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I'm I'm the president of Agenda New Zealand. Um, agenda was, uh, started, um, way back, Uh, in the mid eighties. Um, it was originally called CD rom. Um, cross dresses are real original men. Um, and in order for them to gain funding, they had to, um, extend the the the scope of where [00:00:30] they actually provide support, not just to cross dressers. So they, um, extended that to all trans people. Um, that come under the umbrella of Trans, um, which are cross dresses, Um, transgender, transsexual, transvestite, Um, intersex, Um, and quite a lot of other identities. I mean, I could rattle off quite a few identities off the top of my head, but we could be here for hours. Um um and yeah, we're basically a support and advocacy [00:01:00] organisation for all trans people around all around New Zealand. Why did it start? Um, there was, um, virtually no support, uh, for trans people in New Zealand. Um, but it was originally four cross dressers and only four cross dresses and cross dressers. Never had anywhere to go. Um, for support. Um, a lot of people thought that cross dressing had a lot of sexual connotations. to it. But there are people who, um, just cross dress for [00:01:30] the sake of it. Um, and that's where um, a lot of the support was being put into, um, and there was virtually none, um, back in the eighties, obviously, Um, but, yeah, that was pretty much the reason it was started. And it was started in Christchurch. There was, um one of the groups was started here in Christchurch, but that wasn't until 1996. Um, it started in Wellington back then. Was there [00:02:00] a tension between cross dressers and trans people? Yes. And there still is. What are the tensions? Um, a lot of, um, transgender and transsexual people say that they are not a part of our community. Um, and personally, I don't think that's that's right. Because when people are crossing the gender boundaries, um, that's all that matters, you know, because at the end of the day, we [00:02:30] all started somewhere. Um I mean, I started out as a cross dresser when I was a teenager, um, and started transitioning when I was 17. Um, and a lot of transsexual entrenched gender people really sort of have the idea of them and us, Um, which is kind of separatist in a way, when it comes to people who cross dress because people start out as cross dressers, you don't just wake up one morning and decide. [00:03:00] Oh, I'm going to be a woman or oh, I'm going to be a man. Um and yeah, I. I just think it's ridiculous that there's still that tension there because, I mean, in order for our community to move forward, we need to show unity, and that's just not happening at the moment. So how did that play out within the organisation itself? Because I imagine that would have had quite an interesting dynamic. Yeah. Yeah, Well, um, agendas never really lost the reputation of just being for cross dressers, and it's [00:03:30] still got that reputation. Um, I've sort of been able to, um, quell the fire a little bit, um, and sort of bring agenda into, um, mainstream and all that kind of stuff and it being viewed as the main trans organisation in New Zealand. Um, and that caters to all people. No matter how they identify, um, just all people who cross the gender boundaries, whether they are cross dresser or [00:04:00] trans transsexual, transgender. Whatever. How did you come to the organisation? Um, well, there was quite a lot of, um, arguments going on with an agenda, um, about having Carmen as our patron. Um, there were some who did not believe that she should be our patron. Um, because of her history and her past and her being a show queen. Um, and her being a former sex worker [00:04:30] as well. Um, and quite a lot of, uh, older members of agenda didn't agree with her being patron. Um, so there was a big nationwide call out for memberships. Um, who, um, I was asked by one of the members of agenda who was on the executive of agenda to join so I could vote to keep Carmen as patron. Um, and that's pretty much how I became a member. Um, and I was never really [00:05:00] an active member until, um, I think it was 2010. Um, when I was volunteering for the New Zealand prostitutes' collective, and I, um, there was an invitation sent to my, um, supervisor at NZ PC, um, inviting her along to go to an agenda event here in Christchurch. And she said I think it would be good for you to go along to, um, you know, just to have a look. And I was like, Oh, but [00:05:30] that's a gender, you know? That's for cross dresses. And it's not for me. And so I still think it would be good for you to go along, you know, just to represent NP a and I said to her, Well, OK, I'll do it for that, but no other reason. And then, um, I went along with a lot of questions for the current president, Uh, Dorothy Gartner, and, um before I had even asked any of my questions, she'd answered them. Um, she, uh, reaffirmed that [00:06:00] it does have a bad reputation for only catering to cross dresses, um, and that she was trying to change that, and she done a pretty good job at it, but the reputation was still there, and she invited me along to, um, be on the Board of agenda Christchurch. And that's where I started. Um, being active in agenda. It's really interesting to me the idea of discrimination within parts of the community that have been discriminated against. Why do you think [00:06:30] there is that discrimination still you know, you think that people would be a bit more aware of not discriminating against people? Indeed. Well, um, any sort of group you come across, you know, um, whether they are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, whatever. Um, there's always conflicts of personality, and that's where the main thing comes from. There's no real unity in the ideas, um, and and that's [00:07:00] where a lot of things are being, um, really sort of bad for the community. Because unless we've got unity, we can't really change. And we're pretty much 25 26 years now behind, um, the gay community because, um, you know the homosexual reform Act in 1986. Um, when that was brought in, um, there was, [00:07:30] um you know, there's quite a lot of support for the gay community, but there was, um, still no support for the trans community. Um, because of the arguments that were still going on, um and yeah, we're pretty much 26 years behind the gay community in terms of equality when it comes to that. And that's only because, um, we haven't really, um, been able to, um, sort of gain a lot of support from from the gay community. [00:08:00] There's a lot of them and us when it comes to, um, the gay, the gay community and the trans community. Um and there's, uh, quite a big, um, bridge between the two, which is quite unfortunate. Um, because there was a bit of support, um, from the trans community when the Homosexual Reform Act was going through, Um, there were some within the trans community who had no idea that this was going on and they were just invited to a party to celebrate, You know, the homosexual Reform Act going through And they [00:08:30] thought, Oh, yeah, it's just a party. And then they turned up and they were like, Hey, when did this happen? What? It was illegal, you know, Um and, yeah, so really a lot of lack of information, um, surrounding, um, a lot of things which has made us sort of being forgotten. Really? And we really It's not until um, quite recently that the gay community have really stepped up and said, Yeah, we'll support [00:09:00] you in any sort of fights that you want to do, um, and any causes that you really want to do when it comes to