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Um, yeah. My name's Sam. And I find talking in public quite scary. So apologies for my shaky voice. Um, it's my absolute pleasure to host this amazing group of people today. Uh, we'll be I'll be chairing the discussion, which will be a kind of informal talk. If not, it was like a very formal room. Um, [00:00:30] about our, uh, different approaches to trans activism within New Zealand and the world and dealing with the media and media stories, both stories that are told about us and stories that are created by us. Uh, on the panel today we have Aaron work, who is one of the founders of Equation. Uh, he's currently on the Auckland Council. Rainbow Panel, uh, has worked for Rainbow Youth as the national project coordinator [00:01:00] and is all around great Garden. Myers is an actor, writer and director who's been involved in breaking boundaries. The Writers festival same thing, but different. The Legacy project and is currently working with Short Street, um, advising about their trans character. It was a regular on the show, which I think is particularly for trans masculine people. Maybe the first offshore industry. Um, [00:01:30] next we have Sophie Labelle who's currently touring the world, and we're very lucky to have her here in New Zealand. Um, she's flown all the way from her last stop was Paris, I believe, um, history. She is, uh, is from Quebec and writes the assigned male comic and is an activist teacher and artist. And on the end, we have Emily, [00:02:00] who is the rep at Rado Youth and a spokesperson and one of the founding members for prison and all around activist and wonderful person who's the patriarchy and white supremist supremacist capitalism, which is wonderful. Um, so I wanted to start with saying, Well, today [00:02:30] is not We're not gonna do a kind of trans one on one because I personally find it boring and and this is all down there. So I have the power to chair. Um, but also, I imagine that most people who come along to the panel know a little bit about trend stuff, and I feel like that would be spinning a lot, would not be doing the knowledge of these amazing speakers justice, since they can kind of talk much, much more in depth and further into the work [00:03:00] that they do. Um, I thought maybe we could start with around for from each of you around your approaches to activism or media representation and a kind of brief explanation of the of the work that you do stand with whoever is running around a fist. I was only giving it because [00:03:30] OK, um Hi, everyone. Um, yeah, Um I guess for me, I recently went, um, to Palmerston north to celebrate the 45th anniversary of the Polynesian Panthers. Um, and that it was such an amazing, um that I got to participate in. And one of the questions that, um, that was fired at our way was what kind of activism [00:04:00] do you do? You know, And I actually felt really embarrassed, um, to talk about it because I was like, Oh, I'm not out picketing enough or chaining myself up to, um um to to, um, to things enough. And I was like, Oh, you know, I. I was feeling a bit, you know, But then I I thought about it, You know, my form of of is actually being, uh you know, living the the the way that I want to live to be the person that I I am um [00:04:30] um, as a trans person, um, working in a secular organisation, which, um, doesn't actually understand anything about transgender identity at all. So, um, I think shaking that up every single day for me at work has just been my form of activism. Um, yeah, that is slowly educating people. Um, around. Hey, you know, we don't live in a place [00:05:00] of just binary that we need to decolonize gender, and we need to look at the different aspects of of gender identity. Um and so I guess that for me, um, through education And also, um, you know, through some of the projects that I've been doing, that's I guess that's my form of activism every day to challenge the the the status quo. And also, um, challenge the media as well. Um, by producing narratives that is holding our [00:05:30] own Um, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm quite similar to you in that, like it's taken me a long time to work out that the fact that I that going to protests gives me major anxiety and, um, and that that's kind of not the form of activism that works best for for who I am and what my skills are and to yeah, to come to terms with that. I mean, the activism that I like to [00:06:00] do the most is, um, creative activism and looking at, um, narrative approaches and, um, and representation in those narrative approaches as well, I think looking at the things which get me the most angry, um, and then addressing some of those issues, and they were things like seeing a lot of trans narratives that didn't authentically represent us, um, that were created by acted by, um and, you know, promoted [00:06:30] by non trans people. Um, casting, yeah, casting nonn, trans people. And, you know, and that's so problematic for so many reasons. Um, I think, yeah. And then and so looking at that, um And then I mean, my work with the Legacy project was realising that then we needed to start writing some of those things. And then So I wrote, wrote a few things which had trans characters in them, and then realised that another person was that supporting trans actors to [00:07:00] actually then, um, portray those roles was difficult as well. Because of all the issues. Um, yeah, in relation. You know how much harder it is to be a trans actor than, um and be in those spaces. Um, yeah, I'm nervous talking with a microphone. Um, and another thing I think is about that self care stuff and that community care stuff. Um, and so, yeah, realising for myself that looking after myself and looking after my friends, um, is is activism, [00:07:30] Um, even things like, you know, getting out of bed in the morning and eating three meals a day and things like that, you know, our activist approaches. Um, yeah. So I guess that's kind of an overview of the stuff that I do. All right. Uh, hi, everybody. Uh, thanks for being here. I'm really glad to be part of this wonderful panel with all those people. Um, I arrived in New Zealand yesterday afternoon, so don't mind me if [00:08:00] I'm just, like, if I just go on it. Um, anyway, So, uh, yeah, I draw. I draw a comic about, um, activism and about trans issues, or look at you, look at you. And, uh, I've been doing it for two years, and before that, uh, I was actually training myself on stuff. Um, because I was I've been doing activism both in trans and feminist communities [00:08:30] for about a decade. Uh, but also, I've been employed in Montreal's Ecologist movement and also the student movement for which, um, I kind of ruined my health in this. And, um and I started this comic, uh, for maybe two reasons. Uh, one was that, You know, I was I was getting older, and I couldn't change myself on on stuff like I I used to. [00:09:00] And, uh, I would I would see, um, younger activists that Yeah, I thought that I saw everything to do with my back, Actually, Just my back. Um, yeah, but by the way, sorry for the strong French Canadian