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Everybody. Welcome back for this evening session. I should introduce a panel with apologies. First that were too short. Not too short, but too, um, to Logan, I'm sure is familiar to many of you as a family member of proven. He is a longtime troublemaker. Um, we have standing in tonight [00:00:30] for Catherine Callum and a who works with Catherine, and we'll be talking about similar stuff, including the And there we have Joe Wrigley as a member of Out at work, the Council of Trade Unions, Network for lesbian, gay, bisexual, intersex, Transgender and five union members. So they'll give their wee presentations in a moment. We'll just have a hopefully have a really fantastic discussion. So cool. Thank you. [00:01:00] Go up. It would be nice to be able to say that when people are fucked over when they're oppressed, they naturally ally with one another, unite with one another, respect one another, and everything is happy, but it don't actually in practise easily work out that way. The truth is that [00:01:30] because oppression oppresses because people are fucked over by their economic circumstances by the shit they face in life, they're sometimes not actually in the best position to judge how to make alliances or even what's in their own interest, let alone what's decent. And so we fuck each other over, and that's the truth of it. And [00:02:00] it happens all over the place. Um, and we notice it in the different rivalries we have. Uh uh uh, in our political campaigns, we notice it, uh, and and we are usually assure that we are in the right and the other person isn't. And that's not always the case. I noticed this first, I think [00:02:30] probably in the early days of the AIDS scare, when we were all absolutely terrified and we started to learn something about HIV aids and we were being got at. We were being got at by the media and we were being got out by authority in general and gay people were being seen and pointed out [00:03:00] as the carriers of this terrible disease which could be caught off, uh, door knobs and things like that. But gay people were responsible for it, and, um, it was a terrifying situation. It was a AAA disease which was going to kill you very, very quickly. And there was this huge phobia that developed about her. And in that context, they developed [00:03:30] a kind of hierarchy of, um, competitive oppression within the groups of people affected by, uh, HIV or AIDS. It was even before there was something called HIV aids uh, AAA and we we didn't know what it was, but it was this gay plague. It started to be called Ark and AIDS A and and we [00:04:00] we, um we we we realised that it had must have something to do with sexual transmission. Uh, but of course, we were very eager to prove that we weren't the ones that were primarily responsible. It was someone else who was more a danger to the community because everyone was saying we were danger of community and and and and and gay men. And I must confess that I thought this way myself briefly, uh, tended [00:04:30] to think Well, probably more important in the spread of HIV. And it's inevitable spread to the heterosexual community, which we were told about. More important than gay people would be particular groups of gay people like married gay people. Or perhaps it would be prostitutes. Or perhaps it would be, um, drug users, intravenous drug users they would be the real vector of transmission. And so there was this [00:05:00] impulse to to put down to to to point out, to to degrade, uh, other groups of people and, of course, people who are more further down the hierarchy of oppression of oppression than one was oneself. No, of course, that way of thinking is a recipe for disaster, because [00:05:30] actually, all of us were being affected by AIDS. Actually, all of us were capable of spreading it to other people. Actually, all of us could take measures to make sure that we didn't spread it to other people. And actually, the real way to stop the spread of HIV had nothing to do with any of us, but rather to do with public health policies and things like that which were beyond [00:06:00] any individual. Uh, but the secret to getting out of the ghastly situation of mass hysteria about HIV was not to put each other down, but to get together to create a united front, to work out what we had in common to support each other to help build each other's organisations [00:06:30] for gay men to ally with sex workers to for gay men to align with intravenous drug users, uh, and and anyone else that we can get hold of to ally with it. In fact, um, the the people who are most who are least likely to get H HIV are lesbians. And they were some of our very best allies. But they saw the way in which HIV was being used [00:07:00] to create homophobia, which in turn, of course, are pressed in and so that they could see a logic besides a a AAA simple human connection a logic, a political logic in a in joining the alliance against HIV hysteria because it was also AAA an alliance against homophobia and and and and that principle of of standing back from the struggle [00:07:30] and resisting the human temptation to find someone else to blame rather to to To To to see how there there is a fundamental underlying unity between all these different oppressions is is crucial for us to to to, um, to make progress. Uh, and it's interesting because those alliances [00:08:00] that were created when we started to put the things together those alliances have stuck together pretty well, uh, for, uh, yeah. What, 35 years or something? now, Um uh, in this town anyway, and I think in other places. But, you know, I think that we've been lucky, um, in in creating alliances Where Where? Um uh, queer communities and, uh, intravenous [00:08:30] drug using communities and sex workers A actually fight well together. And where there is, I hope a better, uh, recognition of the dangers of different layers of queer communities getting each at each other. But it comes up with every struggle, it comes up again. And we saw it, and they struggled for marriage reform. [00:09:00] We saw ways in which there was a tendency for, uh, some people to think that the radicals were going to undermine and damage and hurt the the the the struggle for for marriage reform, Uh, and, uh, a huge amount of suspicion and and and and and and and and nastiness behind it. That was really quite [00:09:30] the main danger, actually, as I saw it, to the, um to to marriage reform was often the fear that someone was going to hurt the campaign, and therefore people had to be controlled carefully because they were dangerous. And that's the same kind of thing. Showing itself again. Uh, and and, um, that that's that's something that we've got to work to try to overcome [00:10:00] because, uh, where there is a basis for political unity where there's a common objective, we might as well get the people who have a common objective to work together on it, for God's sake, even if there's differences on the reasoning and the the the the arguments behind it. Um, even if we want to say, uh, all sorts of political criticism that can be completely different [00:10:30] to the fear and AAA and and nastiness, which sometimes, well, every time tends to crop up but can be talked through. And it's a matter of that patient talking through of the, uh uh uh, the the, uh, attempted putdowns. Uh, that's important, all right, that that right? [00:11:00] Just wait for that to heat up. But my name's Callum be. I work for the New Zealand prostitutes' collective and what I'm going to be talking about today when this heats up, what is and who is NZ PC to start off with? NZ PC started in 1987 we with a group of people who were sex workers and allies. They met in beaches on street corners in what cafes you had around about in the 19 eighties, early 19 eighties, [00:11:30] mid 19 eighties and in bars talking with each other about their employment rights and also about sexual and reproductive health issues. Um, because just at that time, HIV was becoming quite big, as Bill has addressed already. And the first place that NZ PC had in Wellington was on Cuba street with NZ PC, where the people living with AIDS Union and wide, which is now drugs, health development project [00:12:00] the needle exchange. So, yes, we've got all groups in one building as if we were untouchable. To some people, we contracted with the Ministry of Health and its predecessors. Since 1988 we have community bases in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin. Um, we do outreach as well not only to within each city, but also to, um, other parts of the country. So Auckland covers from the southern fringes of Auckland right [00:12:30] up through um, Tauranga goes right across through Hamilton down through, up to and across to Gisborne. Uh, Wellington just does coast and sometimes up to the Hawke's Bay because we do have an outreach worker in north who goes from right across through the Hawkes Bay um, Christchurch. Their outreach covers from Timaru North and Dunedin from South. We are [00:13:00] a rights based organisation. OK, some people think that we are a condom vending machine. But no, we're not. We're a rights based organisation. We have a couple of websites, one of which is currently under development. And that's the bottom one. The first one is the one that we're mostly using. So how do we do things? We talk with NGO S, government organisations and we provide advice and sometimes policy advice to those groups. Um that support positive sexuality in New Zealand. [00:13:30] Sometimes we also get invited to go overseas. Um Canada, Vienna. Other places like that. Um, we provide sexual and reproductive health resources to all people in the sex industry, not just sex workers, but also to brothel operators as well. OK, we provide a supportive environment within our community and BA basis. People can just pop in for a coffee, check whatever to help them understand some of the things that they may be facing. [00:14:00] We strengthen strategic alliances within the sexual health groups as well, and we look towards reducing stigma and sexual violence as well as, um, STIs. So who are sex workers? It's not similar at all to the population demographics. Um, more than just over half of them are European. Just over 30% are Maori, 5% Pacific Island and 13% other. The other [00:14:30] consists of all of Asia. That's from Japan, right through Southeast Asia, India, right to the Middle East. So that's a large group of ethnicities in there. Africa, African Americans, Caribbean and all of South America. So it's quite a large group. 85% of sex industry are women, 9% are male and 6% are trans. Now, all these figures come from, um, the study that was done by Gillian Abel in [00:15:00] 2007. But I do have to point out sexual orientation doesn't mean much at all. When you're working as a sex worker, we have men, gay men who work with female clients, straight men who work with male clients, the largest group of gay for pay. If you want to put it that way, uh, the straight guys. But the largest group of straight for pay and lesbians, [00:15:30] most of it is indoor. That's your brothels, massage or previously, about massage powers. Things like that and only 17% of it is outdoor. But you would tend to think by media representations that the outdoor sex industry is absolutely massive, and the indoor sex industry is hardly talked about at all things now. Of the indoor sex industry, around about 62% are big owner operated brothels. It's the managed brothels like Splash and Um, [00:16:00] Paris and lower huts and various other ones like that, Um, but 38% of them are people who are working privately by themselves or with one or two others from their own homes. OK, and that's very important to remember now. The count that we did in 2007 with the School of Medicine showed that there were 230 sex workers on the streets in Auckland. OK, 16% of the total number of sex workers in Auckland were working [00:16:30] on the streets. I want you to remember that figure because in 2004 the police estimated that the number of street based sex workers in all of Auckland were 360. I want you to remember that figure as well. At the moment, you're probably aware that we're having problems with a bill going through parliament regarding the City Council. Now the Auckland council published a little booklet, and this is one of the [00:17:00] images taken from that booklet, along with the blood that they have used now. I've specifically highlighted part of that in the down time. We're also approaching passers by and asking for money. I want you to remember that a little bit as well. OK, so is there stigma against sex workers? Sex workers previously operated privately as well, prior to the Prostitution Reform Act, in residential areas close to churches close to schools, [00:17:30] various other places. Um, prior to law reform, though, stigma kept those private operators very quiet about where they were. And a lot of people in the general population didn't know that they might actually be living beside a brothel. When I was with my first boyfriend, he didn't realise that the house beside us were two private sex workers operating from their own home, quite happily took him about a year to realise. [00:18:00] OK, um, you can still run a brothel from your own home and the I put up the Matthew That's a couple in the Hamilton Wake region. They are able to be quite open about owning a managed brothel in Hamilton. Laura Farm has therefore had some effect in helping to destigmatize the sex industry. But there are very strong examples of stigma against street [00:18:30] based sex workers from right throughout society. In in particular, there are claims that they're causing trouble, that they're urinating and defecating on the streets and leaving condoms and other offensive litter. Now I've taken a walk through. Yes, there are some condoms. Yes, there is a lot of offensive litter. There is a lot of other litter as well. The rubbish bins are often the street. Rubbish bins are often packed overflowing. The litter [00:19:00] that I saw included normal household items that were wind blown along the streets because of whatever. Yes, they do get wind in Auckland. It's not just Wellington, um, it also included school lunch boxes. Obviously it didn't like, and it was a guy's name that was written on it. Things he obviously didn't like what Mum and picked him for lunch that day and decided that this threw it over the fence, but it also included nappies, disposable nappies and tampons. And sex [00:19:30] workers don't use tampons. They use sponges. OK, so those tempos could not have been from sex workers. Similarly, sex workers don't take their Children out on the streets with them. When they're working, they leave them at home in the care of someone. So those nappies could not have been for sex. Workers trouble on the streets in the same areas that the sex workers are working from a night. There are bars. There are nightclubs. There are fast food joints. [00:20:00] So the noise isn't just from sex workers, but who gets the blame. The man City Council, in its wisdom, decided to close the public toilets at six o'clock every night. So you get people coming at the bars at 11. 12. 123 in the morning. And what happens? They wander along the street, Had a few to drink. Oh, I need a piss. Oh, fucking toilets Shut. I'm right [00:20:30] there. So and yet again, sex workers get the blame. There were claims that numbers of street based sex workers had quadrupled or had increased 400% at that time. Now these have been shown to be false. These are the types of things that people are actually saying about sex workers in South Auckland, that they are vectors of disease, [00:21:00] that they are a bunch of scrubbers and wouldn't touch them with a totem pole. OK, so that's the type of things that's been said. But it's not only your letter writer to the newspaper that is saying such things. Gordon Copeland, former um MP Sir Barry Curtis, former mayor of man, also saying sex workers in me are victims of disease, so street based sex workers in particular, are targeted as polluters with human and other dangerous [00:21:30] waste as vectors of disease. There's a lot of NIMBYism not in my backyard going on, and they're also treated as the drugs of society that people don't want to associate with. People feel safe in stigmatising sex street based sex workers because oh, everybody does it. This, however, results in greater violence and attempts at legislative