getting equality. Um, especially when it comes to getting unemployed in the legislation because we're not covered, Um, and the law to be equal in New Zealand, unfortunately. What What? Pieces of law Specifically, uh, the Human Rights Act. Um, the, um, attorney General has [00:09:30] said that, um, we are covered under, um, and a gender when it comes to, um, discrimination. It's never been tested, Um, when it comes to that, But, um, for the last few years agenda, um, along with, um, some other groups, like trans advocates and Gender Bridge, um, have been lobbying to the government to get gender identity included in the Human Rights [00:10:00] Act. Specifically included, um, so that we can be assured that we are covered, Um, under New Zealand law. Um, when it comes to equality and discrimination and does that mean that there is discrimination? Absolutely. Absolutely. There's discrimination that goes on every single day. Um, whether it comes to employment and housing, Um, even just like just general, [00:10:30] um, discrimination. A lot of people, um, make a big deal out of meeting somebody who's trans. Um, a lot of people, um, are really quite ignorant when it comes to um, sort of interacting with a trans person, and it could be seen as discrimination. Um, there's a lot of discrimination that goes on within the prisons. Um, a lot of inequalities there, Um, but mostly with employment and housing and healthcare are the three [00:11:00] big, huge things that, um, that really needs to change, because I mean, landlords, for example, in housing, um, they see a trans person, and then they have all these sort of preconceived notions of, like a trans woman being a sex worker, drug addict, all that kind of stuff. And that's due to lack of education and education is another big thing when it comes to, um, discrimination, because, um, trans [00:11:30] identities aren't, um aren't affirmed in schools. Um, and there's no education in schools about trans people. Um, there is some education around, um, other queer identities, like gay, lesbian and bisexual. There's virtually no education. Now, um, at the moment, um, trans people and affirming to trans identifying students who are attending high school that it is ok and that, [00:12:00] um, that it's not bad to be who you are. You know, um and that's something that, um quite a lot of the youth groups are working on, like Utopia Forge. They've got a really good, um, education coordinator there. And Nicholson, um, and Rainbow Youth. And they've got a fantastic education package, Um, that I sometimes use When, um I take my, um, med student classes for the Otago University School of Medicine. Um, [00:12:30] and the Rainbow Youth Package was developed by Priscilla Pike, and she's their, um, education coordinator. And it's a fantastic package. And I think that package should be rolled out, Um, to all the schools, because that package includes trans identities. Um, but there's just virtually no education around it. And that's, um, because of Well, for example, I went to Nelson to, um, speak to, um, some health professionals [00:13:00] there, and I went to go and speak to the Quest Strait Alliance group at Nelson Boys College. And the day before, I, um, was going to go to, uh, Nelson Boys. Um, I got an email from the leader of the QS a there, um, saying that I wasn't allowed to step foot on the grounds. Um, this was, um, told to him by the principal of the school, um, because the principal did not want um to [00:13:30] want the school to be seen as supporting non heterosexual lifestyles. And that just displays the pure ignorance of, um, of a lot of people within an educational, um, facilities. Um, especially when it comes to high schools, because being trans has nothing to do with sexuality. Um, and that's just pure ignorance on their part. And, um, it was quite funny, though, because, um, I had a meeting that very [00:14:00] same day. I was supposed to go to the school with, uh, the public health nurses from around the region. And I said this in our meeting, and there were about 19 of them, and one of them piped up and said, Oh, well, I'm on the PT a the parent teacher association. This is unacceptable. I'm going to have a word with, you know, the PT a and stuff like that. So I mean, I don't know what happened there. I just got her in contact with the leader of the U A. Um yeah, they weren't particularly [00:14:30] happy about that because they work with the school as well, um, and saying that there's quite a lot of schools around, um, like Nelson, especially where they've got, um, quest alliances. Um, like Nelson girls. Um and, um, there's this one high school there. Um oh, for the life of me, I can't remember the name, but it was It's really, really, really supportive, considering the conservative, um, reputation that Nelson's got very small [00:15:00] town, very small minds, but they are actually quite open within the schools. So, uh, Nelson boys was the only sort of, um, bad experience I had with schools because I was able to go to Marlborough boys and Marlborough girls and speak with, um, the faculty at Marlborough Boys. And I spoke to about 20 Marlboro girl students, um, one of whom has started to question her gender. Um, after my talk there, um, and she's currently seeking [00:15:30] support for that, which is fantastic. So what was it like for you going through school? I went to an all boys boarding school. Um, I first started out my first half of the year in third form in a private Catholic school. Um, and that was very, very interesting. Um, because Catholic schools are still teaching. Um, quite draconian ideas, like, do not [00:16:00] use contraception. Sex before marriage is bad. Um, you will go to hell if you do all this. What kind of year? Year nine or 99? Yeah. Um, yeah. And even now they're still teaching those ideas in Catholic schools and then halfway through third form or year nine. Now, um, I was accepted into a private boarding school in Auckland. Um, I managed [00:16:30] to gain a scholarship there, which was fantastic. Um, but it was, um it was hard. It was hard, uh, trying to figure out who I was. Um, because at first, because of the lack of resources around trans identities because of the lack of education and because there was nothing in any mainstream sort of, um, media [00:17:00] or anything whatsoever. Um, around Trans people. I just thought I was gay because that's the only information that was available. Um, and so I really struggled with that. Um, I didn't think it was right, but I thought that was the only way I could be. So I kind of half accepted that, but half. Not because I still enjoyed wearing girls clothes. Um, I'd go home and dress up, [00:17:30] but I'd been dressing up ever since. Well, I can remember. I'm going to my auntie's house when I was 23 years old and putting on my cousin's clothes and stuff. Um, but because that was the only thing that was out there was gay identities. Um, that's what I thought I was. I wasn't particularly comfortable with that identity, but because that's all that was out there, I thought that's what I was. And it wasn't until I left high school and at the end of 2001 and moved in with my grandmother, [00:18:00] Um, where she, uh, done in Wellington. And she'd been in Wellington since the sixties. Um, so she, um, knew quite a lot of trans people. She was friends with Carmen, um, and she was quite heavily involved in the, um, queen party scene in Wellington and stuff like that. And I still had no idea that that existed. Still, Um, and, uh, she invited a friend of hers around, [00:18:30] um, who was Trans and I had no idea. And when her friend