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I grew up in Timaru in the South Island, um, and the only way people met each other was through public toilets, as a way of socialising. I remember meeting someone who I knew was gay and reading a copy of Out and Pink Triangle and it was just I would have been about 16, 17. So for people in Timaru, like, there [00:00:30] were no places to meet. Some would escape up to Christchurch. And then you started to hear of things like saunas. And suddenly there was a different world. So what kind of year are we talking? We're talking, uh, 1977, 78. Um, and then going to Christchurch, uh, in 81, was the university group that, you know, um, what was it? Gay, not Gus, oh yeah, [00:01:00] Gay University Students Group at Canterbury. Um, and that was like a, um, A coming out of a coming out sort of process. A selective one. There was, there was a degree of clandestine, but there were the start of some things happening, like at the art centre was the coffee, uh, you know lounge that was set up. Um, so you There was [00:01:30] hints of, of a world being active, um, but I remember, uh, in, this would have been, what, 1984, 85, going on the first pro march for, uh, homosexual law reform out of Christchurch. Now, I had done the tour marches, I'd been on so many marches, and had marched so many times out of Cathedral Square. But it hit me, [00:02:00] as I was coming out, there was a degree of vulnerability. It was like, I'm marching for myself. Uh, and that was a really kind of, um, almost quite transformational and quite empowering, yet also recognizing, you know, would there be violence, you know, we'd seen that on the tour, would people, if you put on a badge, uh, and so, um, but I, but [00:02:30] I, I sensed in that time, just gradually in my life, um, Becoming more familiar with having, meeting people, and in non sexual ways, but meeting people. Just talking, as I would talk in other groups, uh, and having a sense of, it's okay, and it's something that I can be, uh, but still uncertain. [00:03:00] Can I take you back to Timaru and I'm guessing the late 60s? Yeah. How did you, how did you kind of discover your, your, your kind of sexuality? How, how did you know? It was 70s, I was only born in the 60s, don't age me too much. Um, well, it was, it was silly little things like watching, uh, what was that music program at 6 o'clock? And There were hints of people, uh, [00:03:30] you know, there was male bodies and flesh, and, and remember not just listening to it, but being, you know, aroused by it. Um, and so for me then it was, at one level there wasn't, uh, a quandary, but at another level it was you can't tell anyone or discuss that. Um, and But yes, so, as I said, uh, it's, for some people, it was [00:04:00] through, and for myself even, it was through initiation of sexual activity. Uh, at a reasonably young age, um, not under age, but a reasonable age, and so therefore, um, but then there were the questions of, well, what is? What do you do? And so it was often with older men. And so that your ability to have, um, control of those, it [00:04:30] was very much directed by what they wanted. Uh, and, but yeah, so, I thought it was always really interesting. How do you, how did I learn to be a young gay man? And I don't think I did. It took me quite a few years to, to develop a healthy model or concept of what that would be, look like. Yeah. Around that time, so we're talking, same with Mid 70s, I mean, this is the time of gay [00:05:00] liberation starting, a whole kind of groundswell of kind of queer energy. How did that kind of manifest in somewhere say like Timaru? Well, you never got it. You never saw it. Uh, like you may have seen something on the news, uh, but no one talked about it. It was just an item, uh, and it was over there. So, I think, yes, it, it, it was kind of like your don't ask, don't tell [00:05:30] kind of philosophy. Um, so, what you did start to get were the kind of, you know, the gossip that, you know, Elton John was bisexual or such. So you started to hear of pop stars and people, uh, who were, and you thought, oh, that's interesting. But you didn't really know anyone. In this, like, you knew people, but you didn't know people. And did that change when you went to Christchurch? [00:06:00] Yes, yeah. So, as I said, that's where I started, to meet other people, and non sexual, and, you know, just talking to people, and it being okay. Um, because the other thing, I think I need to understand is I came up for a very strong Catholic background and very involved in the Catholic student movement. And so I had these kind of two lives at one space. Um, and that took, took, took about 84, 85 [00:06:30] before I could really integrate that in an out way. But that was out of, um, my kind of social justice work, you know, um, looking at what does it mean, what was injustice. So I, from a very, from, from the sort of early, uh, 80s going to Christchurch, I was, I suppose military, I was kind of, you know, activated and social action was quite strong. So, [00:07:00] um, I would always like to, we would always host once a year the gay catholic group and we'd always host them for a mass, which was always an interesting time because there were those who were on either side, but there were those in the middle and it's like, you know, Do I acknowledge you? Do I not acknowledge you? Oh, how do you know him? Sort of. But it was, that, to me, that was a great experience. Um, that's why for me, like, um, [00:07:30] Things like the rainbow, uh, sort of crossings and the cancelling of that and the like, uh, are really important statements, you know, people constantly are always looking for clues, is, am I welcome here? Is it safe here? Do we, do we not tolerate you, but we, we welcome you into our community. You belong here. Um, and I think that's still, uh, a lot for a lot of young [00:08:00] people, uh, in this space. Did you have a question? Coming out or were you just you I was I well I didn't I sort of had it coming out at a couple of times There's one story though. It was like don't tell your father Sort of thing And you may remember after the law reform Like there was the setting up in Of the little coffee club in Vivian Street, you know, and so we had our [00:08:30] first gay little youth group there. And there was a Wednesday night documentary series and they were doing one on Vivian Street. And the first part was across the road with these pole dancers and anyway it was the break and my mother said to my father, imagine your mother Your parents seeing you on this and then the next phase what they'd come and filmed us Our little kind of gay youth group in the coffee lounge and and my mother looked [00:09:00] at dad He said I've always known but it was like that kind of space It was interesting But yes, it was kind of like It was spoken, but not spoken. Yeah. Yeah. And that first march for homosexual law reform in 84. Yeah. What drew you to that? Why did you want to be in that? Well, once again, because I had that very strong kind of social justice and inequality, it was like, [00:09:30] This is important. Uh, we had discussed it. Um, you know, there was, the time was right that we had to do something, uh, we had to, um, claim our space if, and for me it was like, well, if we had done it, like for against the tour, we had done it around. sort of Māori land rights and that. This was an important kind of statement. And so, um, there was no question, [00:10:00] uh, and so was involved locally, uh, but didn't really get involved until I came to Wellington in 86. Yeah. On that march in Christchurch, how, how big was that? It was quite big. Like it was a, a good sized march. Uh, I was, and everyone was there. Um, 'cause of course you had the hug people coming out as well, but I