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My name's Susan Hawthorne. Uh, and I'm the chair for this session today. Uh, the speakers, uh, on the programme are Kelly Ellis, who is a a barrister from Auckland. Uh, there are two other speakers. Be, uh, Beatrice Tore and Eric Manas. And, uh, I'm hoping they will come [00:00:30] in very soon because they're on second. Um, and the, uh, third speaker is Marie Mitchell, who is an intersex activist educator and Wellington. But I'll just briefly introduce people as they come up anyway, so welcome to this session. Uh, I hope it'll be a wonderful session, as everything has been so far, and, uh, it's great to be here. So, uh, over to you, [00:01:00] Kelly, um, who, as I said before, is a barrister from Auckland. Thank you. Uh, greetings, people. And, uh, I just have to say, it's great to be here and great to be, uh, in Wellington, which is my old home town. Uh, I won't spend much time on an introduction. Uh uh. I'm a a barrister who, uh, has done criminal work for the last 20 odd years. And, uh uh, the last couple of [00:01:30] years, I've been, uh, involved in advocacy. Uh, on trans issues in a more formal way. Although, um, over the years, I have to say that, uh, I've done a lot of pro pro bono work, uh, free work, uh, for, uh, for trans people. And only over the last couple of years have I been involved in a project called the Trans Advocates Law Project, which was founded with me by my good friend, uh, and sister in arms, Uh, Alison Hamblet, who was going to be here, but unfortunately, couldn't, [00:02:00] uh, couldn't make it, but, uh, after, uh, uh, creating a synopsis of, um uh what this, uh uh, presentation was going to be I was most grateful for the organisers to slot it into something and give it a heading, which was models of advocacy, and I thought, Marvellous. Now I know what I'm talking about. And, uh, I have to say that, um uh, in terms of advocacy, uh, my, uh, proposition, which I'm going to put forward and, uh, probably erode to an extent. But I suppose [00:02:30] that's one of the big issues about being trans is that, uh, you can see things from both sides, But the proposition is that a stealthy approach to gaining trans rights, uh, through strategic advocacy is perhaps a better way of going about things than trying to, uh uh, get that big case and have that fabulous victory, Uh, in the struggle for human rights in a comparatively wealthy and liberal country like New Zealand. [00:03:00] Uh, the most, uh, public or perhaps the most public and frequently fought battle, uh, is for the freedom of accused people before the criminal courts. Because, of course, um, as with, um, um, most countries, uh, people who uh uh, appear before the courts being, uh, uh, presumed innocent until proven otherwise, uh, often struggle to get bail. And that is usually because of a previous history. Uh, but that struggle for bail in the face [00:03:30] of an accusation means that defence lawyers and, uh, in my humble opinion, of course, this does sound so promotional. Uh, we are indeed one of the the frontline fighters, uh, for freedom, and it might sound freedom fighter. Might sound like an overly grandiose, uh uh, description of what defence lawyers do. But the reality is we go into an adversarial arena, the court, and, uh, we have to, uh, uh, fight our adversary for the freedom [00:04:00] of our clients. And so freedom fighter is actually very matter of fact way of describing a criminal lawyer. And, uh, indeed, that's what the court is. It is adversarial. It's a battleground where there are winners and losers. And I suppose we can be grateful for having a a state funded regime. Uh uh, which allows, uh, defence lawyers to be paid. But the current government is on a programme of locking up more people while it cuts spending on defence [00:04:30] lawyers. It spends more money on police and the prosecution service run by the various crown solicitors around the country. The right to silence even this up for review. Already there have been erosions to the rights of, uh, search and seizure not only by the court of Appeal, but parliament and also, uh uh through various legislative, uh, sorry. Various, uh, common law, uh, decisions, uh, in the court of appeal. Uh, recently, uh, for example, a, [00:05:00] um a lawyer went to the Supreme Court saying that the, uh, credit one gets for, uh, pleading guilty early. Uh, was not, um, to be set in the arbitrary fashion at 33% for a starter and the Court of Appeal said Yes, you're absolutely right. It should be 20%. And so there is an example of the Supreme Court when a defence lawyer and it was very able counsel. And I don't mean to simplify the case in a way which might seem critical of Herman's [00:05:30] argument. But he went to the court of appeal with something, and the court of Appeal sent him away with less. And no, council wants to be on the name of a tariff case and, for example, that case queen And he whenever you're trying to say, Your honour, Your Honour, Your Honour, my client pleaded guilty at the outset. Uh, the judge refers to that case and says, OK, 20%. And of course there's the case. There is the name of counsel on it. And, uh, unfortunately, the vanity of, um, almost all lawyers [00:06:00] means that, uh, they don't want to appear. What don't want to appear is the, um, council on a losing decision. And there are a number of these and, uh, I I won't go through, uh, the entire erosion of, uh, rights for criminal accused over the last, uh, 15 years. But certainly the high water market was about 1995. And since then, uh, all sorts of things have changed the concept, which some of you may be familiar with of the [00:06:30] fruit of the poison tree. In other words, if a search warrant or a search, uh, or the extraction of a confession, uh, somehow infringes against the law, then you will not be able to as a prosecuting agency enjoy the, uh, the the fruits of that well in New Zealand. Uh, just as an example, they brought in a case called this case called Queen and Shaheed, which sent AAA defence Lawyer away with his tail leak between tail between his legs. Uh, but that was quickly, uh, gobbled up [00:07:00] by the Evidence Act in 2008, which basically provided a new regime, which was if, uh, gathering evidence is like, um, catching fish for certain fish, you're only allowed to use a certain size net. And if the, uh, ranger, that's the court catches you, uh, basically, the new test is that there is a balancing test. How big is your fish? And how bad was the infringement? And if you caught a big fish. Well, then, unless you've been fishing with dynamite or poison, you're going to get away with it. [00:07:30] And if your net size isn't too too far away from, uh, the regulation rather than forfeiting your car, your car and your boat and all that kind of thing, the fishing ranger will let you go. And that's what the court of Appeal did and Shaheed and what it's done in the Evidence act. And there's a moral to the story. Sorry, it's a little long winded, but I get now to the Trans Advocates mission, and we formed, uh, this organisation, just an alliance of, uh, advocates for, [00:08:00] um, trans issues. And our mantra was, um uh, uh influence through presence. And we thought that if we simply, uh, sorry to use such a masculine term penetrated the, um, the structures of society with trans people. Maybe that was going to be a better way than going and risking an adverse decision, Uh, by taking a case to the court of appeal or whatever. Uh, so, in short, uh, [00:08:30] well, it's all, uh uh uh Great. And I turned my mind back to when we first started with the equal access to Justice project, which is, uh, uh, university students at Auckland University, who assisted us with some of the work we've been doing. One bright spark mentioned, and I don't know, a few people know about it, but the law surrounding when one can get one's birth certificates changed to reflect one's chosen gender is a little bit ambiguous. And there have been various decisions [00:09:00] which have come out which haven't worked out all that well, uh, the Human Rights Commission has, uh, in its, um uh uh uh, View, uh, has said that the law needs to be clarified on this. Now, the point is that there are a couple of ways