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I'm Shay Ronald from the Human Rights Commission and warm welcome to you today. Thank you for joining our session. This is Nicola Owen from the Auckland Disability Law, and you'll see our fine panel members there who will take turns to introduce themselves. Now we want to keep this session quite informal, and I've checked with all the panel members and we want to make sure that you feel [00:00:30] you can ask anything of them. They've given their time today to be here as a panel of people who are GL BT. I queer whatever Gender variant, whatever, um, definition and identification they give themselves and also experience a disability. It's a rare opportunity to be able to engage with people [00:01:00] who are living and walking in both these worlds. Maybe walking is not appropriate moving in both these worlds. Oh, damn! Already stuffed up. Um, So what we'll do is ask them some questions that they will take turns answering, and then the floor is open and Nicola will be walking around at some point and collecting on piece of paper questions. If you don't feel you can ask them directly. [00:01:30] Otherwise, I think there's a roving mic that will be able to move around. Great two roving mics. That's fantastic. So please feel free. This is your opportunity to have a good conversation. Let's go for it. So first up is Philip and Philip. I just wanted to ask you if you could introduce yourself with a sentence or two, only a sentence or two to describe who you are. So can [00:02:00] I use the No pauses? And then there's some questions I'd just like you to focus on. And the first is about the most important thing you think that people should understand about you. One thing you particularly like about your identity, the one thing you would change about society if you could. And one thing the G LBTT I community could do better to be more inclusive. No, [00:02:30] you can have a few more sentences for that, Um, as on Philip. And when we we did this sort of talking that I think would go on that the white middle class male went first. But, you know, Hey, it's very liberal these days, isn't it? And that probably is. The most interesting thing about my identity [00:03:00] is that I am a white man and I'm gay and disabled. And so where does that put me? In the, you know, power, political spectrum. And so that got me thinking about diversity in a very different way. And a lot of my work is, um, about redefining diversity and re [00:03:30] imagining the way we we think and and sort of, um, I I just manifest diversity in society. So that's kind of what I like about my identity is that, um I don't see myself fitting labelled, um, I wake up every morning and decide that, um, I'm going to have a unique experience [00:04:00] based on my unique function and I for the day as to what? That will, um what That will well bring up for me. So I think that's what I would like to change about Society is our understanding that we're not just a list of labels [00:04:30] describing characteristics categorising ourselves and then trying to represent ourselves equally that actually we are common and we are unique. And wherever we are, whatever we're doing, whoever we are with, we can explore. How are we common and [00:05:00] how we unique. And I believe the world would change if we had more of those conversations. So, um, I can I leave it there? Because it feels like, kind of answered most of the questions of Thank you. Um, we always [00:05:30] have this conversation Philip and I about who can beat the minority status. And, um, I win just by one margin. And that's being Maori, um, and aboriginally as well. So I'm actually able to claim two minority statuses. And, uh So what do I like about my identity? I love I love who I am because I define who I am. I don't let society do that to me anymore. Maybe it's an age thing, I don't know, but, uh, I used to always be worried about what other people thought, Um, being raised a strict Catholic. I was always guilty [00:06:00] with everything I did. But these days I define who I am, and I love who I am. My disability is not a tragedy. It's not something sad. It's actually a part of my political power point sometimes or who I I am as a woman as part of that or me being is a part of that or identifying I don't identify as disabled. I'm not. Society is a thing that is disabled, not me. Attitudes are the things that are disabled, not me. It is, um, I. I identify, as which [00:06:30] simply means someone who is uniquely diverse, very similar to what Philip says, but slightly different because it's Maori, Um, and the talks about the breath and it's the breath of life. But it's more than that. It's actually the, um it's the essence of our experiences of our environment around us. I am that product good or bad. You know what's and all this is who I am and people can take me or leave me for that. I it within my own life every day. Um, I guess what's most important is that the next question or am I [00:07:00] moving on already? Or do I just introduce Ivan first or let Ivan introduce himself? Yeah. No, if you can talk about the most important thing you think people should understand about you, I also have age related memory loss. Now it it's normal. Um, you know my back, I. I do, uh, work with Auckland Disability Law as one of the solicitors. And, um, also, uh, I work on the Human Rights Review Tribunal. I'm also a panel member and a governance, uh, member on several [00:07:30] other committees. Um, what's the most important thing that I think people should understand about me? Don't ever categorise or label me because I have a chair that's quite strong and powerful, And I can accidentally, without any men's rare, which means, without intent, accidentally have an actress raus, which is an act to run you over. So, you know, it could be dangerous. I have a dog. He's not dangerous either. He's a but I can always pretend that he can