was surprised about the numbers. [00:10:30] Like you certainly wouldn't feel like it was a small march. Um, and there was a strong energy, but through all that time. Uh, there was, it was a joyful energy, there, it was, it was always celebratory, it was always, there was a dignity to it, like, we would just joke back to people who've called out names. Yeah, it was, it was, yeah, there was like a, a joy of being who we were. throughout [00:11:00] that time. Uh, and recognizing it was going to be a hard struggle. Um, you know, some of those debates that day on television were vicious. Um, but, uh, I, I remember a sense of camaraderie on that march. Was there much pushback from the people observing the march? There was some, but most people with marches just would look at it or toot and, you know, because they're either annoyed or support. [00:11:30] Um, but as it got more closer to the time, I found that there was more, Well, there was organisation, mainly of Christian groups, um, but also there was some, like some of the Friday night, being at the pub for a long time, sort of ones coming onto the street. Uh, but once again, I think we, we reacted With a sense of dignity like [00:12:00] we, uh, we just always were kind of like looking forward. Um, uh, and, and I think it, it, it, In a way, we just didn't allow those bullies. Almost, it was like the bullies that we experienced when we were at school and called faggots and that kind of thing. But we just decided, talking to men afterwards, we just decided we weren't going to be bullied anymore. Where do [00:12:30] you think that Can you tell us where that switch in mindset comes from in terms of saying, well actually we're just not going to accept this anymore? I think it came from, you know, more and more people meeting each other and just saying we're not that. I often talk about in my work around suicide and um, you know, The queer community, uh, it's often about that self stigma, you know, I am, which I've been taught to hate or fear, uh, [00:13:00] and so coming out is reframing of that. And I just think the more and more the people who came out, people who were strong and already worked through things, um, that we saw. Another way of being. And it was full of pride. It was. I think that word pride really was an important word during that time. The debate around homosexual law reform lasted for months and months. I [00:13:30] mean, I think it was about 16 months it went on. Did it ever feel that it was a It was inevitable, it was always going to pass, or were there times where you thought, Oh, my goodness. No, we didn't know. Uh, and, um, you know, there was, uh, it was like we were writing letters all the time. It was a real bombardment. Um, but you also had to remember that, like, we didn't really have Too much national organizing. It wasn't like there was an AIDS [00:14:00] foundation that was the backbone. So a lot of organizing, but we were connected and so it was real strong local lobbying of different people. Uh, but, We really didn't know. And of course there was the threats coming through to Fran Wild and things like that. Um, and of course the splitting of the bill, uh, that made a difference. And, and while people didn't like that, we kind of understood it. [00:14:30] Um, but yes, um, we never knew. And it was, it was like I hope it passes. We've done our best. Uh, but we weren't. Like, this is in our hand at all, yeah. And even if it hadn't passed, I mean, I'm guessing you wouldn't go back into the closet. No. Well, that's the thing. I think the issue, of course, with decriminalization was by [00:15:00] the time it arrived, by the time we had the actual passing, we were seeing the first cases of HIV. Um, and very soon after my arrival in Wellington, uh, I was appointed to the National Council of Aids. But it was also 1986, so we had the passing of the legislation, but also this amazingly revolutionary document called the Ottawa Charter, [00:15:30] and, and, and it was like, you know, it was What that was all about was community action, reorientating services, making sure there wasn't discrimination. Um, and so I think, uh, even if we hadn't, we would have got organized. We would have had to. And so the argument on the National Council of AIDS was around decriminalization. If we hadn't passed, our [00:16:00] focus would have been around decriminalization. Can you recall the first time you heard about HIV or AIDS? Uh, I remember it would have been around 84, because you were reading the magazines and such Um, and there was a little sense of, well, I hope it doesn't come here. Um, But then I remember the first cases [00:16:30] when it was announced someone had come back, um, and I had just arrived in Wellington, so I didn't really know the networks, but, you know, there was that start of once again of We have to get organized, you know, and, uh, like I just have admiration for people like Phil Parkinson and that who, who was this word semantic kind of person that would drive us [00:17:00] crazy sometimes on the council, hey, but by God, he knew his stuff. Uh, and, and, you know, we had that. You know, the action of the leaders like Bill Logan and such, who knew how we needed to go the next step. But people were scared. Well, we didn't really talk about it, we just sort of, I don't know, won't it be happening here sort of thing. Can you describe that shift from, your shift from Christchurch to [00:17:30] Wellington and your kind of perceptions of the different kind of communities? Yeah. Well, I. Well, I. I arrived in June, so it was just before, in fact, it was, it was in the second week of me arriving, I was still living, staying with my sister, uh, and remember, seeing on the news that I was going to pass, and rushing down in my sister's car to Parliament, and sort of not, but going up into the, um, [00:18:00] upstairs, the gallery, and, and just passing, and, but it was like, I was going, woo, but. I didn't know what it was like. I wish I had been in Christchurch. And of course you didn't have phones to text or anything. But I just remember the excitement of that moment. Um, and remembering, uh, almost like with tears in my eyes, [00:18:30] um, what that meant suddenly. Although I'd never felt it. I said, Oh my God, I'm no longer a criminal. Uh, and that was It was very kind of, you didn't realise how much that kind of unspoken social conditioning, uh, had on people. Uh, and so just that sense of freedom was very, very powerful. Um, so coming into Wellington, [00:19:00] um, I was kind of amazed, like the first place was, was Alfie's and going there. But then, you know, there was the bar. Bambooba and suddenly, uh, but it wasn't, it took a while until I started to meet people and I think it was when I started to get involved in sort of local action sort of stuff and just being [00:19:30] involved with people that people said, Oh, and they said, Oh, you knew, I've been here for a while, but yeah, it took a while for people for, for me to get it, but it was through once again, that kind of community volunteerism that started the process. Uh, and I remember, you know, contacting, you know, The first sort of, uh, well near to the start of the AIDS Foundation up in [00:20:00] Main Street going along and, uh, offering to say, you know, do training. These are my areas. Uh, so helping to set up the support group, uh, and also our education groups. So, uh, and that when it started to happen and then through. My work, I was working for the National Youth Council, hitting up the first national response to youth suicide in this country. Um, and it was through that, the [00:20:30] letter came for a nominee to go on the National Council of AIDS. Uh, and that was a great opener for, for starting to become really involved. Uh, and, You know, that's where I found this