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Welcome to the movie night or film evening at the Human Rights Conference. And it's good to see so many of you here. Um, it's always difficult with all these clashes and the dinner and everything else. So it's splendid, but quite a few of you decided you needed to see these films, and you are absolutely right. Um, the way the evening is working which some of you may not know, depending on on how you've, [00:00:30] um whether how much you've read the programme. Uh, it has changed slightly from what it was going to be originally, but I think most of you have got the right thing. We've got We're involved with two movies. Um, we're only seeing one in entirety and we're going to be tantalised on the other by and we're going to be able to see it on the Web in about two months time, which is wonderful. So, um, from half past 7 to 8, we're with grace poor who I'm going to welcome to the podium in a moment. And, uh, she is one of the major, [00:01:00] um, contributors, instigators, organisers, and everything else with courage unfolds, which is our first half hour and, um, we're going to hear from grace, show a four minute trailer and then have a Q and a for and that will take us till around eight o'clock or a minute or so after, since we're a minute or two late, depending on how many questions you've got. And then we move on to, um, assume [00:01:30] nothing where Kirsty McDonald and Rebecca Swan we are lucky enough to have both of them here, and we also have two others who have been intimately involved with the project. Marie Mitchell and Jack Byrne are also here, and, um, can be part of the Q and a, um, later on and they're going. Rebecca and Kirsty are going to introduce that film, which is about 54 56 minutes. We'll we'll show that film, and then we'll have a Q and A on that and that will take us to somewhere [00:02:00] in the region of 9 30. But it's not a strict finishing time, so that's the That's the shape of the evening. And, uh, I'll say more about assume nothing later, but we'll start with courage. Unfolds, which is, um, a film, a very brave film seeking to educate communities, mainly in Asia, about how and why the yoga Carta principles need to be used to promote human rights and protect people from violence and discrimination on the basis of their sexual orientation, gender identity [00:02:30] or gender expression. I'll leave Grace to talk far more about it, but I will say a little bit about Grace, who is, of course, a splendid woman. And, uh, she's a Malaysian activist who's been working to end domestic violence and child sexual abuse for over 20 years, has been a principal researcher on a study conducted by the San Francisco based National Asia and Pacific Islands Domestic Violence Institute, um on domestic violence related [00:03:00] homicides in API communities in the States. She's written and directed and produced documentaries that have been screened in 18 countries. As a filmmaker, she's focused on producing work on issues of gender violence and grassroots politics. She's had awards for her anti violence work and for her documentaries. She's a graduate of Syracuse University's School of Communications, and she's heavily involved in this movie. Let's hear from and welcome grace. [00:03:30] Podiums always make me uncomfortable, for, um, I want to give a little bit of introduction uh, to this film. I also want to apologise for the fact that we're not showing the full rough cut that I had planned to show. Uh, the full video will be 30 minutes long. Um, but unfortunately, [00:04:00] there was some group footage in the video for which we are still waiting for permission from people, and so we don't feel that without their permission, it's safe to show, um, the rough cut. So that's why we are showing the trailer. Um, December 10th is the day that, um, human rights is celebrated. It's the day that, um, human rights community observes, um, International [00:04:30] Human Rights Day. And in 2008, it was the anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Um, now, December 10th is also the last day of 16 days of activism, and I assume that most of you know and are familiar with 16 days of activism. It's a campaign. It's celebrated. It's observed, um, every year around the world. It started in 1991 was initiated [00:05:00] by the Centre for Women's Global Leadership, and the focus of that the 16 days of activism is to challenge and end violence against women. So given the confluence of these two things in 2008, that December 10th was the day that the 60th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was going to be celebrated and that it was the last day of 16 days of activism for that year. [00:05:30] Uh, my colleague and I Cristobal uh, both of whom we work for the Asia Programme of the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission. We thought it would be a very good idea to find a way to create a visual statement, a visual reminder to women's groups in the API region that when they do their 16 days of activism activities, they must include lesbians, bisexuals and transgender [00:06:00] people. Because very often, L BT people are invisible in 16 days of activism in many countries. We also wanted to send a visual statement to the human rights community that when they were celebrating the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, they needed to include and definitely recognise sexual orientation and gender identity as integral to selfhood and that that needed to be included. So, um, [00:06:30] we called a Skype meeting. Thank goodness for Skype. What would we do without it? So we we We convened a Skype meeting with countries with about maybe 13 countries in Asia, and we brainstormed and what would be a good way to create a visual statement? And the idea that came was that we would create a travelling banner that a banner made up of panels of fabric from all over Asia and that each, uh, panel of fabric [00:07:00] would capture a message from an LGL BT group in a country in Asia And a message, um, that was meaningful to them. And that Eagle would then commission a seamstress to assemble all of these panels of fabric into a banner and that the banner would travel through different Asian countries. Um, now, there were some challenges with having the banner travel to different countries [00:07:30] because some countries couldn't host the banner there. They couldn't get police permits. Um, there was a risk that the media might get hold of the information and publicise it, which would create problems. Um, so and there were financial restrictions about getting the banner. So given those considerations, three countries came forward Thailand, Indonesia and the Philippines. So the banner began its travel on, um, in, [00:08:00] uh, in November, in Bangkok, Thailand, for sexual diversity day. I believe it was November 29th and then from there it travelled to Manila for in December for pride Manila Pride and then from Manila. It travelled to Yogyakarta, Indonesia, where which was the last day, December 10th. And it was very appropriate that the banner ended its journey in Yogyakarta because that's where the Yogyakarta principles were developed [00:08:30] and it was launched there with local events in Yogyakarta. So you'll see some of this footage that that a video team followed the banner and interviewed activists in the different countries where the banner travelled. You will see some of that footage in the trailer. Um, this trailer will be released in a couple of weeks on YouTube. It's going to be the beginning of a prelaunch for a campaign that we are calling [00:09:00] the courage unfolds campaign. So far I think 14 countries excluding New Zealand and Australia. So I'm hoping that you all will join the campaign. 