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My name is Janet Kelly, and I've I work at the University of Waikato as a teacher educator on the Bachelor of Teaching Early Childhood Education Programme. And I came to the conference because I, um, have a research interest in sexuality and diversity because I've been, um, involved in some research projects around it. Because I identify as queer because it was an opportunity to come back to Wellington after being in Hamilton [00:00:30] for four years. And it was a chance to catch up with some mates who were doing research in the areas that I'm interested in as well, as well as to kind of be open to the wider um, conference in its themes. I'm Deborah Lee and I work at the Faculty of Education in Auckland. I'm in teacher education. Early childhood education is my specialty. I teach in early childhood social sciences education. I'm [00:01:00] really interested in sexuality issues and the challenge for early childhood teachers to deal with diversity that is the most complex, if you like diversity that teachers have to manage and the one they find the most challenging. I've done research into early childhood education and the experiences of gay mothers That's how they identified themselves. Generally, they like to call themselves gay and their [00:01:30] families. So the their experiences and their family's experiences and early childhood centres. And I've also done research into our faculty at the Faculty of Education at the University of Auckland, exploring issues of visibility and inclusion for people of diverse sexualities. And I came to this conference because this is our conference. Um, it had a strong education theme. It's family. Um, I have a sister in [00:02:00] in Wellington. I am really interested in networking with people in the area of education, but the broader, um, matters as well. One of the really interesting things I've found is that how we identify ourselves within this conference and the words that we use would you like to talk about that I In the presentation that we, Jeannette and I, and Lisa were involved in this [00:02:30] morning, I talked about how generally in my friendships I I consider myself a dyke. I describe myself as a dyke. I'm happy to call myself queer in in situations where that inclusivity is really important, I rarely use the word gay. The whole LGBT T thing is clumsy and one of the things that's come out of this conference is how unhappy a lot of people are with it. So we do need to [00:03:00] really think seriously about some other terms that are going to work for everybody. Um, but I'm really aware that for me, I the terminology I use is use changes in the situations that I'm in and with student teachers. For example, I tend to use the word gay because that's the word that they are less likely to be resistant to. Whereas if I use queer, that's something. I notice that resistance comes up and I don't have [00:03:30] the time to do the whole education thing. Also amongst my friends, a lot. My friends see queer as an academic term. They can only see it as academic. If they say it, it is, um, not an inclusive term. It's meant to be inclusive, but it doesn't feel inclusive to us. We're not queer. We wear dikes or we we're, um, lesbian. But we're certainly not queer. So we have so many different um, interpretations [00:04:00] and feelings around the terminology. I think it's a huge issue. I agree with some of the things that Deb said but I don't think we're gonna get a consensus. I think that that who we are and who we say we are, um is really complex, and it and it depends on our individual perspectives. And just like in our research, we worked out that, you know, we can say, um, a same sex headed family or a same sex couple. But when we talk about same sex families, [00:04:30] we need to, um, identify that that that in itself is kind of contestable. That that, um, you know, two lesbians might have an anonymous donor and go through the fertility associates to have a to have a child. But but, you know, queer families or rainbow families or whatever could also include Children from heterosexual unions, where one or of their parents is now involved in a homosexual relationship. Um, or, you [00:05:00] know, adoptions or any number of things. Where where a range of people choose to parent a child together, like one of the families I interviewed, where there was, you know, two lesbian mothers and a and a gay father. And, um, and his, you know. So So those kind of things show us that that you know, We're not into black and white. It's not either or it's a It's a whole kind of multiplicity, I suppose. And I suppose the term when I say that I'm queer identified [00:05:30] that there is an acknowledgement that I understand that there's a body of literature that's called Queer Theory and that and that it comes with a whole lot of, um, kind of or givens or agreed, you know, has a It's a discourse that has its own terminology associated with it, that people come to understand that it's that it's shared in that sense. But also, once upon a time, I would have identified as a lesbian, and then maybe I would have identified as bisexual [00:06:00] or being considered a lapsed lesbian or something like that. And whilst I'm in a long term relationship with a man, I still I see that my work, my stance, my my perspective on things is a queer perspective. And so, um, and you know, I didn't I didn't march the streets and fight for homosexual law reform bill, but law reform for people to say you can't play with us or you know you you don't fit our narrow little [00:06:30] box label anymore, so we don't want you to be here. And I think from my perspective, those those kind of broader terms allow for a whole lot of the diversity that's in our community. But I do like Deb. I've heard at this conference people saying, You know, when you call us you, for you it's a It's a term that relates to our sexuality or who we sleep with or something. But actually it's way beyond that. And so I suppose I [00:07:00] like from my perspective as an educator, I understand about social and cultural and historical context and the importance of them in that we each bring those with us and identity as part of that kind of equation, I suppose, and so I think we call ourselves. You know, it's like being an alcoholic. I'm an alcoholic. If I say I'm an alcoholic, it's not for somebody else to label me. So I suppose when I've heard people say, you know, as a lesbian, [00:07:30] I feel like lesbian is missing from this whole LG TB, um discussion or as an older lesbian, I feel left out. Then I see that each and every one of us could say that in this discussion or in this conference or in this I mean and I think that's why we're all here. And we may be pushing out our own Barrows or in our own kind of fields or areas of expertise, but that But they were all here under the same roof. [00:08:00] And the other day there was a whole lot of people coming to a really fancy dinner with Sue Jeffrey Archer in the same building. And I happened to be talking to an old, you know, dyke mate at the time. And she said, Once upon a time, we wouldn't have even been in the same building as those people. Once upon a time, we wouldn't have even had straits anywhere near us, let alone any of those other you know, multiplicity of people who are in this family. Now. Can you believe, like a conference 25 years after law reform? [00:08:30] I mean, 25 years is not a long time, is it? No, no. And we were out on the streets and marching for human rights in those days, and and I think that we've made great progress. But my fear is that a lot of straight. People think that everything's all right now and that that progress has been made. We've won that one. We can move on and see people who are activists now, as [00:09:00] you know, making a fuss when there's no need to make a fuss anymore because we've got the legislation. But you know, it doesn't go far enough and we're not there yet. Absolutely. Um, you know, I know. I know queer people. You know, lesbians who think that What's the fuss? Why are we still banging on about these things? Haven't we moved on from that stuff? But I think that our research shows that when you know, typically, lesbian headed [00:09:30] families take their Children to early childhood centres or kindergartens or play centres or schools that they are still having to negotiate their way through what is, you know, a heteros society and and where people still think that, you know, we don't want to know what you do in bed thinking that being lesbian is is somehow about that. And I think Deb said it before, Um, you know, in early childhood, [00:10:00] particularly in New Zealand, I think we've got a bicultural curriculum that is that is inclusive where social justice is really evident. But, um, but that we still, um you know, this is the one that sexuality or sexual diversity is the one area of diversity that we don't do very well. We're quite good about, um, ethnicity. And, you know, we we talk about gender and our language, and we look at things to do with people who are able bodied and not so able bodied [00:10:30] and all of those sorts of things. But sexual diversity is still a bit of a no no, because it's got because Children are seen as innocent and it's not appropriate to talk about those things with them. But, you know, one of the things that I was really struck by, uh, there was a workshop by an Australian woman called Kerry Robinson, a associate professor from Western Sydney. And she said, the fact that we are the fact that we are loath to talk about issues with Children because of this whole kind of constructing them as innocent, but [00:11:00] also seeing that you know that there is risk associated with having those conversations, Um, that that in many ways, is what leads Children to be vulnerable because they don't have the the understanding, the experiences or because they know that those are things that we don't talk about. So in some ways all of those things that that we're not doing are making Children more vulnerable, even though we think that we're protecting them. It's a really interesting thing to go away with, and I think she's gonna do [00:11:30] some more research about it and write a book about it and stuff. And I'm really keen to kind of keep exploring that in my own kind of work, but also with students as well and and mates who appear, You know, at that workshop, I think somebody said that they know of a couple who are afraid to be naked around their Children because of the possible kind of consequences. If that's how far this backlash has gone, then I'm really concerned about that [00:12:00] and I think we do need to talk about these things with young Children because they are at an age that you know, they'll tell you they've got two mummies. They'll be very happy with the fact that they've got 11 grandmothers because of the way that their family is constituted and diverse and stuff, but, um, and it's kind of adults who put those blocks in the way who who introduce that kind of heteros or homophobic or kind of, you know, it's not OK to talk about that stuff [00:12:30] to Children. One