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So I was, um, was born in grey. Um, I. I grew up in a house. Well, my first few years were in a house in Elgin Street in Grey and then moved to Nelson for a couple of years and, um, then moved back up to Auckland when I was about five. Went to school in Devenport. And then, um, so Devenport Primary Intermediate and then West Lake Boys High school. Um, I was brought up by, um, lesbian parents, my mom's, um, a lesbian and Vicky and Trish My Well, my two moms really, um, [00:00:30] brought me up. And so, um, I've sort of had had that in my upbringing from from the very start. And, um, I have a younger brother. We're both, um, part of a, uh, a four person family with two moms. And, um, yeah, that was kind of that's come where I where I where I come from, I've heard other people say, um, in particular, lesbian parents talking about their Children, that actually the Children actually had to deal with quite a lot of kind of bullying at school because [00:01:00] of the fact of their parents being lesbian. I mean, did that affect you like, uh, it was not overt. Um, but there were times when I had to deal with it, and it was kind of maybe something that I didn't necessarily tell people unless they were good friends. Um, and some people who knew said would say things about it sometimes, or, um, I suppose there was an element of that. But [00:01:30] II, I wouldn't say it ever was particularly overt bullying. Um, it never became a really big issue, but there it was, kind of always there. Can you describe yourself as a child? Um, precocious, Um, very, um, teacher's pet. Um, creative kind of, um, like to dress up, like to, um, collect things, write [00:02:00] lists of things, um, draw paint, um, write poems, um, was very active and very happy by myself. Um, I suppose I didn't become a very social person until, um, I was a teenager. I didn't. I mean, I'm still a kind of solitary person sometimes, but, um, I think as a young kid, I was I you know, there was some I wasn't the most social [00:02:30] person at primary school. I had a bit of bullying, and, um, you know, I was I was the brainy kid. I had curly hair. I had a runny nose sometimes. So I was kind of like, you know, I got picked on a bit sometimes. And, um, yeah, I think I I enjoyed my own company a lot as a as a child. But I also, um yeah, I think I grew to be more sociable later on. So that kind of bullying What? How How did that affect you? Um, [00:03:00] I'm not sure. Um, I guess it took me a while to kind of, um trust people as friends. Um, I guess, um, I was probably sometimes suspicious of why people would want to be my friend. And sometimes people just wanted to copy my homework. Or, um, you know, things like that. And you were saying from an early [00:03:30] age that you were into creative activities. Where where do you think that kind of creativity comes from? Um, I've always just liked making things. I, um probably one of the first creative things that I learned to do was to fold paper to make origami. Um, I. I went to an after school care programme and was taught how to make paper cranes and various other things. And I started, um, going to the library and getting origami books out of the library and teaching myself how to make [00:04:00] various things and and, you know, I still do origami. Now, it's one of the the most, um, fun things to do. It's not really actually very creative because you're just following a set of instructions, but I think the the act of making things really stayed with me. And, um so that was when I was about five. And then, at the same time, I was learning the recorder and then the violin and later, other instruments and and, um yeah, I, I guess I Yeah, I just like to create things [00:04:30] and express myself in ways maybe other than just talking to people. Yeah. So tell me how you came to composition. Uh, because obviously it's one thing playing an instrument, but actually, Yeah, well, I think, um, I think I came to composition sort of gradually. Um, I probably the first thing I composed was at at primary school. I had a, um a teacher Chris Parks at Devonport [00:05:00] Primary School who, um, ran the school orchestra, and we did a sort of group collaborative composition project as part of the, um, 100 and 25th year celebration of Devonport primary school. So we all get to compose little chunks of of material. Somehow I don't know how we did it. We must have improvised together and, um, and written down, you know, a few bars of music each. And then somehow, Chris, you know, formed this thing into into one, homogenous ho, and probably [00:05:30] not homogeneous but, um, into a whole thing. So that was probably my first experience of composition. And then at high school, um, probably got into a little bit more, um, started writing pieces for specific instruments and things and then, um, went to university at high school, Did a whole lot of things probably could have done anything university decided that