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Right. Good morning. Um, my name's Sally Dello. And, um, I am facilitating a decision. The the topic today is around trans femininity and trans misogyny. So some pretty big words. So I thought just to start off just thinking about some of the definitions, So, um, And for me, I think we'll start with the word trans femininity, Um, and trans femininity. Um, and I read an article recently that often Trans women [00:00:30] are forced to the ultra firm in their presentation in order to, um, be gendered correctly. Um, and that's something personally, I've decided not to do. Um, and there are consequences with that and that I don't necessarily pass. Um, with si women, that's usually fine with si men. They very definitely genuine male. And I particularly hate the word mate. Um, I I've yet to [00:01:00] develop. My response to that is probably Thank you, ma'am. Um, as a way of reversing that. But there's just the the the the expectation that as a trans woman, I'm expected to be, um, presented in an ultra way and that that, um, I don't It's almost a cultural expectation. Um, and in my workplace, I have the impression I have is that people have respected me because I haven't gone down that path. So it's [00:01:30] a it's a mixed bag. So I would ask, um, if there's any Trans woman in prison if they would like to talk about their experience of trans feminine as a way of introducing this is a topic to the group. Um, I haven't really prepared anything, but, um, I suppose I feel like I'm more androgynous. Or but as a trans woman and yeah, that also gets me mis tendered a lot. [00:02:00] Um, and it's Yeah, I. I question myself whether I'm sort of shooting myself on foot by by expressing my gender in that way. Um, yeah, it's complicated. I definitely felt that pressure to be bit of that came out as trains. And but yeah, I felt like [00:02:30] the way I dress is how I'm more comfortable. Yeah, so, um, I've also noticed that, uh, there is a lot of pressure for socially and country to be very friend when transitioning from male to female, and so far in my transition, I decided to try and do as much as they can. Um, and a lot of swearing is evolve destroying [00:03:00] any connections or relationships with people that that enforce or encourage these these beliefs, And that's worked for me so far. But I know there's a lot the the pressure is still there. I'm not sure how it'll end up. Not in the future again, I suppose. Just listen to the two speakers. I've just spoken to the, um yeah, the way I trans feminine varies in the space I'm in in my family space. It's very [00:03:30] different to my workspace, and it's very different to my social space. Um, I identify as a queer trans woman. So coming into the lesbian community and facing the butch fin dilemma, um, and I've got a phrase that I use. Sometimes I want to be pretty, and sometimes I want to be a punk. Um, it's not a either all that. It's about how I feel on the day and what it is that I want to say. The message. I want to get across, um, [00:04:00] trains, misogyny, not a big room for me. Trans misogyny is the way that people, um, treat me treat my femininity as a trans woman. Um, and for me, this has been particularly problematic in the family space. Um, my and laws have called me a child abuser for coming out as friends. My own parents. My mother has told me that my kids are going to commit [00:04:30] suicide as teenagers because I'm expressing my trans identity to me, that that's a very powerful trans misogyny. On the other hand, my workplace has been very positive. They had a morning tea for me to welcome me and to the sisterhood. So trans misogyny is very specific again to the environment that I'm in. Um I I as part of my workspace, I sometimes work in the back [00:05:00] box of Taranaki. Um, people will use my preferred name, but they won't gender me correctly. Um, and that's generally in a group of heterosexual cisgender males. And I could offer the The explanation is that they don't want to gender me female because then they've got to think about whether or not they like me, um, in a sexual way. And they don't want to go there. So they're gender male, But they'll call me Sally. So there's a different groups treat me very different in terms of the trans misogyny. [00:05:30] Um, does anyone else want to speak on their experience or trans misogyny. A man is asking a question about that. Um, if if they're gender you so that they don't have to think about whether or not they like you. If they did gender, you correctly, would that make you uncomfortable? If that was something that they have to address? No. Because I very quickly disavow them of that. That idea that, uh, no, there's no sexual interest there whatsoever. And it's just a, um [00:06:00] it's more a case of being polite, I suppose, would be the, um and, uh, making validating my identity as opposed to, um, keeping themselves safe by misgender men. So that that that's that's my experience of trans misogyny that that, um, at a personal level. But there's also [00:06:30] at a cultural level, um, out of here. And obviously, um, how we trans people are portrayed in the media. Um uh, how trans people interact with health services there. There's a whole whole range, and, um, it's very much day to day. Yeah, um, I suppose the next thing is to go on and talk about some of the the the specific issues that, um, [00:07:00] want to talk about and Maybe the the first one I'll bring up is the, um, uh, the exclusion from female spaces. Now, I have to be very careful here, because whenever I've asked for access to female space, I've