of going about it, and one of these bright sparks from the, uh uh, equal access to justice project said Go to the high Court and get a declaratory judgement because at this stage, the only law on it is in the District court, [00:09:30] and that is a a lower court and does not have binding authority on any other court in New Zealand. Even though it is a very well reasoned decision, it's a case called re Michael. But as I said to this, uh, uh, bright spark. Uh, there was a time when, uh, I was, uh, of that view 20 years ago when I first came into the law and looked at myself, um, a young man with a dream, But, uh, experience has shown that, uh, why is appellate counsel are very [00:10:00] careful about the cases they take to the high court, the Court of Appeal or the Supreme Court? So moving on, uh, just I want to just quickly mention AAA case, which is coming up soon. I can't mention the name of it. I can't give very much information about it because it's all suppressed. But it's an immigration case. And, uh, the judge has made a, uh, a decision which is going up for review. And, uh, the challenge to the, uh, the challenge to the decision [00:10:30] is that the judge used the phrase, uh, lifestyle choice when it came to somebody having uh uh, being Trans and said that she had made this lifestyle choice and it was up to her and the consequences. This is how we're going to argue it. Uh, the consequences that flow from that choice are, um, uh, on her head because it is a choice. And that decision is in all honesty, the, [00:11:00] uh uh pending high court review is going to be a scary one. And I've, uh I'm only involved on the periphery, basically as a sort of a trans, um uh, offering input on trans issues. But that's the kind of thing where the high court could come out very easily and ill informed high court. And I have to stress that the high court is very, very rarely ill informed. But there is always the risk of a decision coming out which is not favourable. And if that decision came out and it wasn't [00:11:30] favourable, that could have, uh would have a binding, uh, a binding effect on lower courts. So taking a little bit of a step back from wanting to, uh, win the big case and and and make one's name and all that kind of thing. Uh uh. And of course, that was well and truly beaten out of me by repeated appearances in the Court of Appeal over the years, uh, it came to me that over the last 20 years, I've argued constantly [00:12:00] with judges over the use of names and pronouns for trans clients, and it's I won't repeat the comments, but usually it's, um, uh, charged as a man will therefore be referred to as a man. And I've had some sort of quite little arguments, and it's, you know, it's it's it's not good having teachy little arguments with judges because, after all, you're trying to persuade them. And, uh, but digging my toes in on that [00:12:30] over the years, uh, has given me sore tyres. Uh, but, uh, it's interesting to see that, uh, having transitioned and appearing in front of them now that, uh, use of pronouns, they all try to get it right. And it's, uh I'm not talking about something which has happened to change over the years. I'm talking about a judge I appeared in front of, say, two years ago, uh, and and argued [00:13:00] the toss. Now they all make that effort, and I think to myself trying to win these big cases, trying to do it through actual advocacy. Maybe greater influence happens rather than sort of trying to, uh, hit the snake on the head. Maybe it happens by trying to saturate from the bottom up. And this is the model of advocacy and certainly post, uh, homosexual law Reform Act. [00:13:30] Uh, it has been easier for gay men and gay women, too, I suppose, because of a sort of a knock on effect to, uh, be present in a lot of parts of New Zealand society, and that probably has, uh, almost more influence. I mean, let's get real. The, uh, the homosexual law reform bill didn't actually change what women were or were allowed to do with each other. But I'm absolutely sure that, uh, it's, [00:14:00] uh, creation of AAA Slow but inevitable sea change, Uh, of, uh, influence, uh, throughout the country. Makes it easier for everybody within the rainbow community and looking perhaps, uh uh geographically, uh, Auckland, Uh, the number of gay and lesbian women practising at the criminal bar is probably roughly, uh, roughly proportionate, uh, to the population. [00:14:30] And that is phenomenal, because I go down to, uh, I go all over the place. Uh, I don't find gay lawyers at the criminal bar who aren't based in Auckland. They just don't have them in the Waikato, for example. And in fact, in the they've only just really let, uh, recently let women uh, do, um, uh, do some of the top level criminal work. And when I say it lead to them. We're talking about old style patriarchal structures [00:15:00] which create a situation where there are no women doing top end criminal legal work. And I suppose we're left with the proposition of either all the women in the white, uh, than the blokes, Uh, and and that would really take some doing, uh or, uh, more likely that the, uh, environment. And, uh uh, the is just not as conducive to women doing, uh, well in law, uh, than it is, um, in Auckland. And when I think about the number of trans lawyers, [00:15:30] uh uh, that doing criminal law. Well, I think I might just form the, um, New Zealand, uh, transgender, uh, criminal bar association right now, because I think and please speak up if there are any because I'm very keen on making contact with other trans lawyers who are appearing in courts on a regular basis, but we seem to be rather few and far between very few and far between. But the point is that for trans people, we can [00:16:00] take a big lesson from, uh, the way gay men and gay women have. Um uh, uh penetrated and sort of soaked their way into the Auckland bar. And they've achieved the status by simply being there and doing it rather than fighting for specific cases for lesbian rights or gay rights or whatever. Just being there has, uh, a remarkable influence. And, uh, as I said, the, uh, homosexual law Reform Act certainly, [00:16:30] uh uh formed the right, but it's been far from paved. Uh, and, uh uh, the mainstreaming of diversity in the Auckland courts, I have to say is, uh is is very heartening. And if the, uh, uh, lesbians and gays have effectively shown trans people, uh, where the goal is, uh, pointed the way I mean, I won't say that our road is the same, but, uh, to gain such acceptance within the justice system, it's probably more productive to go [00:17:00] the way that they have, rather than, as I said, trying to pursue that, uh, big case where one risks the adverse, uh, decision. And while that might sound pathetically gun shy, uh, the reality is that on this particular issue about when or when you can't get your birth certificate changed to reflect your chosen gender. While I've looked for cases over the last two years, it seems that the ones that get turned down almost invariably are ones where the application could have been made [00:17:30] better. Uh, and, um, and different litigation strategy could be used. For example, um, we we can apply for these changes to, uh, make these court applications in the main centres by the consent of the Department of Internal Affairs. Who is the other party in the proceedings and could require that you make your application in the Invercargill District Court, but has indicated that it's happy to have them heard in the main centres. Where dare I say it? There is a more [00:18:00] liberal and informed bench. So, looking at this, you think the best way of getting trans people on what the best way of getting influence is getting trans people on the ground, doing things and getting them on the ground doing things is something which is done by stealth. Not necessarily, not necessarily by, um, uh, uh going for that big case. And, uh, as a closing remark, I have to say, uh, in the end, we have to wonder, [00:18:30] uh, what is the fish that flourishes most in New Zealand rivers? Uh, the biggest and longest living fish in the rivers is the eel, and it lives at the bottom of the river, and it very rarely breaks the surface. And no matter how big the boulders are or how swift the current is, uh, it it hangs in there grows to a ripe old age, whereas the most hunted fish in the river, the one which lures people from the Americas to come here, of course, [00:19:00] is the rainbow trout. And it splashes on the surface surface attracts a lot of attention, and some might say that it's very successful. Uh, in in a lot of respects, it's survival is guaranteed because they're farmed and reintroduced, reintroduced into the rivers. But the point is it the eel, which grows to be the the biggest, strongest and most flourishing fish in the river rather than the one which splashes the surface. So thank you for your time. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, friends and others, [00:19:30] OK, our next speaker, um, is Marie Mitchell. Um she, as I said before, is an intersex activist and educator and Wellington, and she's talking about? What does the I stand for in LGBTI and should it be there? Welcome, man. [00:20:00] So and And I want to thank the conference organisers for the opportunity to have this talk today, and it it's not an answer. What? What I'm hoping to do today is to achieve the starting of a conversation because you, those of you who have been coming to conferences, would have noticed for round about the last 15 years that the eye has started to appear. [00:20:30] And I and I've heard people talking over the last two days appropriately, you know, what's it there? Why is it there? And the interesting thing is that some of the people who will be advocating for it not to be there, uh, intersex people themselves. But before I start, um, I want to acknowledge those who are not with us today and for myself in particular, two friends who are no longer here. Heather McAllister and American [00:21:00] and Max Beck. Max, who was, um, my closest friend who together helped me unfold Um, my intersex reality. Because when I, um, was born in 1953 intersex was something that you didn't talk about. It was an issue of silence and shame. And so I grew up as a child, really not understanding who I was or having a language to talk about myself. So in [00:21:30] 1996 I had the extraordinary opportunity of going to America to the world's first gathering of intersex people. Now I say this with some nervousness. So let's be clear about this. This is a first gathering of intersex people in a modern Western context, because I'm very aware that we've got people in the room today and special greetings to you where there are cultures where intersex realities have been known for thousands of years [00:22:00] and intersex people have been gathering under another names and other terms, but in a in a loved and cultural context. So this is a Western context. Um, there were nine Americans and I was there representing the world. And it's even hard now, remembering the fear that was there amongst all of us and the hope you know what had brought this group of people together to [00:22:30] dare to imagine that there could be a different reality outside this shame, fear filled reality that all of us had lived with, Um Heather died. As you can see in 2007, Heather was not an intersex person. Um, Heather was a gay lesbian artist who developed a burlesque troupe and travelled around America, celebrating large [00:23:00] bodies and celebrating sexuality, and would often talk about trends and intersex issues in her work. An amazing, wonderful person and Heather died of ovarian cancer in 2007. Now, as we talk about issues and, um, rights in America, you get good medical care if you have insurance. And artists and people who are travelling on the road often don't have insurance. [00:23:30] And so by the time the community had got together and they did and raised an enormous amount of money, Um, Heather was a pragmatist, and she decided that probably her chances of surviving radiation and and treatment were very poor. And so, with permission of the people who had raised the money, she took herself off to Paris and had a wonderful couple of months in Paris celebrating herself and, as I say, [00:24:00] died in 2007. Max, my friend um, was raised as a female person. We're going to talk in a moment about the details of intersex, um, lived in the south of America and realised that, uh uh, a blurred reality was probably problematic and decided to live as a man. Um, Max had a vagina that was constructed from a malaria remnant [00:24:30] as a child and developed a very rare form of cancer. But because Max was living as a man wasn't entitled to female health care. So by the time that the insurance company decided that Maxx, the man, could actually receive gynaecological support and services, the cancer had developed far too far. So I'm just putting that out in terms of one of the reasons why I should be. There is for health reasons and terms, and I think that [00:25:00] the Rainbow Banner is an appropriate place for that. So to Max and Heather not going, um, some of you will have heard during the conference people referring to Sue Dunlop, a local wonderful lesbian musician who would have been very large in the conference. Um, had she still been with us, and [00:25:30] Sue tragically died very suddenly, Um, last year again from cancer. I'm sure she's here in spirit, and we've talked about the the catastrophic disasters that are impacting um, plane and I want to go back a little bit and just acknowledge, um, my Australian colleagues that the terrible floods that occurred in Queensland we know what's been going on here in New Zealand and what is currently unfolding [00:26:00] in Japan. But I'm also mindful of the tsunami that struck the Asia Pacific region several years ago. So back to the eye. So what are we talking about when we talk about intersex now, a definition that I'm comfortable with is a physical body that someone has decided is not standard male or female. And that's important. Um, the medical [00:26:30] definition shifts and changes and who's underneath that umbrella? And that's all intersex is. It's an umbrella term also shifts and changes. So under that umbrella, uh, at the moment in the West, there's at least 30 different diagnosable conditions. And as I say, what what is on that list? Changes. The what was under the umbrella when I was born is not the same as [00:27:00] it is now, Um, and yeah, that's important. Intersects, um, we talk about what the incident is. Incidence is where the condition is visible and able to be diagnosed. The generally agreed figure is probably one in 2000 live births. But we have research coming out of several countries, Hawaii in particular, where it's clear that the number and incidents is [00:27:30] much higher and may be as high as one in 100. But most of those conditions are invisible. They're not diagnosed, and they certainly are not known to the person with the condition. This is a really important point. So as intersex people grow up and become adults, we're located all across the gender, gender and sexual orientation map. Um, those [00:28:00] of us who will stand and be visible and identified as an intersex person are incredibly small in number. This this remains a shame. Fear issue, and for people to re remove themselves from that blanket that surrounded them as a child is very difficult. And what I know is, um, when you've grown up in a situation where it's very clear that there's something wrong with you [00:28:30] and something that needs to be fixed, you aspire as a teenager to be normal and to blend into society, to not be different. And so so to go through that evolutionary task, Um, as a teenager and and and reach a place where you're comfortable with who you are or even in a place to work that out. I was in my early forties, um, before I began that work, and I [00:29:00] only started that work after completely collapsing. I lived really as a female person. That's who I thought I was. But it was a very plastic false place. Um, I performed, if you like the the role that I thought made my parents comfortable I. I didn't realise that until I was in a position to unpick that for myself. It's not easy to go. Hm OK, I'm a different person. And then to work out what that difference [00:29:30] is. And and again, I say that in the West Because up until recently we had no images. We had no reference point. There wasn't a place where