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Saint Matthew's in the city and Auckland Community Church have been, um, together in the same building for the last probably 30 odd years. And we are the gay and lesbian, bisexual, transgender largest, uh, community church here in New Zealand. Um, there's usually about 40 or 50 people that come to our evening services, which is great. And we're just a very open and accepting community. And we have straight people that come along and people of different [00:00:30] faiths even. But yeah, when you say you kind of gay has been transgender, bisexual church, what does that mean? What does that mean? Um, it means that when Christ died on the cross, he died on the cross with his arms wide open, and he didn't exclude anyone. And for a very, very long time. And gays and lesbians, bisexual, transgender people have felt as a minority group, excluded from faith and and church services and [00:01:00] really been denied their spirituality. Um, so we're turning that on its head. We're in a unique church, which, um, sort of evangelises to say, you know, God loves everyone, and God loves gays and lesbians just as much as the the Straight Brothers and sisters. What does that mean? In practical terms, in terms of what the church does or doesn't do, what the church does and doesn't do Well, I guess, um when the Anglican, [00:01:30] uh, we're a non denominational church, so that's sort of quite important to make a a sort of statement about that. Firstly, um, whereas Saint Matthews in the city is an Anglican church at Auckland Community Church is non denominational. But it's interesting because we're still, you know, there are people that come to our services from all different walks of life. Some of them are Anglican. Some of them are Catholic. Some of them are Methodist. Um, and you know, when there is an occasion when [00:02:00] they're looking at Anglican ministers and whether they're going to be ordained, uh, gay and lesbian ministers, we're they're at the forefront. And we've been asked about these issues and saying, putting a unique voice across that, you know, it's OK for our ministers to be gay and lesbian, and actually, we need gay and lesbian ministers to to support our community. We're crying out for it. Um, you know, Jesus went out and he went out to He talks about leaving 99 to go and get [00:02:30] that one lamb and my point of view and and my spirit, where it's at Is that the gang lesbian community? Is that that 1%? And, um, those people that come from conservative Christian backgrounds that are denying that 1% aren't doing Jesus's work? How did the Auckland Community Church start Auckland Community Church started way back even before, um, the legislative changes started with, um, the sex reform [00:03:00] bill way back when and, um, Saint Matthew's realised that there was a need. Saint Matthews had always had a bit of a history with, um, helping the impoverished around the community, helping set up the Auckland City mission. But, um, they also realised that there was a need with a small group of gay and lesbian people wanting to to have a faith service. Uh, it wasn't an integrated service with their own, [00:03:30] but they ended up giving some space aside so that we could start our own little church, and it just grew and grew from there. How is the church? Or is the church aligned with other churches either nationally or internationally? All right, we're kind of at the forefront with people know about Auckland Community Church, maybe through Saint Matthew's in the city because of Saint Matthews, sort of, uh, widely known, um, billboards and controversy and stuff [00:04:00] like that. Um, we're also aligned in a sort of funny sort of way with the Metropolitan Community Church. And there is a metropolitan community church here in Auckland. Um, we would like to combine both churches. That's sort of something in the pipeline that I I'd like to see happen. But there's obviously some history that goes along with that, um, which has prevented it thus far. And, um yeah, Metropolitan community churches. If you [00:04:30] look online, you'll see them throughout the world. It's a huge movement, especially through, um, parts of America and very supportive network of gay friendly churches, Not not just for gays and lesbians. They're definitely, you know, for the straight community as well. But it's definitely a different philosophy and really welcoming everybody. The whole rainbow community, not just the black and white. You mentioned that, um, Saint Matthew has things like billboards and that that that [00:05:00] are kind of really pushing, um, pushing the boundaries in terms of messages, um, things like the, um the that Jesus should come out Billboard for Christmas and and and marriage equality. Does Auckland Community Church have any say in terms of what kind of billboards are going outside? Saint Matthew? No, not really. Uh, Saint Matthews have its own, um, people that organise the billboards and I. I know clay quite well. [00:05:30] He's going to be the minister at my civil union come march. So, I mean, I love clay to bits. Um, I'm sure his controversy and and some of the, um, publicity that's come out of the billboards has been really positive for Saint Matthews, but also very negative. Like, I'm sure, um, I hope he doesn't mind me sharing this, but he's received death threats and awful things because people can't can't just take the debate and just sort of see this as a point of, you know, creating um a dialogue. [00:06:00] And and I think I think the billboards have a place in in society. Um, as chairperson of Auckland Community Church, I'm I'm very proud to say, you know, we support, um, Saint Matthews with the work that they do, but at the same time, they are members of our Parish who one is liberal, uh, with their philosophies with their Christian philosophies and probably find it quite difficult to sort of, um, come to [00:06:30] terms with with how liberal some of these billboards are are and can be offended by them. Which is interesting because I always thought gays and lesbians would be the most liberal of Christians out there. But, you know, not everyone's the same. So So what are some of the responses been? Well, I, I think the the one that really got everyone's attention was probably Mary, um, and the billboard that