14 countries in Asia have are going to join Eagle in this campaign, and what the campaign involves is how to build activities around launching of this video in their countries with a campaign that is either going to push for anti [00:09:30] discrimination legislation that's going to somehow find a way to to get to, to make the job Jakarta principles. Um, activist friendly, uh, unpack it for the public, uh, make it relevant to local struggles for LGBT rights, and I can talk more about the campaign later. But, um, I think that's the only, um, intro. You know, I think that would be sufficient. We just We'll just watch the [00:10:00] trailer now. We're now going to move straight into Q and a We've got a couple of, um, roving mics. Gavin's got one of them as Carol got the other, we're all done. So just [00:10:30] Grace, that's just, um, you know, really enticing. And we we all want to see the rest of it. Um, you put out that, you know, challenge at the beginning, like it would be wonderful to have people from and from Australia to be part of the activism around the launch. So if we want to be, what's the the best way for us to get involved is there, you know, and I know that you're very busy. So So it doesn't put all the burden on you. Is there a website we can look at or what? [00:11:00] Yes, we will have, uh one way is to to put your name on a sign up sheet, so maybe we could have a sign up sheet tonight. Um, and I collected some names yesterday from the workshop. Um, we will send you information. Uh, the other way is that within the next two weeks, once the trailer goes on youtube, um, there will also be a widget. I think people know what that means. Uh, yes. No. Ok, well, anyway, it's a tool. It's an online tool, [00:11:30] basically, which will tell you certain things that you can do. And, um and one of the things is that you sign up and you say, You know that you want to hold a screening, we will connect you with other people who are going to do a screening. We'll send you a screening guide on how to organise a screening. We'll send you like a tips and techniques sheet on what kinds of things you know you need to pay attention to so that you can have a successful screening. Um, with lots of ideas on on how [00:12:00] to build a campaign. We're trying to sort of play with the idea of 29 because there are 29 principles. So maybe you can get creative, like in the Philippines. Um, they're going to give away 29 awards to to LGBT allies who have done a wonderful work on behalf of LGBT people. Um, I think in China they are going to do a series of activities of 29 ways to be friendly to trans [00:12:30] people. Uh, so, you know, so different people are doing different things. Uh, and I think that the idea is to make it interesting for people, uh, to make it also something that the media will be interested in. Of course, you can also do heavy duty work, like using it to push for legislation, but yeah. Yeah. Grace, are you able to give us a bit more of an indication about, um, exactly [00:13:00] what the full video will show? Yeah, we The video will basically be divided into Oh, Well, actually, um, how is the best way to put it? We are trying to make the Jakarta. We are trying to act. Let's put it this way. We're trying to activate the Yoak Carta principles, taking it away from being this dry document into something that's going to [00:13:30] be interesting for people. And we thought that we would do it through the lens of activism in Asia. So we have a lot of compelling stories, uh, that LGBT activists share about the struggles they're going through. We have some moving stories of abuses that people have gone through. But we also show the fights because we don't want to just, uh, reinforce the idea that API people just suffer and [00:14:00] that, you know, we are struggling under overwhelming, uh, conditions that there's a very vibrant activism and fight against homophobia and transphobia in the region. So those two things will be shown, and then we are going to, uh, weave the different rights as they relate to the different things that people are going through so that when you're watching the film, you will sort of when you see, for instance, [00:14:30] uh, one you saw a little bit of the reenactment. Uh, the Thai lesbian, who was, uh, who was who experienced corrective rape? Uh, I don't know if you're familiar with the term, but, uh, corrective rape is rape to um uh, change a person. Um, you know, you believe that, um, a lesbian or a woman or a person who is perceived to be, You know, gay, uh, needs to be cured of [00:15:00] their sexual orientation by being raped. So this, uh, Thai lesbian was raped, Gang raped, basically. And so as you're watching this, people may not may only think that the only thing only right that was violated was a bodily right. But there are several other things that took place. So you will constantly be reminded when people go through certain kinds of abuses, multiple rights are violated, or that when one right is taken [00:15:30] away, you're denied being able to enjoy another, right? So we try to unpack that as much as we can, and we end with this, hopefully very rousing call to action where different activists in different countries talk about how they're going to be using the Yogyakarta principles, what they're doing in their countries already. And then what? We hope this will lead to this courage unfolds campaign that [00:16:00] we hope will be built around the video. Yeah, So let's hope, um, it's the original will be in English, and we are planning to make it available one month before it's released so that then the partnering countries can get it translated into languages. We don't have a grant to, uh, you know, do the translation in Asia, we [00:16:30] can't pick the languages because there are so many languages. Yeah, Got a question You talked about having to get clearance from the group shots, and I can understand that. How did you go about finding people to participate? Thank you for asking that question. Um, we were very, very intentional. From the very beginning, we knew that we wanted people to use the video. So from the beginning, we asked [00:17:00] people to be part of the process so that we weren't just making a film and saying Here, take the film and go do something with it. So from the very beginning, we asked people to frame questions. We asked people to videotape their own statements. Um, because the video team only went to the countries where the banner was travelling and in the countries where the banner wasn't travelling. We asked people to send their statements, video statements and stills, and we worked with [00:17:30] people for the last two years. So there was a constant process from the beginning asking people, Do you think a campaign would make sense? Uh, you know, uh, asking people how long the video should be. We wanted it to be a one hour video, and people say, Oh, no, don't make it more than 30 minutes. So it's gonna be 30 minutes. Um and we said, Look, we really want to release it December 10th because it makes sense. That's human Rights Day. And the activists said No. [00:18:00] You know, most of us have two jobs. We put all our energy into organising Idaho. We put all our energy into organising for pride. We just can't organise another big event. So if you're going to release it, release it like in May. So we made all those