space. Uh, so for instance, uh, through that met like people like Paul Kinder, uh, and we sat down over two nights and wrote our first report as part of the thing on gay and lesbian youth suicide and mental health [00:21:00] in New Zealand. Now, I've still got a copy, but it was a, but basically we just took all that we knew what was going on. Uh, and I, it was very instrumental, like people started to quote from it. Um, so that's where I started to see the role of policy. And was that one of the first times where, um, people specifically were looking at queer communities in terms of health? Yeah, well, as I said, [00:21:30] this was the Ottawa Charter. Um, and so we had, uh, there was this, these two parallel process going along. So there was the National Council of AIDS work, which was at that big policy. Uh, but there was the kind of the whole lot of the, uh, the real formation of the AIDS Council, uh, and moving from sort of local groups to a more national. I remember going to so many meetings in Auckland and, you know, [00:22:00] working through that. Um, but what we saw was, as I kept saying, was this excitement. Suddenly there was the fair day. The university dancers that had been there were Suddenly much more. There was a real excitement in Wellington. Uh, people like, you know, Sunday Night Roast at the Victoria Club, you know. Um, just a sense that there were [00:22:30] things to do. Uh, I thought you saw a lot more people out. Uh, and like a lot of people would go to the, to the, um, The dance, but didn't, weren't there for dance, but they, there was a nice area and you could just sit there and chat away. And that was, I think, were those were the experiences. Um, and that's when, uh, through that report, uh, I started to think about how we can work [00:23:00] around our youth and that's where we, I suppose, the journey of sort of setting up gay youth groups in New Zealand. So, yeah. We'll come to that in just a minute, but I'm interested in, um, The moment after homosexual law reform, do you think things changed kind of immediately? Were people having more, as you say, were they more kind of out and more energy and more socialising? Or did things take a [00:23:30] while to, or did things just carry on as normal? I think It wasn't like I could say one day it was like this and the next day, but I think within a kind of a year to a year and a half, there was a cumulative effect. So things were, you know, there was like Shane Town's work around, you know, the gay teachers group and just suddenly you were hearing about things that you wouldn't have heard about before.[00:24:00] Uh, and of course, you know, a lot of it was around bars, but, oh, did you, have you met this person who's doing this? Um, but no, I just think, uh, not knowing Wellington, uh, I, I saw a greater variety of actions happening, not straight away, but sort of cumulatively, uh, in a whole wide range of different ways that, um, Yeah, it was kind of [00:24:30] like, that's why I'm always a great believer of movement building. Because once you get a movement going, people get caught up in it, and I think that's what happened in Wellington. Can you tell me a wee bit more about the, your work on the National Council of AIDS? Yes. So I was the youth representative, although I was getting a bit old by then, but what really, I suppose, what we had was, um, A well organized [00:25:00] caucus, you know, so it was almost like we were ready for whatever debate was happening that time, um, and, but, it was interesting, it was, it was almost like Um, for a range of people, you know, Sharon Crosby, there was the Bishop from, Anglican Bishop from Waiapu, there was [00:25:30] Arahu Akupu from the Māori Women's Welfare, all these people who'd been invited on but didn't really know what, but, um, that experience of being educated, uh, and. informed and seeing the degree of injustice, like it wasn't, um, we had like, uh, the biomedical discussions through Richard Meats and, you know, in terms of [00:26:00] the, the virus, uh, but, and of course we were coming from a community action model. Uh, and, and so by the end, The report, that first report that we wrote, uh, it truly was, it wasn't like there was a, a dissenting voice. We had carried the group to a process of actually, uh, writing, you know, writing the report. But as with anything like that. Reports of [00:26:30] reports that they don't really impact daily lives. Um, I don't think Um, it was like no one would know that we had a council sort of thing But it did shape Oh, hello there Sorry No, you don't have to be sorry you get down Sorry There you go Okay You can wait. Okay Um Yeah, [00:27:00] but I think that parallel process, um, of a community and public policy being shaped, um, did influence, but I think the real influencer was the action. Then we started to go for, for part two for the, um, the anti discrimination. That's where I think we started to get real traction in our community. And, [00:27:30] you know, the foundation of pointed Kevin Hay and like just the strategy, the thinking. around that. I think that's where we really got galvanized as a community. And we start, by the time we're in that, we had started to see local people being infected. And that was a space where people stepped up to the markets. It's, you know, it's that that [00:28:00] higher self came out and there was that call to action. Um, but once again, it was at that local level, wasn't at that sort of public policy level. Because it wasn't too many years after, uh, what was about 87, 88, where, where people started dying, um, uh, locally. And I mean, what kind of, I mean, there were so many, what, what kind of impact did [00:28:30] that have on you? It's kind of like, because you're involved, you don't realise it was happening. Uh, and because of my work, uh, there was this almost like a professionalism catching off of it. Uh, but those, those funerals, You know, those gatherings of people, uh, [00:29:00] they were powerful, uh, there was, there was a somberness that, that it was, this was real, uh, and that people that had been high profile, I'll say for instance. I can't remember his name, it was Daniel's partner who was on the National Council, [00:29:30] who then died. Peter Cuthbert? Yeah, that's right, Peter. You know, those kind of times, um, I think for a lot of people, uh, People's sort of, kind of grieving. It was almost like we had that sort of gay thing. It was like a social event afterwards everyone was chatting. But there, you could tell there was a heaviness. Um, and that's why I think, you know, when we started to [00:30:00] have those communal memorials. Uh, and people came, uh, they were important, they were incredibly important, they were often the way where people could actually, uh, be vulnerable for a while and to remember. To be somber almost. So much happened in say that 5 to 10 years after law reform. [00:30:30] When you think of HIV AIDS coming onto the scene and as you say, heading towards the Human Rights Act where it was all about taking away the Making it illegal to discriminate against rainbow people. And is this the point where you start thinking about, say, gay youth groups? Well, it sort of came out more 89, 1990. Um, and [00:31:00] It was this realisation that people, we were starting to talk about it because there was the rise of suicide. Um, but there was a kickback like, um, One of the controversies around that time was when Professor Joyce, uh, in a, I think it was a North and South article, uh, accused me of using suicide to promote homosexuality [00:31:30] and that there was no evidence that, in fact, sexuality was a contributor. Um, so there was like really, um, that, uh, what I, the fortunate thing for me was, is at the end of the National Youth Suicide Prevention Project, uh, we