change. Now the Man City Council, um, put in a bill into Parliament in 2005 [00:22:00] that failed because it was against the Bill of Rights and Parliament didn't want to, um, put laws into one area without the rest of the country. Um, in 2010, they tried again because of the change of government. And, um, that bill is soon to be renamed the Auckland Council Bill because of the changes up there. And it is definitely fueled by stigma against sex workers and transgender people. You saw the image earlier. OK, [00:22:30] now just a little bit about how stigma actually operates. It operates in three ways. Firstly, you have the societal hostility. It's embedded within cultural ideologies. Secondly, how those ideologies are expressed through societal structure and, lastly, how individuals internalise those ideologies. Now that all of these ideas date back a lot further than he, they date back [00:23:00] to at least all important 54 who talked about extra punitive, which is the stigma that is outside a person and interp punitive stigma. How stigma is felt within yourself. OK, so how you feel about yourself affects how things happen. It's often claimed that self esteem is a risk factor. It is a factor in risky behaviour like unsafe sex. But research [00:23:30] within New Zealand shows that no, it's not. It's actually stigma. The greater amount of stigma that a person feels, the higher the chance of risky behaviour and other risk and other sexual behaviours occurring. So what does it do? It views. It causes that person to view themselves negatively. It reduces their expectation. It increases risk behaviour such as alcohol and drug use. Safe sex. [00:24:00] These in turn, affect how others view that person. And so it goes on nicely circled nicely circled round and round we go. So it's therefore a need to educate society about the problems faced by transgender street based sex workers in particular, and how societal attitudes feed the stigma and prejudices. One of the things that is being done, it's in the planning stages at the moment. And that's the New Zealand project plan to eliminate stigma and discrimination associated with HIV and a ID. Now just [00:24:30] a little bit about the man bill in itself. This bill allows a local body to make bylaws that stops sex workers that prohibits sex workers from operating in the streets in certain areas. OK, the trouble is, what about sex workers who live in those prohibited areas? What about sex workers [00:25:00] who are walking through shopping in those prohibited areas? If road in Auckland has made a prohibited area, and sex workers are coming out of our community base on K Road with condoms and loops and everything like that. Will those condoms and loops be used as evidence against them? Will they be accused of working on the streets even if they are managed in a brothel or working from their own home? The [00:25:30] bill allows arrest on suspicion it doesn't only allow the arrest of sex workers, but also clients. And Peter Dunn put it very nicely when he said when we were talking with him about the bill, he said, That's not on. If I was to take my daughter downtown and the policeman saw me giving her money as she left the car, I could be arrested. [00:26:00] That's just not on. So he realised then how dangerous this bill could be has far more wide reaching effects than what was initially planned. There are a lot of things that are going on around the bill. It's currently before a select committee. The select committee is still discussing it. We don't know exactly what's going on or what will come out of that. Hopefully they will do the same with this bill that they did with the previous [00:26:30] one. However, it's a very different government that we have nowadays. Now I want you to think about the numbers of street based sex workers that I mentioned earlier. Remember, there were 360 street based sex workers estimated by the police in 2004, 2005. When the first bill is put in, the numbers have quadrupled, and that was the reason for putting the bill in because we need to control [00:27:00] these bad people. And yet, in 2008, 2007, a account, an accurate count of sex workers over a full year shows they were only 230 is 234 times 3 60. No, what we need to do is to try and change attitudes. So that image that we showed you before that the Auckland council used perhaps it could have had that [00:27:30] because this sets what we she lives on road. That's a flat meat. OK, the old person beside her is one of her neighbours, right under the bill because she's seen talking with someone [00:28:00] on her own street which is one of the streets that would be classed as a no go area for sex workers. She could be arrested. OK, but if it had had this there instead and we're talking to the neighbours after being her shopping, that would have reduced stigma. Thank you. [00:28:30] My name is Doe Wrigley. I'm, um, really aware that the entire time over the last two days, we've been in this, uh, beautiful buddy that I have not [00:29:00] worthy. And, um, from my background, I've I've spent two days now slightly frightened that, uh and black is gonna shoot out of nowhere and track me one. Um, so please excuse my nervousness, but I would like to acknowledge the room that we're in before I can turn me on. My name is Joe R. I work for [00:29:30] the New Zealand Nurses Organisation is a lead organiser. I'm also the convenor for a group called out at work, which is the for lack of a better expression. The Rainbow Network LGBTI Q network for the Council of Trade Unions in New Zealand and unions in this country are organ they organise. [00:30:00] I'm not sure how many of you understand what organising actually is, but it operates in what we call the organising diamond. The organising diamond involves those people who are our members. It involves identifying what the issues are that affect those members. It involves educating people to organise around those issues, and the final part of that diamond is leverage. And by educating people [00:30:30] to overcome those issues, we can get some leverage. And we talk to our communities and networks and politicians, and we create change. People often think of us creating that change in wages and conditions. But the other, the ultimate goal of unions, um is is to create social justice. Um, the International Trade Union Congress representatives spoke to [00:31:00] us this week at our own conference here in Wellington, and I think that, um, her name is Sharon Burrows. And she captured it when she said, You know, the role of unions is to create a more inclusive movement that speaks for working people and their families. And of course, that includes everybody that it doesn't matter if you're queer. If you're rainbow if you're Maori. If you're Pacifica. If you're a young person, it's an all encompassing statement. [00:31:30] Out at work hasn't been around very long in the big scheme of unions before the human rights conference. Um, here in Wellington, um, we we undertook some research amongst unions because, you know, unions got all with that created this group called out at work about 2004. Fabulous. We'll [00:32:00] have a camp with a K every two years and we'll let you know those gay folk go there great doing our bit. We did some research just before the Human rights conference of union organisers. The people who represent everybody about what LGBTI we didn't have the QE at that point meant there were very, very [00:32:30] few. It was it was alarming. It was embarrassing how many people didn't know what that stood for. What was even more embarrassing was a number of union organisers who said that there weren't any gay members in the union and then sitting alongside that with a number of union organisers who said that they they'd know if he was to be able to see them, and so therefore they were in there because they hadn't seen any mhm. [00:33:00] So, um, a couple of us, my colleague from the, uh, service and Food Workers union and myself pulled this in and we started to work with the unions and our network and then our network picked up that mantle and we we presented that what came out of that was then, you know, everybody agreed that we needed to change that in the union movement of the Union movement was going to be [00:33:30] the place for everybody. What's come out of that over the last couple of years is is a resource called the gender and sexual diversity at work and the goal of this resource. What it's aimed first and foremost at union organisers and and we're hoping to create change with it. And the idea is that unions are going to train their staff. And then those staff are going to train their delegates [00:34:00] because we know that we have low engagement with, you know, the rainbow community because nobody knows how to talk to them. Well, you know, there's there's, you know, the token ones out there, but like, you know, generally, when they're talking to their workplace delegate, there's not, you know, they may not even be out at work, so there's a whole myriad of problems there, so we've created a resource with the hope of some amazing people, including Marie Mitchell. [00:34:30] Um and it's called the gender and sexual diversity at work. Now the goal of this resource is to dispel myths and stereotypes, raise awareness of issues, provide language and tools for inclusiveness. For the organisations, there are opportunities for them to develop diversity metrics and track career advancement [00:35:00] to consider how inclusive or their own organisational goals are for individuals. This resource is going to hopefully teach them a myriad of things. Most importantly, it helps to. It aims to help demonstrate an individual's acceptance of LGBTI Q members in visible ways. The next steps that this resources [00:35:30] completely LGBTI Q. It's a big It's a big ask that we have here and it's a big task we have in front of us. It's very gorgeous, too. We're very proud of it and we include lots of interesting things, like video intersection, [00:36:00] wonderful graphics. This is my particular favourite. I want to say again, we know that we have to start from a base of my knowledge. We can't even say they're two bracket chicken [00:36:30] because a good deal of it is ignorance. You're dealing with people who embroil their every component of their life the social justice issues and fighting and fighting and fighting for what is right. And just and unbeknownst to them, they could be called bigots. However, we are about to embark upon the brave task of educating [00:37:00] ignorance. Wish us luck. Um, we're hopeful for this. And we hope that by the time we come round to two years time with another CTU conference, we'll be able to survey and show that we're making some inroads, that we we're moving ahead. There's another part of this task, though. And, um, it probably goes to some of the the conversation, um, around [00:37:30] white privilege today because the next part of this journey is to work with our other Council of Trade Union councils, um such as Pacifica, and work with them because they will work with those members to work with and work with them. We already work with them. They're really cool, [00:38:00] um, and and widen our spread. It's a big challenge, and it's a big issue for unions, but it's one that we are hoping to lead the whale. One of the most incredible advances for our rights within the Union movement has come [00:38:30] through a partnership with the youth union movement. The people that have helped us drive change in the union movement are the young people. And for that we're really grateful and amazed and honoured to be working with them. I can't think of anything else really useful to say about it other than we're hoping to do some millionaire education. And of course, I bought pamphlets and you're [00:39:00] welcome to take one that's more on the table. And they're Thank you so much to all our speakers here. It's really old because he's a Colorado kind of stand here. Um, we just haven't open the floor for some questions. So, um yeah, questions to any of the speakers or any points of discussion. Um, this is really a chance for people [00:39:30] to, um have a say and and and get some ideas happening in terms of what's already happening and what we could be doing in the future. So if you are interested in speaking, can you just go round the pillar and just kind of give me a little bit of a signal? And then I'll just point to you? Yeah. Cool. So, um yeah. Hi. Just to Joe having gone to, um, the last meeting, [00:40:00] though, Um, just it's interesting because one of the things I found interesting was that the idea of changing the banks to trade unions from being trade based or, you know, quite specific areas of the economy to like any a, well, what appear to be out of a group of people. I mean, a community, for instance, Or, um, a bunch of gays, for instance. So then allowing them to self organise, you know, the idea of self organisation lying behind [00:40:30] the idea of them benefiting also from being part of the trade union movement as well. Um uh, I mean, it's something that stuck in my mind. But how do you do you What? What is your thoughts on that? OK, I'm positive, though. The the I guess it's the the trade union movement and the Union movement as a whole is trying really hard to, um, maintain its relevance. [00:41:00] We have, uh, we have that generation thing. It came up somewhere today where there were two generations of people missing. Um, so we we have older unionists who have been unionists since you know, the day they started work 40 to 50 years ago. And we have young unionists who are passionate coming through, and they've discovered this new social movement. Then they're like, Wow, why has nobody ever told me about this? What we have, you know, and what's just common sense is that the union movement and other movements for social change, [00:41:30] um are are one and the same. They just, you know, one has a membership, and one is anybody who is passionate about an issue. So there's a common thread there. Yeah, it's about making alliances and creating social change that benefit everybody. Thank you. Uh, sure. I guess someone will speak to, uh, I guess, uh, ask the bill a question. Um, I appreciate what you have to say about, [00:42:00] um, building alliances and particularly about what happened with, uh, the campaign and how, um, there was quite a lot of, I guess reaction within, um, parts of the LGBT queer community about about the radicals in the campaign and how they were going to, you know, spoil marriage equality. And I was wondering, um, what your thoughts were because my experience to that campaign is that, actually, um, having come through that we've ended up on on [00:42:30] actually on the on the back foot in that, um within that campaign, they were very successful in in marginalising a lot of community voices, and we weren't really able to create the effective sort of relationships that we needed to do to be able to really challenge that in a really substantiated way. And I wanted to know what your thoughts were. Reflections were on that and how it went and possibly what you could see, sort of going forward how we might do that bit better. We did a lot better this time around [00:43:00] than we have in past struggles in that in past struggles, the victory has completely gutted the movement, and it's gone to sleep for 10 years. The point is that this conference is roughly the same size as you might have got a year ago, and that is pretty damn good in terms of the the history of these things. [00:43:30] Um, and victory is a very dangerous thing, Uh, because it make because you get all these people fighting for something and they achieve it and they fool themselves that this is perfect. Life is wonderful now and they go away. But of course, it is just a subset who feel like that. And the people who have gone [00:44:00] away are the, um, the law students, um, who probably weren't on the whole likely to be a core part of the radical movement going forward, um, and and and and so I don't think we have lost all that much. Um, I think that we've learned a little bit about politics. [00:44:30] I think we've made some advances, uh, to, uh, in in our links. What had what was unfortunate, I think, is that some of the very best of radical queers were alienated from the campaign and have thought have reached the conclusion that that that that radical politics gets, they were [00:45:00] convinced of the reasons to fight for marriage law reform. I think