decisions along with what people on the ground were telling us, so that by the time the video is like out, there's already a sense of ownership and and we felt that was the best strategy. [00:18:30] A lot of my main Well, um, when you say and how the project originate in terms of how you manage speak with so many countries. OK, um, we Well, we sort of bifurcated, uh, the shooting and the production [00:19:00] that we refers to, uh, lesbian advocates Philippines, which is a local group in the Philippines, and the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission, the Asia Programme of Eagle and then the post production and all of this campaign building is Eagle, the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission. And because gin Cristobal and I work in Asia and I coordinate the Asia programme, you know it is our job to be constantly working with [00:19:30] people on the ground. So that's how we were able to connect with activists. And initially, when we began the project, uh, we thought it would only be a five minute video of the banner and we would just send out these free DVD S. And then people said, No, you know, we wanna be in it. We wanna be in it, you know, before you know it, you know, everybody wants to be in it. So it just grew and it was going to be just a showcasing [00:20:00] of LGBT struggles and activism in the region. Uh, and then Boris is in the audience, so maybe he can say something, but, you know, the the momentum about the joke, the interest in the Jakarta principles began to pick up. People began to say we need to publicise it. And so then we were told, maybe this video should be about the Yogyakarta principles since it was developed in Asia. So we freaked out [00:20:30] because, you know, we had this idea, and all of a sudden the intention of the film was going in another direction. So we had to do a lot more gathering of footage, which is why it's taken us quite a while. Uh, we honestly, we changed, like, three editors. So we're now with the third editor, Um, and we're working with multiple formats, you know, multiple formats, all kinds of material. Um, but it's a good, organic way to work with a film that's meant to be something [00:21:00] that activists are supposed to use. So I kind of like that organic process, and it's a pain in the ass, but, you know, it's it's it's good. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe you want to say something about the YP and you know, yeah, where to begin. There's so much to say about the Yogyakarta principles. Um, maybe it's good to highlight that. As Grey said, lots of people [00:21:30] when they read the Yogyakarta principles think it's quite boring, legalistic, very difficult to really understand what's behind the principles. So in a coordination group, we decided to also, um, work on an activist guide. And this is somewhat similar to what Grace is doing with her video with her documentary, Um, we asked groups from all over the world to share their, um, [00:22:00] ways of working with the Yogyakarta principles, concrete examples and to share that with us, and we combined it, and we compiled it into an activist guide to the Yogyakarta principles. For those of you who attended the conference, it was in the welcoming package. It's yeah, that's the Yogyakarta principles, but the activist guide is also in it. It's, uh, has a silver colour, and there there are about 29 examples. [00:22:30] I believe there is also one example from New Zealand in it, and it makes it actually very easy to understand what those principles really are about. Because in one country, people used the principle of the right to education and showed an example there in another country. It was something completely different again. So all of a sudden, when you see the wealth of possibilities, you understand how broad [00:23:00] and how encompassing the Yogyakarta principles are. Um, so that's the activist guide. And maybe it's also good to say that the Yogyakarta principles it's not a fixed document. It was compiled and codified at the end of 2006, But through international jurisprudence, new international recognised human rights are emerging. So it might very [00:23:30] well be that in a few years time we can add to the 29 principles principle number 30 31 and especially in the field of transgender rights, there is a lot of developments going on. So hopefully those will be included also in the Yogyakarta principles. Um, yeah, Maybe that's what I can say now. Great. Thanks. And on the website Excuse [00:24:00] me on the website along with the screening guide, uh, and the tip sheet, we will link to, um, the activist guide so that you can download it if you you know, if you want to, uh, electronic copy of it. Um, the hope is that we are going to have an interactive map so that when each country or city does a launch and activities. They will be able to input that information maybe [00:24:30] with, like a like a 32nd or a 62nd video that will go on to a map, meaning, like you can hover your cursor over a city or a country. And then it will take you to that country, and then you can see what people are doing. But I we'll see if we can pull that off, but yeah, thank you. Special. Thank you so much. Grace. That's been terrific. And [00:25:00] you can see from the interest. And I think there are a lot of signatures on that bit of paper, which you'll get by the end of the evening. So we should, um, have a lot of chance to see the the whole thing here afterwards. Uh, I don't know whether there's anyone else outside trying to come in. Do you need to check? Just We'll just have a look while I'm, um, introducing our exciting, uh, movie that we're about to see. Um, this is, of course, assume nothing. And we're lucky enough to have, um, four people [00:25:30] associated with it, but particularly the two major, uh, filmmakers and photographer of, um and we Uh, that, of course, is Rebecca Swan and Kirsty McDonald. Um, assume nothing focuses on the art photography and performances of New Zealander Rebecca Swan and four other alternative gender artists of Maori, Samoan, Japanese and Pakeha European descent, which includes, um, as I said earlier, Marie Mitchell and Jack Byrne, who are both here as well. [00:26:00] Directed by Kirsty McDonald It poses the questions. What if male and female are not the only options? How do other genders express themselves through art? And, uh, a lot of New Zealanders here and maybe some from overseas will already know a great deal and have seen, um, probably earlier versions and maybe even this version and want to see it again, which you reasonably would, um, some of you will have been to, hopefully to Rebecca Swan's exhibition here at Out at the Asia [00:26:30] Pacific Out Games of Sweat. Some of you may have been in the kissing booth yesterday. I don't know. I unfortunately had something else on. And, uh, Rebecca is, of course, a visual artist working with photography and mixed media and, uh, the the original photographic exhibition and book assume nothing are a journey into the intimacy nuances and complexities of gender identity. Kirst is an independent filmmaker and completed eight short films around, um, assume Nothing to start with [00:27:00] in the feature length documentary. And, of course, the the photos and films toured, UM, between 208 and 2 2010 5 major New Zealand art galleries and museums seen by over Now, the commas in the wrong place. Would it be 20,000 or 200,000 people to 200,000 people? That's absolutely fantastic. The Human Rights Commission worked in partnership with the artists and local Trans