been given that access in my workplace. Um, there are the the the guidelines from the Department of Labour and from the human Rights Commission mean that I have They are required to provide access to female [00:07:30] spaces for me. Um, I asked to join the library here in Wellington, which is a lesbian library, and I was the first trans woman. As far as as far as I'm aware, I'm the first trans woman to have asked for access to that library. I was given access. Um, the space that I'm currently working on is around, um, recent on yesterday. No, Thursday night, um, [00:08:00] submission to the Parliamentary Select Committee inquiry into the funding for sexual abuse health services. And one of the things is that that's a space that often trans women are excluded from, um, at that healing space. Now it's not a blanket exclusion. Those services generally provide three services telephone counselling, which is available to anyone. They'll they'll answer the phone and talk to anyone There is one [00:08:30] on one counselling which can be can be done can be forwarded to transform and can be done in the space. Um, away away from a, um a woman who may be threatened by transforming the third one is being in a group of people who have been through a similar experience and being able to share that experience. That is the space that I'm excluded from. Um, and I have to be careful because I haven't actually asked for access to that space, but I certainly [00:09:00] have not been. None of the information I have seen has been explicitly making that space available to me. Um, so that that's my experience of getting access to, um, female only spaces. There are some spaces I don't feel very safe in, and that would be, um, changing rooms at swimming pools. So I'm just not gonna go there. You, um not for a long time yet, Um, but [00:09:30] that that's a personal issue about my safety. It may not be the same for other transport. Just open the just open that to the floor again. As anyone who would like to comment on access to safe spaces Because I've talked about my experience. Others may have different experiences we've touched briefly on. I've touched briefly on the, um, exaggerated hypo sexualization of trans trans women in the media. Um, [00:10:00] and that how How trans women are often, um, there's a cultural expectation that we will present in a very feminine manner. Um uh, and that that writes both to make up and to the the way we dress, um, the wearing of dresses and skirts and pumps and all all the and pearls set up. And I suppose I'm thinking back to my teenagehood. And the portrayal [00:10:30] of the Trans one in the media in New Zealand was very much focused on Carmen. And she presented that that very ultra feminine Um, and this is the the she stood with as Bob Jones in the council elections. Um, and that was basically the only New Zealand example of a trans woman that I had had access to. It was only only portrayal in the media. There were a couple of overseas people [00:11:00] that were available at that time. And I'm thinking of Jan Morris who were at conundrum. Um, but that was who was very much a a written newspaper account, so there was no visual expectations. The other person that crops up to mine is Renee Richards. Um, and again, the the written stuff around here was about, um, pink bra. So that that very ultra fem um, presentation about around the feminine presentation. [00:11:30] Um, and there's a I think my experience is that there's a, um a lot of the public. The teachers have a have a trouble making a distinction between, um a drag queen and a trans woman that as a as a trans woman, I'm expected to be and present like a drag queen. And that's, Hey, that's not what I'm at. Um, [00:12:00] at all this is my identity. It's not a performance again. I'll ask if there's anyone who wants to to speak. Um, when I came out, some members of my family, one of the comments that was made to me was that Oh, you're not going to become a prostitute or a drug addict. Yeah, I was pretty astounded, but also not because, you know, I think positive [00:12:30] cultural representations of trans women that I knew about trying to Yeah. Yeah. So it was kind of it. Um, yeah. Get my I was confused. Well, and other other stuff as well. Um, this year I read a book. I can't remember what it was by. It was called looking girl, and it was [00:13:00] all right. Well, it was It was a very good book. Um, and in it there was a big chapter on, I think, on media representations of trans women. And one thing that she talked about was that in documentaries, Um, for example, about Oh, you know, there's there's more and more documentaries about trans people coming out here, that sort of thing. But, um, she said that a lot of people or a lot of journalists were especially sort of interested if if [00:13:30] they were making one to to sort of capture trans women, getting ready for stuff like putting up online, applying makeup, and all those other traditional feminine things like that was something that they definitely wanted to capture. And it really annoyed her. That was what I eat. And, uh, I don't know, like maybe the the the the kind of selection process that they would go through to try and like the door to find to find a trans woman who would would agree to you. [00:14:00] I guess it's a very sort of like, I guess it would become like a sort of joining, joining stereotype or something if they Oh, it's not really a right word. But if you are, like going out and like searching No, sorry I wasn't terrible. At any rate. Um, yeah, it doesn't seem like it would be particularly helpful in terms of getting a wide