attack. So, [00:08:00] you know, no, Um, in all seriousness, though, don't label me, OK? One thing I absolutely hate is being labelled that woman who's bound to a wheelchair. You know, I'm not into the B DS M. If I was, it wouldn't be a problem. But I'm not. So you know, I'd rather just be labelled one label or doctor who, because that is my nickname. I only got my doctorate so I could be called doctor who, but, um, and it's true. I did, um, but, you know, I did, um but, you know, don't people ask [00:08:30] me who I am and how I want to be identified. Don't assume an identity on me. I am as as as anyone in this room. OK, I'm no more or less. I have a sexual identity. Allow me to be sexually identifying. Don't put me in the asexuals category. I might be old. I might not be having sex anymore. Who knows? So you have to ask the wife that one. But, um, you know, and she's not gonna tell. It's a no tell policy, but, uh, you know, it's it's really true [00:09:00] that we want to be as part of the community, and that's important as our inclusion. Change the attitudes around yourselves and those around you, and what you'll find is you'll find a community that's more inclusive. And I just asked for us to be included as much, if not more. Thank you. Didn't really know what to say after hearing what they say. Um, my name is Ivan, and, um, I am originally [00:09:30] from Malaysia, Malaysian, Chinese, and, um, I came from Auckland this morning. Uh, and why I'm sitting on this panel is not because I'm Asian, you know, Asian is not a disability. This is a colour. The reason why I'm sitting here is because III I experience mental illness. And so that is one of the category. I think people kind of quite often forgotten about [00:10:00] it. Um, and what do I like about my identity? I think it's quite handy because I like to introduce myself as a gay, crazy Asian, Um, which is again, in itself, quite unique. Um, and the beauty, the beauty of it is, you know, like, if the community needs someone who's gay, and then I can go and do some work with them and the community want someone who's Asian and then, you know, like I can doing some work with them again and [00:10:30] it's the community want someone who has experiment I Then again, it's me, you know? So I always in all different. In the end, I didn't get to eat any of them. Um, So what? One of the things people should understand about me is, um, I. I think we all can identify, uh, it a struggle when you have to come out and tell people that you are gay. And just lately, uh, one of my colleague, uh, [00:11:00] write a book about him, um, as a gay man, um, decided to come out second time about his own experience of bipolar. Um, and I think that is true. Um, and from my experience, um, I think many of other people can relate to probably I making assumptions. Um, And for that reason, sometimes it's not necessarily that you have to tell people, you know, [00:11:30] like I have this experience, but on the other hand, it can be quite tough, especially when you have a very bubbly personality and people just assuming that you can take everything as who you are. But actually, I am a very fragile and sensitive flower. He is, He is. So it's a joke. But on on a on a stronger, not stronger on a more serious, uh, what I really [00:12:00] like the society to change. Just this morning I came in and the taxi drivers start having a conversation with me. And then he was talking about his Children and then he asking me, you know, like so you married? I say, Yeah. And then he also said that. So are you going to have a kid? I was just thinking, you know, like, when is when is the time going to be easy? We don't have to say. Actually, my partner is a man, so being pregnant might be a tricky issue to one of us. Um, you [00:12:30] know, but that that's reality. That's what I'm hoping for. One day we don't have to define or even just can see, beyond our colours, our sexual identity, our able disabled body. But just acknowledge that we are first and foremost human first, and we just want the same thing. To be loved, to be accepted and to be part of the wider community and society. Where's where's where's my [00:13:00] hello? Not like we competitive. So I think we'll just open up, um, to any questions at this point. Has anyone got any questions they'd like to ask of the panel? Anything I was told. Nothing is off limits. Apart from knowing if Phillips a top or a bottom, that's the [00:13:30] only thing you cannot ask. It limits it and this. Oh, Nicholas's got a piece of paper and a pen, so feel free to write any questions down. This is when we have a musical interlude so that I could tell a story last night, which was quite interesting. It's not really disability related, but I think it does. Um, [00:14:00] the begin our conversation of change in our community. I went to, um, a bar where Thorn and others were playing. Who was the new one there? Yeah. So the woman phone me then and I was invited by a woman, the woman who was been seeing. And, um, when we got there, we were told we couldn't [00:14:30] come in because we were men. And, um, I sort of played with it and said, Well, but how do you know? I said we might be transitioning, You know, I'm Andy and, um, and you know, and And we joked and we played with that and discussed Well, how would you know? And and and the woman on the door said, Well, I just [00:15:00] will be making an assumption. And, you know, if if I even if you did insist that you were, um, transitioning. And, um So we sat outside, um, which was ok. And and the drinks were brought out to us, which was moon night and and slowly a group of women began [00:15:30] sitting with us. And when by the end of the night, there was probably about eight or nine of us sitting outside, um, the venue. And what we realised was that that group of PE people were, um, myself being disabled or uniquely functioning. Um, my boyfriend, who's a A parent, [00:16:00] Um, and