accent. Uh, I was born that way. Like I didn't ask to to. Anyway, I'm slowly transitioning with my comic, [00:09:30] you know, transitioning towards a more international accent. Sorry for the bad puns. Oh, my God. So, uh, I would see younger activists, you know, people that just arrived on the activism scene, and I would see them just, uh, throwing everything. They got into activism and spending all their energy debating with devils advocates on Facebook. Uh, you know, endlessly. People [00:10:00] that don't really care about those issues. And I would see those activists just just giving all the the the gut to, um to the girls. And I was like, we we've built knowledge we've been We've been building community knowledge for for decades, and and still, we we we we keep repeating the same stuff, and and, um, we're losing a lot of energy in this. And, uh, what what can I do to, um, you [00:10:30] know, to just, uh, summarise everything that I've been doing, uh, while doing activism in Montreal. And so how I started my comic mainly to, uh, to end useless debates on social networks? Um, with a with a joke And like turning the issues into stuff that is at the same time empowering for trans communities. But also, um, gives, uh, kind of, [00:11:00] uh, tips for people that want to, uh uh to educate themselves. Really? And so that that's one of the reasons I started a comment. The other reason is mostly because of the media. Um, I was talking with some over eggs this morning about, uh, the fact that before doing that comic, I was you might have seen the posters. You might have seen the posters. It says that I'm I'm a a legendary camp counsellor who wrote that. [00:11:30] Anyway, um, I was I. I was organising this, uh, trans, uh, this summer camp for trans Children in in Quebec. And, uh, the media got really interested in it. And, uh, so they, um most of the big media in both Quebec and Canada. I wanted interviews with me and with the kids mostly. And I would, uh, yeah, [00:12:00] I would see them just be so problematic towards those kids' bodies, mostly, and towards transition issues in general. And they would feel entitled to give so many personal information, uh, about our bodies and our identity. And like, Anyway, it was just really gross. And, um and yeah, when I came back from that camp, uh, that year, uh, that is when [00:12:30] I, uh I decided to take upon me to create this comic, and so, uh, I'm doing it full time now. I kind of let the chaining behind me. I don't change myself on, uh, on stuff anymore. Uh, I don't know if I have a good occasion to do it like, give me ideas. I mean, we can train ourselves to something now, like we don't Yes. Yeah, yeah. OK, [00:13:00] let's put the shoes that I'm wearing today. Um, so I'm Emmy and I. I wear a couple of hats at the moment, so I I'm here as a for you, Um, and also as like, a really angry communist. So, um, forgive me if I slip between registers. Um, so I do I think about activism, and, um, a couple couple kind of I use a framework from a theoretical man who does, um, especially, um, military historian, but he speaks about, um, [00:13:30] getting things done on terms of three layers. There's, uh, tactics, strategics and logistics. Um, the tactical is how to win a battle. So if you need to to kill someone, then shooting the guy is tactics. Um, and strategics is assembling these battles into a campaign. So how to turn battles into wars and how to win those wars? That's the the layer of strategics. And then finally, there's logistics, which is how to assemble, um, society or a group or an organisation or a movement, um, to carry out these campaigns. [00:14:00] Um, And if you're not operating on each of those levels effectively, then you will be killed. Um, so in front of prisons, um, tactically, we've made some mistakes. So, um, two years ago, we tried to direct action with three people. Um, and I got tombstone pile driven by a security card, and he broke my arm. Um, and I learned from that and I I learned from, um a lot of examples. And I look at a lot of military history. I read a lot of history of, um, colonisation [00:14:30] in this country, which is basically the best lesson that you will ever get and how things operate is watching how this country was invaded by the New Zealand government. Um, that's the really the, um the abstract principle that I I look at when I try to consider what we should be doing is, um, if, hypothetically, this is a war, how would we want to win that war? Um, and when I say hypothetically, I don't mean hypothetically at all, because this is a war [00:15:00] as far as the land wars are still going. So, um, that's always been my outlook, but, um, to take off my angry communist hat, Um, you, I think of is largely a logistical and strategical um, level for activism to take place. So there's, um, education work. Um, there is making sure that kids don't kill themselves before they get old enough to take up a fight. Um, maybe that's a very instrumental way of thinking what these young people can do. But [00:15:30] we need to We need to think about, um, strategically how we're gonna fix anything if we're all dead or if we don't know who we are or if we have shitty politics. Because we won't talk to the people who wanted to transfer 101. Um so that's kind of how I would see the split that ran prisons is largely a tactical and strategic organisation, and this is largely a strategical logistical organisation. Um, and there's value at all of those layers because if you fuck up on any one of them, then you fuck [00:16:00] everything up. Um, there's a There's like a a tendency to valorize a direct action. I think in activist spaces kind of going like, Well, if you haven't change yourself to anything, or if you haven't yelled at a cop in the last 12 months, maybe you're fake. Um, and that's that's not a useful at issue. Um, but I do think that it is really important to take direct action. Um, because it's very, very easy to ignore everything else that we do. Um, it's very easy not [00:16:30] to notice. Um, this kind of educational work or support work or efficacy work that goes on, um and you know, both No prisons. And remember, you have to do a lot of that kind of behind the scenes non non sexy, that very, very important work. Um, and, you know, so does everyone on this panel. And so do most of you. To be honest, maybe this is a a very long, kind of sending ramble about stuff that you already know. Um, but, um, I hope that at the very least, [00:17:00] um, thinking about the the three layers and how those how we operate those I think is a way of organising activism to make sure that we do, you know, we do win and we do win. And we do have the resources to you know, to do that. I I agree. I agree. I agree. I don't want to drop out. In the last couple of weeks in New Zealand, there's been a lot in the media [00:17:30] around, um, the homosexual law reform. And I've noticed I noticed a certain privileging of of certain narratives around how that law law change came about the heroes of that, um, how do you think? And this is for any or all of them. How do you think that privilege plays a role in the sorts of stories? All