I would do English and music because I wanted to be. I wanted to write, and I also wanted to write music. Um, and that was when I really got [00:06:00] into to music properly. I think when I started hearing this, um, hearing contemporary music properly, I, I guess I was familiar with, um a little bit of the the standard stuff um, but I hadn't really come across sort of live performance of what you might call edgy or contemporary music. Um, and I was really excited by that. Um, so I think that maybe the first couple of years of of university was really [00:06:30] formative in terms of I actually want to create something that's challenging and, um, slightly, um, different and edgy and maybe pushing a few boundaries. Yeah. You mentioned hearing music properly. Can you talk to me about what I mean, what does that mean? Yeah, um, so I guess you start when you start studying music. You, um, are exposed to all sorts of different, um, [00:07:00] materials and music, and you're forced to, uh, uh, reassess how you actually listen to music. Um, up until university, I suppose I was listening to music as, um, entertainment or as background music or as something to sing along to, um But I think that that changed. And you you kind of have to, um, listen [00:07:30] more attentively when you're when you're wanting to create music, you know, you, you you focus on the details of how it's constructed. How how you you kind of are aware of how the music is interacting with you and how you're interacting with the music, how you're how you are as part of an audience or how you are as a performer. Um, and also, being a performer changes how you listen as well. So that's a different angle that I've also had running alongside the composition is, [00:08:00] uh well, I don't know running alongside your composition, but but your your sexuality, can you tell me a wee bit about that and how you kind of have come to your sexuality? Yeah, Um, I suppose I've probably known I was gay since I was 12 or 13. Um, at high school. Um, but it took me a long time to kind of come to terms with it, and, um, I suppose I didn't start to come out until I left school. Um, I [00:08:30] had quite a close group of friends at high school. Um, who? I didn't tell about my sexuality. And then after uni, you know, when I went to university, um, and whether I told some people or they found out about it, that I sort of drifted away from that group of people, and that was sort of an unfortunate thing, but, um, yeah, I suppose it's been a gradual. Um, well, I suppose it's a It's a continual process for most [00:09:00] people to come out. You know, you sort of have to come out to every person you meet, really? At some at some point in time. Um, so it's been Yeah, it's been a gradual process, but, um, I guess the process started, um, at the end of high school, when it just I think high school for me was quite, um, I. I enjoyed high high school immensely, but it was a really difficult place to be an out gay person at an all boys school that was quite traditional. And there was, [00:09:30] uh, lots of homophobia at Westlake. And, um, that yeah, I found that that quite difficult when people would just kind of were casual, you know, just casually, um, just casually homophobic and in all aspects of school life. So, yeah, it took me a while to kind of get through that and, um, [00:10:00] just kind of be comfortable to to talk about it at high school. Were you aware of other out students? Uh, there were maybe one or two. there was no one in my year who was who I knew that was out. Um, there were a couple of people who, um, weren't were not out, but who I knew were gay. Um, but not people I was close to. And what about things like, um, gay, straight [00:10:30] alliances and stuff in school? Was there anything like that? Uh, not at my school. It wasn't really, Um I mean, there was a school counsellor, and I didn't actually ever go to the school counsel, which is probably I probably should have. I should have probably taken advantage of that. But there was never, um it was never discussed as an issue at school, which I think looking back is really, um, shocking in a way, um, [00:11:00] I, I guess the headmaster was a Catholic, um, guy, you know, very staunch Catholic and wasn't a Catholic school, But he, um, kind of promoted the whole school ethos, and, um, I don't think that kind of factored into There was a lot of talk about sort of, um, manliness and and growing into a man. And, [00:11:30] you know, we we would always be addressed as young men, and, um, but there was never a discussion of sexuality. Yeah, and just to put in a wee bit of context. Um what what year are we kind of talking? So I was at high school from 2001 to 2005 and when people were were kind of casually, um, being homophobic, I mean, what did that entail? Give me some examples. Um, well, there was a lot of of teasing of people who might have seemed, [00:12:00] um, less butch and manly than than others. Um, people who didn't engage in