a couple of other women who are both parents. Um, a woman doing a PhD on something about how we are online and and sort of we spent through 45 minutes. Um um, you know, discussing the the the weirdness of of Of And, um, you know, the uniqueness [00:16:30] of of Emily, um, study. And it was just interesting because we were, like, the fringe of the fringe. And and it sort of brings up to for me is what is the conversation that we need to have in our community about where we are now [00:17:00] compared to where we come from and and do we need to say, this is women's on women only. And men can't come. Or is there a new space of Well, this is a woman's event, and, um, you you have to be invited by a woman. You know, if you're a man or something like that, I don't know, but I thought [00:17:30] I would tell the story to fill the gap because I was feeling terribly uncomfortable, I, I guess you know, for me that that resonates because being there's a sense of inclusion a lot more in a lot of areas, you know, uh, is a word of inclusion as well. You know, I So and I we get on really well with with our with our our our men, our women, um, and those who are transitioning don't [00:18:00] really you know, it. It's not a it's not an issue. Um, and I I thought about it, and I'm probably gonna get ostracised. But I remember when the lesbian elders village first came out, I had an issue around. Well, access. Um, but the other issue there was. Well, what if my son wanted to come and visit? Or my sons? What if I had grandsons? What if I wanted to have my men friends around in my life? Are they going to be ostracised because they're mean? If I want them to stay over the fact that I have a close relationship with a lot of men in my life, Does that mean [00:18:30] that I'm less a lesbian? You know, I don't know. And and I, I would have to say I resonate with Philip because I don't understand. I mean, I used to see the value of it, but I don't I don't know if it exists or should exist anymore. When we go to to events, I can't get to the events because, um, if they're too far away because the buses are cheap, but they're not accessible. But, um, when my mate went to the last one, she found it really fantastic because it was, you know, the men and the women. The men looked after her. The queens looked after her. [00:19:00] They looked after her beautifully. And I'd have to say that there was no, um, thing there I, I guess from what the feedback was around around gender as such, it was men and women either celebrating that they were as a community. And I'm not so sure that the G LBTT i community and I mean you get it with that word with the with the an Aron in itself has actually understood that yet. And I don't know if we're really there as a community. But maybe we need to ask the question because I want more inclusion. I don't like the female. [00:19:30] Only because I like to go out, like with my mate Philip. If I can't take him to where I like to go and if I can't take Ivan, well, then I'm really stuffed, aren't I? Because, you know, if I can't take my mates, who can I take? And where can I go where I feel? Welcome. I go to the gay bars because I'm more welcome there with the men than I'm actually welcome with the woman. If I'm to bring my men friends Mm. Thanks for that. [00:20:00] I and I just wondered if I could ask you something. Um, we heard yesterday. And some of us already were aware that the in 1973 the, um, homosexuality was removed from the DS M four in relation to diagnosis of mental illness. And I wondered if you could talk to us a little bit about, um, what we could be doing to support queer people who experience mental health issues. I. I think the first thing is, we really need to talk about it because according [00:20:30] to the statistics, there's a lot of people who I mean, like in our community, are most likely to either have drugs or alcohol issue and committing suicide. Um, and I mean talk about not in terms of talking about, um, issue of suicide, but talking about from a more inclusive, um, environment. Um, there's there's there's things that I realised that I often met new [00:21:00] friends who's gay or lesbian. But in in some stage of the conversations, someone would somehow mention about, you know, the experiment, illness or or taking certain medications. Um, I mean, of course, we don't want to assume that that is what everybody is experiencing. However, if we don't normalise, not minimising, normalise the situations. If we don't [00:21:30] acknowledge that to our own peer, it is tough when you're being educated in a men's society, how you should be, behave, how you should walk or talk. And it's tough to find a place where you can come to a place where you know who you are as a person, and that knowledge need to pass on to our future generations. That kind of message need to be [00:22:00] conveyed to people because of not about the sexual orientation is life can be much easier to anyone else, um, and and the discussions should not just in our community. It should go out wider community. And I believe until that happened, then we can see younger generations who came [00:22:30] through and realise who they are is going to have much easier time. Um, so they look what I see. Thanks, Ivan. We've got some questions just to point on, um, DS M. Um, first off, it's not completely gone. Um, in the, um, edition, following the 1972 73 action, uh, DS M replaced, um, the section on homosexuality with a diagnosis of [00:23:00] ego on homosexuality, um, which was about people who were unhappy about being gay when they were challenged about that and said, Why isn't their ego dystonic heterosexuality? The answer was that if anyone was unhappy about about being straight, that was psychotic. So they had that one, and it's still there. And, um, sexual disorder not otherwise specified. And that's about working with people who are having difficulty with coming to terms with sexual