of the things that I've been thinking about a lot and I brought up at our workshop today was the the eye of where the teacher's role is the families. Some of the families that I interviewed said things like, I would have loved to have seen a rainbow flag, anything, anything that said to me, This place is for you. You belong here. And even though for the most part teachers were really welcoming, they were nice. They were friendly, They were great. [00:13:00] Just that extra mile. You know, one of the mothers said to me They have a staff meeting once a fortnight. I get the feeling that they've never even sat down for 15 minutes and thought, What would it be like to be a child with two mothers in this place? You know, what can we do to better support this family? So there. So I suppose one of my questions is how do we, um, educate people [00:13:30] to become committed to this area of diversity in the same way that they're committed to other areas of diversity, but also in terms of the role of the teacher. What does it mean? Most of the homophobia, if you like from, Um, the research that we've looked at and that I've done doesn't come from teachers. Teachers may for the most part, are professional. They might. I think they're hem a lot of the time, but really, are they homophobic? [00:14:00] From my perception, the real homophobia comes from other families and centres and other families, Um, perhaps talking to their Children or not letting their Children play with with Children from same gender families or whatever it also comes about in school. And we did get some stories in the research I did in Tertiary, um, about a child who nobody would play with in the playground in a school yard. Um, he had two mothers and was considered to have gay germs, [00:14:30] so the other Children avoided this child. And when I said to the to the student who was telling me this, I said, So what did the teachers do? She said, I don't think the teachers knew what to do. So there are things around addressing homophobia that isn't coming from teachers. But that's coming from other families. How, What is the role of the teacher in relation to addressing that with Children and and perhaps even with other families? But with the culture of the centre in terms of, I mean, it comes down to, in a way of perhaps, a bullying [00:15:00] perspective, looking at what's, um, bigger picture stuff policies, Um, acceptance, celebrating and and the dignity. That's a word that I'm going to go away with because that came through really strongly at the beginning of this conference, and I really like it in terms of dignity. And, um, yes, so I've got I've got a lot of questions in terms of my own work, as well as some of the bigger issues or the more broad general community. [00:15:30] Issues that have been raised is that kind of homophobia in early childhood centres. Is that widespread in terms of isolating Children of gay and lesbian parents? It's hard to know. I think, that that gay and lesbian parents are absolutely like they think long and hard about where they send their Children to early childhood and and from the research that we did, they identified that they would go somewhere where word of mouth from members of their community suggested it was a safe and no place [00:16:00] place to be where they knew that they were gay and lesbian teachers, even if those teachers weren't out. And I think in, like in primary and secondary schools. But I mean in any early in any education setting, I think teachers kind of negotiate that stuff about how far in or out of the closet they are, depending on, you know, depending on their, um, a whole lot of factors. Um, I think that they also they want these parents wanted their Children to. They brought [00:16:30] them up to have an understanding about prejudice and ways of countering kind of prejudice. And so when they were looking for places to enrol their Children, they were they looked at places that that had a whole lot of other diversity in them because they thought that at least that, um, some of those issues would be, and those issues around prejudice would be being discussed there because there was a whole lot of refugee and migrant families or because, you know, there was a whole lot of Children with special needs. [00:17:00] Um, you know, additional needs things like that. So So they were careful about where they were taking their Children. I think there's also this feeling, and I and I see it about other issues as well. And you know, I don't mean to belittle either of the issues, but that there are often teachers who will say We don't have to, um we don't have to address issues to do with ethnicity because we don't or or Maori because we don't have any Maori families here. So why would we do the gay stuff? Because we don't have any gay families here. Actually, [00:17:30] you know, the percentage of gay families in society is growing. Um, their visibility is growing because of support of legislation and because, you know, IVF technology is available to them and all of those kind of things. And so I think that's a cop out on the part of teachers. And that's certainly the kind of message that I'm giving to student teachers, both in the early childhood programmes where I teach, but also when I'm the invited. You know, um, I've put my hand up around [00:18:00] the faculty to do the sexuality lecture. Sometimes it's the very last lecture that the secondary graduates do before they graduate. But I'm very keen to kind of that. I do that like I understand about heterosexual privilege now, but I also know what it's like to be discriminated against because of my kind of past history. So I'm very keen to do those lectures, and I'm very keen to challenge those people. But I know that, you know, one lecture at the end of the programme or something, or, um, one lecture [00:18:30] about diverse families as part of their human development. 