had been very fortunate, Phil Goff was the Minister of Youth Affairs, and so he had, because he didn't have a ministry at the time, he would come to anything [00:32:00] that we, he would launch all our events and that, he was great. And so. We had a meeting in his office where we presented the final report, um, and he kind of said to me, Oh, what are you doing now? And I said, I'm joining your other portfolio. He was the Minister of Employment. I said, I'm going to be unemployed. Anyway, the next day I get a phone call from Rhea Earp, uh, from the establishment unit asking me to come on board. And the minister said, [00:32:30] request was for me to implement the report recommendations. So I was in internal affairs setting up the ministry and was there for the first three, four years of the ministry. So I suddenly was in a position where youth was a focus and could influence that public policy. Um, and it, it was almost like there were all these things coming together, uh, because there was a group of us, um, [00:33:00] uh, Phil Silver from the Otago multi, you know, the longitudinal study. Um, uh, there were a Jenny Brash, who was the mayor of Porro. Anyway, we at Bushy Park set up the New Zealand Association of Adolescent Health. So there was this kind of meeting of all these different kind of issues. And we had our first national youth health conference out at the police college in 1990.[00:33:30] Um, I remember it because the next, after the conference, I flew out for my Winston Churchill fellowship. But it was this kind of exciting, magical time. And we had people like Dame Margaret Sparrow and Dame Sue Bagshaw. I said, I've got all these dames around me now. But, but what we had was a time and that there was a recognition that, you know, gay youth were to be a focus. Uh, so we were, Talking about setting up youth health [00:34:00] centers, you know, you know, what, how do we improve youth mental health? Uh, and so in the community And so suddenly there was just these little groups setting up. Uh, there was the group in Christchurch Uh, there was a group in Group in Nelson, there was one in Dunedin. So we were suddenly hearing about that. So I had this idea one night, as I often did, I said, let's have a national conference. [00:34:30] I had started when, for the job with the National Youth Council, I was with the National Council of Churches, the National Youth Secretary, and I organized then a gays in the church. We had about 15 people went to Otaki Falls and we had about 15 young gay men, young gays in the church. So I'd started that kind of work and so I said, let's have a national youth conference. Um, and anyway, um, there was Judah Bone [00:35:00] and, uh, Alistair France and we kind of were the backbone and said, okay, we're gonna do this. So. Because I'd organized conferences before, I was like, oh well, bit formulaic. Uh, so we booked the Wellington High School. Uh, for the venue. Uh, anyway, the word got out that we were going to have it, uh, and our booking got cancelled by the principal, who was a lesbian. So, but anyway, [00:35:30] so suddenly there was a backlash. So, this was just before the, uh, So, what year was this? This was 1989, 90, I can't remember, I should check it again, but yes, so that was a very Um, yeah, it was an interesting time. So anyway, we managed, we rang up and got Newtown School. And, once again, this is all before, you [00:36:00] know, internet or anything like this. And this kind of word got out, uh, and, and the Aucklanders who were saying he had organized, and all these people just turned up. And I remember on the Thursday night, you know, watching all these people sort of timidly coming into the big hall, um, and I thought, well, we'll do a few workshops and we'll do that, uh, and, and not appreciating just how transformational, uh, and I still [00:36:30] have some people who, uh, you know, peers say how powerful that weekend was, so, uh. And that's what we, once again, it was that movement building, you know. It was kind of like, once you say this is okay, uh, we can do this, and you start to see it happening. You can't stop it, uh, uh, and that's, uh, you know, that's where [00:37:00] I think was exciting. I remember having done some work with Rex Halliday, and he had brought over Eric Rose, who was from the, uh, Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Community Center. He had written a little book. called I Thought People Like That Killed Themselves, which was kind of like a very preliminary overview of suicide. So he had come to New Zealand, and so we had some discussions about what worked, what do we [00:37:30] need to do. And so, for instance, out of that, one Saturday afternoon in an AUT lecture theatre, about 50 people came, and it was decided that we would set up. A gay and lesbian youth group in Auckland, so Rainbow Youth, started that day, uh, and you know, it was the power of people working together, saying, it's going to happen, we're going to do this. [00:38:00] Was it or wouldn't it be nice, or, it was, there was action, uh, and that's what I think was so exciting at that time. Do you think those things would have happened if If homosexual law reform hadn't happened in 85, 86, would the momentum have already been there? Um, no. Well, I think it would have been much, much harder. Um, we would now, because the, [00:38:30] I think people would not have galvanized as much. I think that we had a rallying cry of the legislation, which, where relationships got formed, people started to meet each other, which allowed other things to happen. And that's, for me, that's what movement building does. It brings people into something that's got energy. Whereas, it was, I think, if [00:39:00] not, we may have been, we would have progressed, but we may have still had a little coffee shop in Christchurch, which some people sort of popped their head into. But drove past many times, but never went in sort of thing. So no, I think if we didn't have that, and then the anti discrimination, once again, we had something that said, um, it's not only that we're not criminals. But we're okay. We have a [00:39:30] right to be here. Um, you know, it's that Ture Ngawaiwa, that notion of legitimacy, all the, you know, the key instruments that we use to talk about a mental well being, sense that I have the right to be here, as I say, the right to be and the right to breathe, to take up space. I have something to contribute. I have something to be. Like, we wouldn't have got some of the work that happened in the education, [00:40:00] not only with Shane, but, you know, people like Morris Holder at Wellington High School, you know, setting up a little group there. All the work done by, you know, I knew her, forget her name, from Napier teacher, did amazing work, did her masters on, and, and we just had all this, it was like the critical mass, uh, started to happen, uh, and, and we thought, you know, We [00:40:30] couldn't stop. It was just things, it was like that kind of notion of magical thinking. Things happened. I'm interested to go back a wee bit when you were talking about the rise in suicide statistics. Yeah. I mean, was that happening, were you seeing that? Yes. So, well, what we had had, I used to always argue that, uh, for our communities, we had always been funeral growers. It wasn't [00:41:00] just the HIV. In the past it had been suicide, but no one ever talked about it. Um, So what we saw was a phenomenon was in Generation X, this group of young people started to kill themselves much more. Now part of the problem was that the way that we did research was that was around, because you can't ask the person because they're dead, so it was around interviews. Now if you had [00:41:30] killed yourself because you didn't want anyone to know that you were, of course