orientation. [00:23:30] So that's still present in DS M four. And I expect it will be there in DS M five. When it comes out. God only knows when that will be, but we still I mean, there was an argument yesterday about removing DS M. I think that's a great idea, but unfortunately, all our funding is based on it in the United States. Of course, with third party insurers purchase treatment options, they base it on DS M. So we need something else. [00:24:00] It is Indeed it is the best money maker on the planet. The American Psychiatric Association, uh, puts out new additions every few years, and every, uh, desk in the world, Uh, and mental health has to have a new copy. And at about 100 and 30 100 and $50 a copy. They're making a little bundle, but yeah, Um, aside from that, I and I've got a question for you. I've worked in acute mental health now for about 18 years, [00:24:30] and in my experience, well, certainly in the unit I've worked in, there hasn't been a single week where we haven't had, um a person in our unit who isn't experiencing some kind of blood fab issue. So the whole gay, lesbian, intersex transgender, um, and bisexual, and so the whole sexual, um, uh, issue range is presented every week, [00:25:00] and I'm wondering you as as a consumer. How What kind of challenges would you put to the mental health services in improving service delivery to same sex oriented consumers? I, I mean I mean, it's a very big job, isn't it? Because I only one person. So spare me, please. Sorry. Sorry. II. I don't know whether you are aware of currently. Um, are you from Auckland or [00:25:30] No, I'm sorry. Ok, sorry. No, don't be sorry. As long as like a joke. Sorry. I'm very sorry. Um, currently in Auckland. Uh, there's a new project that being developed, uh, which is, uh, run by outline. Um, anyone from our Yeah, you're aware of that day. So that is the first steps. I mean, like, I. I really can't speak. [00:26:00] Um, that that's another thing. You know, when it comes to the term consumer. I mean, I never really used the mental health services as such. I only use my body GP who give me a bloody good pill and a bloody happy I said I. I can't really, you know, like, say much And and I really felt that I'm inadequate to answer those questions. But I, I can only say that it is only now because of the discussions from [00:26:30] the Rainbow Conference happened, Um, last year, was it? Yeah. And then people start talking about we need to improve the services and really thinking about how we can raise more, um, profile about, you know, like how the mainstream mental health systems can be more efficiently address those issues, however, because I am the consumer and not too many crazy [00:27:00] consumer and gay. So they've been asking me to join the online project as part of the group. So I am just being invited, and I accepted that. So if you want to have a discussion with me after that and then even you're not from Auckland, but it will be very, very good to have that kind of connections and even, you know that we can exchange information. How does that sound? That sounds very cool. Thank you. All right, next question. [00:27:30] Oh, man and sideline organisation. Thank you. The issue that you raise it is the next step or the next place, and and I'm thinking it's outside of all kinds of construction. So it's not just the binary gender like, where do we go next? And are we going to accept society's definitions of health [00:28:00] and that there's something wrong with this or or as you did in that that place. That's beyond all that where we really start thinking creatively about where we want to go as humans. And maybe we get to a place that we're starting to think about, of us as people and looking at our spirit and our heart rather than those things that divide and separate us. Of course, we've still got to look at those other issues, but I I'm saddened that sometimes our community, um, [00:28:30] is actually more bigoted and separating those within us that don't belong to the dominant narrative. So thank you for raising that. And I, I always think in terms of you know what, what set and what limits And and of course, everything does both. And so, you know, I was saying that night I had the deepest [00:29:00] speech for, um, the fact that, um, sometimes you need to be in a space which you feel safe and and and you're not going to be invaded by somebody that represents something that's not safe. And, um and so it's, uh it's the dialectic. The paradox that that we live [00:29:30] and that that everything is. And this is and, you know, um but but within that, we need to keep talking. And and I think what happens is that instead of seeing a a community like this is just a place of conversation and inspiration, [00:30:00] and we sort of come to this point where we go, right? That I don't know, man. Um, you know, that's the answer. That's how it's going to be. And then suddenly the the conversation stops because we found the answer. And then five years later, or 10 years later, suddenly we realised [00:30:30] this is not working anymore. And then it's a big upheaval to begin the conversation again and and, you know, and what are we gonna do with the last conversation? And so if we can be more aware that the talking has to go on on on on, never stop and be contradictory and confusing [00:31:00] and and and uncertain and uncomfortable, um, I think we would. It will be harder and easier for us to to keep evolving and and developing who who we are. Thanks, Philip, I think. Was there a question at the back there? Yeah, um, thanks. I didn't hear the presentation. I'm [00:31:30] sorry I was attending to my parenting responsibilities, but I did want to acknowledge the conversation that's been raised because I think it's a really important one about how we continue to have conversations amongst each other about, um, places and spaces. And I know that, you know, when I when I saw the conference