range of representations. Now to carry on from that, it seems like, um, media is not interested in seeing [00:14:30] trans women as women. They just want to see the process, which is why they focus on mm. Good. Um, for example, the growing up in New Zealand in the seventies, coming through the eighties and the nineties, the representation trans from the media was invariably, they were invariably Maori. There was almost no pakeha Trans woman portrayed in the media, and I'm thinking that the the two other examples obviously, Carmen [00:15:00] and Georgina Bayer, um, and I would challenge anyone to to, um, think of a AAA Trans woman who has been had a high profile in the New Zealand media in the last 30 or 40 years story that I know. What do you know? OK, um II I won't comment on it. I [00:15:30] thought, um and that that brings on to the the of Trans women having positive role models of young Trans kids because Trans kids are coming out more and more. There's been the article in the paper recently about the young Trans boy who is going to be, um, given hormone blockers, um, and the negative reaction. And there's almost no positive role models for trans men or trans women. Um, and that's not that they don't we? We don't exist, [00:16:00] but the media doesn't want to see us on a positive light. There are certainly being professors at universities who are trans, both male and female. There are people working, um, in the sciences and the arts who have a profile. But the media choose not to Now. A part of that is some trends. People don't want to be recognised as trends identified as trends, and that is an issue, um, so and that complication. How do as a member of the trans community, how do I [00:16:30] provide positive role models for young Trans kids is one of the things that I think about a lot. How do I give those kids and say, Hey, you can actually be of value and do something really valuable in the community, but that that that is never conveyed. I can't convey that to them because I don't have access to the resources to do that. And the media is not interested in my story as a as a trans woman. So I, I think that that that to me, that's a really important issue that for the community going forward is about providing [00:17:00] those positive role models. I mean, you talked about the prostitution and drug addicts, you know that that's that's people's perception of trends. The street work is a man, and that's not a trans issue. That's a cultural issue, and it's an oppression issue around racism and around sexism. It's not a trans issue, but that's that's where people want to push us. Um, and that's that's what appears in the media. It's that very ne negative representation. So there's a [00:17:30] I need to have a positive representation on the media. Um and I don't know how to achieve that, but it's certainly something I I'm thinking about. And, um uh, another topic that was down for for discussion was around, um, male socialisation of transwomen. So when trans women grow up, as as young Children, they are socialised as males. So when they move into feminine [00:18:00] space or female spaces that they bring that male socialisation with them and that that's been, um, one of the I suppose the Excuse me, one of the first places I became aware of that was reading in the early eighties, um, Jani Raymond's the transsexual empire. It did a lot of damage to me, that particular book at that time. But this idea [00:18:30] that that trans women can't be feminine because they're bringing this male history with them. Um, OK, there are some things that I've been socialised as male and the the the the thing I'll talk about bringing up today was the way that I listen to people when I'm socialised as male. You listen to a group of four or five men talking and you listen to a group of four or five women talking. And the way the conversation is structured is very different. When the men talk and this is just [00:19:00] a a personal observation is that there's a lot of interjection and over talking and interruption, and that's accepted as being part of my conversation. You listen to a group of women talking, and the speaker is allowed to finish what they're saying before the next person starts. So the way I listen as a male, I I'm participating in the conversation in a very active way. When I listen in a female way, I'm actually being respectful and letting the person say what they need to say before I then [00:19:30] put my point of view forward. Now that's a very broad generalisation. But, um, people talk about, um, going to parties and all the women and catching all the men in the lounge. And it's because the the conversations are very different or can be different, Um, so that that is coming in in. I think it's more of an issue as a as a for anyone who's transitioning much older, that that's more of an issue for me because I've been in that male space much longer. [00:20:00] Um, and I have to be quite careful about how I how I listen. Um, but that doesn't that socialisation is not about my identity. It's about where I've been socialised how I've been socialised and it's not on my perspective. It's not a matter of male male privilege. It's a matter of Trans. I've been put in that space because of trans depression. Not because I'm accessing male privilege so that the, um I did [00:20:30] the issue of socialisation Um, I think it is a genuine issue, but again, I think that that, uh, making the accusation that I can't be allowed these spaces because I've been socialised as male rather than saying Hey, these are the ways you have been socialised as male. Can you think about how you