101 is not gonna cut it and that it needs to be broader than that. And I think that, you know, when we use scenarios in our teaching with student teachers, we often chuck in the lesbian mothers at the centre just just because it's kind of part of my research and some other some other colleagues who happen to be lesbian or, um, you know, have understandings of these issues and the importance of them. So I didn't quite answer the question, but I think that, um, [00:19:00] you know, there's some interesting stuff there worth saying Interesting stuff was the stuff. Has there been stuff in the conference that has really challenged thoughts that you have? I think one of the challenges for me has been religious diversity, actually in in my teaching because, you know, you asked before about was there much homophobia that families [00:19:30] experienced? And in my research, not there wasn't very much at all. There were two Children out of the research who who had been, um, stopped, if you like, from playing with particular Children and and in one case, um, there were religious differences. That was a, you know, cultural and religious differences and that that's definitely a challenge for me, because I'm still not sure how teachers and how how I as an educator, work with people for whom [00:20:00] my sexuality, a queer sexuality, is a sin against God. I'm actually I'm still I'm still challenged by that one. Everybody sees it as an abomination, though. I mean, I think the fact that you know there are there have been workshops here exploring sexuality that they've been supported by, you know, a local church community. Um, that that I've seen people presenting from countries where you know where Christianity [00:20:30] is is not necessarily the the prevalent religion, but where there are other religions and thought that they would be extremely oppressive and and sure they probably are. But I've seen people in those countries fighting for their right to be seen and respected and for their dignity and to be upheld and all those sorts of things. I think for me it's like whilst we might have achieved a whole lot in New Zealand in terms of legislative change that that society's attitudes generally have lagged behind, [00:21:00] um but that that within the Asia Pacific region, not everybody has benefited from the same kind of support that that we have in this country and that, um, you know that we can't afford to be complacent, that we I think that there is a very I don't know whether it's organised. But I have a very strong sense that the number of fundamentalist Christians going into teacher education [00:21:30] is high and growing and that I absolutely know that the way to shape social attitudes is is through education and that you, um you know, those are kind of things that, like Dave says, I need to think about some more and think about ways of countering. Or, you know, I think that that exploring ways to get people to rather than that going head to head with them about differences [00:22:00] of opinions, getting them to kind of delve into their thinking and, you know, explore it a bit more or theorise it or, um, some of that stuff to help them kind of understand a little better, but also about, you know, and I've heard people say it a lot. I don't care about your personal beliefs. When you come into this place, we have a shared philosophy, a curriculum document [00:22:30] and that you leave your personal opinions at the door. And when you come in here, you do and teach and say and be things that fit with, particularly with young Children that fit with our philosophy. So who you are or what you believe doesn't matter here that you when you're in this place, you do it like this. So you know, I don't know if everybody thinks like that. I read something the other day that said, um, you know, get some, get some professional development around helping you explore these issues [00:23:00] with young Children, and if you're not OK with them, then don't work here. And I don't know, maybe parents have a choice about We're not going to that centre because there's too many queer staff there or we saw a rainbow flag there or that's not the place for our family. And, like they do have a choice. You know, they can go to somewhere down the road. So rather than teachers not confronting those issues because they don't want to upset parents and families or whatever, then maybe what we need and I think we're starting to see is that magnet centres. You know, I heard the other day of a centre in [00:23:30] Auckland, where there were 11 lesbian headed families on the roll, and I heard that from a straight identified teacher that works there. But I and I said to her that you've obviously become a magnet centre. Words got out in this community that it's an OK place to be, and and I'm really gratified about that because in Deb's research, I heard her say, a lesbian parent was, you know, wanted to see things in the centre that reflected their diversity but [00:24:00] was mindful that their child was one of 30. And so if every family was into that, then you know, would there be room for all of the things that they wanted to see there. So the fact that there's 11 out of 30 or 11 out of 50 or whatever gives me heart and makes me think it must be really lonely