sporting activities was, like was really big on rowing and cricket and rugby. I mean, I played sport, and I really enjoyed playing sport. Um, but there were people who who didn't enjoy that so much. And, um, you know Oh, you're a fag. You're You're a sissy. You're You're queer or whatever. Um, just because you, [00:12:30] you know, enjoy reading books, or you, um you don't want to take part in the rugby game at lunchtime or whatever reason. And there was also running alongside that There was this kind of laten ho eroticism that, you know, the boys would quite enjoy kind of making fun of each other, but like, touching each other. And you know that, that sort of thing? Um, it's quite I mean, it was quite a strange environment because you were never [00:13:00] well, I, I felt like I was never, um, allowed to kind of. It was It was like something that you were expected to do to kind of be be, um, kind of touch other boys and be kind of matey hoo with people without it being gay because it couldn't be gay. It was That was bad. Yeah. It's quite interesting how those two things can coexist quite happily, as long as you don't say it. Yeah, absolutely. [00:13:30] So how and when did you tell your parents? Um, not for a long time, actually. Um, I. I mean, I sort of knew that they would be OK with it, obviously, but, um, I Yeah, I had quite a hard time. Just sort of, um, for a while, I sort of thought, you know, it's nobody else's business. Why should I tell them? It's not important. [00:14:00] Um, you know, I. I suppose I told them, you know, when I was about 20 or 21 and that seems really late but, um yeah, And I wish I told them earlier, but, um, but I didn't. And I guess I I was probably a bit selfish about it that I think I I thought that it was only about me and that it didn't affect anyone else. Um, yeah. Why do you wish you had told them earlier? Oh, just [00:14:30] because they probably would have been they they definitely would have been very, very supportive through, you know, through high school and stuff. And I felt like as soon as I started coming out to people that it was just an enormous relief, and I I felt like I could be myself. I didn't. I mean, it didn't change how I was, but, um, there was this kind of dread all through high school. You know? I'm gonna have to tell people. What [00:15:00] if someone finds out? What if I tell someone? Um, you know, and I went out with girls in high school and sort of had this kept up this facade of being a straight boy. Um, and the first person I told that I was gay was my current girlfriend, and she was actually really supportive about it. and we went to the ball together and, you know, as friends. And that was really lovely. But, um, there was this [00:15:30] incredible dread all through high school that that I, um I was so glad to kind of get rid of, um, once I left. How did your parents react? Um, they were just like, Oh, we knew, you know, we we knew. And why didn't you tell us earlier? Basically. And they were supportive, and yeah, that's fine. So in terms of language, you use around sexuality and gender What? How? How would you identify yourself? What kind of language would you use? I would say [00:16:00] I was gay. Yeah, that would be I don't think I would use any other identification. Really? I mean, I suppose you could, but I'm happy with gay. How do you think sexuality kind of impacts on the rest of your personality? I mean, is it is is sexuality a large part of who you are? Or is it something that's just just there in the corner somewhere? Um, I mean, I think I think it does. It is a big part of who I am. Um, [00:16:30] I'm not sure how exactly that manifests itself. But I think it's it's It's a thing that that is, anyone who's gay or, um queer in some kind of way thinks a lot about it. It's part of your psyche, part of your approach to life. I think there's no way of of kind of putting it in a compartment and saying, It's over there. It's just a label [00:17:00] I'm not, um I think, yeah, it it's It's an important part of of who I am and and creatively as well. I think it's definitely informed my practise as a composer, as a poet, and, um, I'm not sure. Yeah, like, as I say, I'm not sure how it how it manifests itself specifically, but it's it's part of. It's part of my heart, part of my brain, [00:17:30] part of my personality, I'm wondering. I mean, can you, I suppose, kind of refine it a bit more and say how it how it influences your creative work? Um, yeah, um, so I guess I in my creativity in my in my music specifically, I'm often dealing with, um emotions dealing with, um, ideas of intimacy [00:18:00] and distance or strangeness and familiarity. Things like that. Um uh, things that are familiar things. That other, um, the relationship between those, um, car and yeah, it it might not necessarily be a specific conceptual part, but I think it's always there. And, uh, my work is always informed by my emotions, [00:18:30] and my emotions are informed by my sexuality. And, um, and