I could go and say, I'm like that person. That's one of the wonderful things that's changing as people are visible and now there are reference points for, um, our young people and I can see the difference that that's making so another point is adults. Uh, many intersex people [00:30:00] are conservative, they're invisible, and I'm certainly aware that many of them are deeply homophobic. And as I say, you will have people who are incredibly uncomfortable with the eye being on a banner. The term intersex is a relatively modern one. it came into usage during the 19 fifties. I haven't ever been able to find out who first [00:30:30] started using it, but it certainly appears in medical text during the fifties. Prior to that in the West, the term was pseudo hermaphrodite and hermaphrodite, and again comes out of a a very inaccurate, um, idea or concept that comes from, um, Greek mythology. So the idea of somebody having a fully formed Penis and breasts which, as you know, is actually not possible. [00:31:00] And I. I just want to take a moment and and re acknowledge that, um, intersex realities exist in in many cultures. And now there's there's two there. There are many other cultures, as as well, um, where the intersex reality has been recognised and and valued. In culture, it's not always like that. There are two extremes. There are other cultures where intersex people were recognised at birth and eliminated, so the story [00:31:30] hasn't always been positive. Um, I've put all this text in in here, and I I'm hoping that you can read it. So the intersex treatment model grew out of it. And as you can see in the fifties, um, and it came about through a conjunction really of a whole lot of secret things. And it's quite interesting to understand that. So the development of better surgery and it's interesting because microsurgery developed massively [00:32:00] during the Second World War um, changing understanding of of gender and sexual orientation. And so we had this notion start to develop in the fifties, led in large part by a New Zealander, um, Doctor John Money, who who had a theory that all of us are born as a blank slate, um, in terms of gender at birth and that gender comes [00:32:30] from socialisation. But part of that also was, um, in terms of socialisation having a normal or congruent body. So the theory was that you could assign a gender. It didn't matter which one. And then so long as the body was physically congruent and the parents there was huge, um, emphasis on the on the parental responsibility. So long as they raised the child correctly, the child would grow up with normal, um, [00:33:00] normal orientation. And it's really important again, I'm I'm thinking about why you belong on the banner if we unpick this. The theory behind this is that the child is going to grow up heterosexual so they will identify and in the gender assigned to them and that their sexual orientation will be heterosexual. So that's it's sometimes stated, but not often stated. And so this model, [00:33:30] um, came into being and and one of the things I'm very aware of, I don't want to criticise it totally because the birth of an intersex child in in Western culture has been very problematic. It was in the fifties, and I don't think that that's changed yet. So this is a little bit more detail about the mo model that was developed, um, in Johns Hopkins University, and it's really interesting that it flew around [00:34:00] the world and was embedded as best practise very, very quickly. And of course, it's gone on to be used in in most, um, countries and cultures around planet Earth. Now, also at this point want to acknowledge that the term intersex has been changed and is no longer used in medical literature, it was replaced six years ago with a much more advanced terminology of DS D. So disorders [00:34:30] of sexual development is the now modern term. Um, most intersex people find this a massive step backwards. So I would I do want to acknowledge that the birth of an intersex child, as I say, creates this anxiety, and I'm gonna put forward a hypothesis shortly. So, um, this is one of the references that is is quite often referred [00:35:00] to out of a piece of medical literature. So next to perinatal death, genital ambiguity is the most devastating condition to face any parent of a newborn. So this was one person's view, but I think it would be supported by a number of medical people that this is a catastrophic situation that is only worse, Um, by the death of the child. [00:35:30] So what are we talking about We're talking about then a a baby that's born with this different body. Um, and I don't know what it's like in other cultures, but typically in western culture, when a child is born, the first question that's asked, Is it a boy or is it a girl? I've had the privilege of working with, um, a very senior midwife here in Wellington. [00:36:00] And we actually have developed in the midwifery course a programme, and I know absolutely that with information and with time, midwives very easily find the language to be able to have a conversation with a mother that's not a panicked, full of anxiety conversation where there can be a different outcome. But typically, um, the birth of a child at the moment in many, many settings around the world is one filled with, um, extreme [00:36:30] anxiety and concern. So my understanding of really what was going on came from a conversation that I had with a mother in Australia, how we're going on time. Mhm, OK, and I was asked to speak to this mother now at the point I had the conversation with her. Her intersex child was about 15 and [00:37:00] I. I came in to talk to the mother, and she was still talking without stop two hours later, when I had to leave because I was going to another appointment. And what the woman explained to me, I, I didn't really understand at the time, as I say. My understanding came later and she explained her child was born and and there was shock in the room. She knew that immediately, Um, the child was taken away from her and [00:37:30] she was left completely alone for about five minutes. And after five minutes, the the senior medical specialist came in and he he he started the conversation, that he had some very bad news for her. And I have to tell you, this child was perfectly healthy other than the insect condition, and he sat down beside her and, um used the word intersex and and she she must have had some training because she knew what [00:38:00] he was talking about. She said he carried on talking because his lips were moving. But she had absolutely no memory of what he had said. And she said, What happened in my head was I started to think about my baby, and I thought about my baby growing up and how terrible my baby's life would be. And I thought about my child, um, becoming a teenager and and she went on in this narrative until she reached um, her child being a sexual being. And she was absolutely convinced [00:38:30] that her daughter, as she didn't know the gender, but it would be her daughter would be a lesbian and that she would have no grandchildren. And it is unpicking that that I started to realise that the what goes on and the birth of an intersex child is this very ancient response to difference. And what goes on is a response. It's a homophobic response, both on the parents' side, and I think unconsciously on the medical [00:39:00] team. II. I don't think that this is a known or understood, um, emotional phenomena that's going on. And so even today, um, typically, the response is that we we that society looks at the child, and doctors make a decision whether this is a male child or a female child, and they still absolutely believe in the paradigm of, um, binary. [00:39:30] And then typically the surgery is carried out even earlier. The surgeons like to do the surgery within the first six weeks because they assure me that that's the best co cosmetic results, how often this is occurring. Well, I know at one stage last year here in New Zealand, and this is not a large country, that there were five Children waiting for this surgery. Um, these are the reasons that are given by medical people for [00:40:00] the surgery to occur. As you can see, it's quite a a long list, and and my question and the conversation