left after a cup of tea and biscuits, um, she was like, Do you know what she is? And I was like, What do you mean? And I was like, Oh, she used to be um, male. And I was like, What? That's possible. And it was from then that I never really sort of, um, looked back. [00:19:00] Really? Because, um I mean, I used to cross dress and stuff like that, but I never thought it was possible that you could go with the football and actually develop breasts and get surgeries and all that kind of stuff because there was still quite a lot of taboo around it and hardly any sort of resources or information around at that time. And Google hadn't been developed. Um uh, to as much as it has now, um, so the information [00:19:30] wasn't readily available. Um, And it wasn't until my nan showed me that it was possible that I was like, OK, it's like That's me. That is who I am. You know that Well, that is what I am not who I am, but, yeah, it was from there, but I never really looked back. Can you describe that kind of moment where the kind of light suddenly goes on? Yeah. Yeah. It was definitely an aha moment. Um, as Oprah likes to put it, Um, [00:20:00] it was it was amazing. It just opened a whole new world up to me. Um, you know, realising that something was possible when just 10 minutes early. I never knew that it was possible. You know, um, and I just felt like this huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders that, um, you know, I feeling wrong identifying as gay I could actually start feeling more comfortable in my [00:20:30] own skin. Um, because, um, it just being gay didn't feel right to me. Um, I didn't feel comfortable in that identity, and I started hating myself for it, and I had a lot of body issues. Um, and as soon as I found that out and found out that, you know, it was possible, it was just like freedom. I was like, I was finally free from this jail that had that [00:21:00] I'd been trapped in for, like, 17 years. Did it change your personality or your outlook? No. Oh, gosh, no. Um, I was still the same person. I just became a lot happier. But, I mean, I've always been sort of taking things on the chin and sort of accepted things. So I mean, even though I wasn't comfortable identifying as gay, I sort of still put up, put on a facade, really, of being happy and all that kind of stuff. But [00:21:30] after finding that out, um, I could actually be happy. And it not being a facade, you know? Yeah. Do you think having the kind of, uh, the gay label so prominent you're either kind of straight or you're gay? Did that actually kind of, um, almost, like hinder you in terms of like, working out who you were? Absolutely. Absolutely. Because you're either one or the other. And that's the same with being trans. Um, [00:22:00] you're either one or the other. And that's what a lot of sort of. Well, not a lot. There's a few within the trans community who say you are either a woman or you're a man. Pick one. And that's where a lot of youth get confused because, um, some people don't fit into, um, the binary of either male or female. You know, um, I believe gender is a spectrum, and you can fit in wherever you want along that spectrum. Um, and I think [00:22:30] it's kind of counterproductive for other people to say that you should be this or you should be that because that's pretty much discriminating. You know, um, against somebody's identity, Because everybody identifies however they want, because that's the awesome thing about identity. It's about you and how you identify not how somebody else can tell you how you should identify, or you should be this. You should be that, um and that's where a lot of, um, youth, [00:23:00] um, get into a lot of trouble because, um, especially, um, through, um, a lot of like social media, um, forums. Now, um, there's a lot of people on there who are saying this is the way that you should be. This is the way you should not be. Um, and a lot of trans youth have come to me saying, and he is pretty much, um, at risk of self harming because they are saying that because they don't identify one or the other, they must. [00:23:30] There must be something wrong with them. Um, and damage control for that sucks. So it's really counterproductive for people to say that you should be one or the other, and it being, um um, nowadays, there's a lot more education out there. Well, a lot more resources available with Google, you know, um you can research a lot more. Um, a lot of, um, youth are doing a lot of a lot more research now. Um, whereas [00:24:00] I was just winging it, um, I had no idea where to go, what to do first and stuff like that. But I had my nan by my side. So So So what did you do? How how did you kind of open up? Um, the street on the street. Um, I ended up on the street because, um, I started transitioning while I was going to, um, university. And, um well, it was, um, and [00:24:30] one of the sort of, um requirements to pass. The degree that I was studying was you had to pay either the male or female role on the. Now, I absolutely refused to stand up and do a court on the male role, but I wasn't allowed to do the And so, um, there was a bit of a conundrum there. I couldn't actually pass. I like to say I do, because I know that I could do either. Well, [00:25:00] easily. I've done them both before. Um, but because of the requirements of the to actually stand up and do an assessment to do that. Um, it was the only assessments. I failed. Therefore, I failed to gain my degree. Um, but I like to say I did, because I know I can do the two. No problem if I really, really had to. Um, and because of that, um, I just felt that, [00:25:30] you know, my, um, identity wasn't being affirmed. Um, So I went out looking for other people who were like me, and I found the Vienna Marion strap. And that was a place where, um, I found other people who were like me was like, uh, I knew for me, Um, and being out there, um, really affirmed my identity, especially when it came to men picking me up and paying me money and treating [00:26:00] me like a woman. Or how I thought a woman should be treated. Um, and, you know, really affirmed my identity, and that's what really made me comfortable and really sort of opened up a lot more and come into myself. I mean, there were quite a few things that happened while I was in the sex industry that, um I wasn't proud of, um and but in saying that some of my best memories have been on the street with [00:26:30] the other girls. Um, lots of laughs, lots of fun, lots of drunken debauchery. It was, um it was very interesting. I mean, we could sit here for hours, all the all the little mischief that we used to get up to, but, um, yeah, it it really sort of affirmed me and who I was. Um, and I just felt really comfortable. But then I got trapped in the industry because, [00:27:00] um, I tried gaining employment, Um, as a female, um, and it was just extremely difficult. So I thought this was really the only thing that I could do where I could be myself, um, without any sort of, you know, discrimination. I mean, obviously, I receive discrimination being out on the street from, like, passers by getting bottles thrown at us eggs and stones and rocks and stuff like that. But I mean, [00:27:30] and I, um, normal per se job. Um, you know, you couldn't exactly scream back abuse. Um, whereas out there you could throw a bottle back or throw a rock back or, um, you know, stuff like that. Whereas in sort of like working at McDonald's. You couldn't exactly say Oh, well, if you, you know, keep your bigger I don't care if I didn't get it right, you know, and you couldn't do that. [00:28:00] But, um, that's what