the sorts of people, um, that the media chooses to, um, either demonise [00:18:00] or sanctify. What's the other word? Like making the heroes. Some of you might have, um, come to the, um, 30th law reform, Um, party that, um Well, not party, but celebration that we had, uh, for the Auckland Council, um, to talk about, you know, we invited a whole lot of people, um, for that day to come [00:18:30] and come along, um, to talk about, you know, the the the process and everything, but something that really did struck me was, um, just that this this is not this is not over. You know, the celebration is You know, that day for me was you know, being one of the only trans person on the panel you know was highlighting the point that cool that there are some laws that have ivig some people [00:19:00] in our community. But there are so, so much more that we still need to remember and fight and remember the lives of of the people that we have lost in our, uh, in our personal lives or in our own community. Um, and I think it's also, as you know, as to re re rehash that over and over again. Um, for some of us who have that energy to remind other people that this is not over, um, and also [00:19:30] to challenge, you know, the people of influences with media as well that call this day is a day of celebration. But there's also still so much work to be done. Yeah. Um, there was this campaign that, um well, the the first time I got really implied with, uh, trans activism was a couple of years ago when, uh, Quebec's government, uh, went, uh, on this campaign against [00:20:00] homophobia, and I, uh, I'm an elementary school teacher. That's my career. Uh, it's been put aside for a comic purposes. Uh, but, uh, yeah, it was mostly a campaign that that was aimed at, uh schools, elementary schools and high schools. And, uh, it was basically, um, just, uh the campaign was about, uh would you call this person gay? Does that person look gay? [00:20:30] And like, it was just so problematic. And, um and yeah, I somebody who's been working with Children and, um, like, elementary school levels for most of my life. Now, um, this this really hit home? Uh, since I knew that the kids that were being bullied at school weren't people that were bullied because of their romantic or sexual preferences, but because [00:21:00] of their gender expression and how they didn't look straight and that and that got me really angry to see this campaign that was aiming at saying, Oh, we don't look gay, so you can't really hit us. And so yeah, yeah, totally. I feel that the narrative that we, um, that even inside our communities I mean, I went out in the media against this campaign, [00:21:30] and that got me a lot of hate from Brian and also the big organisations in Quebec because, you know, they were working hard on this. Yeah. Sorry, I wasn't crying. I was laughing, but it might be a bit of crying. I don't know. So, um so, yeah, this has direct consequences, because this campaign has, um, ran through two years and, [00:22:00] uh, once that there was a poster and a part of a commercial that was aired, uh, where we would see a trans person. But it was a you know, this binary older trans women and the commercial would ask, uh, would would you, uh, be transphobic with that person if she was your sister. Anyway, that was That was, um, like you would see all this, Norma. And this kind of, um [00:22:30] uh, this kind of behaviour that we we've been seeing, Uh, well, from what I know, I wasn't born then, um, but, uh, I've been told by many activists that that's how it came to be mostly by historians of the the movement, uh, that after the AIDS epidemic, uh, there was this, um this kind of foot. Well, we have to a know it that the most radical, uh, part of, uh, what we would call, [00:23:00] uh, the LGBT communities or the gay and lesbian movement back then. And the most radical elements, uh, were the first to to fall, uh, on battlefield And then And, uh and, yeah, there was this, uh, this kind of, um uh, this kind of idea that we had to, you know, present, like a normal people and often the ones that were, uh, put aside, This were trans people gender, non confirming people. [00:23:30] And And I feel we're still struggling to find, uh, to to get our place back in this movement that that we started. I mean, uh, the first rebellions, the first, uh, times that we stand stood up against police. And I guess, uh, oppression was because of oppression based on gender expression and and also race and and so, yeah, I feel that we still haven't got that place back. And, [00:24:00] uh, the fact that we're promoting such normative narratives is the is mostly what keeps us from from getting it back. I think it's like it's, um So Erin was talking before about the, um the the council celebration of the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform. This is a different thing that we're about to completely trash, So I'm sure I'm sure it was lovely. Don't don't conflate the Gabba one. Yeah, that was that was really different [00:24:30] to clarify that. Um, So there was that one, which was real cool. Um, which is a casino. Um, gaba. Who are? I'm sorry. They're called Auckland now. They're a business association run by wealthy Ponson. Be, um, to have their their celebration of the third and 30th anniversary. Um, it was 100 and $25 for tickets. They had a prison themed bar. [00:25:00] What? Yeah, it's the cutest thing that I've ever seen. And it really kind of summed up this weird. No, not weird. This completely reasonable, um, prioritisation of different people's lives. Where, um because, you know, um, when I had my arm broken, Um, the president of GABA whose name is Heather Carnegie. Uh, she's blonde, Um, was, um, sitting in front of me while I was, um, having my handcuffs put on by the cop on my back, telling me how ashamed I should be of myself for ruining the day and making everything really bad. [00:25:30] Um, it basically just berated me for the 30 to 45 minutes that it took them to let me see an ambulance. Um, and like on its own, that's a horrible thing to do. But then after that, after having been criticised for the last, you know, year and a half about the role that prisons play in portraying like violence. That's so bad that I'm not gonna say what it is during this conversation. Um, but, you know, to have been blasted with that stuff for [00:26:00] the last year and a half for them to still opt to do a prison thing. But because I guess you can't go to prison just for being gay anymore, Um is really interesting, because, like, yeah, you can't go to prison because you you know, just because you're gay because that's not a criminal offence anymore. Unfortunately, we're still actually really fucking criminalised, which is why there are so many Trans women in prison at the moment. That's why there are still actually a whole bunch of queers who are in prison and wouldn't be there if they weren't queer. But that never occurred to these people because, um, they've never thought [00:26:30] outside of that, and they've never gone Well, you know I'm gay, so I can't go to prison for being gay. But more importantly, you can't go to prison because