programme and I saw a you know, women's party and a men's party and then a mix party and I thought, What the fuck does that mean? You know, I respect, you know, I, I love [00:32:00] the conference. I pay my respects to the organisers. You know, this is not a criticism as such, but just, I guess joining this conversation about what are our shared places and and, you know, I, I think for me. And this would be true, I'm sure for many here, you know, my, um, I think for me it's about allowing ourselves to grow in our communities, and and it's about sustainability in terms of our health and our well being. And I say that because in my earlier life, women's only space was absolutely [00:32:30] vital and critical to me and I'm sure it remains so for many women. Um, but over the course of my life, much has changed, you know, And in that change, I've changed. So, you know, I stopped identifying as a lesbian when when my partner transitioned, I no longer felt that that was an appropriate label for me, you know? Then you know, and so on and so forth, you know, and I had Children, and the spaces became less accessible for those reasons. And you know, all of those sorts of things. So I think for me, [00:33:00] I would like us to keep seeking places that feel like we can have those conversations. Because what I observe in my own life is that I'm choosing to be with people who want to have those conversations with me. Um, we don't have. And I loved your point about ready answers. You know, I don't want to be at a place where it's all sorted, you know, I want to be at a place where it is unclear, and we are still trying to work it out. And we can talk with each other about what feels right and what doesn't you know and and have those [00:33:30] difficult conversations. And for me, that's when I feel energised within my community is when I can be talking with the people I I love and care about. And some I don't about, uh, how we are together. So thank you, all of you for for raising the conversation. And I hope that, um it is something we can keep talking about because for me, that's the community. I want to be in Kilda. Can I, um Can I just, you know, ask a challenge? I guess [00:34:00] in a way, as I, I know what you mean about women's space being vital. It was for me when I when I was going through stuff myself. And then I ended up having a son and I was at university, and it was a woman's only space. And he turned six. And heaven forbid that I took him in there, and yet it was the only place that was comfortable that I could get into. Although it wasn't accessible for disabled women, so they were excluded anyway. Um, and at that time, I was on my six. And, um you know, over the years, [00:34:30] I began to realise how stupid all of this was yes, it's important. We have safe spaces. But you know, there are men out there that need safe spaces, too. It wasn't a gender thing, and I discovered that there were, um, men and women out there that were equally hurting in many ways that needed ears of a person with whatever gender they were. And it wasn't so much being with other women because I suddenly had to find myself in other spaces. And it became hugely O eye opening for me because as my son [00:35:00] was growing, um, and his needs grew and he became a teenager who was coming out himself as a young gay man who was going through mental health issues had to go through youth mental health again, another space I had to suddenly come to terms with. And as you I guess, as you grow, your spaces change. And you know, for me, the gender of the person became less vital as to who I felt safe with. It was the person the person first, it didn't matter that they were either disabled that term. I hate and, [00:35:30] um because it implies the opposite of ability, and that is certainly not what any of us here have. And, um, you know, or whether you were a woman or a man old or young, whether you were transitioning or not, it didn't matter at all to me what your belief systems were Except fundamentalist Christians. I think I had drew the line at, um, I. I was known for having open fights with destiny Church people on campus. Um, but that was only because they harassed me first. Um, yeah, yeah, they Yeah, I still [00:36:00] said I loved them, but I just didn't like the belief system. Um, but, you know, there was all those things, but the challenge here today is we're sitting here because we can, but where is the conversation with our deaf queer community? G LBTT I community. I don't know what to call, but with our deaf community who identifies as being part of our Where are they? They are actually not small in number. We know quite a few in Auckland. They have them here in Wellington. Where are they? And where is their language? [00:36:30] Where is it? Here. You know, the the problem we've got is we're saying that we're opening the door up that we're in a oppressed community. But then we turn around and we inadvertently start oppressing others, you know, and And it might be fun to say, Yeah, I'm Maori. I'm disabled. I'm I'm, uh I'm you know, I'm a parent. All those labels, but at the same time, there's still an exclusion going on, and it saddens me that we still exclude [00:37:00] at the expense of some of our own, so I just really want want people. I just want people to think about that, because if you're going to to clubbings and all that, I mean, I often got attacked by lesbians. Uh, you know, maybe it was because I was gorgeous and I was threatening them. But, um um, but they always had the meetings at the top of of building, you know, on second floors or top of buildings to me. You know, maybe there was a message for me. They didn't want me in their community. But, um, and you know, the other thing There, too, is [00:37:30] the lesbian community turned its back on caregiving a few years ago, and it was around the fact that they did not want to be labelled in a in a. Not that they turned their