sometimes it does take a specific, um, conceptual form I. I wrote a piece, um, last year, as part of my residency with the National Youth Orchestra, um called Feel, which was a sort of piece about coming out as gay. And, um, that was really the most, um, overt, um, [00:19:00] creative statement that I've made about about my sexuality. I think you can see it, and you can hear it in in other works, too. But this was specifically a coming out piece. The programme note says, you know, says as much and the the trajectory of the piece moves from a kind of closed, um claustrophobic sort of dreadful, um, introversion to something quite open [00:19:30] and, um, hopeful. What was the response to that piece? Um, yeah, that's interesting, actually, because no one, I think one person, one person talked to me about it in terms of its, uh, conceptual content. And no one else, um, mentioned the fact that it was Yeah, it's often the case, actually, with with music [00:20:00] with concert music, people don't discuss it. They just say, Oh, that was a nice piece. Well done, or oh, I like that bit. Or and even even, you know, people that, um, whose opinions you respect and who are themselves composers even, um, often feel like they can't tell you what they really think about something. Um, and and in this particular case, I don't think [00:20:30] there was Well, not that that got back to me. Anyway. There was necessarily an engagement with the the subject matter of the piece, which I I was I was a bit disappointed about, But, um, it was in Christchurch. So, um, and may be performed in Auckland and might have a completely different, um, audience reaction. I mean, they seem to they seem to like the piece, but, um, yeah, it's hard to know. It's hard to know what the response was. Really. [00:21:00] What about the response from the youth orchestra? Um, they really enjoyed playing it, but again, I provided a programme note with their music and, um, you know, sort of two pages of this is what the piece is about. This is the background to it. There was a poem that went along with it. John Ashbury poem. Who's a, um, American gay poet. Still alive? Probably the most important, um, living American living poet. Probably. Um, [00:21:30] and no one from the orchestra actually talked to me about the piece from a From the perspective of this is the gay piece. This is Alex talking about or trying to articulate, trying to share his emotions about being gay. Um, and as much as I enjoyed the process of working with the youth orchestra and making the music happen and [00:22:00] refining it technically and all that I was left a bit, um, said that there there wasn't or people that didn't at least feel comfortable talking to me about that element of it. Um, and the one person who who did talk to me about it was actually from the youth choir. Um, I wrote the piece for the orchestra, and in the same programme of music, the youth [00:22:30] orchestra was performing with the New Zealand Youth Choir. And so this, um, this man who, um, talked to me about it. He was not performing in the work, and he didn't. Actually, um, he didn't I think he did. Maybe he did hear the work and performance, but, um, yeah, he he was the only person he was. He was, um, a bisexual guy. And he was the only person who brought it up that, you know, you know, good on you for writing this piece. [00:23:00] Um, it's really interesting. Blah, blah, blah, I. I mean, I can't remember exactly what his response was, but I do remember that I was I was struck that there was one person who who talked to me about it. When you look in the wider context of New Zealand, I mean, are there many gay lesbian transgender pieces that have been written for, say, for orchestra or or, um, there are quite [00:23:30] a number of queer composers in New Zealand, but I think for many of them, it's not an overt subject in their music. Um, there are some pieces that have, um, overtly gay content or, um, Jack Body has written a number of pieces that, um um his love. So to Michelangelo and and other other [00:24:00] pieces. Um, and Lockwood is also, um, a composer who has dealt with that specifically, Um, but I think many composers in New Zealand have preferred not to deal with it overtly in their music. Not sure why they are I. I can I can understand why that is. And I think it's, um [00:24:30] often composers don't want to attach a specific meaning to a work. They don't want to tell the audience what to feel or what to think. They want their music to speak for itself and for the audience, then to interact with it and derive their own meaning. But for me, this was an important piece to write, and people could. Still, I felt like I'd [00:25:00] left enough room for people to interact with with it that I could still, um, deal with these things and talk about dealing with these things and say so in the programme. Not so when you're kind of referencing Jack and, um an I mean, how do you know about these people? Kind of being gay. I