you're, um because you're because you aren't caught up on all these little traps that the rest of us have to fucking crawl through every day. Um, this is campaign, um, to to get historical convictions for homosexual activity wipes, um, or forgiven or whatever. The technical term is that, um, older gay men can go overseas again [00:27:00] because you can't do that if you have a criminal conviction. And that's really interesting, because rather than go well, no, you should be able to go overseas. Even if you've had a criminal conviction, they've gone on a don't count. We deserve it. The rest of those people who have been convicted for having drugs or selling drugs, they're actually the bad people. So rather than trying to deal with the actual violence that was gone Oh, no, it shouldn't affect us. It should take everyone else. That's fine. Uh, they earned it by virtue of being too brown or too poor. Um, but we never deserved it. We've acted [00:27:30] it, um, by being we have been caught up in this trap that was never meant to affect us. Um, it was me. You know, if it catches Maori, that's fine. Because we conquered them. And if it affects you know, drug users. Well, that's fine, because they made their choice. Um, but I'm a respectable white. I run a business. My life is worth objectively worth more than anyone else is. Um, just turn into a ramble. It usually is. [00:28:00] I don't know how to follow that. Um, yeah, it just the one thing that I was thinking about when talking about the 30 year anniversary, I was like, Well, we haven't even reached Yeah. Zero of removing of adding gender identity, the Human Rights Act. Um, so, you know, let's have a party when that counter starts? Um, yeah, I guess just thinking about because I think about this a lot as well that I feel like, quite uncomfortable in [00:28:30] some of the spaces that I'm in because people invite me or because you because of privilege and things like that, because people ask me to do things or invite me to spaces where other trans people, particularly like trans women and trans people of colour, aren't invited to. Um and and I feel this sort of weird vibe of wanting to use, like, use that privilege to, you know, be like a spy. Almost sometimes I feel [00:29:00] like that. Like I'm sneaking into these spaces being like you all think that I'm totally respective of? Well, lol Um, yeah, but at the same time, I feel this weird thing. About what If I start believing in that, like, what If what if? Because I'm in those spaces and then because the way I, you know, have to we have to act again in order to then go cool. Thanks for inviting me here. Also, my friends are coming like or that's cool. But you have missed out all these huge groups, [00:29:30] you know, in your discussion about trans issues or things like that. Um, yeah, and And that uncomfortableness about kind of both wanting to appear a lot more gender, queer and and and gender blurry about things. But also going then am I losing some ability to go into spaces and do activist work because of that? Like it's Yeah, and it's I haven't worked it out, and I and I know even talking about it sounds kind of weird [00:30:00] and and stuff like that. But it is something that I think about, you know, that toss of about the authenticity of myself versus what kind of added changes Could I make if I'm more binary and stuff like that? And again, even being able to say that, you know, is is pointing out that this is a problem, because we do. We have a huge amount of Yeah, like, yeah, binary privilege for people who, you know, appear binary or are binary trans people. You [00:30:30] gonna say? Yeah, well, that makes me think of, um, my, you know, international activism. Because, you know, I I'm travelling most of my time to give talks and being invited in different countries. And I know I have many trans friends who couldn't do that because of document, like legal documents or papers and, uh, not appearing binary enough. Or like all those questions about passing and, um, like, [00:31:00] it is a very big privilege to be able to have access to to those places or to, um, those, uh, opportunities to, um to go outside your own country, you know, and, uh, yeah, that that that really hits a lot of, uh, south spot in me. I wanna I wanna jump on board on this whole binary. Yeah, OK, cool. Yeah. Um, as someone who works in a very, [00:31:30] extremely binary, um, workplace. Um, I think, you know fucking things up from the centre is, you know, one of the best ways, you know, like the infiltrator. And they just, like, like, just, you know, just fuck things up and fuck with people's mind. You know, it's amazing. It's brilliant. You know, I've had these big, like, bulking like like sis, hetero men who have just been so uncomfortable by just the way [00:32:00] that, you know, I've come into work. You know, there's some, you know, like for me if I get scared. I have a really high pitched scream, and it's like a that wasn't very masculine. I'm just like, excuse me, Don't put your fucking like gender shit on me, you know? And I will be like, Oh, shit, you know, And it's just like But with that, you know, it's it's it's incredible how much like people just need to have to put you in this box of, you know, you have to live up to, um, this masculine or feminine, [00:32:30] um, identity for in order for them to feel comfortable, Um, and for you to do all the emotional labour, um, that if they get? Um uh, you know, like all pissed off about your identity. It's it's it's your problem to deal with all that labour to, you know, expand their mind and all this kind of stuff, which, which has kind of been really interesting because, um, I actually started having a a miss pronoun jar at at work. [00:33:00] Um, yeah, where, like, people had to, um, put put money into it. And so I had these big, hulking men to be like, It's not in my contract to say that I have to put money in your jar. And I'm like, Well, you know what? When you can be more respectful, then I'll put it away. And, you know, it's been three months. It's literally It's taken three months for some of these big, hulking men to, But, you know, you know, with that, um, and you know, it's [00:33:30] interesting, because at work I've had to be more masculine than I'd like to be, But it's actually really interesting that this progression it's it's, you know, they've gone back to talk to their wives or talk to people in their own community. Where now that if someone actually miss, uh pronouns me. They actually start jumping on board to be like, Sorry, who are you talking about? You know, and that's that. It's actually quite incredible, even though, like, for three months, it's just been like, Fuck me. [00:34:00] I hate everybody at my work. Um, but it's it's yeah, the whole infiltrating, you know? And you know, I mean, speaking of the different tactics as well, you know, um, I'm starting to slowly, like, educate them in that way of, you know, binary, like they're it's it's really unnecessary. Yeah. Oh, I just said something this you made me think about, um, a while ago, me and some friends did a kind of presentation [00:34:30] at a at a church. Actually, that