I really actually loved about the job. I could actually just sort of, you know, give it back. And that's where I sort of felt I got trapped in it. Um, because I thought that that was the only place that I could actually be myself when it came to employment. Um, it's obviously not the case now, Um, there are some employers who still discriminate because of gender. Um, whether you're male or female as well, [00:28:30] um, especially in male dominated sort of, um, industries. Like when I was in the building controls industry. There was I worked for three months in that industry, and I went out on a building site to do an inspection. Um, and I actually ended up having to call the police because the builder didn't like me telling him how to do his job. So, yeah, I mean, there's still a lot of discrimination for males and females and trans [00:29:00] people, um, within the workplace, but yeah, the sex industry really sort of opened me up. And, um, I came into myself and got a lot more confident, um, with being myself, Um, it was a little bit hard. The hours were a bit, um, working long, long hours, starting at nine o'clock at night and finishing at 6 a.m. some mornings, making a shit load of money. [00:29:30] Um, literally thousands to, um, some nights making like I'd be lucky if I went home with $100 you know? So there was a lot of uncertainty, but it was a lot of fun. It was lots of fun, and I'd never change it, ever. The kind of discrimination that you've come across, do you think? Has it been, like, subtle discrimination, or has it been, like, really in your face? Um, a mixture of both? Definitely. Um, there's a lot of discrimination [00:30:00] that's sort of under the surface, like, um, I mean, a lot of people wouldn't really describe it as discrimination, but, um, you know, like, let's say, for example, a cisgender man or woman. Um, saying Oh, hello, darling. You know, with the limp wrist and all that kind of stuff, and it's like, Oh, you know, whatever. Um, it's really, [00:30:30] really annoying because they make all these assumptions that you're this way inclined and all that kind of stuff and, um, putting me into a box that I don't belong in. Um, and even now, some people still think that I'm just a gay guy in a dress, you know, um, but that's because of the lack of education around trans identities. Um, but yeah, it's and [00:31:00] the full on discrimination. You know, it's like walking down the street, and I'm just getting stares. Um, even just, you know, verbal abuse, you know? Oh, you fucking tranny and Ra ra ra. Just really nasty stuff. Um, and there's a bit, um, of discrimination from, um, Post operative trans people. It's like there's one, who's staying at transition [00:31:30] house at the moment. Who says Oh, well, you know, I'm the only one with a vagina here, so I'm the only real woman here, and it's like, OK, right. You know, you're Trans. Um, and you're saying that you're the only real woman you know, walking around. Oh, well, you know, I'm the only one with the vagina, So if you've got a Penis, you're a man, and it's like, Dude, [00:32:00] get a fucking grip. You know, it's like, Get over yourself. That's Yeah, that's, you know, because she started out a certain way, you know, and she still identified as female at that time. Um, and a lot of them forget that they started out a certain way, and as soon as they get their surgeries, they're, like, almost superior, you know, Um, but in general, [00:32:30] I'd say that the public is quite nice. Um, it's just, um just certain people with certain views. Um, especially when it comes to men. Um, supposedly straight heterosexual men. Um, those ones who I mean being in the sex industry for so long, you sort of learn how to sort of read men a little bit. And you you just can see in their eye. [00:33:00] You know, there's just this look about them that you can just tell whether or not they're giving you, you know, shit and discriminating you and stuff like that. For the most part, the ones who have the biggest problem about it are actually the ones who really want to take you home and sort of fuck you senseless like we want to be, um and that's happened quite a lot, you know? I mean, one time I was in a pub, Um, just casually, um, [00:33:30] and I was getting a lot of shit from this one guy. Um, I was just trying to be the big man in front of his friends, and then I you know, I went to go and leave, um, went to some chip shop, and, um, he comes around the corner and he Oh, I wanna go home. Excuse me? Yeah, and that happens quite a lot. Um, and like with females, um, it's [00:34:00] quite weird. Um, whenever I walk into a room, um, I can pick up on a bit of attention from females. Um, some of them, um, are really quite comfortable with having me in their presence. Um, some of them are quite intimidated for some reason. Um, I've been to, um, a wedding Where, um, there was this girl who had this huge [00:34:30] problem. As soon as I walked into a room, she just tightened her grip on her grip on her partner. And I was like, seriously, not my type. But she was so uncomfortable having me around thinking I was going to try and get into her partner, Um, that she just felt the need to sort of almost be a male and, you know, sort of territory in a in a way, um, and so have, [00:35:00] um, totally not my type, but that's the thing. Um, women and men assume that because I'm Trans, um, I want to get into them. You know, I'm a walking, talking, breathing fetish to a lot of people. Um, because of the, um, misconceptions around trans people. A lot of people still think that we're just, [00:35:30] like, sexual deviant, um, and medically, um, according to the American Psychiatric Association, um, it being a mental illness that is on par with paedophilia, Um, with the DS M five, um, the diagnostic standards of medical care. Um, and we are in the same section as paedophiles, and that's how [00:36:00] we get our diagnosis of being trans and stuff like that. So that's kind of hard to deal with, um, because I think that's discrimination from the medical profession, saying that being trained as a mental illness, Um, because in the past, being gay was in the DS M five, and it was classed as a mental illness as well. Um, and, uh, the [00:36:30] DM five is being looked at next year. And, like, there's a worldwide sort of, um, uh, call for it to be removed from the DS M five. Because when it comes to um gaining gaining the medical care necessary in order to fully transition, you have to be diagnosed with either gender identity disorder or gender dysphoria. I don't like the, um, because saying it's a disorder means there's [00:37:00] something wrong, you know? I mean, there's actually nothing wrong with being Trans and that that just reaffirms to a lot of people that being trans is wrong and that there's a problem with it, and that's where a lot of discrimination comes from. And if it's a disorder, then I'm assuming there would be some kind of what's the kind of treatment for that disorder? Um, the hormone replacement therapy is one way to treat this illness or this ailment. Um, [00:37:30] but until you get that diagnosis, you can't actually access any medical care. Um, and it is sort of well known within, um, the Harry Benjamin standards of care. That treatment of being trans, um, is, um, like medical intervention is necessary when it comes to hormone replacement therapy and surgery. But you will still be, um, classed as [00:38:00] transsexual. Um, unless you get your birth certificate changed and stuff like that. But you need a doctor to, um well, you need a whole bunch of medical professionals like