mean, is it taught at university in terms of these, uh, gay composers or how how do you How do you find out about? [00:25:30] I don't think it was taught at university, particularly there weren't courses about sexual, um, issues in music like there was, say, in English or in history. You know, you could do a paper of sexual histories, or you could study. Um, you know, gay writers in the English department. I don't think that was ever an option in music. I think, um, that's a real shame. Um, but I and as part of my honours, um, did [00:26:00] a lot of research on on New Zealand composers. I did a a topic, um, New Zealand music with Eve, who was my Eve de Castro Robinson, who was my supervisor? Um, and one of my special topics was, um, the music of an Lockwood. Um, and so I researched her music. Um, another, another essay that I wrote. This part of that paper was on protest music, and an aspect of that was the, um, homosexual law reform movement. And [00:26:30] I was interested in, um, any kind of, um, both, um, gay protest music, but also feminist stuff. And, um, anything related to that? So, I, I guess I did my own research. Um, Also word of mouth um, it's quite a small community, the composing community. And every year there's the Nelson Composer workshop. Um, you you you learn things from older composers. People [00:27:00] share stories. Um, some people are quite open about their sexuality, and you find out about other people by word of mouth. Um and, yeah, I I I think it would be nice for it to be for it to be taught, but there are always, um, issues around whether people want to be known as a gay composer, whether they are out, but also whether they want their music [00:27:30] to be, um, heard as gay. Hm. And in your situation, I mean, do you want to be known as a gay composer? I'm happy to be known as a gay composer. Yeah, um, I think it's it's a big part of my music, but all other things are also a big part of my music. I think it informs my music just like my personality informs my music. And, um, my taste and other things. Um, [00:28:00] yeah, I have no problem with with being being labelled as a gay composer. Do you think that label in some way would would box you in to you know that they say, Oh, well, you know, Alex does this type of thing, and it's specifically, like for a gay audience. Or I don't think you could I don't think my music III. I don't think you could box it in. I don't see how how it would work. Um, I mean, the most [00:28:30] obvious example of um, uh, an out gay composer in New Zealand is Gareth Far in terms of, um, having, um a a very kind of flamboyant drag persona, Little of the choir, um, and being very open about his sexuality. But I don't think he's seen as Gareth, the gay composer. I think, um, his music is respected on its own merits, which I would hope that mine is [00:29:00] too. In your research. Did you come up with any surprises? I mean, with the people in your research that you thought Oh, gosh, I I had no idea. And and then you saw their music in a different way. Um, yeah, that's interesting. There were There were people that I hadn't, um, come across necessarily as composers who had written a little bit of music specifically about gay issues. People like William Dart, who wrote [00:29:30] a couple of musicals. Um, I mean, Williams, well known as a gay person. Um, but not as well known as a composer. And, um, I. I, um, found out about his, um, his musicals give me a kiss and, um, songs to the judges. I think the other one is Give me a kiss is a is a specifically, um, gay musical and other people, um, as well, but, um, William is a good example of that. Um, there are also, um, gay [00:30:00] composers who who aren't, um, necessarily out and who, perhaps don't, you know, don't want their music to be, um, to be labelled that way or for them personally to be labelled that way. Earlier this year, you were part of a concert as part of the Auckland Pride Festival. Can you tell me about that? Um, so Samuel Holloway, um, a good friend of mine and, uh, an Auckland composer was asked to create a create, but [00:30:30] also curate, um, a concert of, um, of queer composers. Um, so he brought together music by, um, Jack Bo and Lockwood. Gareth Farr, John Elms, David Hamilton, Claire Cohen. Um, a number of other composers, which I probably won't be able to remember everyone. And, um, at the music Theatre at the Auckland University. And it It's probably the first time that I'm aware of, certainly, in recent years [00:31:00] that, um, a programme of gay music has been put together. Um, perhaps in the eighties there was there are a few things like that, but, um, yeah, it was It was quite an exciting event, Really. I was I was really excited to be part of it. The the the title of that concert was after bu, um, referencing Douglas bu. Tell me about that. Because Douglas, I mean, uh, we [00:31:30] think he might have had, you know, kind of gay relationships, but he also had, um, relationships with people like Rita