your family's not going to say, or if there was shame because they had come out and been kicked out of home or whatever, that of course the family wouldn't divulge that in an interview with a researcher. So of course we didn't have the data, we knew it was there, But we couldn't, like, quantify it. Um, and that's [00:42:00] why, um, there's sort of a sense of karma is that, uh, Professor Joyce, who did the attack on me, his assistant was now Associate Professor Annette Beautré, uh, and it was her, Then partner husbands research in the Christchurch Longitudinal Study that identified sexuality as a contributor to suicide. So I always, always used to take a bit of a joy in this, anyway, but yes. [00:42:30] But no, we didn't know, uh, but we did have suicides, like, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, There was a friend I knew quite well, you know, and that just decimated, I remember it, we were, we lived in Auckland and you know how some flats were like a drop in centre and I remember I'd driven up from Wellington almost overnight and I walked into this lounge and here was this [00:43:00] room full of young gay men just I, you know, they were, nothing was happening. Everyone was just in this shock. Uh, and this was a group that over the next three days gradually came together, but I'll never forget that death. I'll never forget what happened in that group. Um, [00:43:30] and, and we, we were hearing that. so much. Because suicide was being talked about more, we started to hear about them more. Um, and, in a way, that was the rationale about why we needed to do something about this. Uh, but, people, young people, you know, were scared, were, not just around the virus, um, um, They [00:44:00] wanted the reassurance that they were okay, uh, that there was something better. Uh, and this was way before that kind of movement in, in America about, you know, it will get better. Uh, people, you know, a lot of young people, uh, were excited. But also unsure, [00:44:30] I think. Um, and that's for me, you know, When we look at, you know, suicide within our community today, at some level it actually hasn't changed all that much. So the question is, we've got lots more support groups and change, but what's happening at that real fundamentals sense where people are getting still messaging that I'm maybe not okay, I'm different. Uh, so I still think [00:45:00] we've got work to do. Uh. And it, it's about being vigilant about, uh, cancelling of, of rainbow, uh, this whole debate around trans and the vitriol thing is, we need to be calling that out. We need to be speaking about that. We need to, um, almost like claim that space again of the [00:45:30] people's right to be, that right of citizenship. You're not a freak. You're not, you're not what you were taught to hate or fear. I think one of the things you mentioned earlier as well about, um, And it can be so subtle, is that when you walk into a space you, um, very quickly identify whether this is a safe space or not. It's whether it's in somebody's language or whether it's in a [00:46:00] rainbow crossing or whatever. And I think that we actually carry that. Uh, one of the projects that I did overseas, of course, was Mined Out. Which was, uh, the first national response to gay and lesbian suicide in Australia. Uh, and one of the projects I'm really proud of was, is I got together a whole lot of key practitioners and we locked ourselves away and I invited Marnie over and we went up [00:46:30] to the Blue Mountains and for three days we just brainstormed about what was our practice wisdom, what do we know works to, to assist people to well being. Magical time. Anyway, um, they're currently reviewing that document, which I'm very excited about. But what I think was really critical in all the themes was that people, uh, [00:47:00] needed To feel safe, but the problem is those skills that we had to have coming out, and you know, that almost traumatization, that flight, are we safe, is Because of, you know, that danger, we're constantly having to check it out. And that can be a real problem for us. And what we were talking about in that space was the [00:47:30] difference between people, um, the skills that we may have had to survive, we should not need to have when we are older. Like, we should, we should, that integration, but we, so we may be really healthy and integrated, but there is a degree of still a threat. Like, when I came back, who's a safe GP, where do you go, all those things are part of people's sort of kind of constant [00:48:00] space, like sometimes do I disclose my sexuality in a workshop or not. Um. Still, you have to, you've got to judge it, yeah. And those things, I mean, as we both are kind of aging, I mean, those things never actually leave you, do they? I mean, every single day you're making the choice. Or you're hyper vigilant about who's around you, what space you're in. Yeah, and it's because of that almost hard [00:48:30] wiring. It's a bit like You know, I see lots of young people, you know, holding hands now, same sex people. And there's a part of me that goes, oh, that's wonderful. But there's an old part of me, oh, be careful, you know. And, and, and so for us, that's not their story. That's not their experience. But for us, it's dual. It's almost like it's hardwired into us because we did get threat, uh, and that's why I often call about, [00:49:00] it was the traumatization that happened in our journey to integration, what we had to go through, uh, and sadly, I would say that for some, that's still the experience and that's why we're still seeing experiences of suicide, particularly in our young people. But the, the other one I just want to say is, while we get obsessed about coming out, and that's important, uh, suicide, [00:49:30] uh, in the, in the rainbow community goes across the lifespan. So you get now older gay men. The issue that we have is loneliness and, and so we've, we've almost like we've stopped all our community development activities, uh, which I think have been really important. Uh, and so I think there's a whole lot of work we need to do around older LGBT people, uh, [00:50:00] and how we value them in our community, uh, but also how we ensure that they don't become isolated. You, you would have been I mean, I'm just thinking about the mid eighties, early nineties. You would have been in an incredibly privileged position to not only see the youth coming through and seeing that actually, you know, things were changing, but you would have also been quite aware of the older generations and how they [00:50:30] were feeling. And I'm wondering, can you, can you think back to some of the, maybe the older people that you would have known in the mid eighties and how. Uh, well, I think what we had was, of course, it was sort of involved with your kind of community activists. Uh, and, you know, and, uh, As we saw, like it was the, you know, the trans who led the actual, the riot. It really was lesbians in this country [00:51:00] whose analysis and that, um, so for instance, you started seeing gender studies courses and that, uh, uh, you know, debate and discussion. Uh, what I thought I saw was. Over time, were you, first of all, was the engagement with leaders, but I think the things like Fair Day and also, well, it was, they were intergenerational events, but we, [00:51:30] people were involved at a whole lot of levels. Um, and I thought, you know, you know, We started to see, uh, older people telling their stories. Um, we started to, you know, through things like Pink, uh, what was it? Pink Triangle and, you know, publication like that. We saw, uh, You know, a whole lot of people being involved. The Saturday morning radio program. You know, all [00:52:00] those things. Um, People from a wide range of our community started to