people to run workshops alongside the exhibition [00:27:30] and to profile the commission's 2008 transgender inquiry report. Even just recently, the number of places that this is being screened is just fantastic. Recently in Delhi at the Queer Fest there, Belgrade, Serbia, Hastings, England, Kingston, Canada. Um, I think Navarra Spain might have been black and white rather than, uh than this one. But you know, it's going everywhere and has won them a load of awards. So we're we're really privileged tonight. Um, [00:28:00] Kirsty and Rebecca are going to say a little bit before the screening and then again do a Q and a afterwards. Please welcome Kirsty and Rebecca. Um, I think we should We should sing. You can sing. I can't. Kirsty is a beautiful singer. Um, Thank you, Prue. You leave very little for us to have [00:28:30] to say. That was a very thorough introduction. Um, but just wanted to thank you, Prue and the team you have around you at the out games. It's a great opportunity to, um, be able to showcase the film, Um, to an, uh, a local again and an international audience. So, yeah. Thank you for choosing to come to this instead of the dinner. Um, hopefully you'll enjoy it. Um, so I want to say, Well, just [00:29:00] just a couple of things. First of all, yes. Thank you very much for coming to the screening. We've, uh I've been very many people who were at the panel earlier today. Oh, fabulous. Um, Well, in that case, mostly we'll be sticking around obviously afterwards for a Q and a Jack Byrne and Marie Mitchell are with us, and Kihara was going to be with us, but she's been snapped up by the dinner, Um, and won't be here, but we're we're really looking forward to you seeing this version of the film. [00:29:30] Um, just by way of explanation. The full length version is just over 80 minutes long, but this is a version that was made for broadcast. It's been broadcast in Israel, Finland and Russia, and this is the version of the film that they get to see. So it's a delightful sort of romp through assume nothing land. I hope you enjoy it, and we look forward to talking with you afterwards. You wanna go to today? [00:30:00] Well, I'll just I'll just briefly say a little thing for those of you who weren't at the, um, panel discussion that we did this morning. The context of the film very briefly is that I saw Rebecca Swan's book assume nothing in A in a shop window in Auckland and was sort of drawn inside the shop and then so blown away by these incredible images that I went to certain lengths to to find Rebecca and propose that we collaborate [00:30:30] on a film together. So that's how the project began, and then it's gone through many manifestations. As some of you will know, Rebecca and I have had an exhibition of stills and photographs and stills and films that have toured New Zealand and and are now in Barcelona. And then the film itself has a life as a as a documentary and travelling around festivals and so on. So that's just a, you know, a very tiny part of the story, but probably made way more interesting [00:31:00] to you, is is, um, the people in the film. So it's just I just really like to say how wonderful it is to be here with money and Rebecca and Jack, because their stories and their courage and their amazing craft is what made the film, I think, resonate with so many different kinds of audiences. So, um, you know, far away with questions and and perhaps they want to say a little something, too first, let's see Jack. Oh, just [00:31:30] one other thing is, I think it must have been fantastic for those of you who have witnessed Jack's extraordinary facilitating skills and Jack, you know, I'm sure he's helped a number of you make it here from other countries, and it must have been quite delightful to see another side of that. You you may not have, um, you know he wasn't backwards in coming forward in the in the brief time we had when we together. Yeah, and I just think it it's quite funny to look at it because, um, [00:32:00] Kirsty and the wonderful um what what do you call them? Cameraman Chris were turning up my house, and and And it was when I was still like my My life was extremely busy, so I'd worked. Yes, I've worked really long hours, and I think I got home half an hour before they got there, and I didn't really have much of an idea about what we might do. And I just started doing dress ups, so which isn't particularly political. [00:32:30] But, you know, that was what we we ended up doing. And you could, I don't know if she didn't, do they? They Chris was with the camera in the doorway of the of that room, and I was a really great flat. I had that huge wardrobe with lots of costumes and other clothes in it, but the whole floor was covered in clothes, including my kim at the frog outfit. So, um, but you made something beautiful out [00:33:00] of it. Yeah, we've got our own. Oh, you got your own. Yes, I don't really know what to add. It's, um there's so many things to say. It's probably, um, more important to know what you want to know about, because it's such a huge project that spanned for so many years. So, yeah, hand it over to mhm. No, I don't. Nothing in particular [00:33:30] other than to say any question that you've got sitting there is is certainly welcome on my part. And if the others don't want to answer, I'm sure they'd say so. So please ask. This film uses very simple techniques. Um, it was just It was distilled over a long period of time, which I think is one of the, you know, great gifts that the people in the film gave to me as a filmmaker was allowing me to keep showing [00:34:00] up and so on. So they weren't, you know, massive budgets or high tech crews like, you know, not that I'm saying you would want to do animations, but, for example, the little one of Mary the Super Eight animation I bought those toys from the $2 shop. Um, I picked a bag full of chaia from my garden. Um, you know, we made this on a Super eight camera that my camera person had. Everything was done very simply. I produced, directed and edited it in my you [00:34:30] know, next to my kitchen. Um, it was just the extraordinary goodwill. So I would say more, You know, the place that you're coming from and the place that the the people in your film are coming from, Um, that will shine through. It's not about trying to trick people, I. I personally think the beauty is incredibly potent. And so it was something that I really wanted to sort of. Distil and Distil, A well crafted and really beautiful film. But that's just one way and [00:35:00] one approach. And I think, you know, it was the honesty and openness and vulnerability of the people. And that wasn't through high tech Or, you know, any trickery that just came from people being really open and coming. You know, Rebecca talked about this a little bit, uh, in the panel. But she had a very, very ethical approach that included allowing people, um, absolute right to withdraw either their images or parts of their stories and that [00:35:30] in in turn, allowed people to make themselves very vulnerable, vulnerable, knowing that they could could pull it back if they need a toy. So I think it's much more about the working relationships and the kind of processes that that you use that will, um, make your film. I'm sure. A really a really wonderful one. Oh, I think, um, I think my question to Rebecca, but it's not really Well, it is one question, Um, Eileen Brown is my name, um, [00:36:00] I. I feel actually part of a journey and that I remember going to the book launch at the at Unity Books and then buy the book and and then going out to the