psychiatrists, psychologists, um, doctors, all that kind of stuff, um, to provide support and to say and to provide evidence that you have, um, transitioned enough, um, [00:38:30] to be able to call be called female. So the medical profession are the gatekeepers to, um, being trans pretty much or to, um, people who want to transition from male to female or from female to male. It's up to them to say whether or not you've done it successfully or not. And that's discrimination in my in my view. You know, have you ever come across, um, medical people that say to you, or or or [00:39:00] that you've heard say to other people? Oh, actually, don't go down this route or, you know there's something in your head that's gone weird. I had a personal experience when I moved here to Christchurch. Um, I tried looking for a GP who, um, was happy to deal with me and that I was comfortable with dealing with them. Um, I visited five different GPS, um, five separate [00:39:30] fees, which is extremely expensive. Um, and one of the GPS actually said to me, Come back in a year and let's see how you feel, then, um, it could possibly just be a phase, you know? And it's like, Dude, eight years later, come on. You know, do you really want me to take my top off? Show you my Bos? And like, I really need a doctor who can deal with me, But he was bringing [00:40:00] his own sort of personal views into it. Um, because there are a lot of doctors who don't bring their own personal views into it. Um, whether it's religious or just personal. And this doctor, um, is Muslim, and I'd say that's where his sort of idea around it came from saying that it was wrong and stuff like that. Which is quite weird, because in Iran, um, they pay for [00:40:30] all your surgeries of all countries. You know, Iran, If you're if you identify as Trans and it's like, well, you have to get your surgery done, there's no other question. Otherwise, you die pretty much. Um, it's Yeah, it's quite strange, but yeah, um, lots of doctors actually bring their own personal things. And, well, some actually flat out refuse to work with trans people. [00:41:00] Um, here in Christchurch especially, um, there are endocrinologists. I'm her other one to, uh, prescribe hormones and all that kind of stuff who will not work with trans people who absolutely refuse to work with trans people. Um, whether it's fear or lack of knowledge or lack of experience. Um, but even telling them [00:41:30] that their best educators are their patients Because Trans people are actually having to educate, um, their doctors, um, around, um, transition and stuff like that because for the most part, most trans people who are wanting to transition from one gender to the other, um, have done their research and know exactly what they want, Um, and what they need in order to medically transition. Um, but some just [00:42:00] some medical professionals just don't want to borrow it. So how do doctors say? Actually, I'm not dealing with you. I mean, do they do they couch it in those kind of blunt terms or do they do like, um, no, I'm not interested in this case. I'm sorry. It's Yeah, um, some are like like that Muslim one. He did try to sort of her, but I'll come back in a year and we'll see how you feel then, stuff like that. So some can be quite blatant. But some can sort of, you know, [00:42:30] put fluff around it and really mollycoddle it and sort of try and be kind about it. And, uh, yeah, it's just ridiculous that that it really shouldn't be like that because GPS are your first port of call when it comes to your transition. Um, and that's where I think, um, a lot of, um, education within the med schools are really beneficial. I mean, I take a 45 minute workshop once a month with fourth year med students who are going to be [00:43:00] future GPS here in New Zealand if they don't end up buggering off overseas to get paid more, um, to educate them around the needs of trans people and, um, by the end of the workshops, um, they're pretty much armed with enough knowledge to be able to treat a trans people a trans person, um, with respect and dignity, because that's pretty much, um, all we want is to be treated with respect and dignity. And that is what any person [00:43:30] in New Zealand can expect from any medical professional is to be treated with respect and dignity. But some just don't do that with trans people. It's ridiculous. So at the end of those workshops, uh, do you have a hopeful feeling when you see the the the graduates or do you think, Oh, gosh, um, at the end of them, um, it really depends, because I mean, some some of my workshops are they ask some really, really good questions. Um, [00:44:00] and like, they really are interested in knowing. But for some of them, they just sit there. None of them take notes. Nothing. So it's really, really hard. And so I mean, I give them an opportunity to give me feedback, Um, by email and stuff like that. Um, and you know, most of the feedback I've received have been has been really, really positive. Um, And, um, there was this one who, [00:44:30] um emailed me and said that she's really looking forward to be able to work with Trans people, Um, which just made it all totally worth it. If I just make one trans friendly doctor in this country, it's just worth it, because there's not many, But you must have a list. Do you of Of really trans friendly doctors? I'm actually working with Nicky Wagner. Um, to, [00:45:00] um, start a network of trans friendly GPS here in Christchurch through health. Um, and then, um hopefully, Nicky and I will be, um, rolling that out nationwide. So a nationwide network of trans friendly, um, GPS so fingers crossed. That's been like a year in the making. So far, it must be a huge step forward as well. Actually, having the, um, medical university bringing you in every month, it's massive. It's absolutely [00:45:30] massive. Um, Otago University School of Medicine is the only school of medicine in New Zealand where gender identity has been specifically included in the curriculum. Um, unfortunately, it is in the, um, addiction medicine course. Um, so there's that I don't really like the association of, um, trans people and addiction, but it's a start, and it's specifically included in the curriculum. Um, I've [00:46:00] spoken with the Ministry of Health and, um, Ministry of tertiary education. And they've said that that's where I should be starting when it comes to getting it included because they can't actually direct me, um, schools of medicine to get it specifically included. So if one school of medicine does it, then another school of medicine should pick it up as well. Um, so it's a start, and hopefully the next president will work on this, um, momentum that's [00:46:30] been built. I'm wondering if you could talk about maybe the the the cultural considerations for trans people in New Zealand. Mhm like for you personally, Um, on a you've you've experienced that kind of stuff and I'm wondering how how does it fit into different cultures? Um, obviously, within most indigenous cultures, there is the male role, and there is the female [00:47:00] role. It's quite evident with the Maori culture. Um, with, um, trans people, there have been trans people who do play the female role on the and do and stuff like that. Um, but for the most part, definitely not. Um, there are the role of, um, trans people in the past, um, have been, um, the protectors of like, Children, [00:47:30] um, the cooks and stuff like that currently, like on a trans person, will be in the kitchen mostly, Um, and it's sort of playing the female role. Um, in sort of a really traditional sense, that sounds