tell their story. Started to be part of our history. Um, and that's why I'm sort of, Not concerned, but I think it's really important that this generation know the whakapapa of, of, of what, to, to where, where we have come today. That we don't forget those stories. That we honour [00:52:30] a whole generation. So, you know, I remember talking to people because of my work. And they would tell about, like, stories in the 50s and 60s, and going to funerals, or, um, and, or the stories of rejection. And, and so what I have seen in my work, you know, older people telling about what it was like to be kicked out of home in the 70s. And [00:53:00] never had reconciliation. And you know, you look at them and they're strong people, but you know, you can hear that, that woundedness of that rejection. And it was that resiliency despite of, rather because of. But I think, that's why I love projects like this. The more we collect our stories, the more. Like for [00:53:30] me, uh, once again it's, it's permission giving. It was like, you know, the film festivals. And, you know, I remember the one of the, all these old people coming out in their 70s. But this whole, you know, what was it? Where did we have it? The big theatre. But this theatre being so enwrapped with this story and the excitement of stories like that. Uh, I think were really, really important. I have to say, those [00:54:00] outtakes film festivals were amazing, because I think a lot of them happened in the Paramount Theatre in Wellington, but I remember going there for the first time and just being in an audience of, I would say, majority queer people, and to be surrounded by a community. That's right. Amazing. Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, and, and that's the important. I think that was the feeling I had. on that march. It's, it's when you're part [00:54:30] of a You're not, you're not different. You're not alone. All those experiences. Um, I remember for years, you know, I was president of the beer club in Sydney. And every year, of course, we had to organize our beer float. And we, we used to have a big beer event. So, by the time I got to the march, I was exhausted. I, luckily, I drove the truck most of the years. But we had to, you know, but I always remember it was like, Oh my God, I'm tired. [00:55:00] And you drive up, and it was nice, and you're waving the music. But you get to the end, and I get out of the truck, and all these people who had never been in a march before just So damn animated, excited, the buzz of that, and I think, oh shit, it was worth it again. Yeah, but I think that was so important. You know, we must never let the role of collective experience, I'm a sociologist. So [00:55:30] the role of ritual, the role of people coming together. Uh, that's why I think those, those moments of the fair day. You know, that was a fair day, that everyone else, you have all your parish fairs and that, but we now had our own. Um, those dances, that was our dance, it was no different to a country dance, you know, in the Motuaka Hall, you know, and we all bought sandwiches, but that was our [00:56:00] dance. Uh, and so that claiming of who these are our things is so important. You know, I always see things through my well being lens, but they are the things that shift people's well being. They are the things where we know we belong. I talk about well being is where. Uh, we have thriving, uh, uh, strong individuals, strong in their identity, belonging, uh, [00:56:30] contributing, uh, to whanau and to others, their wellbeing and, and participating in safe and inclusive community. That, they are all the three levels which we need to have, as it were, lined up for good well being in communities, um, and that's where I think we did, we achieved a lot. So is this the, uh, thinking behind groups like, say, Rainbow Youth or was [00:57:00] it very, uh, was it kind of planned? Just more pragmatic saying, we need a space. I mean, was it, was that, was that deep level thinking? No, it was the spaces we had to be intentional. It was like there were the need for youth health centers. So there was like, we needed to have people come together because the philosophy is, is we had to break. isolation down. We needed places where people could go and just be and be safe and hear other [00:57:30] stories and it was that kind of peer support model. Uh, and that's where, but also at that policy level we'll, you know, uh, they went and got lottery funding for for the First Rainbow Youth Group. Uh, we started to find out about health some money. Um, the, you know, the AIDS Council had appointed Lee Rampton as the youth coordinator. So, like, we, with the Ministry of Youth Affairs, [00:58:00] Organized the first gay young men's HIV summit. Where we brought together gay young men from all over the country. I remember organizing it, having about 20 people sleeping in my lounge. But we organized it. Uh, and, and the powerful discussion, you know, of people, where people come from. Uh, you know, Nelson and small regional areas. And it was A strong [00:58:30] voice that lasted for several years because we got organized. Uh, we could, we, we, we gathered strong data because of people's stories saying this is the reality. Like, I remember at that, the Gay Youth Conference, we had a men's session, uh, and it was, we were talking about men and being young gay men, and it was kind of like you wait for someone to say something, and someone sort of said is, I [00:59:00] actually don't like being fucked. And suddenly, wow, we had this most incredible conversation about how do we learn to be gay men. You know, what is gay sex? How do we start to take agency and say, No, I don't want to do that. Um, you know, They were, those moments were incredibly powerful because we created spaces for intentional [00:59:30] conversations and that's why I'm a strong believer in, is unless we create space where we go deep to have conversations, change doesn't occur. Like, you can have lots and lots of associates, but unless you have, like, that close friend who's got your back, but where you can have those amazing all night conversations, whether it's the meaning of life, but, you know, framing it from [01:00:00] your sexuality. For older people, it's often debriefing. Like I'm now at the stage where some of my peers are now dying of cancer. And like just, I've been saying to people, it's bloody, you know, we had, we survived the virus and now bloody cancer is getting us. But that's an important conversation to have with someone. Uh, and I think that's where, uh, it's, it's, it's, they, they, they, they, they, they, [01:00:30] It had been, for me, the important moments where people have come together, where we've really seen things happen. Not because someone said up here, let's do it, but young people said, let's do it ourselves and took control. You know, it wasn't adults setting up the groups, it was young people and young people doing it. But I think also [01:01:00] The role of inspirational models were important. And that's why I think the first few hero parties weren't just about a party, it was about heroes. It was about people that we did look up to. Who did we honour? Who did we say were important? We all need to be inspired by people who have [01:01:30] thinking or have ways of understanding and that can articulate In a way, whether it's through art or dance or whatever, our experiences, uh, and that's, you know, we've had some amazing leaders in that way, in that space, um, but once again, What we saw was a change, even like in career [01:02:00] aspirations. Um, you know, we didn't all have to be hairdressers, or if you were a lesbian, drove Wellington buses. Like, we could go to university and get, and work in government and be out. You know, way before we had, like, sort