that I want to carry on when we, um, get to question time is as a queer community, I believe that this is an issue, absolutely, that affects all of us. And I don't believe that the treatment of intersex Children will improve greatly [00:40:30] until we deal with homophobia on Planet Earth and people feel comfortable with having a child who is different. We don't know how that child is going to grow up. They may be the most outrageous queen on the planet, um, with a very different gender and sexual orientation or the most conservative person in the street that is absolutely not known when the child is born. That's the issue. Thank you. [00:41:00] Thank you, man. Um, just before we go on, uh, have Beatrice and Eric arrived? No. Looks like they're not coming. OK, so we have heaps of time for questions and discussion, which I think is great. Um, because there are lots of things that have been raised by [00:41:30] both Kelly's and Marie's talks. So please, um ask your questions, OK? Over over here. There's a microphone coming. A roving mic is coming. I'd like to ask. So in your view, being an intersex person, when is the best time for an intersex baby to be well, do they need for, firstly, [00:42:00] do they need to have an operation? What is your view? I'd like to know that right. Well, I, I will give you my view. Um, it's not mine exclusively. But my perfect world would be that the child is loved. Absolutely. The child needs a gender because the reality is that we do live in a binary world of male and female, so it's appropriately. But I think one of the things [00:42:30] that the transgender community has given planet Earth as a gift is even in the most normative body. Um, we don't know how the child's going to identify when they grow up. So all things if the parents were given the tools to love that child and and deal with the issues because I'm I'm absolutely understanding that there will be issues as the child grows up and there's age appropriate conversation so that the child isn't [00:43:00] filled with fear and shame. They realise that they have a different body, but and it's a different OK body. Um, when the child reaches teenage years and and again, it will depend on the development of the child. But at some point they will realise what their gender identity is and then make decisions around whether or not they have surgery. We we have lots of examples of intersex people who have grown up without surgery, and so we know that, um, people [00:43:30] can have wonderful, healthy and very sexually active lives with different bodies, so that's not the issue. But as a teenager, if the child decided that, yes, they did want surgery and people were reasonably comfortable, they weren't doing it just to be normal and fit in. That's what they wanted. And they should have access to the very best surgery that's available with the most competent person. So in answer to your question, it's something [00:44:00] that would occur as you are an adult. This is something we can do as a to drop. Yeah, we talked about this when we were presenting working out this session. I think it's really important that we don't go racing out the door and stoning to death surgeons. That wouldn't be a good outcome. This is a process and a journey. And it will happen when [00:44:30] society is comfortable with difference. And when we deal with homophobia, Um, so we're on a journey here. And yes, I would like it to change today and and for it to be different. But that's unrealistic. What can you do? Go and talk to people and include this in your conversations, Um, and and as that ripples out and and we talk more and talk about difference and and different genders and different sexuality And how do we fit that into our our rainbow? Is [00:45:00] it even appropriate that we fit it into the rainbow? Should and intersex people go off and form another group. You know, should trans people be there? Um, that's the next step. And then to have that vision for that other kind of society and say, you know, where we've come from so far, that's part of the journey part of our. But maybe we're we're heading into a new place that's different. And that will be hard for those of us who are older. You know, we've come from a much more rigid place, [00:45:30] but I think there's an invitation there to get excited about them. OK, so this this new step might be exciting for all of us. Um, hi. My name is Yen. Um, I've got a question for which is, um how, how and who decides what gender the child is. And does the parent have a choice and whether the child receives the surgery or not, Um, at least in New Zealand, quite a complicated question. [00:46:00] And it would vary where, um the child was. But But typically what happens at the moment is, um, the gender of the child. It is defined from quite a complicated medical criteria. So the history would tend to say that say, people with a client filtered condition, typically a male, um, people with this carrier type of their CH are [00:46:30] typically female, so it's not a random allocation of gender, but it's still given in the belief that it's an absolute. So there would be extensive testing carried out, and then the doctors would come back and they wouldn't say Our best guess is they would say your child is male or female. That's the first part of it. The second part is that it's still very difficult to make male genitalia, so the overwhelming [00:47:00] decisions that have been made in the last 50 years have assigned intersex Children to more typically female. Though I think that is changing. That's one of the things that's changing, and it's interesting because it's a complete reversal. So during the Victorian time, the and it wasn't medical thinking it was legal thinking was that it was considered inappropriate to deny the rights and privileges of Maleness to someone who might possibly be [00:47:30] so in the Victorian era. Typically, um, intersex people were assigned male gender as I was when I was first born, Um, but more and more parents are, you know, becoming informed. Thanks to the Internet. Several years ago, I had parents approach me. Their child had been born in a smallish provincial city, So we're not talking about a village. We're talking about a fairly large place. [00:48:00] These parents did not want their child to be operated on, and the consulting clinicians told this family that if their child grew up to be a Mac, an ex murderer not to blame them, and this family had difficulty receiving any kind of medical care at all in this area. This is New Zealand about six years ago. So, yes, parents can not go along with it. Um, [00:48:30] but it's a very, very difficult thing to do. Kelly Marie, do you think that, uh, the, uh the common ground that intersex people have with trans people is the fact that many are mis gendered at birth and face the transition at a later stage? And that is the common ground with the trans and intersex. Um, it's common for some intersex people say some intersex people, um, reach [00:49:00] adulthood and believe absolutely that they were assigned the wrong gender and and then go through transition. If if those of you who are familiar with DS M will know that if you are intersex, you cannot be diagnosed with gender identity disorder. So it becomes very problematic then to transition and a and a a way that a transgender person would. And often the person has had genital surgery [00:49:30] already, and sometimes they've already been given hormones. So a person who wishes an intersex person who wishes to transition faces enormous obstacles. Um, there's a small but growing group of intersex people, and I'd certainly fit into that category who go while I was born with this very unusual and different body. And this part of me, that's masculine part of me. That's Femine. And that's just how it is. And I'm gonna hold that as a as [00:50:00] a reality outside the binary. And so it's It's It's not a clear cut path. Overwhelmingly, the most intersex people would identify as a female or male. Kelly. I just wanted to ask about what role you see the media playing in the sort of strategic advocacy that you talked about. Is it a help or a hindrance? Uh, I initially trained as a journalist, and I have to say that, uh, I don't [00:50:30] wish to dog