and now coming tonight, it feels like it just gets it and deeper. So, um, I guess you know, perhaps one question It's not really a question, but, you know, I, I sort of think what comes next, then, um but just [00:36:30] a kind of a technical question was the music was wonderful, and I wondered whose music it was. Um, so my, um, in conclusion, Yeah. Thanks for the journey. So many things, and yeah, it's it's, um, something that's Yeah. Just been deepened tonight, and yeah, the music was beautiful too. Thank you. I'll speak to the music in a second. But Rebecca, maybe you'd like to speak first about this project that just won't go away and won't stop because it Yes. Um, [00:37:00] I think it is I. I experience it similarly in that, you know, every time it has an outing, be at an exhibition, a film screening, a discussion. Um, it does keep getting richer. And the other lovely thing is, our relationships keep getting richer because I didn't know Marie before. I saw a newspaper clipping. Kirsty didn't know me until she saw my book. You know, I didn't know Jack until I saw him on stage, you know? So we've [00:37:30] all kind of grown and got richer through the journey as friends and as artistic creative people, which has been, you know, wonderful. And I think that's kind of we give each other the energy to kind of keep it rolling because it has been really challenging many, many times. Um, but I think it's it's also got, um, such a spirit and a force of itself. You know, as we were talking over dinner that it's It's almost like it's [00:38:00] strange to refer to it as something inanimate because it feels like a being, you know, um, as we speak here. There are people in Barcelona who are reading the text panels. They're watching the film translated into Spanish. You know, it's the reach of it. Um is testimony to the to the power of it, and it's almost like, you know, yes, it's kind of born of us, but it's It's also kind of its own little entity as well. [00:38:30] So we have enjoyed and been challenged by the journey along the way, and, um, and it's been, you know, that's been international encounters as well. Jack and I were in New York launching the American edition of the book in October. Um, you know, we did the book launch in Australia as well. He's taken it, you know, being on the ground in the States when there's been film screenings. There's so many, you know, a a occurrences of of when [00:39:00] it's been out in the world and each time kind of feels yeah, that it does definitely enrich and deepen the the journey. There's also that, um, like for any of you that have been to the exhibition spaces, I think I I particularly remember the opening at the where called us up from down below after we'd had a night of performances. And then we had a Elizabeth doing the and we all went up into the [00:39:30] the exhibition room or in Christchurch. And there's some people here who are at the Christchurch one where we had, um uh um commissioner, um, Richard Tankersley, who's, um, bless the space along with, uh, one of the from down there because, um, the the exhibition was in the space where the mummy had been. So, you know, we had to cleanse the space, and it was like, all of those people that are on the wall and normally whenever we go there, Beck stands and tells you about all the people on [00:40:00] the wall and this amazing, you know, sister girl, um, rusty from, um, Australia. There's, um you know, you go round and name them all. There's there's the queer from our trans community, like on the wall, you know, And, um so all of them are there. There's a history with it, and then it's created its own history, and it's, um So it is like past, present and future. You know, it's it's got all of [00:40:30] that and it's, you know, it's really powerful. Whenever we travelled down, any of us to to it when it was there, like you felt like you were going back to see old friends and I always cried, did you? One of the things I want to add is, um, in terms of the journey and the evolution. When Kirsty [00:41:00] started doing the filming, the thing that I was really excited was that Rebecca was exposed. And and I mean that in a beautiful sense, not in a negative sense, because in the book, yes, there's her photographs, but you have no sense of this extraordinary human, which is the genesis. So when we're talking about the evolution, I look forward to the film about Kirsty because Kirsty mirrors Rebecca in a very different [00:41:30] way. But the what Kirsty brought to the project and what is captured in the exhibition is that the one dimension of photography became this multi dimension of of the process. And and I think that that's something quite extraordinary that the two artists working together captured, which, as far as I know is quite unique. Um, another question, as far [00:42:00] as beautiful music. Um, there are two main composers. One is James Webster who created the instruments and played all of the traditional Maori music. And that happened through a very fortuitous accident. Um, the sequence that you see of Emma being dressed in the 21st century cyber sister costume at te Papa almost didn't happen, because that day Wellington airport was closed with fog, and [00:42:30] she was supposed to be arriving at 10. In the morning. And, uh, the planes were cancelled, and hour after hour, she'd call and say, Shall I just go home because, you know, they're not letting planes come. And I said, Oh, no, please, if you don't mind, just hang out and keep trying. She made it there an hour before, at about five o'clock, just before we were going to have to shut down. Um, and I'd been filming with a mannequin up until that point, in case that was all we could do. And while I was waiting, her friend, the artist Suzanne Tamaki, who'd come down from, [00:43:00] um, Otaki to dress her, I'd said to her, Look, I really want to find some music, something that has a really deep, kind of very grounded. Um, if you like masculine, earthy, kind of equality. And I'd like there to be some either kind of spirit, kind of a high kind of feeling with a lot of space in between, she said. Oh, I've just done this fabulous fashion show in Nelson this weekend and this really great guy, James Webster. He did the music, and so I've never met him. But he kindly [00:43:30] agreed for the music to be used. And then, um, the other musics from a fabulous composer called Claire Cohen, who's a young New Zealand woman who's just wonderful. And there's a funny story to do with that as well. But, uh, probably less relevant to our conversation tonight, Thank you all for staying, by the way, it's fantastic. So I would just like to acknowledge, um, your guys' work and how artistically talented you all are. When [00:44:00] is the, um, stage play or musical opera coming out? Yes, Big just said, Who's gonna play me? You know, we can hear pretty well if you just, um, last question. I think there are a lot of parallels between those images and nothing. Um, can you elaborate a little bit on if there are? [00:44:30] Um, yeah. Um, you're referring to sweat. I'm just doing a plug here. Sweat that's on at Mark Hutchins Gallery 2168 Willis Street. Um, yeah, um, parallels. It feels quite different work to me. Um, however, I think there is What I would see as the parallels with it is probably the intention of the work, um, which is around [00:45:00] breaking down, um, perceptions of, um, sexual intimacy. And, um and but just to explain, for people who haven't seen the work, there's there's a wall of 100 and eight images, um, of intimate, intimate exchanges