of the PSA, sort of the public zoo, there were people coming together, organizing right through the unions, um, [01:02:30] you know. In a way, when you're involved, you didn't think much of it, but looking back now, I think, my God, what we did, despite of what was happening, I just think. And it was people's just doggedness. And it was also, once again, it was that community leadership where we didn't sit back and wait for someone else to do it. People just got up and did things. It was like we rolled up our sleeves, um, [01:03:00] and it was kind of like, Whether it was, you know, looking after people with HIV, whether it was just all those community things, people saw a need and did something about it. Which is remarkable when you think there is actually a hell of a lot to lose, given that say the Human Rights Act didn't come in until 1994. That's right. Yeah. It was passed in 93. Yeah. But I mean, you know. Prior to that, you could lose your job and you could lose your accommodation. Yeah, [01:03:30] but I think being not, no longer a criminal, It didn't really matter as much. It was important, because we had horrific stories, but we weren't timid anymore. We did so much in that time. But I remember, you know, Kevin Hay organized, we were, it was the, it was the, you know, our youth health conference, it was in Dunedin. And like, he just organized. So many gay, young gay men to go to that conference, and we just took it over. [01:04:00] Like, by the time at the end, there were remits supporting anti discrimination legislation. You know, that was people, you know, young people of all sorts of ages, telling their stories. And that's the thing is, when you tell your truth, People actually can't deny it. And we allowed people to tell their truth. And also to [01:04:30] tell, as it were, where their destination didn't have to be the destination of our past. There was future. Even though people were still dying at that stage. But we saw something more beyond. Which I think was really interesting compared when I was on my Winston Churchill Fellowship in New York. And I remember going to the New York Community Center and they said, oh yes, [01:05:00] we bought the building and we had all this to do. And that was in the very early 80s. And then they said AIDS came along and just took it all away. So all that, all their community action got dissipated into it. But, you know, that was a city ravaged by AIDS. I remember being in a meeting with a whole lot of, sort of, HIV activists, where, uh, and it was halfway through the meeting, all these [01:05:30] little alarms went off, which was telling people to take their AZT. And, and I realized that everyone in that room had the virus, and it was likely within the next two years, two to three years, we'll be dead. And so a whole generation of intellectual, of leadership was absolutely disrupted in our communities. And so we had to almost like [01:06:00] start again. I think the lucky thing in New Zealand, while we did have deaths, we had a much stronger community that took us through that. Just getting back to Rainbow Youth, were So that was what, set up in 87? No, it was a bit later than that. Yeah, 89. Were there other groups around the country that were set up? So we had What we had was, uh, paid [01:06:30] staff, paid people through I think a lottery funding again in Christchurch Patty, and there was a couple of others in their group, uh, paid staff. We had Sean in Auckland setting out Rainbow Youth Wellington. We did so much, we had more local. People, uh, you know, local volunteer. We didn't really have paid staff. Uh, but yes, as I said, there was this culmination of groups [01:07:00] started to appear. Some didn't last. Um, before sort of that, Paul Kinder, when he was in Dunedin, had set up a small group there. Morris had done the work at Wellington High, but now we started to see a more organized approach to it. But I think once again, uh, You know, there was a small group like Tien in [01:07:30] Rotorua. And because I used to travel around the country a lot, I'd often would stay with different groups. But, you know, they were, they were doing things that they, it was, it wasn't like, uh, you know, big education, but they were meeting, they were having, um, they, you know, several little groups got set up, little, like, gay social groups. Suddenly in Napier, you had the little gay group, [01:08:00] pub group, and, you know, and you'd go to the pub. But that was people, um, once again, uh, coming together, um, um, uh. And just daring to be that sort of light in the dark, like, it was almost like the Timaroos. You know, there was that darkness with a lot of people, but suddenly you would start to see people who were like, [01:08:30] like beacons of hope, almost like, in communities. And once again, I don't think if we didn't have that legislation that we would have seen those people. And so were they getting funding, or were they getting funding or resources? No, a lot of these were just doing, you know, we'll meet at a coffee club or we'll meet here. Some started to. We started to see some good organisation via the youth line in Hamilton. [01:09:00] And so a group started there. So all the, so it wasn't like, you know, One model, we sort of like planted it around the place, different, um, so that those, oh, no we did get, no we didn't get funding here, but we did get, Uh, some groups, you know, just really starting to be specific, um, [01:09:30] around the, around, around just being organizing and, and having activities and such like. Yeah. Um, but, sort of like, you know, The group, Rainbow Youth, I think because of its, uh, organization and starting to get more secure funding because it started to get runs on the boards, uh, started to become almost like. So some of the other groups did die, like [01:10:00] they lasted a few years, but that's local leadership, they move on. And so they didn't last. So that testament is by having sort of paid staff, you do get much better integration of programs or groups and such like. What do you think the kind of lasting legacy of groups like Rainbow Youth is? Uh, well, [01:10:30] I think what we have now is generations of, now, middle aged, sort of gay, lesbian, rainbow community members, um, and like at the beginning it was just gay and lesbian, uh, were people who have gone through that process, um, who I think have a better adjusted, um, [01:11:00] understanding of that, who then became like, when we started to talk about, you know, marriage, same sex marriage, when we started to talk about adoption, these were the people who had gone through a process that we're now saying is, well, we want more. Uh, and I think, uh, It has been people being able to, uh, or who have experienced a different way of [01:11:30] being that enables people to think more, to think differently. They haven't got that kind of, uh, baggage of that space. Uh, and so it's easier to demand more. When you see, well, what's the difference, you know, the community wasn't destroyed, people didn't. Um, and the fact that, you know, when we looked at [01:12:00] like marriage equality, like one of the things that switched people, uh, in the, in the, for the vote, for yes, some of the MPs, was all the data we presented about marriage equality. Gay youth mental health and the importance of what we did. Um, so those things were important, but I think we saw a whole range of new people taking on the mantle and doing the work. So with your vast experience [01:12:30] over decades, what are, I mean, what are the issues now for kind of rainbow youth people? Um, I think what it is, is, is how do we, I think it's particularly for trans people, it's like I was just talking, I give supervision to some people who are working in universities, and it's kind of like they say, it's