might do that in a feminine space and need to think about how you've been socialised as being to be feminine? Um, And again, the the, um [00:21:00] it comes down to this idea of, um uh, you know, the the panel that's been cancelled was about, um, talking about the gender binary and, um, gender as a performance or, um, gender as a social construct. Um, that that that we that that's part of that. Um does anyone want to comment on aspects of the the the socialisation? Now I'm open this to any anyone that their experience of male socialisation [00:21:30] or female socialisation, and how you transition from one to the other and whether it's appropriate or not, or should we be trying to to remove this this idea of generous construct and it's just being human? Listen, my experience of what's happened is that it's there's definitely not a clear cut line between the two. And I don't know if the generalise the Trans speaker wouldn't I sort of like [00:22:00] I've picked up a real mission. Um, and you know, some. Sometimes that's useful. Sometimes it's not. There's certainly a lot of stuff that you like and learn, Um that, you know, it was quite difficult and intuitive to learn in the first place as a defence mechanism. [00:22:30] But also the socialisation argument or the socialisation idea has definitely got some issues and that it tends to presume there's this universal shared experience among people raised as girls raised to be woman and that there aren't any differences along the lines of class or race or disability or anything like that. And and that's [00:23:00] blatantly untrue. So it's sort of that failure does rest on privileging agenda of socialisation Above all else which is very questionable, I think. I think it also really minimises the individual's agency and how much they, um, contribute to their own self [00:23:30] and what they what? They learn from socialisation what they take from it, who they become through that process. So yeah, it sort of suggests that we are who we are raised as rather than who who we decided to be ourselves. I was just chime in and say around the socialisation thing that my experience as a fat [00:24:00] girl and a fat child was that the idea of femininity passed on to me was quite different in maybe other ways. And so like that, you know, when you talked about mate being used with you, mate is used with me as well. Um, men says men quite commonly use it to tell me that they're not attracted to me, which is like sweet cool. I'm not interested. Let's move along. So, like, it's interesting how sometimes those things intercede when you're not the right sort of femininity, you know, like I am. I think [00:24:30] the assumption that men are socialised to be male as a a huge amount of growth is so wrong because, for example, growing up as a daughter a really trying to get in touch with their family that everyone has. I mean, my sister and I both grew up without a mother role model, but I think that parents [00:25:00] are there even in situations where they're not where my dad wasn't attract, he was so in touch with that feminine side that the assumption that he's completely socialised is made kind of unhelpful. Yeah. Thank you for contributor. Um, I just, uh, [00:25:30] decision with this council. Um, and I just want to touch on that briefly, because it, um it was around deconstructing sex and gender. Yeah, um, the the idea that gender is a social construct or that, um, sixes between your legs and gingers between your ears. Um, so that there's this, uh, it's not my background. My background is as a physical scientist. Um, [00:26:00] So, um, this idea that gender is a social construct Now, I would actually put one more word in there, and I'd be quite happy with it. And it's gender expression as a social contract, the way gender is expressed, and that varies from culture to culture, you know, gender identity. My innate sense of whether I'm a male or a male or female for me, and there's a significant body of scientific work. I mean, that's That's one of the things that was important to me in coming out was to to track down that science and understand [00:26:30] medically. What it was that I had is that there are physical structures in the brain that give me my gender identity. There's a simple body of work now that that actually backs it up. Um, and so the gender is not just a social construct. It also has a physical. There are physical structures in my brain that give me that gender me. And that wasn't for everyone. Uh, just to carry on with that really briefly, Um, [00:27:00] What's again? Julia is really good. She goes into detail, quite uh, a lot of detail. And she argues that, um, gender is biologically inspired but also socially encouraged. So gender is both, um, something that is encouraged by biology but also encouraged socially, so you can't say it. Strictly gender is from sex or gender is from well to me that there there's two bodies of knowledge. There's the physical medical body of knowledge. And there's the social, [00:27:30] um, arts body of knowledge around gender from the gender studies and the women studies, and that if you're gonna you've actually got to combine the two and get something that comes out that combines both sets of knowledge, and that's around. The gender is both a biological gender identity as as a biological basis. But gender expression, the way I express my gender is a is a social a a social constraint, and the the the challenge for Trans people was they were actually we're actually crossing that boundary and that that's the challenge to, um, [00:28:00] the bulk of society that people should not cross that