Angus. Yeah. Um, I I think it's generally accepted that Douglas Auburn was gay. Um, whether he labelled himself that way, um, he didn't you know, he he wasn't out as a gay man, but, um, I think it was a provocative and [00:32:00] I think it was an appropriate way to title the concert. So you are comfortable with, um, somebody That's not necessarily out being used as as the kind of title of a gay concert. Um, I think there's been so much discussion of Lilburn, and he's so pivotal to, um to the whole genesis of New Zealand [00:32:30] music that, um, it would be foolish to ignore that aspect of his music and his life. Um, and to to say that we should ignore his sexuality and only look at him as a normative, uh, composer is, I think [00:33:00] it's It's the wrong approach. I think it it's good to discuss little as as a gay man, I think Samuel commented, uh, in a news article about how, even in Philip Norman's biography of Douglas that there is very little about the kind of homosexual aspect of of him. Do you have any kind of thoughts on that? Um, I think it's something that people are quite reluctant to discuss. I think there's been some conflict between New [00:33:30] Zealand composers in the past about it. Um, it's also difficult because, um, he's not alive anymore, and, um, it's difficult to know how he would feel about about it. But the discussion is already out there. And, um, to push it away and not include it is, um I think a bit childish when you [00:34:00] listen to Lil Worns music. I mean, can you hear a gayness in that or or some kind of reference to his homosexuality? Um, I think it's like I said earlier. It's difficult to know how um, a particular person's sexuality will manifest itself in a work of art. But having said that, I, I think, um, I think you can hear, Um, certainly in, um, some of his chamber music. There's a sort of, [00:34:30] um, intimacy and, um, sort of restlessness. Um, I don't I mean, I don't It's difficult to sort of psychoanalyse his music. Um, but I think generally he was more concerned with, um constructing a sort of New Zealand identity than perhaps dealing with his own, um, emotions. So often in his big orchestral pieces, you get, um, a very, [00:35:00] um, outside a very constructed, um facade of music that I think sometimes, um, you know, subsumes his his own kind of, um, emotions. But at the same time, there's also a sort of, um, restraint and a sense of repression in his music that I think maybe correlates to his struggle with his sexuality. Um, [00:35:30] I think you you you. You listen to any of his symphonies. Um, his three symphonies. And there's kind of this reluctance and reticence that he's not quite He's not quite able to express express himself. Frankly, um, which I mean, yeah, as I say, it's difficult to to translate music to, um, into words or to psychoanalyse [00:36:00] it. But, um, yeah, I think there are elements of it there. Another way of looking at it is as a gay man listening to his music. Does it alter how you perceive his music knowing that he was he was gay? Um, I found myself listening for for these elements, like or or finding these elements in in his music. This sort of, um uh, repressed or closeted, [00:36:30] um, element, which maybe I wasn't so aware of before before I knew that he was a gay composer. Um, I mean, I've always enjoyed Li burns music, but, um, it does have this element of not quite fulfilling its, um potential. Yeah, So you were quite happy to be part of this this queer concert? Were you aware of other out [00:37:00] composers that actually didn't want to be a part of this because it was going to be a specifically gay event. Um, Samuel did tell me about, um, one person in particular who didn't want to be a part of the concert, and I There may be others as well. Um, I'm not sure if, um, even if everyone, uh, it may may whether it was possible to include everyone who perhaps might have wanted to be included. [00:37:30] Um, but I Yeah, I do know that there was at least one person who who was asked and and didn't didn't want to be included as a composer. Can you actually withhold the right of performance? So, like, if somebody says I'm setting up a gay lesbian concert and I want to use your work, do you have any say as to actually, whether that work gets performed or not? Um, in theory, no, but in practise, the [00:38:00] the community is so small, and the everyone knows each other the relationships. Um, it's difficult to do that without burning a bridge. Or, um, you would have a difficult time, I think trying to out someone, um, in a concert like that, not, you know, overtly, but using the music without their permission. I think that would be quite difficult. Yeah. Why [00:38:30] do you think it's important to have, um, a concert that's specifically labelled as this is A You know, these are gay composers. Um, well, I just I think it's interesting to to kind of hear the different approaches that well, firstly, from a perspective of a gay audience, which is