really bad. Um, but that's pretty much where Trans people are put on The when it comes to that is, um, in the kitchen. Um, but I think the kitchen's, [00:48:00] like, the best place to be ever, because that's where all the good gossip goes on and stuff like that. I love being in the kitchen on them and I I get the hoe that's coming up. I would much prefer being in the kitchen, but I'm kind of not allowed because I'm organising it. So, um, but yeah, um, the role really hasn't been defined. Traditionally, um, on the but within the, um, unit, um, we, um, have [00:48:30] traditionally been the ones who have looked after the Children, um, who have kept the home fires burning. Um, making sure sort of things in the village are sort of going well and smoothly. And we were at one point seen as, um very special special people. Um, and we were held in high regard within the Maori culture um, it wasn't until um uh, colonisation [00:49:00] started that, um, the western idea of it being wrong was born into, um, the Maori culture. Um, but that's only because of, um, the, um, experiences that the colonisers had in the Pacific Islands. Um, when they were going through the Pacific islands and making their way through New Zealand, they, um, were stopping around. And, um, you'll notice that in the Pacific Islands, there were, [00:49:30] um, being, for example, is still quite a you're held in quite high regard in some way being, and now is sort of like the word for Demi God. And that's the identity for for trans people in Tahiti is, um and, uh, the Europeans who were going through the Pacific Islands sort of encountered and Mau people [00:50:00] and, um, to their sort of disdain a little bit. And then they got to New Zealand. Um, and then they were presented with, um with trans people Maori, trans people, um, to sort of, you know, um please them and all that kind of stuff. And then because of their experiences in the islands, they were like, Hang on. Wait, wait. We know what you are. This isn't right. We're gonna stamp this out. [00:50:30] So, um yeah, it was, at one point, highly regarded. Um, but once the Western ideas and Western civilization started in New Zealand, it was pretty much, um, and the missionaries, you know, saying it was wrong. And then, um, yeah, that's where um, trans people, uh, Maori trans people were sort of, um, taken off [00:51:00] their their were well, the high ranking was taken away from them within within the units because of western ideas and stuff like that. But you'll notice that over in the Pacific Islands that are still affirmed and held in quite high regard because they were such small islands, they thought, Why? Colonise, you know, But we'll go to New Zealand and sort of like, Yeah, we know what you are. We we've already encountered this. We don't like this, so we'll get rid of it, try to anyway. [00:51:30] But, um, yeah, it was quite funny when I heard that because one of my friends is doing a bit of research on on, um, on a traditional sort of roles for trans people in indigenous cultures, which is fantastic. And enough to told me all this so I was quite amused. Oh, yeah. True. Uh, yeah, because I'm really interested in in terms of how you know, this kind of information and the way that history either [00:52:00] promotes, um stories or suppressor stories for you. How have you found finding kind of trans history in New Zealand? Have you been able to kind of learn? Yeah, I've pretty much just winged it. Really. Um, and I've learned along the way, um, my name's been helpful. Um, a lot of friends have been helpful. Um, like my friend is doing, [00:52:30] Um, uh, her her honours in Maori history, Um, has been focusing, um, quite a lot on trans people. And I've got quite a lot of information from her. Um, and just, um, even online resources are there, amazingly, you know, whereas 10 years ago, they just weren't There was nothing around there. Um, but yeah, most of my knowledge comes from other people. [00:53:00] Um, I've learned from other people, and, um, just sat there and listened to them. Um, when? Because if you listen to your to the older people, um, they've got a lot of stories to tell and they've got a lot of knowledge on the history of trans identities in New Zealand. Um, but not many young people want to sit down and listen. You know, they're like, you know, and sit down five minutes. Talking to an old person is more than enough for them. [00:53:30] And I was like, But if you sit there for a few hours, you know there's quite a lot that can come out, you know? And I absolutely love listening to, um the older people, um, talk about their history and their knowledge. Um, so I think it's quite beneficial, because if they don't, um, somebody doesn't listen. Then it'll just be lost because for the most part, most of their knowledge is just up here and they won't write it down, you [00:54:00] know? So, um, that's where I've learned a lot of it was from the older trans community. Is there a lot of intergenerational connection between and the trans community? In what sense? Well, just, for instance, sitting down talking socialising is there are there, like events that bring the breadth of the trans community together? Not as much as they should be. Um, [00:54:30] there's specifically youth groups where only youth are are allowed to go Um, And then there's, um, Organisations where all are welcome like and gender, um, and gender bridge. Um and, um, it's kind of lacking, in a way, the sort of spectrum of age, um, when it comes to support, [00:55:00] because trans youth have no interest. Really? Generally, I'm speaking generally not for the most part, but just generally, trans youth have really no interest in sort of socialising with older people. It's like, Oh, shame, You know, it's quite sad. Really. Um uh, but in saying that, um, quite a lot of, um, youth groups are, um, quite weary about having their youth, [00:55:30] um, interacting with older people. Um, and because apparently there's a lot of safety issues and stuff like that, and which is fair enough I can understand that, um, and that's just keeping to the code of ethics when it comes to youth work. Um, but, um, it is lacking quite a lot when it comes to interacting. Um, the younger, um the younger population with the older, older trans people. [00:56:00] Um, and there should be more. There should be more. Um, so with the gender, what's the age range for? The membership for all? It's for all, but generally the membership is older. Um, but, I mean, we do cater to all ages. Um, whether you're 10 or 100 years old. Yeah. Are you getting 10 year olds coming to you? Uh, the youngest I have interacted with was 12, [00:56:30] um, and he's he's funny. Should never, ever, ever let a 12 year old name themselves. It's a very interesting name, but because this is going on public record, I'm not going to name them. I'm pretty sure he knows who he is. Um, yeah, um, it's, I mean and trans identities are being affirmed a lot more now than [00:57:00] they were 10 years ago. So it's a lot. I'll say it's easier for them. It's still hard. Um, but if they've got the right support around them, it's, uh it can be a lot easier now because there's a lot more information out there for them and for their parents as well. So yeah. So what is it like for you when you're interacting with, say, a 12 year old and and they are coming to this a lot sooner [00:57:30] than you did. What? What goes through your head? I wish that my parents sort of knew about it a lot earlier, because I remember, um, actually saying to my mother when I was four years old that I wanted to be a girl. Um, she has conveniently forgotten