that our main failure was in in failing to convince our own left wing that it was in their interests to join this campaign, that it would actually be a defeat for homophobia. Uh, not the biggest defeat in the world. Not as significant [00:45:30] as the law students thought it was going to be. But it was an important defeat for homophobia. And so I think that that was our main failure. And if we if we've managed to keep that left, we would now be come out. We would now be in a lot stronger position than we are. But we have We have made some wings. We have recruited some people. Thank you. Um, I did want to speak to the marriage equality campaign, not having [00:46:00] been involved with that team, I think what happened is the content did get lost as Bill mentioned because, um, Dynamics, um, grew that learned, um, conducive to relationships. And though it may be questioned by those that have another view of when it comes to beyond marriage to [00:46:30] us, that was, um, a sacred milestone that we wanted to achieve at that time. And I think because the dynamics occurred before we could talk, it was lost in translation between each other. Therefore, I don't think we saw each other's point of view, um, too well, and that was right from the outset. The other, um, situation [00:47:00] that arose was that was tabled that potentially the campaign would be lost without the crew Avengers. Um, that didn't go down too well. And, um, from that point, things just deteriorated dramatically. So what pushed into what would cool [00:47:30] common grounds that we had? Where I didn't see that we had any at that time. Well, I thought we were all fighting for a law reform. So is there anything else on that question? Are you [00:48:00] sorry? I do have a speaking order there, Ian. Um, but we can keep talking about this topic. Um, I just got to stick to that, and I've got Kara next. Ok, well, I'm going to completely change the subject, um, and go, um, to the sex work reform stuff. Um, I was just wondering, I mean, obviously the mainstream media in New Zealand, to put it lightly is not great. Um, and [00:48:30] I know that there's been, uh, if I mean, there's a document that exists about, like, where and trans issues and how to report them sensitively. Um, I was just wondering if there's anything similar on sex worker stuff. Not that I specifically think that because there's one on trans issues. It makes people report things any better, is the whole misgender of recent times has shown, But I was just wondering. I mean, obviously it's something that would take a lot of time and effort and work, and you [00:49:00] guys do a whole lot already. But I was just wondering if there's anything along. Those lines isn't But each of the media areas report in different ways. The press is more conservative than the Herald, for example, although you would tend to think otherwise. The Dominion Post tends to reflect the cosmopolitan issues in Wellington better than [00:49:30] the other two. Major newspapers to The Dominion Post has a very good attitude towards sex workers, and, um, there is no real problem there with the Herald. Um, there is one reporter in particular who tends to be a bit shock horror, And, um, unfortunately, he's written some articles that [00:50:00] the way they're written, it tends to increase stigma rather than what tends to actually address the issue. I've noticed a lot of like, really, really bad reporting. I've seen they just go around and interview kind of concerned citizens and maybe that woman from New Zealand first, whose name I can't remember. Yeah, and just kind of put them all in one article and just don't go for any other years the [00:50:30] claims that have been made by us. We can't find any evidence pointing to the truth of them. The police can't find any evidence pointing to the truth of them. Um, she supposedly goes out with someone from the Maori wardens who we know has been very anti sex worker and very, very anti transgender, um, and has said some quite horrific things about transgender sex workers, actually, But, um, the [00:51:00] so called 13 year olds that she's claiming are working on the street. We can't find the police. Can't find sis can't find any trace of them. She's blaming those young people for being out in the street. But why are they out on the street? What's happening at home that's making them go out on the street? The Manukau City Council passed the by law in 2004 as a knee jerk reaction to the Prostitution of Farm Act, saying that people couldn't operate their own brothels within [00:51:30] a residential area. Now that includes nearly all of manuka. The private sex workers that were in that area could not afford to hire commercial um premises in the centre of city, so some of them opted to work on the street. Not many, but some of them did. Um, Nevertheless, the total number of sex workers working on the streets in America actually dropped. There are claims of 30 or 40 sex [00:52:00] workers hanging out at certain corners. Um, the police have been past that corner, and we have been past that corner on a nightly outreach, and we've counted a maximum of six people. Sounds like a taste. Give his money. Now, the, um the, um one of the things I was talking about in punitive, um, stigma about stigma is spelled. You [00:52:30] can actually see that in some of the reports that are made in Auckland, in the in the media, like it's those sex workers over there. They're the ones that are causing the problem. I'm OK. I don't do that sort of thing. Or it's those sex workers that are over there. They're always fried. You can't trust them. They're always fried. But I don't do that sort of thing. So you can see that sort of in an interp punitive felt? Yeah, it's other than the others. And that, [00:53:00] at from one particular reporter in Auckland, who we feel should be Thank you. Um, I had kay down next. Um I've been observing some of the government actions recently across a range of areas. That seems to be, I don't know, a slick management of issues relating to marginalised people in a give and take basis in a lot of areas. [00:53:30] Um, and I'm I'm interested in the comment and I'll give the example of because of pressure from a number of groups and recent research, the minister of corrections is saying, OK, we're going to change the policy relating to transgender people in prisons. So that's sort of like a giving potentially, although probably officials something positive. On the one hand, and in the same week, the Auckland District [00:54:00] Health Board says, OK, we're closing the Auckland, um trans health clinic, um, because of funding issues and we'll still engage with with clients, but basically they're shutting down the service. So you've got a a sort of a group of, you know, two groups of trans people being affected potentially, positively, potentially negatively one. It won't cost the government much to do, um, a small change, the other taking money out of it. And I'm sure that there's lots [00:54:30] of other areas where something that doesn't cost much like marriage equality, you see, like, Hey, we're giving you something nice, but at the same time taking away in areas and and to me, this seems like a really, I don't know, slick way of managing potentially discontented sort of people to, you know, it shuts down the scent. And I don't know if you know any of you've got views on that I. I think that the the current [00:55:00] government has I like Slick as a word. I think that, um over the past two terms, they've They've been the masters of announcing things and seeing how how much human cry happens and how loud that is and then moderating the position accordingly so that they come out as fair and reasonable people because people because they've listened and that's that's that's how it's perceived and how it's [00:55:30] reported in the media. And I think it's a really dangerous thing. Um, I have I next week, so just on the issue, um, Merv was raising, um, like I think partly I agree There was there was an an issue of, uh, communication. I think communication is the way you put it. Or like, um, something like that. Um, that I mean, I think there was some. [00:56:00] There was some There's some good work that was done and as Bill says, I think it kind of