between people, and they're quite close ups and the it's interactive. So people can move the images around, which means you might have an image of, um, two gay men with hairy chests [00:45:30] next to two lesbians, um, kissing each other's necks next to, um, a trans couple next to. So it was sort of about kind of distilling it back. I think, um, you know, um, sexuality can kind of be very, uh, levelling, um and I and for me, but through my experience, of, you know, identifying as a lesbian. And now, being with Jack, who's a trans guy, [00:46:00] Um, I've I've come across people who sort of can't quite fit me in a box anymore. So it's really wanting to kind of break down those boxes and really make it about, you know, these are little moments of intimacy, and it's about that intimacy rather than it's a boy and a girl or a girl and a girl and a boy and a boy and a girl and a trans person. Or, you know. So that's how the my, um um, analysis of where [00:46:30] the parallels are. Aesthetically, it's very different work. It's colour. Um, it's small. It's kind of, uh, you know, um, montage together. But, um, yeah, I think the intention comes from a similar place, which is kind of acceptance of diversity and, you know, distilling back to to to our humanity. Thank you for the question and my ability to plug my show. Nothing. [00:47:00] Whole process started off involved. Work and challenge. Um, well, no one dropped out of the photographs. Chris can reply and related to the film. Um, So, [00:47:30] um, it was it was kind of through my approaches. It wasn't. I didn't kind of advertise. I did advertise for this latest show, but I didn't advertise for people. I kind of found people and had had a conversation with them around it. And as I was saying before, no one, no one said no. Um, everyone went through with it. And I think, um, Kirsty mentioned before because I had, uh a process that allowed people to pull out if they weren't happy with the results. [00:48:00] Um, it was quite a safe, um, a safe way to say yes to something, knowing that they had control over it. Um, sorry. What was the second part of your question? Many, many, many, many? Um, yeah, it's hard to sustain. It's from the first photograph to the book. Publication was eight years, so that's a long time to sustain energy of a project. Um, [00:48:30] and I thought that was the end of it. And then Kirsty came along. Um, so it's It's like 15 years now, Um, and it's never generated any money. So that and it's, uh it's cost me a lot of money, and I sold my house in order to publish the book. So It's, uh that's been a challenge to be able to sustain something that I'm completely passionate about. And I really want to get it out there. Um, but at the same time, I have to, you know, make a living and get by. So, [00:49:00] um, but I think kind of the positives of it was that I did self publish, so I had no external parameters of a publisher saying, Oh, yeah, it's nice, but I don't want that to go next to that. You know, I had complete editorial control, and given that I had honoured, you know, given everyone editorial rights, that would have been very difficult to manage within a commercial publishing, um, you know, contract because they're they're fronting up with the money. They're gonna want editorial [00:49:30] control over it. So there's kind of been pros and cons around all that. Um um I think despite all the sort of small challenges along the way, I've never considered that well, with the book, I've never considered that it wasn't gonna happen. It was sort of this stupid belief that, um, you know, it had to get out there in the world. And I was, you know, people were saying Just just move on. You know, you've you know, [00:50:00] you've approached 100 publishers just, you know, start something else. And but I never, um I never doubted that somehow it was going to happen and, you know, and I never kind of dreamed that it would grow into the thing that it is now. Yeah, And that's exactly how I felt about the film, too. When I saw Rebecca's book, I was just absolutely certain that under all circumstances we would create this film and it would go out. And I even [00:50:30] believed from the very first moment that I saw Rebecca's book that she would get a publishing deal in New York. So when that did actually happen years later, I was just like yep, yep, because I knew that it was so beautiful and so strong. And even if every single person in the world isn't interested in in gender identity and identity, politics and queer issues, it's just such an unusually potent book, and the people in it were so vivid [00:51:00] and, you know, compelling that we just needed to keep going because it would find an audience, because that's the other thing You know, we've done all this stuff, but people have come and watched it and engaged with it and supported it. And people in positions of authority have said Yes, we will have this exhibition at our museum. And yes, we will screen this in our festival. And so other people have taken that that offering [00:51:30] and gone. Yes, we we hear you, you know, it's I don't think I mean, certainly the photographs are very potent, but they're not didactic. And hopefully the film is not bullying people either. But it's got a very strong point of view. And I think that there's enough space in there for people to engage. You know, that was always my number. One priority was creating a space that people wouldn't go. Oh, well, that's just something I don't really know about. And I a bit weird and sort of turn away, [00:52:00] but actually feel invited to come and, you know, just be present. So yeah, and that began with the images and that kind of certainty, I think sustained the unreasonable passion that we had. How much do you think that assume? Nothing has helped to achieve public knowledge of kind of the human rights, um, inquiry into transgender rights. Um, [00:52:30] and also, was it kind of purpose like seeing that they came out at the kind of the same time? And also, was it purposeful for it to be kind of a form of activism? What was the last? Was it purposeful for it to be a kind of activism? Um, the impact of this project, the the quantum, is enormous. Um, as has already been said, 200,000 people attended this exhibition. [00:53:00] In a country that has a population between, what, five and 6 million people. 4.5, 4.5 million. Sorry. OK, so the percentage is enormous. The other thing about this exhibition was it had a general classification. This was an exhibition that Children came to see with parents. And one of the most moving narratives in this many is the first day that [00:53:30] the exhibition was opened. First public day. Um, Jack and Beck went out and followed by chance, um, a man and his two Children up the steps, and they paused at the sign and and there was a parental caution. And the kids excitedly said, Dad, can we go in there. So they run into the gallery and they're confronted by the images and they turn around and they say to their dad, You know, are these boys or girls and and Dad not [00:54:00] realising that the artists are behind says, I don't know. Let's go and read This exhibition transformed people's lives. You know, For many gender, variant, transgender, queer people, it was the first time in their lives that had a reflection of their reality. Um, I'm gonna finish there and let Jack carry on III. I don't know how you start to say it. It was this size [00:54:30] or the size. It was enormous. And I think it's it's also that, um every place we went, we worked with trans people locally. So what