back. They did not want to be labelled. One of the issues that came up was the issue of being a partner of a disabled woman and then being seen as their caregiver. People assume my partner is not my wife, but she's my support person. She's all that. But she's not my caregiver. And people need to get [00:38:00] over the assumptions they have about our community. Just just I. I lay that. Yeah, I know. That's heavy. I'm the bad cop today. I told Philip I would be. He likes to put the nice feely stuff on. I like to put the heavy shit down. So I guess it's a lawyer in me. Really? I, I can't help it. I just wanna, you know, lay something down heavy. But, you know, I mean, and what about it? If one of our community identifies and I do, I'm mad at times and that label is a real label. I suffer from chronic depression and I go down [00:38:30] quite fast without warning. And, uh, my boss who's sitting here, uh, although she's on, uh, she's on leave from us at the moment. She needs breaks for me quite regularly. Um, but, you know, they know, and they support me, And, uh, being mad and being physically disabled is is a huge issue. Um, but having the support and understanding is important, but our community hasn't often shown itself to be that supportive. And yet we're not small in number in a lot of areas. So, you know, just lay that there. [00:39:00] And hey, we have sex too. You know, you can ask sex questions. How do you do? Oh, here we go. Here we go. That's a common question, guys. It's really quite funny. One. I don't need to answer that. Apparently, I might upset people. Yeah, that could sound like a great shift. Um, but I really love that, um, term uniquely functioning body. And, you know, I think it's it's just such a liberating [00:39:30] way of talking. And yeah, I guess I was just thinking about how, um, sexuality and how how bodies, I guess, are represented in terms of kind of how dominant culture represents sexuality. So only people who are, um, looking at, uh, particular ways kind of are sexual, but can often often seem, I guess [00:40:00] And and I mean, that's sexuality in general, not just queer sexualities. Um, I was just really wondering whether you I think it's changing in terms of maybe like young people with, um, particularly precious, uniquely functioning bodies. Um, as as they, um you know, coming through teams and so forth. Do they [00:40:30] these days feel that there is more kind of scope to be a sexual person? Um, you know, expectation. Just those expectations of being sexual, having partners being out of That's their thing. Um, just yeah, really, really interested to know? Because I guess I often look around and think, man, have have we experienced feminism? Uh, really. [00:41:00] So much of what we see, um, in our dominant kind of representations of sexuality are incredibly narrow. Not really that much of a question about sex, but maybe you could answer about sex. We probably should have put things in the programme that, um I think in terms [00:41:30] of the change, if you change, I'd say yes and no, um, I, I think there are younger people who you know, I. I just emerging as more confident than having, um you know, more openness and and feeling stronger to just sort of rock [00:42:00] up places and to people and say Here I am, you know, take me as I am both literally and you know, And um um I just wrote a chapter in a book that's about to come out called Why are faggots so Afraid of faggots? And it's being, um, edited by a wonderful [00:42:30] American Trans activist called um Matilda Bernstein, which tries to think of the best name in the world. Um, and her interest is about the fear that that that gay men especially have of gay men. And so, um, she [00:43:00] asked a group of disabled gay men and contribute, and I think I ended up being the only one that was available to do do it and what what I ended up talking about was, firstly, my experience of the fear of that I perceived in gay men to to just go there with me, you know, [00:43:30] like to to be open enough to have the conversation about, you know, what does it mean to be with someone who has a uniquely functioning body, both both in the social context, the sexual content, the the relationship context, you know, and and what sort of came down to is [00:44:00] that that impairment disability, unique function or you want to call it just makes very plain the need for us to work on connection with each other, you know? And I think something that that the the the queer So I don't have to [00:44:30] recite all the the letters because I get them a bit that although I started using the word fluid because I think I think we need to start thinking in terms of our fluidity that that we change. You know, Di diversity is almost the old hat these days. The nineties, you know, and And what's the conversation [00:45:00] about fluidity, You know, being something one day and completely different than that, you know, how do we how do we do that? But But what we actually have to do is is connect, and the way that we connect is being vulnerable, you know, And again, vulnerability is something that that we shy away from. We [00:45:30] we deny our vulnerability. We we move people aside when they are seen has been too vulnerable. You know, we we put them in institutions. We put them in rehab units. We put them in mental health services. Um, those those places are not in the, you know, they're not outside, you know. They're not shops [00:46:00] within within our usual villages. Their place is quite secret because we don't want to acknowledge our vulnerability because it's uncertain, uncomfortable and, uh and scary. And so I think what what we offer as a representation of, you [00:46:30] know, whatever uniqueness we're talking about is the opportunity to explore vulnerability and connection because we can't not do it and you know it. The the the queer Community has has almost gone the other way from from being so vulnerable [00:47:00] that you could be could be a lot to and and and, you know, I need to deal with being violent, natural thing we we've almost developed, I think a a veneer of, of of I know sort of toughness and and that hired that vulnerability. [00:47:30] And maybe again, the conversation is how do we rediscover our vulnerability in a very different world than 2030 40 50 years ago? Hm? Another question at the back. A comment [00:48:00] to follow from the point about vulnerability and our ability to engage, Um, I work in a in a human rights organisation and um, a queer human rights organisation. And, um, there was a situation recently where one of our number was clearly unwell or vulnerable in terms of his mental health. And what astonished me was the way way in which the organisation sought to sanction him for his behaviour [00:48:30] and the difficulty that, uh, as a collective we had in simply having a conversation with him about what was happening for him and what support he might require. And, uh, and it really went to your point exactly. Which was that this is an organisation that ostensibly is predicated on respect for right and engagement. And yet there was zero, appreciation or understanding of [00:49:00] his health or our own understanding of those issues. And it sort of brought home to me, I guess, because professionally, I work in mental health also, you know, but it it it brought home to me just how poorly equipped as a community we are to have the sort of conversations we need to be having with each other about, uh, our well being, you know, and caring for each other. And, uh, I don't want to pro problem him. I want to talk about everybody else and and their [00:49:30] absolute inability to literally have a conversation and I. I found it quite, um, shocking, actually, I I was profoundly I. I suppose I wasn't surprised, but I was shocked. And I was, uh I think I took away from that. This is very recent a view that, um we're poorly equipped as a community in so many ways to engage with each other around what our needs are, Um, and my interest, I guess now [00:50:00] is in, uh, rather than problems others and making others states of being the issue. What I actually want to talk about, as as people who perceive themselves to be well and strong and capable And that veneer that you talk about about Well, what What are what are those people doing then? What does community mean? Um, I, I won't use the term us cos I don't want to think of myself in that that way. But I'm sure I have all those attributes as well. I think, um, what people fail to recognise is [00:50:30] that there is actually a convention out there. It's called the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. And it's very easy to try and ignore. And now I was involved in the development of it, ensuring that indigenous peoples, uh, got a voice. The actual queer community, or whatever we want to call it internationally did not actually have a voice. There were many of us involved, but we haven't got any specific protections within that convention which angered me a little bit because I was told not to bring it up because [00:51:00] they wanted to close it the same as with the indigenous. We were told our article would be rejected. They wanted to get it done by 2007. It was done. Now, um, amendments are currently being mooted. Um, there is actually a book coming out. Yes, I've got a book chapter coming out, too. Um, actually, I've got two, but I won't brag. Um, and meaning, um, but we're not in competition with each other. We love each other. We've known each other Well, I hope we do. Um, [00:51:30] maybe I I again, I'm in fantasy. Like I was with the woman that had the meetings upstairs. Um, but one of the things that they need to recognise is they cannot problem anymore. that there is a right to work. There is a right to protections whether you identify with a with a mental health condition, whatever you want to call it, whatever mad, any identity, um, employers are gonna have they actually not going to. They have an obligation now to understand. It's not that they got to have [00:52:00] an understand they do have to have it. But New Zealand ratified without reservation, which means that, uh, basically they must comply with the UN CRPD. So I just want to put that there that it's we also, for the first time ever in the world, under any convention that the UN has developed is the right to sexual and reproductive health as well. So disabled woman know exactly what it's like to be ignored or to be sterilised or be told that you're asexuals. I mean, [00:52:30] the minute my disability came into play, the doctor said, Well, then that's over for you, isn't it? Basically, that was it. You were asexuals. I could go and be a lesbian because they they didn't consider it. It was under the radar, But so long as I wasn't having sex, you know, it was fine. because it wasn't real sex anyway. Um, but, you know, it was asexuals and, um, you know, it was it was an appalling way. I mean, I experienced the same form of sterilisation that many other disabled women experienced and, uh, discovered that doctors had lied just to have that sterilisation [00:53:00] occur. And that's not uncommon with disabled women in New Zealand. As much as it, it was legal. One time it's not now, so they find other ways to do it. And so the that issue of reproduction, the loss of reproduction. Even though I didn't want sex with men, it meant that, you know, anymore, I wanted I you know, I may have wanted another child for my sons, but I thank God because it was pretty rough having them anyway. But, um beautiful. I love them, but it was rough. Um, but, you know, the whole aspect of rights [00:53:30] is as disabled people, we have the right to our sexual identity. It's not specifically in there, but we have the right to being who we are. And if your employers, um, are going to give someone a hard time because they're becoming mentally