what this was aimed at primarily as part of the Pride Festival to to be exposed to the history of, um, and the breadth of of New Zealand music from from gay composers. I think that's really important. [00:39:00] But also just from a general, um, music, um, perspective. I think I think it's it's important just to, um, to have another way of of listening to the music, um, to find, you know, we were always listening for different, um, things that we can, um, engage with and things that we can tune into in in pieces of music. And if you've got, um, [00:39:30] this, you know, sexuality thread is one is one thing that you can, um, that an audience member can perhaps, um, relate to or, um, it can provoke some kind of response. Tell me about the audience that attended the concert. I mean, what what kind of audience was it? Um, it was really It was really nice to see a a Really, Um the audience was AAA mixture of, um the typical [00:40:00] concert going music lover. Um, and a lot of the gay community as well. Um, who whom you wouldn't normally perhaps see at a classical music event, which not classical music. A contemporary classical music event. Um, so, yeah, there was a really nice blend there. And, um, I think the vibe of the concert was was wonderful. Everyone, um really, [00:40:30] um all the performers and composers and audience, I think really embodied the whole spirit of the concert, which was quite heartfelt and quite, um, quite lovely. Yeah, it's interesting because a couple of weeks after the festival, we had Jack Bo's songss of dancers and Desire come and Repe, And that was part of the Auckland Arts Festival. And I went along to that and it was quite a different audience. It was quite a It was like a quite a standard, [00:41:00] a PAPO audience. Can you compare the two audiences? Because I, I found the car audience almost disconnected from you know what was going on. And I think that is perhaps also related to the size of the venue. Um, the music Theatre is quite an intimate space, and it was pretty much full well, two thirds of it of one. The other third is not normally used, but, um, there was a connection between the the performance [00:41:30] and audience in that concert, which is quite, I think it's quite a rare thing, actually. Um, there, uh, it's more common than chamber music. But then the the the Jack Body concert Big venue, town hall, Um, you know, audience quite a long way away from from the performers and also the audience. Perhaps not knowing what to expect. Not being familiar with Jack Bo's work [00:42:00] not being, um, necessarily, um, comfortable, uh, throughout all of the concert. I mean, I think there were moments in that concert which made everyone uncomfortable at the various points. And I think that was part of the point of the concert was to be provocative and, um, engaging and challenging. Um, but I, I think Yeah, that the the standard orchestral concert goer is not necessarily, um, [00:42:30] going to experience or intend to experience music the same way that someone who goes to a contemporary classical gay concert is wanting to, you know, they they they're wanting to have different experiences. Really. The the music lover, the the standard repertory orchestral music lover goes perhaps as, um um, a lovely night out to enjoy the music washing over them. And, um, it's [00:43:00] perhaps slightly nostalgic. Perhaps there's, um, you know, perhaps mainly, it's it's entertainment. But there's with Jack's piece and also with, um after Lilburn, there's there's another element which is, um, art as something challenging, provocative, um, something not comfortable. And the subject matter also is something that, for a mainstream audience is not hardly ever talked about [00:43:30] except in context like that. Um, so is, um, by definition, uncomfortable. Do you feel that things like, say, that coming out piece that you did for the youth orchestra that would be sidelined into oh, well, that's a gay piece. So it's really only for a gay audience. Would that ever get into a mainstream programme? I don't know, I hope so. It's only ever been performed once, um, it is being recorded later this year by the NZSO for their, um, [00:44:00] their collaborative, um, radio New Zealand sounds NZSO readings. Um, so I'll get a good recording out of that. I don't know whether it will be programmed again. It was written for a specific orchestra. Youth orchestra. Um, I would hope that it that it would be picked up. Um, I think I would hope that, um, it wouldn't be seen as, um I hope the gay content. [00:44:30] It's the the the music itself is just music. But, um, I hope that the fact that it's the subject matter is is a coming out piece. Wouldn't, um, preclude it from being programmed again. Yeah, but that depends on people's, um, prejudices. And, um and what else is in the programme? I mean, yeah, it's it's a matter of taste. You might also find that, actually, the reverse happens. And that because it is like a coming [00:45:00] out piece