boundary. And here we are, challenging that boundary very openly. Um, the next topic II I sort of want to talk about is maybe the, um, racial differences in the way trans oppression or trans misogyny and trans fem are are expressed. And in New Zealand, I've already touched briefly on having the examples of the media being Carmen and Eugenia, [00:28:30] who come from a a Maori background. Um, and um, I was thinking, um, having the words. But, um, in culture and to culture is a A similar, Um, a group of people with similar identities. Identity issues. It's not. They're not equivalent. Um, but not not a 1 to 1 correspond being trans or transgender. But they have There are similar identities within that group and different cultures. The point I [00:29:00] would like to the observation I would make is that, um and our society in New Zealand was very trans, very transphobic, very homophobic. That was my family environment environment. I grew up in someone who grows up in a different culture and Samoan culture. Um, doesn't have that, um because of the the the historical, um, presence of anyone that within that culture there is [00:29:30] a, um an acknowledgement that that is a valid identity. So that when I in New Zealand society, when I interact with people, um, predominately in the in the environment and people misgender me and that my identity, that's trans misogyny. And but someone coming from a different culture from a Samoan culture and dealing with those, um, those the issue [00:30:00] that the same experience I experience because in their own culture, they accept your identity is much more accepted. They're probably not seeing it in the frame that I am in terms of trans misogyny and, um, Transphobia. They may be seeing it in the context of racism, that their experience it's not transphobia. It's actually racism I'm experiencing. So what I experience is transphobia may be experienced by someone from a different culture. Is something very different? Um, and [00:30:30] mm that, Yeah, I suppose that the that the it it's just being aware of allowing people their own experience and actually validating people's experiences, as opposed to imposing my experience as a as a global experience on everyone else. Um, does anyone else want to speak to that? I I'd like to leave it [00:31:00] there because I don't think it's It's valid for me as a pakeha woman to to go any further into that without input from people from different cultures. There's a note note in the in the notes for the the session. There's a topic a around, um, the sexualization of trans people in queer spaces. Now, uh, this is not something that I'm personally familiar with. Um, it's not something that I've experienced, um, or something that Megan wants to bring up. So I can't really talk [00:31:30] to it, But if there's anyone Who here who wants to talk about that? I'm providing a space. It will become to open up the floor, so to speak, at the end of your stuff. Well, I, I made a living. So it's not that this is not prepared. I'm I. I wanted to facilitate the discussion, so we've had some discussion. So I'm quite happy to open the floor now if people want to make a contribution, I mean, I, I would I [00:32:00] would like maybe a minute or so at the end just to sum up. But, um, if people want to start, if I If I open the floor to just people to comment, I've got to start like I'm doing a lot of listening. So, I, I don't often speak for anyone else, but, like, I wouldn't take the to be anything more than just awkward listening to an extent. But, um What I guess I'm really interested is that I guess I see myself as an ally, um, and try to do my best, but I definitely could do better. [00:32:30] Um, one of the things that I found interesting, especially when career first started up, was the way I work, which um, trans issues and queer issues overlap and are sort of put in the same box but aren't necessarily and that there were so many interesting discussions about how not all trans issues are very queer issues. And I think I find it really interesting. And it's something that was definitely brought up and something that became a lot more aware of. I was kind of interesting in people's [00:33:00] thoughts on that. The the the the trans issues are queer issues in the sense that obvious that people who are trends don't necessarily always you could be straight. You know, straight trends are not issues. See yourself as a weird person or that not all the issues were fit into queer space. At least the one that I was engaging with and listening to, um, wouldn't necessarily seem to be fully space. Um, just [00:33:30] put out some and I've been curious about in terms of people's good experiences. Yeah, uh, do trans issues have to be considered career issues? Yeah, there was. I think the point is that they often box together as being one and the same. When did not. There's just a lot of parallel and O over at times, Uh, and how to and how to engage with that, you know, as someone who wants to be supportive and, um [00:34:00] um, just as perfect as possible within this discussion frame, uh, framework of sort of navigating that space and just trying to be more informed and literate around these questions at this time. Well, I suppose just to comment to that that the the trans community is a very heterogeneous community. Um, and I suppose that the the obvious when I've seen, um, informational data on, um, sexual [00:34:30] orientation in the trans community, it's generally fallen out in the 30 30 30 10% framework. So 30% heterosexual, 30% are homosexual, 30% bisexual or pansexual, and 10% are asexuals that, um, that that's very