that, um, but it's in my Plunket book, so I don't remember you saying that, [00:58:00] but it's right here in my Plunket book. Read it. You wrote it. Um, and I just really wish that, um, in the past that there was more information out there. And I think, um, the youth now are really, really lucky to be able to have the kind of access to the resources that are there to inform, um, to make it easier, um, for for their parents and for their families. [00:58:30] I mean, obviously, there are still a lot of difficulties with coming to terms with losing, um, a child to another identity, and I can totally understand that. But, um, because of the there's more resources available and more information available, the transition for parents can be a lot easier than what it was about 10 years ago. I guess one of the big things that may help would be things like the national which [00:59:00] is coming up. Can you tell me about that? Yeah. Um well, it's going to be awesome. Uh, it's the first time it's ever been held on a marae. Um, and the whole thing about holding it on a is, um a is a place where people can come and discuss and be a and that's the thing, because the trans community is a in itself, and we're inviting family members, [00:59:30] um, of trans people to come along as well. Um, and I really love it being on a because, I mean the word, um, it was original originally, um, and the is the third eye, and all the information goes in through the third eye, goes into your head, it gets discussed. And, um, you know, decisions are made in your head about things, and that's what I love about having it on the is that you go [01:00:00] into a, um you can discuss things, talk about things, and decisions can be made And, um, you know, and you can just make your own decisions about who you are and all that kind of stuff. Um, but my parents are coming down to talk about their experiences of having me as their child. Um, I'm shit scared about having them there because they're holding a panel, Um, on the Sunday, um, but the first [01:00:30] day of the, um of the which is Saturday, Like we're having the opening night on Friday. Um, and then on the Saturday, um, is more informative. We're having, um, got somebody from internal Affairs coming to talk about getting, um, a gender change on your passport. Changing your name and just real practical stuff. Um, we've got a, um, human rights, um, senior policy development person coming down to talk about, [01:01:00] um, the, uh, process to go through the family courts to get your gender changed on your birth certificate. Um, got a, um, who else is coming? A Jackson. She is the manager of the high cost treatment pool. Um, which is, um, the funding through the Ministry of Health that funds gender reassignment surgery. Um, which they do three every two years for, um, trans [01:01:30] women like myself and one every two years for trans guys. Female. Um, and she's coming to talk about the process of how to get the funding for that and how to get on the waiting list and all that kind of stuff. Um, unfortunately, it's like a seven year waiting list at the moment. Um, and there is, um, somebody coming from the Otago University School of Medicine, talking about, um, endocrinology. He's a senior lecturer in endocrinology, and he's got a lot of experience [01:02:00] with with trans patients. Um, he works out of Wellington. Um, and he's coming down to talk about, um, hormones and dosages. How he comes to his decisions on how much to give a trans person. Um, what, to diagnose the art, what to prescribe them with, um, just general information about hormones, side effects, all that kind of stuff. Just real practical stuff on the first day. Um, on the second day, um, we've got sort of more [01:02:30] interactive stuff, like, um, a voice therapy coach. Um, she's, um, internationally, um, known for her voice therapy. She's doing her PhD, um, here in Christchurch. Um, she's like she's European. She's got, like, a mixture of all these different accents. Like, um, she's got a mixture of, like, Hungarian Swiss German accent. It's she's a linguist. She's amazing. Via [01:03:00] pap is her name. Um, and she's coming along and doing voice therapy sessions for both, um, male, Trans and female Trans. Um, and we've got a makeup extraordinaire, makeup and stylist extraordinaire. She's the chairperson of Virgin Christchurch, actually, Um, and she's doing a makeup demonstrations, and she's gonna get a, um, girl from the audience to do her make up and all that kind of stuff and make them feel fabulous. [01:03:30] Um, there's going to be a little shop where people can go shopping because that's one big thing that, um, trans people find quite hard to do is to go into a shop and shop for clothes or shoes or makeup or anything, just anything to do with retail. Because when it comes to, um, like going to like the, you know, mainstream sort of department stores and stuff like that, Um [01:04:00] and like like the stores like Glass or Helen and stuff like that, there's usually really young people working there. So, um, it's really hard to sort of, um, they may have no experience with trans people and be quite up about it, you know, and can discriminate. Or, you know, there have been some people who have been denied access to the female changing rooms and, um, farmers [01:04:30] for example, um, even though they were trying on female clothes, they weren't allowed into the female changing rooms because, um, because our trends, you know, um and that was like a big thing and like they contacted, like head, office or farmers and sorted it out. And farmers, like, initiated a policy because of that. But, um, that's why we're having a shop there as well. So people can feel comfortable to just browse, browse the clothes, browse makeup, accessories [01:05:00] and stuff like that because that's a huge thing for some Trans people not being able to go out and do shopping, um, for themselves and find find themselves some really nice clothes. Um, a lot of them, um, unfortunately, find some really bad clothes because, I mean, there are some who, like secondhand shops, are really quite nice because, um, they are run by old ladies and stuff and who volunteer their time. Um, and old ladies can be really, really lovely. [01:05:30] Um, but, um, the clothes that some, um, aren't exactly nice. Um, it's almost like some mutton dressed as lamb. Um and that's where there are some advantages to going to those mainstream shops because they are young, they can dress people appropriately, but it's, um [01:06:00] quite scary because they're not sure how they're going to react. Um, and that's why we're having the shop there. Um, and my parents are holding their panel and talking about their experiences and opening up the floor to questions about how they dealt with it and stuff like that. Have you ever heard of that? They've never expressed. No, No. So it's going to be the first time I ever hear it. It's going to be interesting. Um, I'll just sit [01:06:30] in the back corner and it's gonna be, Yeah, I'm really, really scared, actually, but, um, it's all right. Um, there are some people who really need to hear it, like there are going to be some other parents of trans people. So, um, mom and Dad are really open about talking about that kind of stuff. Um, and have only recently in, like, the past year or two have started to really open up and really want to learn about it and stuff like that. And, um, bringing [01:07:00] them along is going to be really beneficial for other parents or trans people because there are some who have only just come out to their parents, and the parents are