happened there was different in different places, But we also when we had our public workshops, we did a trans 101 a young and trans and a creative one. trans vocal that we brought in people from other places to bring in more diversity. We took, [00:55:00] um, down to, um, actually down to Christchurch. We took young people around the country like when we did the one we brought in a whole lot of young people for the first youth panel because there was weren't that many in Wellington at that time, and there were people there doing stuff, but I think it, you know, it was a good time. It it it hit a and, you know, transform started very soon after that. It might have started anyway, but it gave a a bit more of a focus to it. Um, Ford started [00:55:30] quite soon after it was in Christchurch or or some I can't remember the order, but it was around the same time that supported each other. Um, so it it supported people's activism. Anyway, it wasn't the only thing that it, but it supported it in. It was good for us as a community because of that sharing of those diverse stories. It was, uh, you know, I particularly love the the ones where we were creative together, and we, you know, had fun together. And it brought different parts of our community because our community, [00:56:00] like any community, is quite diverse. And it brought different people together. Was it purposeful? Um, was that was That was hard for me. Um, actually doing parts of the inquiry because I started it in, um, probably late 2005. Over my summer break, I, um, moved to doing it in my summer break. Um, scoping it and, you know, because I couldn't be Jack Burn, [00:56:30] I had to be someone working at the Human Rights Commission because it's for any of us. When you're doing something under another hat, it can be quite difficult. And, um and of course, you know, like, where where those boundaries are. And then there was this other boundary between, You know, I was a bit nervous about saying to the commission, I think we should support assume nothing. You know, when I knew that was happening and in fact, so So really, it came from Beck approaching the commission, Really? And the commission's been hugely supportive, [00:57:00] and and I actually think, you know, the commission Human Rights Commission got a lot out of, you know, got a huge amount out of it. It was a huge act of generosity from, you know, getting a AAA public art gallery tour in New Zealand and sharing it with all of us. But it's just kind of how we do things. Do you think? Yeah. I don't know. She's probably got some more. Um, I think it was. It was intentional, and it was purposeful. Um, I mentioned on the panel today. It's, [00:57:30] um I didn't want people to go into a gallery, read a few stories, look at a few pictures, watch films and go away and not do anything about it. So forming the partnership with the Human Rights Commission gave a vehicle and a platform to enable people to engage on a much deeper level. Um, they could take a copy of the inquiry report away, away with them. They could give it to their schools, their workplace. It just became a very, um, um, sanctioned [00:58:00] environment for I mean, we had we had many, many stories of people for the first time. They would invite a work colleague. You know, if they had gender identity issues themselves. It was kind of a respectable, um, respectful place to say, Look, can you come and look at this exhibition? I'd like you to see it and then that kind of facilitated dialogue, because, you know, you can't kind of leave there without having conversations about it. [00:58:30] Um, but yes, it was It was definitely purposefully, um, that that partnership was purposefully designed to, um, uh, consolidate any action that people would want to take it gave people opportunities to to to take action, to take a terminology sheet away, um, to to attend a workshop. Um, so it's it meant it could [00:59:00] operate on many levels, whatever was most comfortable for people. It was sort of, you know, we kind of laid a smar board out for them, and people could come and pick what they were comfortable with at that point in time. This one funny thing I was thinking about, as you were saying, that was about, um So during the time of when I was working on the inquiry from 2005 through to, you know, it's 2.5 years later when it's when it comes out or a bit over two years. And so I'm having meetings with, you know, senior government officials and staff around each of the [00:59:30] issues there because we we collected all the stories of trans people. But then we showed those to the government agencies so trans people could find out what the how what what the government agency's responses were to an issue. And then the commission, um then said OK, based on what the Trans people have said. What the government agencies have said, these are our recommendations. So I'd had, you know, quite, you know, serious conversations with people. And I remember not long after I assume nothing started being, you know, [01:00:00] having another serious conversation with a senior official in a government agency, and he just dropped into the conversation halfway through. I saw the exhibition last week, and then it's kind of interesting because you just laugh because, you know, this person's seen you in in your underpants. Um, there's one other thing I'd just like to add to that which kind of ties assume nothing to Grace's film a little because historically, um, when I first wrote out what we call a treatment, [01:00:30] which is kind of like the plot of the documentary that you write before you've actually shot the documentary. So you've got a bit of a map, even though reality will take you, you know, far, far away from your map. Um, the first person I ever interviewed for this film was actually Georgina Baer when she was still an MP here. And, uh, for those of you who don't know, Georgina Baer was the world's first ever transsexual member of parliament. And, um, [01:01:00] she was proposing to to put an amendment to the Human Rights Act here in New Zealand where gender or the the yeah gender identity to to to protect that legally and in words and have that encapsulated within our written definition. And so initially, the assume nothing film based on on Rebecca's work and people in the book was going to explore the the passage of that that bill [01:01:30] as it as it took place. As it turns out, the bill was never, um, put in Georgina not that long afterwards, left parliament and and the film took what I think is a much more stronger and inviting path, which was to explore creativity and gender identity and the whole idea of a kind of joyful celebration of gender identity through art. But it did begin as a much more self consciously activist, [01:02:00] um, sort of historical archiving meshed with with with that, um which it seems so long ago. Now, I I've just remembered it. Come here. Um, hi. Um, one of the things that I've been thinking about. Well, because, um, we have a copy of the book we attended the Who in Palmerston North, and we now we've seen the film. Um, and I remember first opening the book and just being sort of overwhelmed [01:02:30] and challenged. Um, my question is really to Jack and Manny is How did you feel when you first opened the book or when you first saw the film? So what emotions did you feel about seeing yourselves exposed in that way? All right, well, I'll start. The, um The first public imaging of of Rebecca's photographs were in Auckland, [01:03:00] and I had my genital surgery, Um, and a lot of the medical