unwell, they have a responsibility to make help that person through their unwellness to help them towards recovery or going into wellness again. Because, uh, Article 12 is the article on legal capacity. But there's also the articles around the rights to being who we are. So, you know, um, [00:54:00] let's look that up simply because we're located within within some kind of queer agency or a human rights agency or even a mental health service. Um, doesn't exclude us from, I guess, bigotry. We are just as likely to be racist, sexist, even homophobic. Um, and certainly ableist. Um I mean, recently, I've been working with it with the young guy within our own local community in Palmerston North who has [00:54:30] an intellectual disability and is being excluded. Left, right, and centre. Jeered at, um, basically refused any kind of supports. And the young guy has no idea. It's even going on. But people are just doing it. It's just vile. And, um, all you can do is speak up about it and challenge the abusers and call it what it is. You know, let's stop being polite about this. You can be tactful, but you don't have to be polite. [00:55:00] This is not a polite business. And when I see people with mental mental health conditions um being rejected or joked about, I just it just breaks my heart. Really, It's sick, Um, and having experienced racism and ableism in my own community for myself, Um, and even from health care providers, I had, um I have a severe vision disability, and, um, my eye specialist asked me if I was gay because of it. [00:55:30] You're going blind. And I asked, Well, I asked her, What do you think? I can't see what gender someone is until I'm like, an inch away and then it's too late. Um, and she said, No, no. Do you think it just narrowed down your options? And I asked her, Was she an idiot? They are. I mean, it's ignorance, but it exists in all communities. I mean, the disability community is just as racist and sexist [00:56:00] and in every other way, and the same with the Maori community can be as well and in the community, you know, we all have it within our communities. We have the duty of challenging and and can I add something because when you talk to, you know, like preach this. That's my taste. I working as a like mice like mice, project worker with Mental Health Foundation. So and and honestly, you know, like the study has shown, we all human beings have an innate ability to judge [00:56:30] even from the infants, you know, like they they they prefer white baby and blue eyes and all that instead of, you know, colours. And the only things that I always thinking is even myself. We are driving in a motorway and there's an Asian driver I was or or someone drives really slowly. And then when I drive past, I ask my partner, Is it asian? Is it Asian? And And I think it's OK to judge, but it's just also at the same time having that ability to step back and [00:57:00] say, Yeah, you know, like and and take a little bit more time to get to know the person, and I know we are going to finish. I really want to say this. I don't know why. Suddenly I just have to urge. I know a lady, a very beautiful lady. Her name is, um, talk. And, um, he taught me one things that resonate with me forever, which is everyone coming into her life. She always value [00:57:30] individual and look at the person as a person. And she just make you feel so welcome and she really care. And she really take that extra steps just to show you that she really care. And that really does make the difference. If you really want to change are really all for changing a better world. We have all the legislations we have all the law, all the act. But if we always believe there is somebody else job, we will never [00:58:00] change until unless we we work on that a little bit more extra and willing to take their steps to care about the people who sit next to us. Killed do that. I then to that one. I think that's a fitting end. Um, unless any of the other panellists would like to add anything. Can I tell you one more thing? [00:58:30] There's a really good book by I think Peter Block, um, about social change. It's called The Answer to Hell. It's yes, and, um, I've actually read it up because it's on my bookshelf waiting to be read. But my understanding is that often when we want to make change, we spend ages going. [00:59:00] How do we do this? And there's a very different space that we can go into when we go. We're going to do this, you know? So it's not how when someone says Can you include me? The answer is yes, of course. And then where do we go? [00:59:30] And I think the other thing is that we talk a lot about attitudes and the change. It's about changing attitudes. Um, it's not. It's about changing behaviour. We can all have the best bloody attitudes in the world. But until we do things differently, [01:00:00] we won't change. And it's not even just about doing things differently. It's what are the vital behaviours that we need to adopt to make change. And I didn't find those vital vital behaviours to make change. What are they? Come on. Yeah, I miss my I need to. [01:00:30] We all do. She was a good friend to us all. Shoulder killed her. So thank you, U three. Um, that's been profound. It's been fascinating. I think it's opened our eyes and we really appreciate your openness and your honesty and the gift of your experience. and knowledge and what you've given us today. So thank [01:01:00] you. Very well. It's like And now we, um and thank you to everybody who has participated in this dialogue too. Actually. Quiet. Especially. Sorry. I've got some resources here, Um, about the sexuality and rights, disability, sexuality and rights and women, I think. And sexuality and rights. There are three DVD S and some resources here. Woman [01:01:30] disabled queer that came to me this morning. Um, that I could hand out if you're interested to help yourself.
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