finding there's a huge lack of support for them. Um, so having my mom and dad come along, um, to be able to interact with others and because I've been transitioning, um, for what's this year? 2012, Almost 10 years now. So it's taken mum and Dad about [01:07:30] 89 years to sort of start to come around. Um, they don't call me by my name, though. They just call me my darling. Um, but, yeah, it's cool that they don't use sort of my, um, birth name in front of me. I know they do it, like in, like with their friends and other members of the family, but in front of me, they don't call me by my birth name, which is fantastic. It's [01:08:00] a huge thing for them to do that, Um, but yeah, having them along would be really beneficial. It it's really, really scary, though I'm just kind of looking forward to it. Kind of not. Um, but I'm also holding a panel, um, as well, um, with, uh, a young Trans guy called Connor from Wellington. Um, and we're going to be talking about our experiences with our parents. So it's a bit of a two way sort of [01:08:30] thing, how we wish we were treated and how we would like other parents to sort of open up, um, sort of thing. But Connor is going to be starting off with, like, a letter to his parents, and he'll be reading that letter. I don't think his parents will be coming, though. But, um, for any other parents that are going to be there, it'll be really beneficial for them to hear it. So they know, sort of, in a way, how to treat their child, [01:09:00] you know, in a really respectful and dignified way. Um, and I'll be joining him on the panel and taking questions and stuff like that, Um, which I think would be very beneficial for the parents and for, um, uh, the other attendees as well. We're having somebody talking about gender queer, um, which is an identity that's, um, not particularly recognised at all. [01:09:30] Um, which is quite sad. Um, especially within the trans community. Gender queer is actually pushed to the side. I mean, I, I myself am quite ignorant. To what gender queer is and stuff like that, even How would you define it? Um hm. To my knowledge. Well, according to what I know, um, Gender queer would be somebody who is happy to identify [01:10:00] this way in certain social situations, but happy to identify another way and other social situations. Um, pretty much androgynous. Somebody who's, um, neither one nor the other, Um, or even outside any of those identities. Um, somebody who's quite gender fluid, who's quite happy with whatever, um comes their way when it comes to yeah, social situations [01:10:30] and stuff like that. But there again, you know, I'm completely ignorant to it all. And that's specifically gender, not sexuality. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And that's the same as being Trans. Really. Um, because I mean, there are trans people, trans women who identify as lesbian. There are trans men who identify as gay. Um, so it's being trans is all about gender has nothing to do [01:11:00] with sexuality but trying to get other people to understand that it is kind of hard, especially parents. I've tried to explain it to them, but hopefully this how it will be really, really beneficial for them to actually realise that um It's two completely different things, but they do run parallel. You know, gender and sexuality do don't run parallel with each other, but they are two completely different things. So yeah, fingers crossed. Can you recall the first time [01:11:30] you were ever in a big gathering like of trans people And what that was like, You know, in terms of how how did it make you feel? Yeah, Um, it was last year. I had never been to a trans before in my life. Um, it was March the 16th, 2011. Um, it was the day before [01:12:00] the human rights, um, at the art games last year, Um, and there were over 100 trans people from all around the world who came to the It was run by Jack Burn. Um, fantastic. Fantastic guy. Um and it was It was It was I was going through a huge range of emotions because of the earthquake. I just lost [01:12:30] my house. Um, the day before, I'd, um, just found out that, um uh I lost a friend in the C TV building, so I was just all over the place that day. Um couldn't really focus and all that kind of stuff, but, um, hearing a lot of stories from different countries and stuff like that about how their countries treat them. Um, and how what they go through? It was [01:13:00] I felt really lucky to be a New Zealand citizen. You know, um, it was funny because there were, um it was it was a huge range of people. Um, like they were young, they were old. Um, and when I say old, I'm talking elderly trans people. Um, there were people from Nepal, Hong Kong, Singapore, um, Malaysia [01:13:30] people from all around the world. And it was just the most diverse group of people that I've ever met in my life. Um, it was my very first ever trans specific gathering. I'd been to, um, and the biggest gathering of trans people in New Zealand to date. I think, um, and yeah, it was just it was just amazing. I had so much fun, even though I was going through all those emotions [01:14:00] of losing my friends in the C TV building, losing my house. Um, not knowing what my future held because of the earthquakes and losing absolutely everything. Um, but to be there and amongst people who are like me just made me feel like calm calm to me a little bit after going through all the shit that went down on 22nd of Feb. Um, it was Yeah. It [01:14:30] sort of gave me a bit of strength to sort of carry on a bit because listening to a lot of stories from, um, people from around the world and what they're going through sort of made me think. Well, don't give out. You know, um, it was it was awesome. It was awesome. But I did actually end up relapsing, Um, because I'm a recovering addict. Um, and I did actually end up relapsing that night. Um, and the next day, I actually had to [01:15:00] speak at the human rights conference. Um, I did fulfil my speaking duties. Um, and I ended up like in express magazine. I was thinking it was going to be a tiny wee photo like that. It was half a bloody page. I was like, Oh, my God. And I was high as a kind because I'm a recovering methodic. Um and, um, yeah, it was It was a pretty hardcore [01:15:30] hardcore day and night and day and night and day. Um, but after that, um, I was actually invited along to take part in Utopia and Forge, Um, which really sort of, um, gave me more purpose to actually carry on, um, and continue with my work and move back to Christchurch. Um, because I I sort of made the decision [01:16:00] after I'd found out that my that my mate had died in C TV building. Um, I just thought, Fuck this. I'm never going back to Christchurch. But then I got invited to take part in utopian Forge. Um, and to help these kids, Um, which was really something I needed to do something selfless. And this gave me that opportunity. Um, so really Utopia and Forge saved me. [01:16:30] And it wasn't a gender. It was utopian and force that really saved me. Um, and yeah, I'm just really, really grateful to the person who invited me along to take part. Um, and we'd only just met the day before at, um, the high, Um, and for him to sort of say that even though I was going through all that bullshit, um, underneath all that, um was just really sort of [01:17:00] Wow, you know. You know, I owe that boy my life. Really? Um, and we'll see it. Sorry. I always get choked up when I talk about that. Um, yeah, he was Yeah, he really actually saved my life at that point. And I, um, a hell of a lot, Yes.
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