interventions that occurred to me and in Auckland. So those of you who know, um, the school was on the side of the gully and the hospital was literally on the other side. So the experience of mine of having my own naked body hanging in a public place [01:03:30] under my terms and with my permission, was one of the most transforming experiences of my life. And those of us who have been involved in the project also then, as Rebecca, they had to wait a long time before the book, um, became a reality. And then the the first book launch also took place in Auckland and as Rebecca is an artist and an extraordinary creative person [01:04:00] at a chance meeting meant that at the opening our images were projected onto the side of a six story building. So we went from these images inside an art gallery, and they were reasonably large to having our our images portrayed on the side of a six story building in in Auckland. Almost beyond words, but definitely healing, transformative and and as you can now see, [01:04:30] I mean, these are some of my most important friends and, yeah, a transformative process beyond anything that I could have imagined. I I'm also a therapist, and I've often thought you know about what's occurred here and one of these stars. I will sit down and write it up because it's important and profound, and we need to work out what actually did happen. Jack. Well, I'm I'm not in the book because [01:05:00] I didn't know when she took those photos. And, um, the first night we went home together, she showed me some of them um, but I did get on to the, you know, four Jack page. So sometimes I sign that page if people ask, um, but I'm in the exhibition in the film. Um, I think my biggest feelings about the exhibition are more about all the people [01:05:30] that are there. Like, it is the images of us going up with up and up to the opening, You know that that, um they are my stronger images, but I do have an a AAA memory. A very strong memory of the first time. There's two photos of me in the exhibition. Um, one's, uh, the colour one that you see there where I'm wearing the, um, the white jacket. And I'm sort of looking a little bit angelic or something. And that's total. That was [01:06:00] another equivalent of doing dress ups. It's one of my favourite activities. And, um, had a couple of shots left on her in a camera, and, um and so I, you know, was quite late at night, and I jumped on top of the bed and put the jacket on, and I just freak, you know, fluke shots. Really, I shouldn't really give that away, should I And so, um, but the other one is, you know, me looking lovingly at big, you know, kind of like they had a black and white one. And, um [01:06:30] what the The day that we were signing off the final version of the transgender Inquiry report. And so I was sitting with the commissioners and we were going through it, and I had a half an hour break when we had a lunch break and Beck was printing that off. And it's it's film. So and and it's on special paper that she doesn't have many copies of this. This she can tell you that technical stuff, but, um and she was it off. And [01:07:00] oh, I did feel torn because I knew she would really have loved me to be over there and I. I had to get this finished and I dashed over there in my lunch break, and it was the first time I'd seen a picture of it being developed, and we stood together and and watched it, you know, that was that was pretty pretty special to see your image coming, you know, through the developer. So I've got That's my very strong and it's all positive. It is all hugely positive and and and affirming. And I think my, um, Emma see it [01:07:30] in the film. You know, be, you know, you say it, too, that what you do is you make people feel you. You show beauty in all its forms. So we all feel great when Beck takes our photo. Can I just, um I know I'm not in the book, obviously, but, um, in relation to sort of having having the camera position flipped, being part of the film, Um, that was one of the gifts of as Kirsty said, it took [01:08:00] it, you know, spanned over over many years. So as, um, I felt more and more. I put certain parameters on what I was prepared to talk about in the film. Um, but as as the project evolved and as I kind of evolved, um, I felt more and more comfortable about revealing more about my So So I sort of made a choice that I wasn't going to tell my story. I was happy to talk about the creative process with everyone else in there, but, um, [01:08:30] over time I felt like and and Kirsty kind of encouraged that It was kind of, you know, a little bit strange that I wasn't kind of vulnerable and revealing my story as as well as the other people. So, um, so the the last, uh, take that, we could add some extra footage. And that was, you know, my civil union, Um, and answering a few, you know, other questions. That was more about my relationship [01:09:00] and how I identify. And, um, so there was a little bit of nervousness, which was kind of interesting for me to feel because I'm, you know, asking people to do that for me all the time. Um, but it was such a massive gift. I, um, gave a copy to my parents, Who were they struggled with me. Um, being with Jack and I mean, they are incredible people, but they did take a while to kind of get their heads around it. They didn't have any awareness [01:09:30] understanding experience of anyone who, you know, was Trans. Um and, um, they watched, uh, So I gave them a copy to watch because I knew it was going to be public. I didn't want them to see it. For the first time in public I wanted them to be able to process it, ask any questions, whatever. So I kind of nervously gave them a copy quite soon before the exhibition opened, maybe a couple of weeks or something, and I didn't know how [01:10:00] they were going to respond to it. And, um, my mom rang me up, having watched it, and she was crying, Which doesn't happen a lot with my mom. Happens a lot with me and my dad and everyone else in the family, but, um and she just said, Look, I'm really sorry that I've taken so long to understand. You know, I really prior to that she didn't get my relationship with Jack having seen the film, she got my relationship and she got the absence of her accepting [01:10:30] that and and the impact that that had on me without me saying any of that. So, you know, as I said to Kirsty, she kind of gave me my family back, and that's been, you know, a huge gift in the whole process. So we've all kind of healed and grown, and, you know, it's all we've all kind of grown through it in in measurable ways, really, and Mom's like one of the biggest promoters. She takes the transgender inquiry to all the doctors [01:11:00] she knows, and and whenever we we had exhibitions or anything, there'd be all these people who looked like they were engineers or accountants or something. And we realised they were there because, Beck said Mum had told them to go. Quite a few have slipped away. Well, it's obvious what an amazing experience this has been for an awful lot of people. But it was a great Q and a as well. [01:11:30] I just want quickly to thank Gavin and Mark for doing the technical side and Carol the logistics and grace who's gone, I think, but particularly to thank these four. I mean, it's clearly been an amazing journey, and we're very privileged to share a bit of it. It's been pointed to moving. I'd seen the film before, but I saw it quite differently tonight and it was wonderful hearing the discussion, so thank you all so much. [01:12:00] Yeah.
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