that they kind of lay lay the basis from some ongoing stuff. But definitely. I think one thing that a couple of people I've spoken to have taken from what Craven was putting out was that we had a problem with people who wanted to get married. Um, and you know, that was never really the issue. But it was more that, um that there were other that there was a a more fundamental structural [00:56:30] thing that needed to happen and that, um also that the career was actually approached to be involved in the campaign. And yet when we came to meetings, we were told not to talk about polyamory, not to talk about trans issues. So it was like, You have to be involved in the campaign, but you're not actually allowed to say what you think kind of thing. You can only to this party line, which is basically quite a safe party line that was really intending to appeal, to make sure that they got the and all that kind of thing [00:57:00] and, like, I mean, so for us, it was more that we need, you know, to be able to address, Um, you know that there's a problem with, like, the sort of single issue politics. If if it means that, um, that you basically certain oppressed groups don't really matter kind of thing. Um, because because you've got this issue and you can deal with it later kind of thing. So that was that was really how it how it played out for us. Um, particularly, yeah, particularly in [00:57:30] terms of being told that we're gonna be in this campaign. We had to not say certain things which are important to say, but yeah, um, in response to that, See, I had no idea that he had been that would have, I guess, changed the campaign's perception that that invitation was extended. And I must admit, if I was invited and then more or less told to leave your properly at the door, well, that wouldn't have gone down well. And secondly, it seemed that there has been, um, a condition [00:58:00] put up on the campaign that without, um, another string being put in for queer Avengers. That the conference was, um, at risk. So I remember that that made people feel jittery also. And I think the other factor was that if I was part of Queer Avengers at that time, I would have tried to leverage, I guess, myself. But I think because of the initial misunderstanding, it seemed like [00:58:30] that was trying to he in on marriage equality and from then so I guess huge lessons learned when rainbow organisations seek to collaborate, um, with each other to hopefully mitigate against these misunderstandings, I don't really think there was any enough understanding of perfect understanding. Uh, the fact is that queer Avengers had a programme [00:59:00] which included, uh, marriage rights, but also improved other things. But the Queer Avengers was openly a leftist activist organisation and leftist activism scares Labour Party lawyers. And that was the background. And there might have been miscommunications and people might not have heard things and so on. [00:59:30] But that background on the one side, Labour Party lawyers on the other side, queer activists. There was a tension there and there was bound to be tension that is in the nature of things we have got to get used to the fact that a coalition is a coalition and a coalition, uh is a political spread. And there is tension between the left and the right that is absolutely [01:00:00] crucial. And containing that tension is the secret of every reform we have made. We had that intention in 85 86 and we contained it. We had that contention last year and we were contained It It was difficult this time around because it was very difficult to control the right. [01:00:30] The right was pretty rapid. The the people who were attacking the left were pretty rapid. They tried to get that way in in 85 86 too, but we managed to get it through to them. You right wing, you nice conservative people. We didn't call him a right wing in this context because you, you nice conservative people who don't like action and are scared that the left is are going to spoil it for us at all. You actually need the left and the left needs [01:01:00] the right. We've got to be together. And that's what a coalition is all about. But the right actually believed they didn't need the left in this last campaign and they got offended. And we said, Actually, you need us. We we don't need you at all. That's a terribly offensive thing to say. Bullshit. You did need us. We were an important part of the conference. Wouldn't have [01:01:30] happened without us. Actually, I'm not saying that that the that the reform wouldn't have gone through, but there wouldn't have been nearly as much power behind. Not as many votes in them. It was It was we. Actually, the left, the getting the left and the right together was important in this. Now I'm not for always the left and the right getting together. I think that sometimes the left and the right should fight it out. But will they actually agree on something that is a a lawful [01:02:00] then that should be together. And we did actually agree and had to be a strip on. It would have been nonsense. Jo, did you wanna add something? Yeah, I. I did wanna add something because, um uh, the youth union movement and now at work, put a re, you know, governance remit thing to the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions and all of the unions endorsed the legalised love campaign, [01:02:30] Um, which was significant in itself. You know, these were national secretaries of unions and people like the meat workers unions had no idea when they endorsed how they were actually going to, um, explain that to the membership. Um, because they did it without consulting their membership. They did it in basic union, you know, Social justice and equality principles. So why why wouldn't they, um, with an out at work there was There was discussion, You know, where the real problem with the campaign, the campaign to all intents, purposes was [01:03:00] for gay men and lesbian women that excluded everybody else As far as the the public image of the campaign went, however, you know, with homes right now, and it's done and dusted. And all of the, um, he unionists have celebrated with us and patted themselves on the back and gone. Yeah, we're great people. We've been able to engage in conversations about what was wrong with the campaign. You know who wasn't represented and [01:03:30] and we can further our work and and and we have the luxury now, as a result of this last change in the movement to actually move things forward, and we've got people who want to be educated about what it is they're missing out on where their knowledge gaps are and why it is that, you know, they get called straight and he and other things which they are beginning to think might be slightly offensive terms, but they're not quite sure why. Um, [01:04:00] and and I think that's been a good thing from it. So so kind of like the the Civil Union bill at the time. You know, it was like a one small step forward for some people. Um, the change that came about out of that is significant. And and I think that we need to acknowledge that it was, you know, even though it didn't represent the entire community, Um, there are better things [01:04:30] to come because of it. Thanks for that. Um, I've got a I've got a few more on this side of the room. I just want to ask. I noticed there's been has it been as many people putting their hand up from over this area, and if anybody wants to say anything But if you're quite content to listen and learn this sweet um, Joel Yeah, I I think part of this is a discussion of learning how to win as well. And I think often on [01:05:00] the left we're so used to losing that we almost preconditioned to expect to lose and so we don't really think enough of actually how to win and what's required to win because I remember talking to friends from Australia when I was like, Yeah, two thirds of the National Party Conference have voted in support of marriage, equality stuff and I was like What we're fighting with with Labour to get there with the Labour Party over there to get there. This is insane And so I was like Well, you guys are running like this big campaign Tens of thousands of people were mobilising and stuff. Maybe you stop campaigning [01:05:30] and he just like, let it let it come