was talking, um, because him and his family go there, and he came out as Trans, and it was basically to just kind of give people some understanding about trans issues. And I did a poem which was largely about how confusing and painful I find talking about gender stuff and my own gender and and, you know, male privilege and and female socialisation and kind of all that stuff like that. Um, yeah. And then this [00:35:00] one guy comes up to me afterwards, and he's like, Man, you're like the manliest guy I've ever met. And I was like, I don't I knew it was coming from a good place, and I was like, I was like, thank you. And he was like, he taught me so much about trans stuff today. Like, that was really cool. But it just it just really It was so funny that his number one compliment for me was like, Wow, that was so like, hard core, like a dude. Like, Thanks. [00:35:30] Yeah, a few of you touched on this, um, before and I just wanted to unpack some of the stuff around how, how? As activists we can practise, um, ways of talking ways of improving things for trans people. But do so in a way that also highlights things like colonisation, things like trans misogyny, things like classism in ways that don't mean that we're gonna charge [00:36:00] 100 and $25 out of jail. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, that's a, um that's a big question. Like the If, you know, it had worked out a really good answer for that, we wouldn't be having this panel um, you know, we'd be sitting on the rubble town hall or something. Yeah, it's really difficult to do [00:36:30] activism effectively, or I mean, I don't really think of this as activism. I think of it as organising because you don't to say that this is activism here, and everything else or something else. Really, um, tends to to centralise the the area of things that get stuff done within a very narrow range of things that you do. So, um, yeah, I think there are a range of things that we can organise that work really well. And there's a range of things we can organise that don't work. Really? Well, [00:37:00] um, that's maybe a bit of a talk, but, um, the the goal is to do stuff that works really well and not do the stuff that doesn't work really well, once you figure that one out, um, things go really well, um, but it's the working out what does and does not work, which is a really hard bit. And it's taken a really long time, you know, in my life to figure out what works really well and what doesn't. And I'm sure, you know, in 20 years time, Um, I'll send a letter from prison going. I think I've changed my mind about what works really well. And what doesn't, [00:37:30] Um, but for the for the moment, I think that really it's, um It's thinking about things from the outside and thinking about how we can let the outside of these things that we are fighting against, how to let that move us. So how to let the outside of Western civilization move us and act in accordance with that as a really important way of fighting white supremacy. How to let the outside of prisons the outside of prison thinking move us is a really important part of any [00:38:00] prison abolitionist. Um, programme. I mean, Maori, you know, got Maori stuff. Um, but, you know, dealing with the history of colonisation in this country requires us to think the outside of colonisation and to lead, um, you know, whatever forces live outside of colonisation, move us and act through us. Um, I really think that a kind of surrendering of the south, um, and a surrendering of power away from our own [00:38:30] agencies and giving it up to, um, you know, whatever obscure forces exist out there. The things that we need to destroy has been the most effective way that I have gotten anything done. So, um, giving up on trying to make sense within the world that we want to destroy is really important. So, um, giving up on trying to make sense under white supremacy is an important part of of living authentically as maori. Um, and giving up on [00:39:00] trying to be able to continue to exist under white supremacy is an important part of being Maori. I mean, any Maori activism which continues to try to make sense with white supremacy, just ends up being, you know, a corporate or, um, you know, any trans which tries to make sense. And, um, the world ends up having fucking a prison themed bar. Um, I don't know. It's difficult to to pin down exactly how [00:39:30] we can be complicit in the outside of these things. Um, I guess it really has been for me. I looked for what was the most frightening. What was the most, um, terrorising, um, about stuff. So the most terrorising thing about the outside of prisons is that maybe we need to consider that and people's lives are never just as and thinking about how we can, um, live in ways that take as a given that nobody's life is disposable and starting from that that [00:40:00] base premise or, um, starting with like a given true thing has been really useful for me in finding what is the right thing to do and what is the wrong thing to do. I don't know how much sense that makes I'm on a lot of cold medications. No, I totally agree with that as well. And yeah, that idea about no matter what everyone's life is is worth. You know, everyone is worthy and everyone is loved as an [00:40:30] absolute non-negotiable unconditional basis to things. Um, because, yeah, it's too easy to go to throw people away. Um, I'm just trying to remember what the what? The question was as well, like, Have you been it wasn't written down. It was, um how do we work in ways that kind of like what you were saying Where, um, we with the campaign around homophobia [00:41:00] being like, if you look nice, then you don't deserve to be bullied. Which kind of implies that if you don't look nice, then you do deserve to be bullied. So how do we take? How do we make sure that all of our people, particularly the most marginalised voices, are heard within our our sort of activism? Well, then, you know, it's intersectional critical things, always with everything. And that's I mean, that's kind of what I was thinking about before as well is that you know, the spaces that I have access to [00:41:30] and I'm presenting in a more binary way and things like that. You know, I'm always going who isn't here, who isn't being heard who can't access this because of money because of, um, disability because of, um, class or race or all of these things like that, Um, and and pointing that out, I think, um, you know, I I don't speak on issues of which I'm don't affect me like that because there are obviously much better people to talk about those things. But pointing out when those people [00:42:00] aren't around to be heard, um is kind of, I guess, one of the the main things that I do in that space as well. Um, because it is as easy unless you're going. Yeah, unless you're thinking about those things to go. Oh, of course. It makes sense to charge 100 and $25 and, you know, to get into things like that where it's like if you'd asked anyone that wasn't in the in group of which you're part of, they would have said, Hey, that's ridiculous. Um, yeah, yeah, [00:42:30] I remember when I was younger, you