says, uh, God's a hard act to follow follow [00:07:00] and and I thought that was humorous and I could have a good laugh about that. But I know that there are some members of our parish that found that, you know, quite offensive and and and I can see that I can, you know, it's it's sort of a personal thing, and and with art and sometimes with politics or, you know, whatever the agenda is, it can rub people up the wrong way. And, um, I'm sure probably some members of Saint Matthew's parish also found it difficult to to to to like that particular billboard, [00:07:30] but yeah, On the whole, I think, um, they're pretty positive. Probably just backtracking a little bit, I wanted to say, because Saint Matthews is an Anglican church and we're a non denominational church. Our ties with the rest of the community are quite broad, which makes us a very strong Christian community, because as our, um, hoists or presider that come to the church, they're from the Methodist. They're from the Anglican, the Catholic. [00:08:00] Um, we have Baptist ministers. We you name it. If there's a a Christian person with faith in their heart who's done some sort of semi seminary training, they're here, you know, once every couple of months, doing their little bit to support our our community, our unique community. How did you come to the church? Oh, when I was 19, I came up to Auckland as a young [00:08:30] um, not out man. And, um, I used to sit at the very back of the church, and, um, at the end of the church service, I used to run away before anyone spoke to me. I wasn't quite ready to come out, but, you know, it was just, um a bit of a learning curve for me, just sort of meeting other people who come from faith backgrounds and were already happy with their sexuality. I I having come from a very conservative background, I wasn't quite ready to embrace that aspect of myself. [00:09:00] And, um, yeah, I think it's all about finding that balance. And Auckland Community Church definitely helped me find that balance. And that's probably where my heart is. And that's why I've written the books Memoirs of a Undercover Angel, a trilogy, body, mind and soul because it is, at the end of the day, all about finding that balance in life. Hm. What do you get out of spirituality or religion? I think, [00:09:30] um, having a belief system, that there is something more than just yourself out there and and just a knowledge that at the end of the day, when things seem so crazy and you know, you just don't know where life is heading somehow all the bits you don't need to make sense of it. They're all going to come together and things are going to be right. I think one of the big messages over in America and stuff when they're talking to young teenagers who are struggling with, [00:10:00] um, sexual identity issues and and also, um, self esteem issues, you know. And as a young teenager, I struggled with those issues and thought about suicide and got pretty black in a in a dark place is that, you know, tomorrow is going to get better. Tomorrow is always better, and those are really powerful things to hold on to and with the faith, you know, you can really hold on to the light. You know, it may seem like a dark tunnel, but at the end of that tunnel, [00:10:30] there's a beautiful white light, and the closer you get to it, the brighter it gets and the happier you feel, the more love you have in your heart. And it does make a difference in your life. Do you still find that there are people that come and sit in the back of the church and then scurry away afterwards? Yeah, they they there are people like that, and it's so funny because it's like that was me 10 years ago, or maybe a little bit longer ago. Now, Um, yeah, [00:11:00] quite often those people that do come in what they want is just to connect because they were feeling like I did, you know, probably 15 or 19 years ago, sitting in their back, feeling so lonely and misunderstood, and as if no one had a clue what was going on inside of them. And I remember this elderly gentleman coming in one time because it's not always the young people that are struggling with [00:11:30] their sexuality issues. And he was sitting behind me, and I just realised at one point that this was kind of a big thing for him coming to ST Matthew's in the city, coming to Auckland Community Church. And I just reached out and I put my hand on his back and I said, It's OK, God loves you, it's OK And he said, But how can God love me? And he and I said to him, because he does. God's love is unconditional. [00:12:00] I'd like to think that that was a bit of a turning point in his life, because it, you know, he was almost sobbing there as just when you're struggling with your sexuality issues, whether you have a faith background or not, But mostly people that do come from a faith background. At some point they have to unlearn everything. And you're probably a person if you continue with your faith carrying a huge [00:12:30] amount of baggage around with you, which can lead to internalised homophobia. And it's a huge, huge issue, and it's not until you throw it off and say, Well, to hell with what everyone else thinks. I know what my relationship with God is like, and I know that it's real and that it's strong and that he does love me. And you stop listening to everyone else who might be preaching a different talk. And if you go to a conservative Christian church, you will know that there will be the pastors out there that are preaching [00:13:00] hate that are preaching lies. You know, not necessarily what Jesus was preaching. And that's when you got to say, Well, where is God in that? And, um, I've definitely found God here at Auckland Community Church, so But you can also find him in the quiet places and on top of a mountain and and tramping through the woods. And and those can be just as magical and special places, too. Those kind of moments, like with that older chap. [00:13:30] Um, do they change your, um, being as well? Yes, it does. I think when you are in a relationship and you're working hard and your 9 to 5 job is what it is and you're just making ends meet, it's so easy to become apathetic in life and to kind of forget about you know how difficult it is for the young people and even the older people that are struggling out there. Um, [00:14:00] and you end up not connecting with people. And yet