natural to think what what what's happened here? Kind of. And I think they they knew that. So I think it's really important to taken as well and that as soon as I saw that I knew that, I was saying at the time that this wasn't the close run thing that it was being made out to be because the point when two thirds of the National Party, um, conference, come out in support of this, you know that there's something else pushing this forward and it's not, you know, it's not. It's not 85 [01:06:00] and stuff. Uh, in that sense, there was still I'm not dismissing entirely and stuff, but I think one of the lessons to learn from there is I think that even after it came out, even after the first vote, that landslide, that discourse of we don't want to speak to horses. This is the narrow thing. We're still being pushed out as a way of keeping us in mind. And I mean, one of the things I talk about, um in terms of this framework is the idea of making new mistakes is that in the the act of going out and doing things [01:06:30] or winning or trying new things and pushing forward, we make mistakes. And mistakes are a natural part of doing practical work. You know, that's a no. That's a normal part, and so it's really important that we step back from this and we learn from our mistakes and we learn, um, to win bigger and to win better next time around because, you know, I think it was actually really amazing. Um, within that that the the the radical queer voice piece that the queer representative which I thought was really cool that [01:07:00] was actually taken seriously nationally. That was one of the main you know you had, um Who was that family first? It was like, um uh, Louisa Wall first and create it. And I thought that was really good. And I think that it's we actually should be really proud of it in terms of how we we did manage to shape the agenda in that sense. And so I just put that out there. But I would say as well, like, even at the time, like, you know, I went two first National Party conference and it just discourse of [01:07:30] the SPF in the horses. And it's a close run thing. Yeah, I think it's to do. And but again, you know, we did. We did well out of that, and you know, we won. And so let's learn how to win. And if we're going to win as a community, we need to be driving the change as a community instead of waiting for the favour of a bill to be pulled out of a bucket. Actually, we should be way more proactive than that, because that is where the power is. That bill that got put out pulled out of the [01:08:00] bucket that, you know, was was a good one. You know, it it addressed an issue, but the wider issues of the community need to be lobbied to create the bill in the first place. Just on that, though, I think what's interesting, Because one of the first things I got involved in, like youngster was the civil unions, the civil unions Bill and I think a lot of the hard work was done then. And I remember at the time, you know, everyone was saying, you know, this is it for the life, for a life time. And so, on [01:08:30] the other hand, I don't think There, there, you know, even when it started, it was sort of this. Oh, man. This bill's gonna wonder how that's gonna go. A lot of people I remember talking to it wasn't on the agenda. You know that the bill actually pushed it forward, and so I think I agree with what you're saying. But I also think there was no sort of we wanna have. We wanna have, you know, same sex marriage or whatever. The bill itself pushed it forward, and I think I was quite surprised at five years on how smoothly that ran. So I I also think that in hindsight, [01:09:00] it's really obvious, and we could have pushed it and stuff. But I also think that it was quite it was something that took a lot of people quite surprised at how smoothly it went. Thank you. Um, I've got Kay. Is there any other people who would like to make any comments or ask any questions? Otherwise we'll wrap that up after kay. Yeah, and I just wanted to contribute another little bit from some aspects, but, um, another bouquet to the Queer Adventures, which seemed to be the only group that actually maintained [01:09:30] the diversity in its campaigning and, um, the activities across the way, because with legalised love, which I tried to interact with, they actually had no idea about queer and trans issues on a wider context, talking with their people total ignorance, and they never really got into to buy into that discussion with the labour and to some extent, green led marriage Equality campaign. There was so much fear of diversity that [01:10:00] even when um getting petition signing and engagement with people in the street, we were told to only approach people between a certain age range, you know, ability, range. You know, it's like, you know, we want people who will look pretty and heteronormative and get them to to the rally outside Parliament because there was an attempt to manage the, um the whole sort of image that was acceptable. And of course, you know, more people got involved than than that sort [01:10:30] of carefully photoshopped sort of grouping. Um, but it was still a yeah for the horses in a way that was almost sort of quite insulting to a lot of the diversity within our communities. And I'm glad that John raised this sort of whole issue about civil union campaign because that was really hard slog. But what that was won on was a lot of the emotional appeals that, um, older couples, long term couples, people of a whole [01:11:00] range of areas have been discriminated against and had, you know, had real sort of pain. That that was what got that one through. And this one year, we had a little bit of magical, but it was like it was more about This is time for a nice and safe thing to go through that one question, I'd like to ask what it is that the community can do to support the submissions in the upcoming, you know, presentations to [01:11:30] the select committee. The submissions on the bill closed way back in last year and then so all the presentations and everything have been done. Um, the committee is still considering the bill. The committee has, um, requested that NZ PC and the police and the groups in Auckland and the Auckland Council [01:12:00] talk with each other. And we have done so in front of a select committee and, um, at the Auckland Council buildings. Um, what comes out of that, though we still don't know. We've got no idea what the committee is going to decide on Yes, and things. But people talking to members of the select committee and, um, talking to them about good public health [01:12:30] issues. Um, saying that if push something underground, that's more likely to be more danger and various issues like that that, um and also talking about arrest on suspicion and how dangerous that can be. And so, yeah, what's the makeup of the select committee like political representation Party [01:13:00] representation? Um, so, yeah, it's mostly national with labour and green with one New Zealand first, which is, as the green members on the committee are quite good. It's Jen Logan, who has actually worked with NZ PC during the prostitution war. Um, prostitution reform. Um, [01:13:30] I want it. Yeah, but, um, a couple of things, um, one of the things as Maori and I watched this very carefully is that if you can actually keep people nameless and what happens in the media is that whenever we have a debate as Maori, it's those Maori always argue If [01:14:00] they would stop arguing, they'd get on so much better. And I had this a lot, and I had a group of students, and they brought this argument to me and I asked them over a three week period to watch television to listen to the news. But every time somebody came up, they would say, Oh, well, that was the Prime Minister. That was John Key or that was [01:14:30] such and such a person. It's not us, it's them, it's them. I said. What I want you to do now is to take away their names and just put how many times you see them arguing. Within three weeks they came back shock. They said, Do you realise that are 20 more times likely to argue when we don't know their names? Because we then take them as a group, not an individual. [01:15:00] So what's happening? I think I'm here. And here, too, is while people can say sex