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We collect a number of things, but primarily our collection is previous government records, um, and anything produced by a government agency or things that have been submitted in relation to those documents to Parliament. Uh, we collect these things as a way to keep track of what government has been doing holding them accountable, but also keeping our own history, making sure that we have evidence of what has happened in New Zealand and connecting [00:00:30] the people of New Zealand to their history and their So is it just paper documentation, or do you have have other other media as well? We have a a whole host of media. We have paper and photographs and, uh, random PV C, uh, binders full of eclectic material. But we also have photo negatives. We have an an object store down in the stacks, which has, uh, related media to the paper [00:01:00] documentation. Our primary source of material is paper, but we also have an A V collection. So that means we have, uh, video tapes and cassettes. And we even have old film reels which are digitally preserved by our A V technicians. So how much time has to pass before something from the government, um, ends up at Archives New Zealand. Um, I believe it's 25 years roughly after the creation of the object, but [00:01:30] it really does depend on when agencies are ready to clear their backlog and relate it back to us. Um, and items can be as young as the 19 eighties as these documents. Over here, I've seen documents from the two thousands. Um, if they're of national importance and have already passed through, uh, the, uh, parliamentary procedures such as the civil union bill. That was in 2005, But we already had it here. Um, so [00:02:00] it really depends on the release of those agencies. And so once items are in archives, New Zealand, Is that here forever? Now? Yes. Sometimes, Um, it depends on our collection policy. So our policy is to collect things of national importance, and we will take everything that an agency will present to us, and then it will go through a vetting procedure. And that's to make sure that what we are collecting is relevant to archives, um, and is relevant to preserving [00:02:30] the nation's memory. If we have decided that it doesn't meet our collection policy. We have a disposal authority, but that goes through a number of checks and balances and usually just means finding another home for those materials. And how do you work out what's nationally important? That is what our wonderfully trained archivists are for. They go through and work out the impact of those documents and whether it pertains to people across the nation. Uh, if it say is a document about, [00:03:00] say, Wellington, taxes for pipes or the waterway system in Wellington while we are the nation's capital, that's probably something that's more along the collection policy of Wellington City archives, as opposed to, uh, the Archives of Archives New Zealand. And so something like homosexual law reform that would have been considered a nationally significant event. Of course, it's something that impacted everyday kiwis across the country and had a huge [00:03:30] impact on the lifestyle of both non homosexuals and homosexuals. So what has archives New Zealand collected, Um, from that period from the from the eighties? Well, we have a wonderful selection of both submissions from the public, as well as items from, uh, the drafting of the bill itself. Uh, we have a book that was created in opposition to the homosexual law reform bill and was partnered with, uh, the anti [00:04:00] homosexual law reform petition. Um, it was used as I guess, a talking point. Or I guess we would now refer to it maybe as propaganda. Um, talking about how homosexuality is a deviant behaviour and is of moral concern. Um, primarily, though we do have the public submissions, the draughts of the document and, of course, the ascended bill itself. So just thinking about this, uh, this pamphlet here, this [00:04:30] is so the social effects of homosexuality in New Zealand. Why is it important to keep something like this, which you would now class as potentially propaganda? Well, it gives a good understanding of how public perception was going on at the time. It gives you an understanding of who were really the most vocal proponents and opposition in regarding to this bill. And it gives a really clear understanding of how far the Kiwi community were [00:05:00] willing to go to oppose something like the homosexual law reform bill. It talks to how the moral panic of the time really was focused on homosexuality as a deviance. It's something that is not OK? And how dare we even consider legalising it? Um, so yeah, so these interesting records, they're they're fascinating, especially, um, in just understanding the perspectives of some individuals, [00:05:30] for example, uh, in this propaganda piece, we have testimony of a former homosexual and it it starts the entire pamphlet out so that you can kind of ease in the concept that it's something that can be reformed. It's something that can be reversed or chosen against, and it then continues on using a variety of media such as some quotes from Arthur Conan Doyle as well as biblical excerpts and just [00:06:00] a number of pseudo logical attempts at saying that homosexuality should just be shoved