like, um, have an identical word document because, um, um, programmes that read documents [00:37:00] for people with visual impairments. Um, can't do PDF S stuff like that. So there's lots of different technical stuff, but it's also about attitudinal stuff. Oh, right. Yeah, OK. Yeah. I mean, you know. Yeah, it's basically like, don't talk down to people. Don't Don't look at somebody's, um, attendant carer. If you're [00:37:30] supposed to be communicating with them, make eye contact with the person you're supposed to be communicating with? Don't be a jerk. Um, I'm trying to make sure that make that really clear, That sort of stuff, Um, I'm trying really hard to like. It's basically like courteous, courteous interactions with human beings, letting people know where that I don't think I'm going to get the human beings in. Let people know where the toilets are, you know, so [00:38:00] that they think, 00, this is actually just some common courtesy and it's like, Yeah, it is common courtesy. It's really common courtesy to be like, this is where the toilets are. And, um and if you can't hear me say that, then I will. Or if you can't see it, I will take you to it. You know, that's just courteous. And that's a really big deal, you know? So, yeah, stuff like that, Yeah, yeah, And it's something that I think we can all do [00:38:30] our I think because like when you start work or engage in a new building, one of the things I'm trying to do is find out what the accessibility is tonight and one windows, and it was a an accessible toilet that was locked off and nobody knew the code to it because they hadn't sort of used it. So I was thinking, Oh, when people come to visit, how are they going to do it? So we you know? Yeah. Eventually, I found it and sort of shared the information. I had to walk up and down all of seven floors of the building to actually find somebody who knew who knew the [00:39:00] Alright, please join me in thinking.
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