diverse. Some trans people want to fit in seamlessly into the community and not be seen as Trans. Some people are quite open about being treated so that there's, [00:35:00] um, the one. I suppose the one unifying issue for the trans community is probably around health and access to health issues. Um, and, um, there's a session after this on that very issue, so I don't want to go into that any detail here so that that that my observation that that that, yes, there are the trans community community is so diverse that to talk about having transpacific issues, that there are issues that are specific [00:35:30] to this different groups within that community, there's no there's actually no homogeneous trans community would be my observation. Um, I was wondering about how, um how classism might be emerging within trans politics, because I remember, um, seeing in the paper there was a The Auckland Council had released a pamphlet about wanting to recriminate [00:36:00] street prostitution. And, um uh, there was a There was a Trans woman academic who was kind of crying foul at the stereotype that all trans people were street workers and she was like, No, some we're not. It was a kind of no, we're not like those trans women where, you know, the trans people I know are lawyers, um, and high people. So I'm kind of wondering about, um, the politics of respectability and trans [00:36:30] movements. If that's come up much, I suppose the space I'm aware of that happening is, um it's actually like written by IMI Kayama, who is our a female identified insect, uh, woman of colour out of the States. And she was writing about trans access to the Michigan Women's Festival Women's Music Festival. And it's a festival where trends are excluded. No trans trans [00:37:00] men are allowed, trans women are excluded and that there was within the trans community itself. No white middle class Trans said. Well, we've all had surgery. We should be allowed because we're surgically the same. Our physical appearance is the same as the woman, but that those that haven't had surgery and it was often people of colour and, um, people from the lower classes that that, um they should be excluded because they [00:37:30] and that didn't Emma's point was it wasn't a transition at all. It had become a class and a race issue. Um, so I think again, this is this right Intersectionality, we've got to be very careful. And I'm aware that I'm speaking as a middle class pakeha woman and that, um, my trans experience is very different to someone who comes from a different culture or a different class. [00:38:00] Now I it doesn't invalidate my experience. My experience is still, um, that is my experience. It's my lived experience. I can't change that, and I can't change many other things. But it's about being open. And the the and saying that we take, for example, the the street is I'm angry because there's a negative portrayal of trans women and there's no analysis that they're just seen as a problem rather [00:38:30] than, um, what resources does our society provide to those those trans women to, um, access excess jobs, access, um, access, health care, the things that are available to me as a middle class woman, friends, one that are not available to them because of race and class issues. So it it's difficult. Yeah, heard in the [00:39:00] states that, um, Dennis Bay was concerned with because there was a, um I think there was some quite wealthy, you know, comparatively wealthy and high profile trained person who was wanting to push a lot of money at the campaign to, um, repeal Don for the French people. He was in the military, and he was saying that, um, you know, it's quite easy for politics to get swayed by, You know, one person with a lot of money. [00:39:30] Yeah. I mean, that's, um that's always an issue. If you got money, you can You can achieve things if you haven't got money. It's a lot harder and a lot more work. And a lot more energy is required to to do it because I have to do the work myself as opposed to here. I want you to do this. I'm gonna pay you. Um but But, um, with all the other things going, we need to maintain an income. Look after my kids, um, to do activist work as well and be effective in that that work is [00:40:00] and edit and a difficulty. It's not that I don't want to do that work, but my capacity to do that work is oh, I have a question, Um, in regards to, um about, um, transit presentations in the media in my observation that there's sort of, like, two. I mean, there's sort of, like, two sort of stereotypes, one of them being like the secret [00:40:30] sort of Southeast Asian trans person who surprises some like, you know, client into, like some sort of sex burger surprises the like. I know it's shocking. It's a hilarious joke. I can, um I think Bridget Jones is the age of reason I think. And also maybe the hangover part, too. I haven't seen that. I heard of it. Oh, Jesus. Um, the other kind is like, I think for the last time I saw it was on finding [00:41:00] his own right where, um, I think he goes to a R break with someone, Um, like some guy, because natural transition. But like in those in like in that case, it was sort of a I think that character was sort of like It's like a guy with, like, a wig and like a dress. And, you know, it was very much like that person is obviously friends. Look, you know, like it's just so obvious. It's like, doesn't it doesn't need to be that obvious. I don't know. I guess it's just the audiences who might not pick it up otherwise because they're just [00:41:30] really innocent and something. But I don't know, I was wondering if there was any other like any