journalists, but, um, if you've got to suck with a long spoon when you're dining with the devil and I don't think they've made one long enough yet really to dine with a lot of journalists because unfortunately, Trans is still, um, seen as being AAA freak show, and I don't mean to sound critical of of gay male culture. But the creation of all these drag shows and that kind of thing creates this, uh, this [00:51:00] vision, uh, of, um of Trans people being, you know, blonde beehives and, um, and sequins and that kind of thing. And so I look at the the news media overall has been damaging to trans people, particularly when you start looking at, you know, the TV. These reality shows whose reality, uh, with sergeant majors going off and being subjected to multiple multiple medical procedures, all funded by the camera, which is staring [00:51:30] up their surgically created vagina. And if you start looking at this model of, of, of, of media presentation, I think that's really bad. And, uh, I think it creates something which, um, uh, an idea that Trans people are mostly something which most of us aren't. Because, of course, those are the visible trans people, the ones who make it into the into the GL BT magazines and that kind of thing. Um, it's, uh I have to thank George [00:52:00] Bush for this one. I think one of the few things I thank him for was we don't know what we don't know. So I mean, all the trans people there who are flying beneath our radar just never get we just don't know about them. So our perception as when I say our I'm talking about the public perception is what they see in the New Idea magazine. That's what they see, uh, in in the magazines. And, uh, it's what they see on the television and most of us. Our reality is very different from that. So I think that [00:52:30] the media trying to manipulate if I may use that phrase or perhaps something a little more neutral trying to make the best use of the media is something which even somebody who is, uh, um reasonably familiar with journalism such as me. Even I look at it and I think it's a very, very, uh uh, a problematic and scary thing to do. And, uh, I, I don't mean to sort of, I mean here I am, uh, appearing in four courts a day. Some days probably [00:53:00] have sort of appear and more public fora than most Trans people during the course of a week. And, uh, usually there are journalists there, and usually I managed to keep well, always I managed to keep my head down far enough that they write about my clients and not about me. I sort of dread it. And, uh, you know, it's only going to be a matter of time before some bloody new idea person or something finds that they're short of space and, um, and wants to pick up on this the way they picked up on, you know, Bob Moody and that [00:53:30] kind of thing. So it's It's worrying and problematic from a trans advocates point of view. If you do have a public profile and unfortunately, appearing in courts regularly creates this, and so I'm left with the dilemma of, you know, what do I do? Do I try and sort of manage the release of information? So that is, uh, I can favourably influence it all. Um, just try to keep my head down and, uh, especially when journalists are around the place and I usually go for the latter, which might seem a little cowardly, [00:54:00] but, uh, we've all got to make our way through our lives. Don't we hope that answers? Thank you. Um, there's a question here. This is for money. I wanted to ask if you were using in your work some models of gender, which were non medical models of gender. It's not that I'm using a model. It's that I've [00:54:30] lived and unfolded with friends, a new model. So a reality that's neither exclusively male or female didn't exist when I was growing up or not, one that I had access to. So I I Some of us who met in in California in 1996 realised that we we we didn't even have the language. I mean, how do you start talking about something? English is so binary. [00:55:00] And so we became very close friends. We it's even pre regular use of the Internet. So in the first few years we wrote each other letters and then the Internet arrived. And now we've got Skype and and And we talked and we talked and and we danced ourselves a new reality. I mean, I'm now aware through my own research, that there are other cultural realities and how wonderful that was to to find that and and find new realities [00:55:30] to to help affirm what we were doing. So it was. It was a both an exciting and difficult thing to do, and I think now we're starting to get things written, so I think it will be written up soon as a model, but this model doesn't exist anywhere, substantively in in in the West anyway. But thank you for your question. Thank you. A question at the back. Hi, man. [00:56:00] Hello. Um, I'm just wondering if you I've I've been in a position of, um, supporting intersex students before, and, um, I really struggle to access resources, um, to support that work. Um, I'm wondering if you have any suggestions for resources. The organisation that I run, the intersex trust, um, has some resources and our focus. We we haven't been an advocacy peer organisation. [00:56:30] We're an education training organisation. And so one of the things one of the goals that we've made for this year is to make the resources that we have more widely available. So that will include a number of DVD S, um, our little leaflet, and hopefully with funding this year, we'll be able to provide more, more resources for people like yourself. And I think one of the really important things will be, um, this whole idea of fluid [00:57:00] and and plastic rather than creating something. You know, you have to be like this because, as I say, intersex people are hugely varied. And and the primary task for most of us is getting past that shame and fear and isolation, which has surrounded so many of us. And as we've grown up, uh, there's a couple of questions here. I think, um, I've got two, actually, if I'm allowed. Um, firstly, [00:57:30] um, yeah, I just wanted to say that I think the the one of the most valuable things from that presentation for for me was the, um, importance of the link that you make between the way that we culturally respond and medically respond to intersex Children and and people and the the link, the very strong link with homophobia. And, um, it's a hypothesis I I like. I think it's an extraordinarily good one to the degree that for for us to culturally maintain the concept [00:58:00] that heterosexuality is normal, it relies absolutely categorically upon believing that it's true that there are, you know, normal men and normal women and and intersex people, um, challenge that assumption. So I'd like to go one step further and say, You know, not only will the issue of dealing respectfully and appropriately with intersex people be addressed only once we deal with homophobia. But, um, to flip that around a bit and say that anyone who is [00:58:30] serious about dealing with homophobia has a responsibility to be taking, taking on intersex issues and talking about them regardless of whether we ourselves are intersex or not, That's my that's my point. And, um Oh, sorry. No, no, Let's keep talking. Then I'll make my point. Oh, OK. Uh, one of the things that I wanted to say because it would be very easy to sound like I'm demonising the medical profession and I'm not I'm I'm acknowledging there's a construct, [00:59:00] and one of my, um, trustees is sitting here in the audience. Dame Margaret Sparrow and Margaret and I have presented at multiple conferences around the world gently cha challenging, um, this paradigm. And I know that our work certainly has found ears. So it's, uh, if it's sounding like I'm putting all doctors into this box, I'm not and and I think one of our sadnesses is that the the work hasn't got gone as far as we would have [00:59:30] liked. So there are people thinking, and there are people willing to take on what I'm inviting everybody to take on today, and I just want to acknowledge that the support of Margaret and that work Margaret, did you want to say something particularly for, um, the questioner who asked about resources that in 2008, the school curriculum recommended man's story as [01:00:00] a resource. Um, for secondary