under the rug. We should ignore it. They absolutely make a point of referring to the AIDS epidemic and referring to how that is something that is definitely purposefully being sent against the people of the gay community. Um, and how this is even more evidence that we shouldn't legalise it because [00:06:30] the gay cancer is coming around. And surely we know that this is proof that this shouldn't be legal and and this is produced by is it the coalition of Concerned Citizens it is. Indeed, they are somewhat famous for being in opposition of the homosexual law reform bill. Uh, I would probably say infamous. Uh, they started a mass petition around the country. Um, that had around 51 boxes, and they claimed up to [00:07:00] 800,000 signatures. But if you look on our, um, production sheet, you'll actually be able to see that we've only registered 581,278. On top of that, uh, it was noted when the bill was received originally that some of those signatures seemed to be in the same hand. So there was a lot of contention regarding these submissions. So this is prior to I'm guessing things like, um, optical character recognition. So has [00:07:30] somebody actually gone through and counted all those signatures? I'm assuming so, Yes. That would be the likely outcome if not by just looking at the average number of signatures per page and then telling a rough average. Um, but I believe it was the job of the person who received this box to just go through and process the public opinion. So do you hold the entire anti law reform petition. No, we do not. I was only able to find, [00:08:00] um, a small excerpt of it. We have a partial, uh, page of signatures. However, I believe as a result of the petition not being accepted by parliament, it was declined to be accepted in opposition of this bill. Um, I believe that meant that we did not need to collect the entirety of it in terms of the original petition. However, we do have a very [00:08:30] large collection. Um, of public submissions of people saying, Actually, could you remove my name from that petition, please? So it's found amongst the, um, submissions that were put forward by members of the public in either support or opposition of the homosexual law reform bill. And it is a full stack of items. That's just people wanting to get their name stricken from the bill as either they've had [00:09:00] a change of heart. Or they realised that the Coalition of Concerned Citizens had used less than friendly tactics to get their signature. So all of this correspondence has this all been documented and, um, recorded in a in a collection management system. We do have a collection management system. It's called archway. Um, it's accessible by the public and can be searched by members of the public. We do also have a staff version that goes into a little bit more detail to help us find records [00:09:30] on behalf of the public. Um, but this particular section itself is a sub item within this larger item. So what that means is, while you can't search for opposition to this petition, you can search for submissions on the petition and then rifle through, have a bit of a a search. One of the joys of archives is that no matter what you're doing, and no matter where you're looking, it's a bit of an adventure, and you never really know what you're gonna find. So would you be able [00:10:00] to, um, say, locate a family member who either signed or didn't sign the petition? No. So, unfortunately, it isn't listed as of yet to an individual level like that. Um, something like that can be done on major documents like the Treaty of Waitangi, the women's suffrage petition. Um, but special work has been done to make it that list searchable. Um, another reason why that wouldn't simply be possible is because we do not have [00:10:30] that full petition. It's not really possible for people to be able to tell if family members were signatories or not. Uh, I would say that the closest look that you can take for seeing if family members were in support or in opposition is to come and read through the submissions that we have. These submissions come with very personal and moving stories. A lot of the times these people are talking from very [00:11:00] sincere places of either hurt or fervent belief. And it's very moving to understand where these people are coming from. On either side of this story, you can see the genuine belief and fear in the hearts of people who think that homosexual law reform is going to destroy the country. And you can understand to some extent that it is simply misinformation or being misguided or holding [00:11:30] on to these religious, fervent beliefs that just makes people believe that no, homosexuality is not OK in opposition. You see thousands and thousands of people writing and saying Please, yes, I am homosexual. I would love to be able to talk about it. I would love to be able to be openly gay without fear of being arrested or walking down the street without fear of being attacked. And it's it's heartbreaking, but it's also [00:12:00] so affirming to read and know that we've made these changes. Now what is it like for you personally? When you go into a file like this and and start reading some of that correspondence? Well, it's tough, especially when you go through and you read the material that has, uh, some very interesting language. Um, obviously, all