you know your story. My story perhaps, can change people's lives and give them hope. And I think when people have hope in their life, their lives, they're not gonna make bad mistakes. They're gonna see the light at the end of the tunnel, and they're gonna want to follow it. So it does change you. It realises it makes you realise that through all the good and the bad that you know if you can take someone's hand and [00:14:30] just bring them up another couple of steps, you know, if we're all on the same journey and it's all up the mountain, you know if you can meet them at the lower part of the mountain. What is it? Base camp. And they just take them up another run, another, another few steps. And if they're happy there, then that's good, you know? And it doesn't matter if he's returned to base camp. You know, it's sort of all part of the journey. Has your faith ever been questioned? Well, have you ever questioned your own faith? Um, [00:15:00] it's probably a good question. I. I have a partner who's an atheist, so, you know, having been in a committed relationship for the last 14 years, he wasn't always an atheist, but he was, um, from a Catholic background. And I completely understand when people, you know from a gay lesbian background and a faith background just decide to completely throw off the the religious shackles. And, you know, I don't want to have anything to do with that. Um, I think it's a very brave decision, and [00:15:30] I don't belittle that decision at all. I think, um, you know, a lot of people can get on with their lives without necessarily faith, but they've got love in their lives, and I think that's the most important thing to me. Jesus was, was love. And, um, that's the message. So, you know, some people really do need faith in their lives, and they need Jesus in their lives because they're they're missing out on love. And some people maybe don't. So so did that make you question your own faith? [00:16:00] Um, I probably questioned my faith more when I was younger, but I I've just had so many experiences while growing up that just completely rocks in my world and and took me from, you know, a very shy teenager to to someone who was bold and and ready to embrace the world. And, you know, finally embrace my sexuality as well. So, um, I'm rather fortunate that I've [00:16:30] always felt a very close relationship with God and, um, yeah, happy to share that with people, but no, I probably never questioned my faith. Like like some people, I've definitely had times in my life where I haven't, um, been going to church regularly or, um, you know, been investing that time in in my spirituality. Um, and, you know, maybe those have been good times in my life too. Where I've been getting a balance and been focusing more on my, um sexuality [00:17:00] or my my mind And in many ways, yeah. Does the church have an outreach programme? We do. We, um we have an outreach programme to one of the prisons, and we go and visit them and we run a service. Uh, there, I think, once a fortnight, Um, and there are a few members of our congregation which are part of a circle of friends which help support inmates who may have been, [00:17:30] um, sexual abusers or, or something like that come into the community. And we're there to basically keep them, keep them on the straight and narrow, and hopefully give them, you know, a framework and a support network. A friendship to sort of be guided. Yeah. Um, an outreach programme. We're always interested in connecting with our community. Um, both the gay and lesbian community, but also, uh, the community at a large. We want to, you know, be a presence, especially [00:18:00] with the the gay amendment Bill coming up, um, to sort of say not all Christian churches are against gay marriage, and we're, you know, the board at Auckland Community Church unanimously support gay marriage. So, yeah, we were very passionate and about that I am especially march the 24th. I'm getting married. I don't care what they say. And today, of course, was the big day out. And you guys were there. Yeah, Yeah, it was great. It was a fantastic [00:18:30] day. It was so hot. But, um, yeah, we had a great turnout. Um, and lots of Auckland Community Church had baked biscuits, and so we were handing out biscuits and I'd made chocolate, um, fruit, spice biscuits, I. I started with a basic recipe, but I decided no, I want everything in there. So in my way, there were rainbow biscuits. The organ has just recently been replaced, and it is a beautiful instrument. [00:19:00] Um, we do the the preparers for each Auckland community church service have a different take, depending on their their denominational background. Sometimes we'll have a very, um, Catholic sounding or Anglican sounding church service. If I'm running the service, maybe you'll get a little bit more happy, Clay, and we'll get some Hill song going and we'll be shut to the Lord and all of that. And, um, you know, maybe I bring in a younger vibe into the church, which [00:19:30] is hopefully refreshing I hope I don't turn. Turn some people away. But, yeah, we definitely have a variety. And I think that's important about Auckland Community Church. You know, it's, um it's not the same flavour every every week. Talk to me about the, um, the kind of demographic of Of of the congregation who comes who comes. Um oh, we have a a wide ranging demographic. We've quite often got young people that will come in and and just sort of check out the church for three or four weeks. [00:20:00] And sometimes I think maybe they've been going to church. And they've just had a pastor who's done a anti gay lesbian speech, and they've turned off that. And then they turn up at our church feeling all sort of beaten up by the whole experience. But they end up going back to their their original churches, and it's just nice to for them to be supported by our church just in the interim and realise that they don't have to take to heart what what the minister might be telling them as the gospel because, um, he's not necessarily preaching [00:20:30] God's gospel, which is love. So, um, our demographic Yep, We've got some young people. We've got some old people and we've got some middle aged people and and the more the merrier we want. We want as wide a range of demographic as we can get it.
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