schools. And what the trust would like to do is in fact, uh, to provide a copy of man's story. Um, for all school, all secondary schools, um, in in New Zealand. And, uh, if anybody feels so inclined, we've got a millionaire sitting in the audience just wanting to give away some money we'd love. We'd love your donation. Do I get, [01:00:30] uh, just This one was for Kelly, which is why it stops there. Sorry. Just it was just a A, I guess. Um, a comment I. I come from Australia, and one of the things that we've found really useful and that I was thinking about as you were talking about, you know, is, um uh do we get change by actually litigating, or are there more? Um, you know, advocacy based ways of of achieving change and one of the things we found it really useful in Australia is to [01:01:00] be using a discrimination complaint mechanism and going through the Human Rights Commission in in the AC T but also, um, federally because, um, I don't know if the process is the same is the same here. But in Australia, when you make a complaint, you get a chance to do a mediation process and by being strategic and, um, engaging usefully in that, um and positively in that process, we've actually managed to get some, um, real [01:01:30] really good positive conversations with people that are sitting around a table that wouldn't otherwise ever sit around a table. And it's a much less adversarial model. And and in Australia, you end up when you reach agreement, you end up with, um, you know, a a binding, binding agreement at the end of that that people actually need to act on. We've got some fantastic policies and changes in direction out of doing that very quietly. So yeah, well, I'd have to say that in terms of complaints. I mean, I do mostly [01:02:00] criminal work and there's only one of me. And so I try and sort of to an extent stick with my knitting, but also try and incorporate as much as I can in it. Um, but one of the interesting things is that complaints and New Zealand has a system where complaints are dealt with in the strangest way. And while say in America, you might end up with a tremendous fight over whether a, um, a non non operated on, uh, Trans woman can go to a woman's prison that might result [01:02:30] in huge litigation and might end up, you know, in the highest court in New Zealand. We seem to have this amazing way of of absorbing the issues, so I don't want us to get too much to anecdotes, so I'll try and be quick. But the the Trans client in the men's prison, uh, is required to give a urine test, uh, to avoid being becoming an identified drug user. So if you fail the test or refuse to give the test, you get that status. She was also asked to be searched, and there were only male prison wardens there, [01:03:00] and she said, Um uh, none of you dicks are going to search my bra. I refuse, and they said, OK, that's fine. You're now an identified drug user and we've got seven days to lay a charge for the visiting justice comes in to deal with things at the prison. So anyway, on the old horn to the prison about this and what did they do? They never laid the charge. So on one hand, while it's sort of you think there will be a great opportunity to litigate and to mediate and [01:03:30] to create awareness and that kind of thing. But the system, rather than having to address these, you know, attitudes and rules which were formed in the fifties and perhaps even earlier, simply avoids it by sort of encompassing, uh, the, uh What's happening. And it means that, for example, we do have one non op that I know of Trans Woman in a women's prison and that, um, women, uh, are not being identified [01:04:00] as drug users because they've refused to let a bloke search their bra. And so I think that sort of, you know, that's it would be nice to be able to do everything. But as I said, I think the old transgender bar association is pretty sparsely populated, but I have to just make one point, which I forgot to mention because I was running out of time was the Human Rights Commission's, uh, transgender, uh, inquiry report has an absolutely brilliant executive [01:04:30] summary, which is available on the website, and I use this on a regular basis I printed off. It's only about eight a four pages. I think Jack will probably correct me on it if I've got it wrong. Um, but annexing that to submissions and putting it in front of, uh, judges, Uh, it is astonishing the results that I've got and generally speaking, what they do is they fudge it. I mean, I had a client who had was looking at eight years jail for chopping off a guy's fingers. Uh, she tried to cut his throat and steal [01:05:00] his what? And she'd normally be getting eight years jail for it. She had the most terrible, tragic upbringing, uh, booted out of home lived rough, uh, worked on the streets, addiction, all the kinds of things which you know we so commonly hear about. And I put all this in front of the judge and said, You know, not only will it be harder for her as a Trans woman in prison, but it will also you know, if you start looking at the causes for her getting here, there are many and varied. Anyway, the judge was just about in tears. [01:05:30] I was doing quite well there and at the end of it said, Well, look, I'm going to give us a six month discount because, um, it's going to be tougher for her in a men's prison. But I can't recognise all the other things that you've raised and then gave her five and she gave her 4.5 years jail. So again, that's a way of you know, I'm not critical of the judge for fudging it, but she did not want to stick her neck out and, uh uh uh again create a situation where she would be [01:06:00] quite possibly appealed by the Crown Solicitor's office and end up creating a potentially adverse decision for her. It was much better to, uh, dismiss the submissions on the point that this is being trans contributed to her economic and, uh, and and legal difficulties. But what she did do was gave the result, which was fair. And just so again, that sort of, you know, that doing stuff by stealth and not, um, taking exception [01:06:30] when your submissions are dismissed, so long as the bottom line is one which accords with, you know, your expectations. So it's a long winded answer, OK? And I was just gonna say, um, just really quickly in terms of the resources. One of Marie's amazing strengths is that she bridges so many different communities and creates discussion and dialogue. Um, with lots of people. And in my paid job, I work at the Human Rights Commission. [01:07:00] Um, and we we we had this exact same question about whether or not intersex people would be included in our transgender inquiry. We had had, um, people. We knew that both trans people and intersex people were very marginalised and suffered human rights violations in this country. And we had a, um on a long list of priority actions we had needing to have an inquiry into the experiences [01:07:30] of both. And from the beginning, we thought, Shall we put them all together? Should we do two? Should we do one? What? What should we do? And we talked with and others, and it's it is also that question I'll stand over here. Um, it's also that question of, um, being strategic about the balance. You know, can a community is a community at a place where actually other people coming in and doing an inquiry is useful? Or does it make [01:08:00] them more prone to does it pull that community apart? And basically the advice we got is there wasn't an intersex community in A at that time, and I think would say there still isn't and it wasn't a safe thing to do. It wasn't a, um, and there weren't people who would want us to mix it all together, so we did a transgender inquiry. But having said that, there were some intersex people, some people with intersex medical [01:08:30] conditions who would hate to be called intersex people, some men or women who had some experience in their life that was relevant to the experience of intersex people who wanted to come and share their stories. And mostly we got the people that Kelly referred to who had some intersection with our community, either because when they were on the street, the other girls they met on the street were trans women or because they had decided [01:09:00] to transition later in life