of this uses period typical homophobia, and it's it can be very [00:12:30] draining to read page after page of someone saying you shouldn't exist. You shouldn't be able to do what you're doing. There is a slight difference in that, uh, being assigned female at birth. I would never have been legislated against um, However, being a homosexual man was completely illegal and very, very dangerous to do, and it was very rough, and you can see that in some of these texts I have. [00:13:00] I've identified one in particular. That was just frustrating because it was a preacher who was avid, absolutely avid, that, you know, it's only going to be terrible for the public and an awful awful thing if homosexuals are allowed to exist in the illegal status. However, within the exact same sentence, he's saying that when he last saw two men embracing it, Dr gave [00:13:30] him such a rage. He almost was driven to murder. And I'm just like, sir, you're a priest. But also, it's It's such violent reactions to something that's as simple as love. I just I can't even begin to comprehend it. Um, and it makes you really grateful for the time period that you live in. I am so lucky to have been born into a New Zealand where this is allowed and we are allowed to [00:14:00] get married. And we're allowed to live our lives without that constant, persistent fear of being prosecuted just for existing. I guess one of the things that didn't make it during homosexual law reform in the mid eighties was the anti discrimination measures which happened in, uh, was it 93 94? Yeah. Yeah. So do you have material around the Human Rights Act as well? Um, yes, we absolutely do. We have, um, work [00:14:30] from a number of people, and we even have submissions by the Human Rights Commission. Um trying to get that second element of the homosexual law reform bill passed. Unfortunately, it was just not going to happen in the form that it was at. Um, I suspect because of opposition to what that would mean for members serving in the military. Um, because even though there were numerous attempts at providing a an exemption for military [00:15:00] service people, um, they were still not allowed to be queer in those spaces. Uh, this did change in 1993 with that adjustment to the Human Rights Commission, But up until that time period, there was still a large amount of communication regarding what about service people? How do we keep them discriminated against and in no other terms, uh, how do we protect the their heterosexual [00:15:30] counterparts? Um, so even though the Human Rights Commission themselves put forward an entire submission regarding how this form of discrimination is a violation of individual human rights, that second part of the bill was just never going to cross the line, um, in its current form at that time, because it was just massive opposition. So from my perspective, I see that what they did [00:16:00] was they pushed what they could, and they kept the mahi going into the future. So while they were never able to really do what they were planning to do with this first form of the bill, they made tiny progressions that nowadays, the true intent of this bill has been enacted. And that's been able to be done through that adjustment to the Human Rights Commission bill to, uh, civil unions and, of course, the same sex marriage bill of 2012. [00:16:30] And it's interesting seeing this Human Rights Commission submission because, um, that is quite a movement from where they were, say, in, like 1980 81 with, um, Pat Downey, who was pretty much against, um, homosexuality. Yeah, no, it's It's quite a change because you see, uh, previous attempts at law reform from the seventies and from 68 and it never really managed to get any ground, especially because people were trying for this True equality [00:17:00] and the social progression just wasn't willing to accept it just yet, even though you had individuals and groups like, uh, the Sisters for homophile equality, Um, they were out there doing the in 1968 I believe, trying to get people to recognise that homosexuals are people just like you and actively petitioning courts, actively petitioning government, trying to get this recognition of We are the same. [00:17:30] And it's it's fascinating to see how quickly that dynamic shifted from the sixties up until 93. 30 years is a very short period of time for the public to completely switch their opinion. And that seems to have been what happened in that even though the Human Rights Commission initially were hesitant or, you know, weren't willing or ready to make these changes by 93 it was a social movement that could not be stopped. We [00:18:00] had pride parades occurring around the country. We had much more support from non homosexuals and from government itself. Um, and of course, when you have this growing momentum, the government starts looking not great if they're not supporting what their community is. Well, speaking of support, were there, um, documents in the archives or collected by government that were in support of homosexual law reform? There were, in fact, we [00:18:30] even have a full, uh, petition in support of homosexual law reform. Uh, which was put forward right here. Um, I could not find further context beyond it being part of these submissions. But I would not be surprised if it was someone seeing