other representations or any other things that annoyed people. So it's kind of like the two options are either a really big caricature or like sexy three, basically because, you know Oh, no, I was attracted to this person and they turned out to be Trans. My masculinity is now threatened by yeah, maybe the two options. Yeah, So if I was wondering, Like what Other? [00:42:00] Like, what was what? How people might like Trans People would be depicted in me. And like, what? How would we go about what characters would we kind of want to see to either that or like I don't know? Wouldn't it be like the same characters as everywhere else is not really an issue, But I think it's like a common thing with It's not just a trans issue. It's like a If you're not a white middle class, this man or woman on television or in [00:42:30] movies or whatever. It's hard to get a complex portrayal of a complex character because the issue becomes the issue, you know, like, Well, it's kind of like, Yeah, it's kind of I mean, that's kind of the obvious way to, you know, to have a trans character who's a normal character like like, you know, whatever. Just like have it not be a thing. But then, um, if they weren't going to talk about it, if they were watching a film, if they weren't talking about any of those particular issues, then you may or may not know it wouldn't be relevant to the story. [00:43:00] But, um, what if they were going to talk about trends issues? How would Sorry, I'm not sure what I'm not sure, but I think it would be nice to have, like, representations of trans people, which, you know, like talk about the fact that they're Trans and some of the stuff that they're dealing with in their lives. But not just be like talking about surgery or all about this. You know, scene of this transformation, where [00:43:30] this person puts on makeup and becomes a completely different person from how they look before and just real stuff like, you know, stuff that focused on aspects of the person, um, which are not specifically about them being trained but also stuff about them. Being being Trans is the defining train, but it's still part of that. Like train, [00:44:00] people have issues because we're trans, but we also deal with a lot of other stuff in our lives and just like everyone else, you know, we're not one dimensional people. And when I was talking about, like, just be characters like everybody else. I didn't mean that that they would be invisible. I mean that it would be like a non issue like that. They could experience a range of experiences. Like sometimes the most complex characters that we see are the ones that are the, you know, the most normal. Like this. [00:44:30] You're allowed to be a total fuck up if you're a white woman and girls or whatever, but you can't be a total fuck up. If you've got some other issue that's hard to talk about, you know? Whereas wouldn't it be nice if there could be a character who was Trans and who was a bit of a fuck up? But it wasn't like a, um It wasn't in the normal way that the normal way. But, you know, like when we were talking about being a drug addict or a prostitute, that those weren't the issues that maybe it was they couldn't cook or [00:45:00] like, you know, they keep breaking all your shit. You know that bad flatmate who you know, cracks all your stuff. I guess it's because at the moment, if someone is trans in the same way, that if someone in the media is gay or queer or a person of colour, they have to be almost like a a perfect representation and be everything to all people. And so if their experience doesn't reflect like the homogenous [00:45:30] experience, then they get credit. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I kind of wonder if that's particularly a thing for trans women as well, because like any woman like any woman, character in a show has to be. There's much more pressure for them to be likeable and relatable. Um, and that's the same thing for like, um, women writers and so forth. You have to be able to identify where you get these shows with men where they're [00:46:00] quite complex and not very good people and so forth. But you are still encouraged to be sympathetic towards them, like in spite of or because of their issues. No, I did see some news report or something like they were saying, like, top 100 or top 1000 or something like that. Movies. None of them have any, you know, friends, characters with them and something like, I suppose the other thing I just like to throw into [00:46:30] the room at this point is the one positive portrayal of a complex trans character. Is Haley in Coronation Street? I don't either. I'm just aware that that that's a character who's been in a long running soap opera for many years and who went through a transition in marriage and a whole lot of other complex issues besides being Trans. So it was a complex portrayal of a re and [00:47:00] sympathy betrayal of a trans character, Um, but that that that given that environment that that long wearing soap opera, you were able, the writers were able to develop the character. Whereas a lot of the, um, a lot of films, there's a very short time frame and the ability to develop a complex character is a character caricature. Yeah, whereas in in the the movies we talked about the, um, [00:47:30] the case of men and wigs. Um, that's a very common movie character, because I can't name those off the top of my head, but I'm certainly aware of half a dozen movies with that. That's the character that's preserved, presented as a trans woman and or I hate it. Yeah, this is also the transformer serial killer. I'm sorry. I'm just thinking