when you're not in that kind of space. OTL lonely The lonely OTL Is that a new? Is it a new acronym? It's not a new [00:24:30] acronym. My daughter who introduced it to me a couple of years ago and she's when she was 14, a TL Have there been other kind of kind of queer words that have been bandied about this conference that, uh, something we should put on record? Glitter bucket? I heard someone say that before a young woman went up to a speaker and said in the workshop, I heard you use the term glitter bucket. I've never heard that before. What does that mean? [00:25:00] And the woman said, it's a um it saves having to go through the whole list of gay, lesbian, transsexual, intersexual, bisexual so the glitter bucket. But I don't know about the B for bucket in the I don't know, But, um, it's interesting that that, you know, people are that it's being used by people and other people want to know what it means. I don't any other words. Um, [00:25:30] you know, I wonder sometimes when we go on about heteronormative If, um, if people understand that, or that's just an academic kind of term, Um, and I think on our power point we put a definition of it, and I saw it on somebody else's PowerPoint as well. So, you know, hopefully that stuff contributes to people's understandings when they when they the proceedings, you know? So what do you think you'll take away from this conference? I'm certainly feeling [00:26:00] energised, you know, and and affirmed and feeling better able to continue the fight if you like, because sometimes it does get a little bit lonely, even though I've got other colleagues and and and friends. It does feel as if the responsibility to challenge ideas around heteronormative tends to fall on people who are queer. It tends to fall on us to take the action, and I guess we need places like this to come [00:26:30] to and be nurtured ourselves and be encouraged and have ideas around our our own dignity. Um, enhanced. And I've also had some really exciting ideas about some more research I wanted to do, and that's that's making me feel very motivated. I, too, feel energised but know that there's a huge job to do out there. And there aren't lots of people doing it, Like Deb says. So getting [00:27:00] more people who, um, you know who are supportive of queer issues, Um, you know, I think it's It's when I think back to my days of, um, doing anti-racism education. I belong to an organisation called Woman Debate the treaty. And that was really significant because Maori woman had a whole lot of other things to do. And I think that, um, just like that, we need those kind of, you know, we need other people [00:27:30] to be involved in this, not just us. Um, I think that, um, I've got a whole lot of, um, resources. I've got the PPT a pamphlets about Someone tells you they're gay or there's nothing wrong with being straight, straight and narrow. That's a problem. So, um I There was some of those at the faculty of education where I worked, but they disappeared from the staff room after I borrowed them from the secondary programme. Um, so that gave me, you know, cause for concern then. So I got a whole lot more, [00:28:00] and I think I talked to somebody about it, and they said you should just be grateful that somebody needed them, obviously more than you did. And hopefully that they're using them. I thought, Yeah, right. Um, I've also got a lot of wrist bands. Compliments to the New Zealand police that say stand to be proud, safer communities together. And some, um, and some rainbow Emory boards that they were offering as part of the same sex for women [00:28:30] package because men got condoms, found that kind of interesting, maybe slightly narrow view of the whole issue. But nevertheless, um, I've got some a whole lot of, um, stuff about from the Netherlands that came in the sponsorship pack to go and share with my gay mates, who I'm sure will enjoy the magazines. Some more wristbands to give away. Um, I've made some fab, um connections with people both in Australia [00:29:00] and New Zealand, or reaffirm those connections in the kind of early childhood research community and beyond, but also met a bunch of people from the Waikato who are involved in Waikato Youth Network. And, um and so you know, that's been really useful to get some local kind of connections with people who might be willing to come and talk to students and stuff like that. And also, um, you know, had a fab time in Wellington just after the Lesbian art exhibition this afternoon. Been to velvet last night [00:29:30] and sat on the pink sofa that was, you know, the sponsors kind of. So all of those things have been fabulous. And I think, you know, just just a sense of belonging to something across the whole region, not just New Zealand, but also, um, you know, and having a good time in Wellington taking away my memories. One final question. Skip ahead 30 years, and somebody's listening back to this tape. What would you say to them? I hope that the world is full [00:30:00] of rainbow families and that early childhood centres are safe places for those families to be, and they don't have to look as hard to find one as what you do now. I hope that, um, the Children who are in early childhood centres now and in the next few years the ones who come out as gay in their high schools, have a comfortable time of it. I hope that the now making a difference [00:30:30] in our whole communities and that sexuality is no longer considered the least likely diversity to be addressed in our education system generally.
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