because they were given, you know, the wrong gender. So the the all because they lived in a small rural community and the only other person who was vaguely like them was an was a trans person. So that was kind of like their family or their they they became part of it. And so at the back of the inquiry, there was a a chapter because when we heard those stories and I can remember those submissions and they were some of the most powerful we got and everyone cried, they were really, [01:09:30] really, really powerful submissions. And and there were some people who came to and most of our submissions they weren't people sitting down and writing long things. They were people coming really tentatively into one of our human rights Commission officers or in, and they came to the community centre and being really scared to come in there and then finding some family when they got there. And we set up a room with a cup with food and drink, and people sat there before they came and shared their story and and some shared it with others [01:10:00] there to and support them, and some did it very much in private. But sometimes it was the first time someone met another intersex person. So So we end up with the intersex chapter at the end because we couldn't hear those stories and not share them with others and are there. And that's very uncomfortable for some intersex people that they are there because the front of the of the of the documents is transgender inquiry. So it's a hard thing, so you have to kind of make that call each time. And we made that call based [01:10:30] on the people who were there, the people who were there and the need to pass on their stories. And then since then so So it also means we knew all of you. If you're at the conference, you've got a little, um, rectangular orange pamphlet that says to be who I am on it, and it's got a picture of and also of a, um a a trans woman, Natalie Sheer, and that gives you the URL to find the website, and if you go there, that will take you to the Transgender Inquiry website. [01:11:00] Once again, we added an I page. It's an uncomfortable page, but it's the only place to have visibility at this stage so you can go to that page and you'll also see the little updates of the small amount of work we've done since then, which is large. You know, Margaret and Marie have been a part of that. Other people who are here at this conference have been a part of it and that we've held two round tables where intersex people have sat in the room with, um, health professionals, [01:11:30] endocrinologists, pre predominantly and paediatricians. And And there's also been some human rights commission people there and some academics. And we've said, What does it mean to look at these health issues through the lens through a human rights lens? And I'm always so touched by How does that You are one of those very, very, very generous people. Um, for some of the Maori people here, I often think of as a bit like Moana Jackson. [01:12:00] Like the a huge amount of generosity he has in his approach to people. Um, you are you are that bridge. You make it safe because in those in the last one we had, we had parents of intersex people there, too. And any of you who do who do this activism know the huge potential tensions we have with all of those people in the same room, and you make it safe for all of them. So just another resource is that website page, [01:12:30] and it's got the, um, minutes from both of those round table discussions, which I think are some really good things about, you know, the questions that people might have. Thank you. Um, any more questions? OK, er, thank you very much for the for the the great presentations. Um, I want to ask many two things, um, one of them When, uh, I am an an intersex activist from [01:13:00] from Latin America. And some of my friends and I there, uh, always wonder how are we going to build an understanding of intersex issues different than the understanding that is produced and exported by the US all the time. And I wanted to know your opinion about about that, and it's possible to think about intersex issues in in the terms of our own cultures or Global East Global south, uh, understanding the the other issue is that [01:13:30] most of the time when we talk, uh, with with people around us we talk about, uh, medical practitioners. We talk about what, uh, is been doing to Children right now about our own histories, and we start talking. We have started talking about human rights, and and some of us believe that it's time to start talking about some kind of reparation, including legal reparation, to say, Well, you know, we need to protect Children [01:14:00] that are still not, uh, born, but we also need to take care of our own community of intersex adults. You know, uh, it seems that that our we can talk about intersex issues, uh, in an abstract, you know, to say we need to stop surgeries in the future. But most of us are people, uh, that have been deeply hurt by surgeries that have had place many years ago. And we need [01:14:30] not only a human rights, uh, recognition of that, but a human rights answer. A very concrete answer. Um, thank you for your beautiful questions. And there's numerous. No attempt to answer them. Um, absolutely. The the dominant narrative that has come out in the early years has been the American narrative. And I want to acknowledge Cheryl Chase for at least kicking the door open. And I think and part our answer is here [01:15:00] at this conference because we have multiple narratives presenting themselves and people saying, This is our culture. This is how we see it. Um, you know, don't impose your Western narrative on us. So I think that the intersex narrative has to be a multiply faced narrative and come out of different places and it will be grassroots. It will come from the different countries and there are different histories. You're absolutely right. Um, a lot [01:15:30] of the focus has been on Children and the future, and there are thousands of us. And and that's why I always introduce my presentation with Heather and Max because many of us, our health realities, have been massively compromised by what happened to us as Children. And that has not been recognised. Um, there has been no, that I'm aware of financial compensation. I have [01:16:00] a wonderful doctor. She's a fantastic person around everything except intersex. And I'll give you a story. For many years, she has wanted to do a vaginal smear, and I've said to my doctor, Nina, you can't do it. I don't have standard plumbing and and obviously, in her medical training, there was, um she saw me as female. So several years ago, she asked me and I I was angry and I lost [01:16:30] my temper and I said, Do it. And she was very excited because she got a tiny child speculum. So I spread my legs as I did many, many times as a child, and she went to try and do this, and she can't. I physically have a body that's not possible. And the shock on her face. What is the model for those of us with these different bodies? How do we keep safe? What? What should our doctors be doing with us? Those of us that, um, [01:17:00] have had hormone treatment, you know what would you What should we be looking out for? We we know a lot of treatment is prophylactic taking away parts of our body because it might develop cancer. But what should we be looking up for? What should our doctors be looking up for? And I agree there's probably enough of us now to, um, start working collaboratively and and go back to to medical people and say we have these different bodies. How do we take care of them [01:17:30] wherever we fit in that gender sexual orientation map? Thank you for your question. Thank you. Um, thanks to both Marie and Kelly, and it seems to me that we have a multitude of sexes and only two genders, and somehow there's AAA. Um, it's it's a bit hard to make it all work. Um, and obviously that has in that conceptualization has, [01:18:00] um, impacts on all of us. And as does the homophobia that, um, has been talked about in this session today. So thank you. Thank you to the speakers and thank you to your, uh, really fabulous questions. And I hope you enjoy the rest of the conference. Thank you.
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