that there was a petition in opposition being like Oh, I'm not with that. Let's do something better These are all directed to Fran Wilde, who put forward the homosexual law reform [00:19:00] bill. And it's pages upon pages of signatures that we have kept in their entirety and which will be digitised in future so that you can go through and look and see members of your family as signatories. They do have addresses and phone numbers. They've got people's, uh, snippets of people's lives attached to them. And what's interesting is [00:19:30] that the the pages that you're looking at are from the US and Canada. Yes, so it was support all across the world. We have, um, support from, uh, the San Francisco AIDS Clinic, uh, which spoke to how homosexual law reform would actually be an amazing opportunity to push public health care, uh, for support for people who are suffering from AIDS by making it harder for people to say I [00:20:00] am gay and I am suffering from this disease. The fear of being prosecuted for even saying The first part of that prevented people from seeking out help. And as we know now, AIDS was the silent killer of millions of people across the world, and it was even hard in places where it was legal to be gay to get that help. So by creating this additional hindrance and accessing the care that people needed, [00:20:30] we were adding to the death toll. But thankfully the bill was passed, and so it made it easier for people to access health care, get support groups and get that communal assistance that they really desperately needed. So, uh, that's something that was brought up by the San Francisco clinic. They pointed out that because people were even scared to. I mean, no one wanted to admit they had AIDS. It was [00:21:00] the buzzword that no one wanted to talk about but was on everyone's lips. But adding that fear of prosecution on top of the stigmatisation was just a whole other level. So when San Francisco heard that we were even considering this bill, they wrote to us and they said, Hold on, it's still illegal to be gay in New Zealand. We thought you were progressive. We thought you were ahead of the game. Um and then they said, Well, this [00:21:30] is only going to kill more New Zealanders. You need to do something and it's a very fascinating piece of material. So here, you can see, um, the New Zealand AIDS Foundation and the San Francisco AIDS Clinic worked together to try to provide assistance to people suffering from AIDS in New Zealand. And there's this fascinating part where they see, um a [00:22:00] necessary precondition, uh, to helping solve the AIDS crisis is the repeal of any law that inhibits such education, the education being of how to have safe sex between gay men because basic sex education for homosexuality. And, uh, anyone who was a sexual deviant in so-called terms was just non-existent. So by providing an opportunity and an avenue for [00:22:30] people to learn that hey, maybe we should be using condoms. Maybe we should be practising safe sex. Maybe we should be going to a venereal disease clinic. Um, these little basic things that we know now have such a huge impact on health. People were desperately screaming at us, trying to tell us, and because of the stigmatisation just wasn't possible. You mentioned earlier about Fran Wild. And, um, there was that, [00:23:00] uh, unfortunate incident a couple of years ago where a lot of her personal papers went up in an arson in. And I'm wondering, what is the requirement for members of parliament to either, um, donate their papers to archives New Zealand or or keep them? Um well, our collection, uh, authority and our obligation to protect papers, um, has put in place a system where we we very nicely ask agencies [00:23:30] after 25 years of creation of a document, could you pretty please hand them over to us so that we can make sure that they kept safe? Um, in the case of the wild papers, it was believed that they were in a secure, safe location. And it was an awful incident that was just pure bad luck, because it wasn't well known that all her papers were there and they were an unfortunate bystander in in this incident. Um, and it's [00:24:00] a story that is has been echoed in the creation of archives New Zealand. I mean, we exist as an institution as a result of a parliamentary house fire that almost destroyed a number of records that were being kept over at Parliament. And so in 1956 everything was moved over into this building to make sure that such thing could not happen again to these papers and books of national importance. So it's It's an unfortunate [00:24:30] lesson that we've had to learn a couple of times, and it's it's really unfortunate when we do lose such amazing pieces of our history. Um, and it's it's very, very sad that we we do not have access to these papers. Do you also get, uh, members of Parliament who actively push their papers into archives? New Zealand? Um, not that I'm personally aware of, uh, people tend to be quite happy to hoard their their own materials. [00:25:00] Um, but there is also the unfortunate thing of archives New Zealand. Our building is got a limited space. We do not have the ability to take absolutely everything. Um, simply because we do not have a number of shelves available. However, we are building a new building. So if any of those MP S would like to