know, I I would spend when I was 789 year old. Um, I would spend hours at the library just trying to find a book that would, you know, represent me or, um or just like that, I have a character that looks like me, And, uh, I get that a lot drawing this comic, uh, you know, people that see themselves in my in my character. So without me even talking [00:43:00] about the issues, you know, I have a deaf, a deaf trans character that appears some on my comic. I never talk about deaf, deaf community issues just because I'm not deaf. I don't know much about it. It's just I. I just put that character there and I I get messages so often of people that are just so thankful to that I have this character without even mentioning this particular struggles that this character goes through. [00:43:30] And I, I feel that representation is something that's very important. Um, this way. And, uh, I get messages often, uh, from movie producers or, um, you know, people that are writing a book and they want to include, uh, trans characters. And they ask me for advice on how to include trans characters and, I don't know, it seems so, um, it seems so absurd to me that we are [00:44:00] seen as being such a, uh, so outside of society that we need, like, instruction manuals to, uh, just have a character that that is from our community just in a book, while just just mentioning that that character is trans without analysing trans miso and like, uh, particular struggles. Or you don't need to be, uh, an academic. You don't need to [00:44:30] study, uh, gender and stuff to be able to write a character that happens to be trans, you know, And people have this view, uh, of of our communities and even more of, um, you know more, uh, people that, uh, are situated in more intersectional, uh, positions than I am, uh, people have this view that they need to be specialised in us to just [00:45:00] mention us and that that isn't true. And I feel that representation as this power. I mean, I. I don't know if anyone's like me, but when I was younger, I would, uh any time there was a gentle, nonconforming character in a movie, I would add a copy of that movie, and I would just run through the same sequence or the same scene of the movie again and again and again, just to, uh just to see myself and the the character. And [00:45:30] and so, yeah, just just, uh, produce more characters and include us more. That doesn't mean to that you have to read everything by Julia Serrano and like, you don't you don't need a degree to include diversity in, um in cultural stuff. I think you know, it's all good and well to talk about Intersectionality um, and a lot of, but for me, it's It's also [00:46:00] making sure that I'm not being elitist in that sense of, you know, the community that I work in and the the the job that I I'm in a lot of the times. You know, these frameworks, these ideologies are still a very Western con concept and very western construct of how we negotiate and deal with people in that way. Um, that that can, you know, often further separate us, you know? And I think one of the things that [00:46:30] I, you know, I've been teaching myself a lot is actually giving myself my own consent to be OK to be the, you know, I don't know what colour I am, but, you know, the the whole, you know, angry POC person you know of not being toned police on a day to day basis, but can think myself that I can be that person. And I can be that angry person because these these these issues are are they're they're [00:47:00] my everyday life. They are. They're they're the people that I work with their everyday life. But also, how do we move things in in secular, um, groups? Um, where, um, a lot of people don't understand. Um, this this kind of like the the intersectional differences of what this might affect This because of this might affect us in that way. And that's something that you know, um, that you know, for [00:47:30] me, as someone who works in these communities, I'm very aware of the cultural framework that some people might be coming from that I have to work around. So you know that I cannot actually put my, you know, concepts and and, you know, so be it a very, very western ideology framework sometimes And enforce it on to, you know, because that that would be no better or a a modern form of colonisation through through theory. You know, um [00:48:00] and but still being able to be true and stay true to who I am. Um, because I work in a very, um, 90 90% of who I work with are people of colour. Um, and and you know, when it comes to decolonization and the the concept of decolonizing gender and, um, and a mostly Maori and Pacific, um, demographic, um, and community that I work in, you know, there must there has to be a lot of consultation, um, [00:48:30] and consent from from, um, you know, elders that II I, um Yeah, um, to not come from another framework of No, this is how you have to think. This is how da da da da. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I heard the word colon is actually so, like, speaking like specifically as like, a person. Um, we don't really want to talk about, like, gender and sexuality and stuff. There's always this hard limit that we grew up against. Um, and [00:49:00] that's that, um, all of all of our discourses and all of the long, long, long conversations about what bodies mean and what bodies touching each other can mean All of that knowledge was massacred. Um, when we were invaded and all of those conversations were murdered and and fill up mass graves all up in another country. That's the The absolute limitation for us is that as indigenous people, [00:49:30] there is always a point. We walk up against it and go thus far and no further. Um, there's nothing more that we can know about what that means, because it was taken from us. Um, as as like, a queer Maori person. Um, we didn't know what the word for queer was in our language till 1980. When was looking at a manuscript of the the history of, um and who are two lovers from, um, the Seattle Art tradition. Um, and the story [00:50:00] is quite well known in most places. It's just about, um, loves Tanika, even though he's, uh, he's not a noble family or anything. He's just a flute player. But she falls in love with him and she runs off and they presumably have kids. Um, and that's that's fine. And that's that's That's great. But there's actually way more to that story. And so, um, looked at an original manuscript from the 18 hundreds. Um, when the story was first transcribed to Maori and then translated into English and the [00:50:30] translator, they found a lot of shit. Um, so actually had, um what is called in the, um it sounds a lot like just a lover who is a guy, and that's actually a really significant part of the original text. Is the negotiation of that very complex relationship that's going on with. But he is, um, And if it hadn't been for one scholar [00:51:00] one time noticing one word in one manuscript, um, we never would have known to call ourselves because that would have just been gone. Um, and that's that's kind of it, isn't it that, um, for us, everything is super precarious. Um, and, you know, don't have to worry quite so