workers, we don't have to think about anything else. We can just say you're all wrong. I'm sorry, Callum. We know there's 15,000 of them in Auckland. That's it. You know, we it's in the paper. We know And it those arguments now, Bill, you are great. You'd sort of see it about. [01:15:30] And I heard some of you on the left saying this that you know that, um, it's not always women. I live with a leftist person and I've never won an argument with him yet. But with all what we're looking at now is I think the left those other projects that you were thinking about now need to start. We need [01:16:00] to start growing those because in the 1980 during during the eighties, when we were doing homosexual reform, once that that have gone through everyone sort of said, We've done it. There's no need to do anything else. It's all fantastic. It's great. Then when we did the, um uh, civil Union Bill, people wanted the marriage bill, and that was a really difficult because I wanted the marriage thing to go through [01:16:30] there. I really did. And I thought it through and it took me a long time. And there was somebody alongside me who was saying this. They get through running one if they get through. And I was like, Oh, shut up. I am. But again, a lot of the country wasn't ready for that. I knew it would come, but I would have to be patient enough for it to happen now. When we were looking at [01:17:00] the marriage bill, I know my own brothers and sisters said, But why do you need this reform? Haven't you got the civil union? What's the difference? What's what is that? And they were trying to sort of understand. And I was saying to them, many of us work When we get married, we just want to have the choice. And somebody said to me at work. Well, now you've got it through. Now you've got this sort of marriage equality. What difference is it gonna [01:17:30] make? And I said to these straight people, I can't object to any of you getting married to someone of the opposite sex, and they went what they said. But you couldn't do that. You can't do that anyway. And I said, Now just think of that. If we were the majority and we said You can't marry someone because they are the opposite sex, think it through, what would you do about [01:18:00] it? And they said we'd fight tooth and nail, and that's what we're going to continue to do. There are people you're gonna lose during those times, and sometimes the fighting isn't as nice as other people would like it to be. And that's just the way it is. It's, um you're gonna get people who are gonna be scared. And for those of you who have been in the protest movement and [01:18:30] people sort of say, Oh, you just like it, because it's great. I would be terrified in some of the marches I've been on absolutely terrified, but that wasn't enough to stop you going out and doing it. We need the left. We actually do need you to maybe kick us along a bit. But if you kick too hard, you will kick back. But I do wanna work [01:19:00] with you. I do wanna work with you. Um, but just remember that people will always talk about you in general terms. The left. It's faceless. You're all wrong. It's left. It's wrong. The right, it's faceless. You're all wrong. If I disagree with you, give me a name to them and you might be able to just prick the bubble then Callum. I really do hope that this, um, [01:19:30] you know that things happen right for you And I also do know that most people will believe what the paper says because they want to believe it, whether it's true or not. And that's just how it goes. And we just have to be careful of that and actually try and keep moving together. There are a lot of times when we've actually been able to get the facts out there now, but still, there's a lot of reaction to that. Um, when you have people [01:20:00] in South Auckland saying there were I got to my shop and there were 30 transvestites standing outside, there aren't that many transgender people in south working on the streets. Woman. All of the other people parade or something when I arrive. Two of the two of the people who were claiming that one of them who had claimed that it had increased 400% [01:20:30] and the other who was saying, Oh, there's a lot more out there than there was previously the Prostitution Law Review Committee when it was reviewing the bill that the act in 2007, 2008 ask these people Well, can you give us the names of them? They never did. And yet we could have supplied NZ. BC could have supplied the names of every sex worker that we see out on those streets because we [01:21:00] we contact them, we talk with them. We listen to what they're saying to us. And no, they're not all fried. And no, they don't drink. And no, they don't use diners or whatever all the time. Some of them will have a little bit of smoke. Some of them will have a little bit of drink, but they don't all do it all the time. And that's what the stories that these people are saying. Um, I'm I'm sorry. And you were just running about one time, so I thought that we just wrap up there. But people are welcome to stay [01:21:30] and have some discussions afterwards. Um, do the three of you have any, um, final comments that you want to put forward? You don't have to if you feel like you've said everything that you want to. Well, this is my last opportunity, So I'm gonna actually say goodbye. I'm going home to tomorrow to see my I haven't seen all week. I've been here in Wellington enjoying your fine weather. I'll I'll, I'll share with you the story of driving from Palmerston North because [01:22:00] the plane couldn't land and watching the windscreen wipers, the bus go out to the ocean somewhere. That was really interesting. Thank you for that. Got the heart pounding. Helped me with the excitement. It's been an amazing couple of days, um, hanging out with the queer Avengers and and and, um and definitely here. I've I've absolutely enjoyed the conversation, the interesting undertones and the really important discussions that I see ahead of everybody. And, um, I look forward to hearing [01:22:30] about where you all get to and, um, and learning from your experience. So, um, thank you. I have had an amazing time. I felt welcomed. And I have enjoyed meeting every single one of you, so thank you very much. I just want to say those who are speakers and those who have been running it that's fantastic. But there are two people here [01:23:00] who have been working flat out all day making sure that we can be heard that we're there. We have had the cooks at the back who are working all day to get it, and I would also like to acknowledge those people. But there is one special woman that I want to actually acknowledge today. And Sarah, that's you. Because without you, I probably wouldn't have come. And I really thank you for that, But don't you dare use those honey tonnes on me again. [01:23:30] Cool. Thank you, everyone. Um, that ends us for tonight. Um, there's a couple of events happening in town. If people are feeling up to it if they want to, I'm gonna go straight home to bed. Um, so, yeah, there's something happening at either, which is a clear desk. And there's something happening at brush as well. I think tonight. So if you are feeling like that, if you [01:24:00] just want to go home and sleep, and then get up early and do something If I practise with me in the morning, then you know that that's a priority. Um, we got to come around, wake everybody up sleeping. So, yeah, thank you so much for participating in, um, today in last night's, um, talk. So there there was some really, really good stuff that came out of it. Um, lots of important, important coral that took place today. And I really hope that, um, some people took away some really useful, useful, um, knowledge and and and [01:24:30] action. And tomorrow we're gonna be talking a little bit more about skills. So how we can put that stuff into place and what we can where we can go from there. So, um, big thank you to everyone for speaking today, and we do also want to thank them. Not here at the moment. But the cooks were just absolutely fantastic in India. And so and thank you again to the people, Um, who have been able to put the behind the scenes work in place. So, um, thank you.
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