alright, we get the gay and les, we get the sexuality, so that's not an [01:13:00] issue, uh, but I think that still is the issue, is the issue of diversity. See what we're, we're no longer seeing a label in terms of gender. So you're male, so you have to be a gay man. We're seeing a real diversity. Which is very strong and I think really important. So for me it's about is how each time We are facing new social [01:13:30] dynamics, is to make sure that those who are vulnerable in that time, who are starting to join that space, starting to explore for themselves, that we have created the space where their journey of inquiry, what I call their journey to their authentic self, can occur. And, and so once again, you know, harping back because it's, you know, [01:14:00] the cancellation of a, a, a rainbow, um, crossing, uh, the anti trans kind of discussions, the whole debate in sport, you know, about trans people, you know, all of those, Has an impact of someone who is in Tokoroa, who is in a Hamilton, uh, and is wanting to explore that. We have to keep on [01:14:30] keeping that space, those beacons of light that says you can take this journey and it's going to be okay. Yeah, it's interesting, like, I mean, as somebody who's in their 50s now, um, I mean, I guess one of the sad things for me is seeing that kind of, um, fracturing of, of, of, uh, particularly rainbow communities. And, and I guess, you know, like, how, how do [01:15:00] How do you cope with that? I mean, what are your thoughts around that? Well, it's of the fraction we're having more generally in our society. Um, it's, it's, we're not being called to that higher self, to the collective good. And if I feel that I have not, you know, my son hasn't got it, Got all the benefits that all these trans people are getting, or Maori people, you know what I mean, is, is when you start to [01:15:30] build up a resentment, um, I think, you know, one of the interesting things, for instance, in lesbian, has been the older lesbians and the younger lesbians, and I remember at the, at games, at the lesbian caucus, like, the shouting, That went on. Because the young lesbian says we don't want that. That's not our politics. And the older lesbians getting really, really angry. You don't know what we did for you. And [01:16:00] so it's about letting go. Like each new generation has to find their way of expressing it will be different to ours. But also we need to honor and and Of that which has, it's a bit like what is our Anzac Day? The people who fell, you know, who, what was the cost for us in being staunch? [01:16:30] You know, we were exhausted by, a lot of us by the end. You know, it took, we didn't realize it, but it did take a lot out of us. Uh, so I think they are important. Um, For me, what I find distressing is the narrative that's coming out of the kind of this, you know, women only, biological women, is it's the same discourse that we used by our [01:17:00] enemies, as it were, in the homosexual law reform. It's, why can't we be gracious enough to have respectful conversation, because conversation is about seeking understanding. You may still disagree, but at least we understand each other. We felt that we've been heard. And that's what we did in those gay youth groups, is we allowed people to be heard, to [01:17:30] share conversation, to learn. Um, and I think, you know, it's going to be a while, like, coming from public health. Who would have ever thought that vaccinations would be weaponised? You know, all those people who have worked, People have always worked in public health, have a strong sort of social justice being, uh, a real sense of, you know, respect for people, um, [01:18:00] and what, what was being said about people, you know, Michael Baker, who I remember as a young, uh, young man. Epidemiologist at the first, some of the first HIV conferences and always been a staunch ally, but that's where he that was his, um, sort of training ground where he, he got shaped about the role of public health and a social determinants model, a justice based model, [01:18:30] human rights based model. Um, So we are thankful of those allies, those people in our communities who've, you know, um, were there for us. Uh, and that's what we need again. Um, Yeah, I wonder also now, um, particularly with things like social media, where things are very kind of binary, you know, you're either with us or you're against us and, and that doesn't appear to me [01:19:00] anyway, personally, that there's a lot of space for, Complexity. That's right. And actually the celebration of people aren't complex and people have got baggage. It's like I used to always joke in those ads, remember we used to have the personals and people would say no baggage, those people are going to be very lucky because we've all got baggage, it's just the way we carry it, I used to always say. So yeah, it's right. We are, it is that nuance, but that's the nuance, [01:19:30] the difference between sort of stereotyping and prejudice. With stereotyping you think, well, but once you encounter, you change, because the encounter informed you, uh, it wasn't like it was. But now, because everyone's going down their own little burrows, we've got far more, like, prejudicial kind of understanding, you know, it's like this, you've got to be on our side.[01:20:00] Whereas we do, that's why it's about creating, how do we just create a space where people are allowed to be, uh, and, and, and it's okay for them to go on their journey. It's a bit like, you know, with marriage, well, we didn't want to marry all you straight men. If it wasn't going to affect you, you know, what's the fuss? And I think that's what has happened. A lot of people, New Zealanders, they will [01:20:30] It's not going to affect me. So why can't people who are in love? And that's where I just, we've just got it. And it's even to any young people, like when I, if you looked at young people's mental health 10 years ago, it was all about depression, depression, depression. And we would talk about depression and anxiety, because often those words are put together. Now it's all about anxiety. So what is it about our world that young people are so anxious? [01:21:00] So not only are you dealing with the complexity, whether it's of your sexuality or your gender, but you're doing it in a complexity of a world with climate change, with what is our future, um, uncertainty about, Employment, all sorts of things. The cost for education. I love telling my nieces and nephews that my university fees were 108 a year. [01:21:30] You know, and we got paid 30 a week bursary. Yeah, but now you leave a debt. Um, so where in our communities are we being hopeful for younger people? Just generally. Let alone our communities, uh, but that's where I also think the importance of how do we create intergenerational spaces again, because we want the wisdom of older people to say it's okay, you'll get [01:22:00] through this, you know, these are the things, but it was, it, it does take time for change to occur, but don't be disheartened on the way, I think those things are really important. Otherwise, we just get caught up with, you know, nothing's moving. Um, I think we were lucky because things did move, uh, and we influenced things, so it was easy to keep going [01:22:30] 'cause things did happen, but when it stuck, you know, and that's why the role of public policy is important that we do, you know, the, the legislation that allows people to change the agenda on passport. But that's important stuff. Because what we're doing is removing barriers where people can create, can explore their space and claim their legitimacy again. [01:23:00] And that it is recognised. People say, you're valid. We see you. You're not invisible.
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