much about, um, what they call themselves or, um, where their stories come from, because, um, they never got invaded [00:51:30] because they were the ones invading. Um, but there's no absolute limit that they'll come up against when they try to think about their history. Um, or, you know, if there is at least there's a written record of it somewhere. Um, and at least there has been, you know, an active government running their country, trying to stop that history out wherever it is. Um, and so in like a modern context in terms of practise, how we teach is really important. Because if [00:52:00] we don't teach Maori kids about, um, we're back in that same situation again where, um, you know, in 100 years I don't want my to have to look back through. You know, maybe that's this this transcript here to try to figure out what to call themselves I. I want those those knowledge to survive and, you know, for so long, the the queer movement in this country has made no effort [00:52:30] whatsoever to try to make sure that like Maori, but like, in particular, has had any place in movement whatsoever, let alone like a really important one, which I think it deserves. Um, with that said, like a lot of people do a lot of really good work, like Aaron and like re youth who I am. I initially you know, this isn't to say like, it's great because when I turned up, I was like, Fuck, remember you So that's why I joined. But they're actually really good [00:53:00] and you know, I, I know. But it's important because I was really angry because a lot of the work that was being done by primarily queers was not catering to the needs of Maori queers. And, um, you know, that's been a priority remove for the last two years. Now I think they're doing really, really well. Um, but it's really easy not to do really well. A lot of people don't don't fucking prison. I have about [00:53:30] 10 million more questions on my piece of paper back, and I was supposed to leave time for doing Q and a But we've gone way over time already. It's seven past three and we're supposed to finish at three. Time is I'm not sure if you guys need need to run away or whether we can open it up to one or two. I'm sleeping here. Alright, then I'll throw it out to the audience for [00:54:00] one or two questions for the group or one or two people. Or if you want that this is for Sophie. I really like your comic, by the way. This is awesome. Um, what's been the hardest thing doing your comic and starting it up? Um, the hardest thing. Um, well, a couple of weeks after I started it in just a couple of weeks, [00:54:30] Like I had maybe maybe, like, 60 followers, all from my university and from my group of friends and still manage to find it and get really angry at it. Uh, stands for, uh I know no 101. Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm gonna say it anyway. Thanks for trans exclusionary, radical feminist feminist in brackets [00:55:00] radical bracket. Um, they're radically trans exclusionary, though. And, um and so Yeah, I got filed on this website and they managed to find every bit of information they could about me and they they just started, like, producing lots of, um, lots of things about me, especially as I was. As I said, I was working with kids and so, you know, a trans [00:55:30] working with Children. Oh, my God. And, uh, yeah, that really hurt me a lot. And, uh, I really reconsidered drawing the comic over, like, at all. And I was like, Is this really worth it? Because it was really putting my teaching career on, uh, on the ice, and and, uh, yeah, that's, uh, actually what? I decided to go, um uh, to really make it a bigger project because, [00:56:00] uh, there was more to lose at stake. Um, as I was already filed, and I was already being watched by those groups by those hating groups, and and, uh, yeah, that made me, uh, so anxious that I wouldn't sleep at night for many weeks. And, um, after that, you know, many other groups came along because, uh, they didn't like my comic. And so that apparently was a [00:56:30] good enough reason to, uh, start creating those hating groups about me. You know, people don't like a comic. They just I don't know. Let's just let's just buy a diamond to mock this author and they had to do that. They do that. And, uh, yeah, that was probably the biggest challenge. Was to, um to decide to fight back. And, uh and I feel that I wouldn't be here today if [00:57:00] that wasn't of those, uh, add attacks that I got very early on because, um uh, that gave that. Also put that also gave me a lot of, um of sympathy from, uh, from the public from the audience in general because, you know, people would be like, huh? So this person is making those groups angry, so that person must actually be pretty cool. That's [00:57:30] how that's how I work. You know, I, I look at who gets angry at who. And I'm like, OK, I choose my side and, uh, this kind of polarisation of the debate kind of, um, put my comic on the spotlight, I. I feel that that was the biggest challenge at first. But I also feel that it brought me a lot, uh, emotionally and in terms of, uh, support. I got a lot of support from people like I know who would be supporting [00:58:00] me and stuff like that. So, yeah, that was, um, the biggest issue, especially as a you know, when you're doing trans activism online. Um, like, maybe it seems easy from the outside to, uh, to produce articles and, uh, or comics or anything. Uh, you know, you feel like you just just do it and and it's out there. It's easy, but, uh, but most of the people that I know that are [00:58:30] producing content I don't know about, but most Most of the the online activities that I know are are go through that kind of things, and and there's just nothing that, uh, authorities will do. And there's nothing. There's no way to, uh, to fight back at them, especially as you know, those groups have a lot of power. I mean, if you look at, uh, all their resources that websites like Reddit or for [00:59:00] can put together just to arrest somebody, it's it's pretty intense, and, um and yeah, that makes it really, uh, precarious to, uh, to decide to do this kind of job and, um, but at the same time, it's a very difficult conversation because I don't want anyone to think that, um, they shouldn't do it because it's vital, you know, we need we need visible people [00:59:30] both online and, uh, and outside the Internet. Um, the Internet is a really nice place. Otherwise, I. I mean, I came out on the Internet and like many people and overall, you know, uh, the support is a lot bigger than the hate. I get online. And but yeah, it's, um it's always very, uh, very a very sensitive subject. [01:00:00] Um, I just wanted to say thank you. I appreciate it. Give me an ER because I think it's really interesting from someone, and it's really interesting talking to people about gender and things because they don't seem to understand that binary, and even like gender discourse and colonial context is very much a colonial. You know, like there's, [01:00:30] uh I was talking to Frank recently that there's no real translation for people of colour who aren't transgender, but you kind of get placed into the