of sort of media representation [00:48:00] of trans women and two that come to mind that I know have been problematic. But I think quite different reasons is, um, Felicity Huffman and Transamerica. And then also, um, what's her name? The woman in, um, Orange is the new black. I can't remember who the actress name. Yeah, her cox. And, um, I find it. I don't quite know exactly what I'm saying here. I just kind of wanted, like, they're the two people that immediately spread to my living cop suspicion [00:48:30] because I think on the one hand, it's really great, like her. And I don't know how many of you guys are familiar with orange is the new black, but it takes place in a women's prison. And so there are many, many issues with this show that I don't really want to touch on. But the, um, one thing that I I quite like about how they characterised her is that she doesn't fall into the stereotype of the drug, a drug addict or the prostitute. She's not in prison for those kind of crimes, and [00:49:00] her crime is still connected to her being trained. So it's not perfect, but it is still It was gratifying for me to see that portrayal. And I'm just kind of wondering if anybody else wanted to comment on that. Either they liked it or they didn't like that. Or they kind of like just thoughts that they might have may have seen that show. What were the problems that you were thinking of in terms of? Ah, but I like I know that people were, um [00:49:30] it was a bit of I don't know it very well because, like, I haven't seen it because I do remember seeing commentary being like, Why have you gotten a CIS woman and butch her up for, like, having a better term to make her look like a trans? Uh, sorry. Like to make her look like a trans woman. So they got. Instead of getting an actual Trans woman actress, they got a woman and made her look more manly, if you know what I mean. And like I, I feel like that's just a really great way of raising [00:50:00] an entire sector of our population because that's the question that comes to mind for me, is how many trans women and me and film and television are portrayed by transom. Yeah, exactly is the only one that I think I can think of. There were actually some of the transport, all worth it, but not very. I see. But I just remember that that was the idea. Looks like a OK, [00:50:30] I see. Um, nearly out of time. Two or three minutes just to to wrap up. Um, just to listen to discussion, Um, as 11 point I would like to make in terms of the media. And that's the the programmes that my Children watch nine and 10 year old, um, watching the comedies on TV one TV 21 TV four, whatever it is. And invariably the portrayal of people crossing gender boundaries is used for laughs in a negative way. That is the message [00:51:00] that our that my Children are receiving on a weekly basis. Um, for me, that's probably the portrayal of trans people in the media That's at that level that it's the most problematic for me because I can't combat that in any effective way. Um, we're we're about at the end of the session. Um, so I'd like to thank you all for coming and and for listening. Um, you've made me work really hard for me. But, um, it's OK. [00:51:30] I hope, um, you've got some things you can take away from us. Um, and just as anyone who would like to make some final comments to the group, um, I wanted to say and I should say this in the beginning that, um uh, my partner, uh, I met her actually at I actually met her at the last, um, conference that I went to. It was a number of years ago in Auckland, but, um, she was on a transgender panel. And one of the things she said that attracted me to her was [00:52:00] that she brought up the That being, um a trans woman doesn't necessarily obviously mean that you have to start behaving in traditional feminine ways. And, um, she, like she herself is very androgynous, um, by her own character. And she genuinely doesn't give a crap about what people think of the way that she, um what she chooses to dress and, um, doesn't make any any particular effort to like, which is something to be happy about. I think I always be brushed, [00:52:30] but, um, at any rate, I have huge amount of respect for her for doing so, you know, and being himself even, you know, just being himself in an even more nontraditional way. Yeah, thank you. Say one thing, Um, it's, um, transgender friend. And she had gone right through the whole things with the prostitution a lot and come through the other end of that and one of the things she suddenly [00:53:00] said, which I had never thought about before. She said I pay taxes and that was something because most of us do. Anyway, you don't think that other people will take that as something that, but for her, that was very special because it meant for her that she was part of society and she was paying her way as everybody else. And I think that's another thing that in looking at, um, people like [00:53:30] in this case, certainly transgender people to know that they are paying taxes to know that they are part of a society that doesn't recognise a lot of things, but that many of them are paying tax taxes and some are paying quite high taxes the same as everyone else. And that's just something because being a taxpayer I, I just never thought of it as being an issue. But when somebody had said they'd come through that and quite proud He said I pay taxes [00:54:00] now. I thought that's something I never thought of as a mission. And but for her, it was something to say. I am part of you. You are part of me. Thank you. Ok, thank you very much.
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