start shoving their papers towards us, we'd be more than happy. The more that we can collect, the more that we can preserve the better opportunity there is for transparency between [00:25:30] members of the public and what is going on in Parliament. It enables us to hold Parliament to account and make sure that nothing cheeky is going on. Um, and that allows for things such as the Royal Commission of Inquiry into historic abuse, uh, to come through and hold, uh, government agencies to account. It's something that enabled the expunging of, um, the criminal records of those who were prosecuted for being homosexual. These [00:26:00] things are made possible by the fact that we take very good care and are very careful with these old records. I'm just thinking of the amount of paper that must have been generated or probably still is generated. When, um, legislation goes through Parliament, you've got obviously the final finished act. But do you have other kind of government related papers as well? We have, I would say, maybe 10 boxes of draughts [00:26:30] of the homosexual law reform bill. We have boxes and boxes of submissions when a bill that has such public awareness as this one passes through. Yes, there is a seemingly endless supply of paper that is produced as a result. Um, but the same is true of of a number of bills. When a bill goes through Parliament and has a number of sittings or amendments, we keep track [00:27:00] of all of those changes so that we can see who added what at what time. For what reason? It adds to our ability to hold government to account, but also helps you just keep track of where these decisions come from and why these decisions have been made. And you're also the holder of the final act that the signed legislation yet? Yes, Yes, we are. We're very fortunate to hold the assented acts in our repository. [00:27:30] We have a nice little collection of the actual bills that are passed in Parliament. Um, and then secondarily passed on to the Governor General and the prime minister to be signed. We keep these so that we can have that nice, perfectly preserved, uh, copy. Uh, well, it's the original. Everyone else gets the copy. Um, but it's because it is such a huge piece of New Zealand history. Every bill that gets passed makes a huge change in a number of Kiwis lives, [00:28:00] and we want to be able to show people, you know, this is the document that made you legal to exist. Can I see the document? Yes, of course. Making me legal. It's, uh it's so exciting, because it it's something that you go through. And you're like, Oh, yes. No. Surely. Surely it's just legal to exist as a human, but nope. This bill is what made it legal for millions of kiwis to walk around, unafraid of who they are [00:28:30] and unashamed of who they are. And it made a huge impact on everyone's lives, obviously. And I mean not just the homosexuals. Uh, this did also impact, um, heterosexual sexual encounters in that sodomy was illegal for everyone. Uh, prior to 1986 regardless of if it was male, on male or male and female. Um, so this this really did change everything for everyone. [00:29:00] But the focus was, of course, on the impact on homosexual kiwis. Um, and you'll see here. There is that exemption, uh, being put forward for the armed forces. This is something that was argued over several times and the draught of the bill over there. I think I saw maybe five different iterations just for this section, and that is only one of a number of of, uh, copies of draughts. Um, so [00:29:30] that would inevitably be changed in 93. But it was something that really did hold up a lot of work on this bill. And so who who signed this bill? So we have the clerk of the House of Representatives and the attorney General. And, uh, the two big names that usually appear on the passing of these bills are the Prime Minister, who at this time was David Lange. And we also have the governor General, Sir Paul Reeves. And so Paul signed it on the 11th of July [00:30:00] 1986. So that's what, two days after it was actually passed in parliament. So they they got through it pretty fast. They really did, Uh, the bill itself was enacted in August of that year, so it really had a high turnover. Um, I think probably because of public pressure. You were saying earlier about, um, some digitization of of these items. Um, how are you digitising everything? How how is how is that working? So, uh, we have a schedule [00:30:30] to digitise, uh, the items that I've got on show for you today by July the ninth, the 35th anniversary, of course, of the home sexual law reform bill. Um, but we do have further plans to continue the work in digitising These, uh, the series of of documents. Things relating to the homosexual law reform bill, Uh, public actions that were being taken surrounding those dates. Um, and of course, kind of the impact into the nineties [00:31:00] of how were people adjusting with this new way of life? Essentially, um, these are all being done by our digitization team down on level one. And they are a very busy team. But they have made an exception for us in making sure that there is a steady flow of these materials being digitised. Uh, so every page is scanned, every image is collected, and they will be available online on Archway, our searchable portal.
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