system thing, and it's it's really good to kind of hear both of you talk about the place that colonisation has had in these discussions around parents and gender. There's a lot of so I don't know, there are some people here, but people love to talk about [01:01:00] and and this is of those things and elitism like we can speak over you about your in and yeah, how do you deal with places like prisons? Have a lot of white folders and it's really cool to hear that you're talking about, like, reflecting on problems that come up in organising. How do you kind of [01:01:30] navigate that thing where you ensure that your group which is which is centred around indigenous people How do you memory of white people who in theory mean support indigenous sovereignty but in practise, subconsciously and unconsciously kind of perpetuate the I guess, further colonisation. Yeah, [01:02:00] it's I don't want to unless little flies on the mic. So I'll chuck them over at a And, um, yeah, it is really difficult or with your house. Um, and I don't think that that is because white people are made out of evil. Or if you, if you cut the mayonnaise, will come out or anything like it's It's not a, um, like an objective truth that white people can't have good politics or white people can't be part of the movement because they can. Um, there's like white people have, like the Panthers White people have always been part of radical [01:02:30] movements. And I think if you try to centre a radical movement on a kind of identitarian notion that there's the revolutionary class which is solely marginalised people and there's the enemy and that's solely or solely straight people. Um, not only are you misrepresenting like who is actually capable of revolutionary labour, Um, but you're throwing out a whole bunch of like, potential foot soldiers. Metaphorically, not actual soldiers. That was a joke. Um, but [01:03:00] yeah. And it's also, um, there's a tension because there will be, like, counter revolutionary tendencies among those populations. But, I mean, there's counterrevolutionary tendencies amongst every population. Brian is Maori, and he's still the worst piece of shit. Um, yeah, it's difficult because, um, not only do we live in the era of colonisation, um, but we we can still colonise ourselves. We still know we can. We [01:03:30] can We can still perpetuate colonialism or colonial thinking in our own spaces. Um, again, like here is a really good example, because he claimed that there was never any gay Maori, and somehow also, if there were ever any gay Maori, they would have been executed. Um Somehow he managed to hold both of those opinions at once. But it's a great example of the kind of incoherent shit that you get when you try to think colonially because it just doesn't make sense. That didn't make any sense. Um, but, you know, Maori can still do that. [01:04:00] So, um, you know, if we can do it definitely can do it. But, you know, that doesn't mean that we need to discard outright any population which is capable of having share politics because every population is capable of having shit politics. You know, I have I have had bad politics. Um, you all have had bad politics, and in five years, we'll probably think back of something that we think now, about all, um I don't think that means that from the outset, any kind of revolutionary movement is doomed. I really hope not. Um, because otherwise [01:04:30] there is no possibility for revolution. And I like to think that there is Yeah, that's that's completely something that I'm really I'm always mindful about and really aware of when I clock into work, um, and the community that I'm I'm I'm serving. You know that I'm not perpetuating and and you touched on it before On the concept of that. A lot of Maori people don't understand this concept or or the fact that, you know, acknowledge that there [01:05:00] are for layman terms queer people and and Maori them, you know. But you know, But it's not for me to be like Did you know? You know, because that that to me, I'm just like, you know, for someone like me who's also been colonised in the sense that I was ripped out from my my, you know, birth, a place of birth and, you know, um, having to live in, um, you know, a a colonised [01:05:30] land and having everything pretty much taken away from me and having to learn my own language from people and pay money at the University of fricking Auckland by these American white people of my own language. And my own culture has just been something that's truly like it's It's it's you know, it's I wouldn't want that done upon somebody else because I wouldn't want that to be done to me. But you know, it's [01:06:00] actually building, having and consenting for myself. Um, to be OK to have that Brown voice to be OK to have that. You know, like, if I need to put someone in line who in and my friends that I don't want to be doing any more emotional labour with my pakeha people, you know, I don't wanna have to feel like, 00, sorry. Did I hurt your feeling? Because I really didn't like the way that you kind of get over, You know, my whole aspects [01:06:30] of of me and my, you know, like everything in that in in that way, you know? So for me, I'm just like, um yeah, that that's that that negotiation with, um I don't wanna have to keep rehashing the same sort of not just the aspect of trans identity, but as a person of colour identity that I have to do one on one every single day with with the people that are close to me, that I want to just be able to move on, and even [01:07:00] with my activism that I can move on with it without having to rehash and rehash and all this kind of stuff over and over again and having to always feel like Oh, sorry. Did I hurt your feelings. You know, in that way, when I'm just trying to be me, you know, um and I think with activism as well, Like like what you were saying, Simone, Um, that How do we negotiate? Um, this kind of aspects, Um, and I think, you know, for me, I just My time is [01:07:30] valuable. What I do is valuable. And if people can't, if people can't get that in that way and and in my everyday activism, then I just move on. You know, there's no point keep going back to hammer something that they're not there yet. And that's OK, you know, And everything is a process. My whole journey is a process, and their journey is a process as well. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you. Um, I think that we'll finish it there with that. Excellent. Those [01:08:00] excellent points from both of you. Um, and I just want to say thank you to all of you for your generosity and your knowledge. And I know that standing up or not necessarily standing, but being up the front and sharing some of this stuff can be really hard. And, um, particularly the fact that it's going to get recorded and go online is can be a scary and vulnerable thing to do. So I really appreciate that and thank [01:08:30] you to the audience for your lovely questions and your engagement and wanted to say thank you very much and let the audience give you a round of applause and thank you, Sam, and yeah, thank you.
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