that actually is programmed, you know, over over many times. So, yeah. What did you take out of out of the after little concert? How how did you feel about it? Um, but as I said I was I was really happy to be involved, but also I felt really good about the the whole feeling of the concert. It was very collegial. And, um, all the composers who were there who had their music played were very, um, grateful [00:45:30] for the for the opportunity to to have, um, pieces of theirs played, which, perhaps are not normally programmed. Um, I one particular composer, um, I remember John Elmley coming down to to have a bow, and he was just so happy, you know, he was, um he hugged Mark Menzies. Who was the violinist? The violist, actually, Who who played, um, his solo piece. Um, which referenced li actually, um, John's piece. [00:46:00] And John was just so absolutely thrilled to, um to be involved in for his music to be played and and, um, the whole the whole context. The whole vibe of the concert was was very lovely. So after the concert, how was it kind of received in terms of kind of critical thought? Um, well, as well as the sort of, um, the general buzz of of the concert at at the time itself. I think there was [00:46:30] there was a feeling from some people that maybe the concert could have, um it could have been other things. Um, that perhaps it wasn't really apart from one or two pieces which were overtly gay works that it wasn't really a gay concert. Um, the programme consisted of works by gay composers, but I think they were probably one, maybe two, that were really certainly Jack's work. [00:47:00] Jack Bo's work, um was, you know, had, uh, was settings of of an overtly gay text. Um, but most of the other pieces didn't have any, um, reference to sexuality. Um, and so that that was one criticism that it it didn't kind of embody the whole, um the the the queer thing. And it it it could have. There are other pieces that could have been programmed that would [00:47:30] have been more political in that sense. Um, So Anna Lockwood has written a number of, um, pieces that are more concerned with, um, sexuality. Um, um, other other composers. I mean, I've written other pieces that would perhaps have been better suited to the gay theme, but there were also constraints in terms of performance and, um, just general programming issues that Samuel had to juggle. So, um yeah, there was another. Another [00:48:00] criticism that someone, uh said told me was that it was too serious. And it was all too, um, very academic and serious And, um, that not not enough fun, You know that? That you might think going to a gay concert that you like. Perhaps Jack's concert had moments of very high camp. We didn't get any of that we had, um, you know, one or two brief interludes that were slightly light. Um, Claire's piece was lovely and rhythmic and fun, but [00:48:30] there was no real camp, which you might expect in a gay context. And, um so those are two quite, um, contradictory criticisms. Really? Um, and I, I think from my perspective, the concert juggled, um, all of those things quite well, but, um, yeah, those are some of the criticisms. And it seems to me that those kind of criticisms point to the fact that that that there's a real hunger for people [00:49:00] wanting to hear maybe gay composers or gay themed works Or, you know, they wouldn't be criticising unless they felt passionate about wanting to see something. Yeah, I agree. I think there is, um, there's a lack of kind of discourse. And there's a lack of, um well, I I there are a few gay works and things, but, um, it's I think it was hard for Samuel to actually put a programme together, Um, in terms [00:49:30] of, um, fulfilling that, um, sort of political, um, element that some people felt was, was needed. Um, but yeah, it it's it's great that the concert was put on because that sort of started a discourse around, um, gay music. And that will lead, I hope to other concerts of gay music and other kind of, um, avenues of investigation. One of the things we haven't talked [00:50:00] about, um but is just kind of inherent in a lot of the stuff that you're doing is the the idea of visibility of actually, you know, putting yourself out there as a as a gay man as a gay composer. Tell me, why is it important to be visible? Um, I guess, to to encourage? Well, just from a personal perspective, it's it's part of it's part of who I am. It's something I'm proud [00:50:30] of. It's something that I, um I've said has you know, that I think relates to my music and is part of my creativity. Um, but also, um, I think it's important to be out just to encourage other people who are struggling with with those issues to be out as well. And, um, yeah, I mean, there are There are a lot of, um there are a lot of gay composers. Um, and it would [00:51:00] be, um I think it would be nice sometimes if if we talked a bit more about that aspect of our, um of our creativity.
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