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Books for a Queer Existence by Mark, published by Mesa University Press. Um, And tonight we've got to speakers with us as well. We've got Anna Brown, um, representing herself and also [00:00:30] Nicola from Massey University Press. Um, and Fran Wilde is here as well. Um, so this is pretty amazing night in more ways than one, because we've got, uh Oh. Sorry. It was a bit jazzy, wasn't it? Yeah. Um, this is amazing for us to be having this event tonight because A we [00:01:00] Unity launched his first book. Men alone men together. That was in 2010. Um, so this a passage, Um, that marks keeping up with with the cultural sort of values and surroundings that are happening here in a So it's really important for that reason. And also, this is our first event. Um, you know, level two, that sort of thing. So it's amazing to have all of you here nicely spaced out, [00:01:30] all marked up. It's really endearing. So thank you all for coming. Um, so, first of all, we've got, um, Mark having to speak. Um, then an And then finally, Fran, there may be an opportunity if we've got time for some open mic moments from people. Um perhaps who were in the first book? Um, and then the books will be available, uh, for purchase if you want to buy them, and they've been signed. But Mark is happy to [00:02:00] just do a special message for you as well. So without more from me, let's give a warm welcome to Mark and thank you to Unity Books and to Marion for the opportunity to be here tonight. And to celebrate the launch of this book, we'd actually like to start with Anna Brown from Massey University Press. Um, so I I welcome Anna to to [00:02:30] speak. Jacinda takes her mask off, so I think we can, uh um I'm the chair of Massey University Press. And this evening I'm going to speak on my behalf. And on behalf of Nicola, the publisher of Massey University Press. So, uh, Nicola sends her welcomes and greetings from level three, where life goes on and on. Uh, Nicola is very sorry to not be here [00:03:00] in Wellington tonight for this launch, Um, but is happy that it's going ahead and thanks very much to Marian and Unity and their willingness to host an event under Level two protocols and to keep everybody safe. Uh, Nicola sends her, um, greetings and says, I wish we could have offered you a drink to salute Mark, but such are the times we live in. So let's just celebrate and lift our hands to Mark. Uh, thank you for being here this evening. Uh, it's [00:03:30] potentially a smaller crowd than if we'd staged this event in level one. But we know that many other people are here in spirit. I remember around 18 months ago this book coming across our desks at the Massey University, uh, press meetings and the proposal to acquire this book was enthusiastically received and agreed. We wish to thank Dame Fran Wild for agreeing to launch the book this evening and for putting up with our many date changes as we dealt with the fluid, [00:04:00] covid level issues that have dogged us since September when this book was meant to be published. I'm sure you'll agree that when that Dame Fran has been absolutely pivotal to our current legislative situation. The framework of this book is conversations with young men born after the passing of the homosexual law reform act. Many people worked so hard to ensure that act was passed. But without Dame Fran's actions within government in the first place, it would never have progressed at that time. Thank you to the remarkable [00:04:30] young men who spoke candidly to mark and shared their lives with him. That takes courage and conviction, and we don't underestimate the magnitude of that decision. I'm sure that helped that mark, uh, they would have encountered a new a gentle, sincere spirit, someone determined to bring about this unique and important documentary project in a manner that has integrity, respect and wisdom. Today, in a review of the book, [00:05:00] UH, site David, Hi said about a queer existence. Having grown up in an era where images and autobiographies of this nature did not exist, a queer existence documents lives that might not be entirely new to me, but are certainly more change than I could have once hoped. Its existence alone is significant. It's perspective is important. That is certainly what drew us to this book and fired our determination to work with Mark to publish it. Mark, [00:05:30] we have loved working with you, and it has been a great pleasure and privilege every step of the way. This is a legacy project of which you can truly be proud. Uh, we want to thank Ross for his support of Mark. We don't often don't pause at book launches to think of the many people who are there for our authors during those times when a book became all consuming. But they truly deserve our thanks. Thank you. Also, to those who gave the financial support that made this project possible. [00:06:00] It has one been one of those. It takes a village projects so ably helmed by an outstanding researcher, writer and photographer. Thank you, Mark and Bravo. We now look forward to welcoming you to the microphone. Thank you, Anna, and thank you to everyone who's here today. This day has been a long time coming. It's 10 years since I first contemplated [00:06:30] the idea of doing a project like this of recording the experiences of gay more gay men born since the passing of the Homosexual Law Reform Act in 1986. And it's not uncommon now to speak of people who don't realise that there was a time when sex between men was a criminal offence that could have technically resulted in imprisonment. Indeed, that was the experience of one of the people in the book who until the time that, uh, someone approached him to see if he'd be interested in the project [00:07:00] didn't realise that there had been that era, that there had been that significant change in in New Zealand's legislative framework. And that's to say nothing of the lack of knowledge of the dramatic, um events, the the the demonstrations in the streets and the social polarisation that accompanied the campaign for law reform. Other participants in the project. They were much more aware of our [00:07:30] our his history and of the historical background to their own lives as one of them, Kerry Donovan Brown said. After moving to Wellington and becoming more comfortable with my sexuality, I started appreciating my queer ancestors and the struggle they had in creating the opportunities and well being that are available to me. Now Fran is going to speak a little about the law reform campaign, and from this perspective of the book, it was a symbolic turning point around which to frame these [00:08:00] lives. It was a symbolic turning point at which to to start the recording of a different era. We would like to think in our history there have been dramatic shifts in the social acceptance of a whole range of different ways of being in terms of sexual orientation and gender expression. And one of the things I say in the introduction to the book is that it's very easy when something has become routine, when something's become part of the framework of society to stop paying [00:08:30] attention to it, to stop noticing it. The analogy that I use is that if if you're overseas on holiday, you take photographs of everything you see, you take photographs of. If you're in Vienna, you take photographs of people having coffee in the square, whereas back home in Wellington you we pay no attention to those sorts of things. And so it is with gay lives, perhaps that in this era where gay people are so much part of the fabric of society, it's [00:09:00] very easy to forget that the the world we live in, where same sex relationships are recognised, where there's, you know, the the same sex people can marry where our human rights are protected. It's very easy to forget that this is quite a unique period in the history of the at least the English speaking Western European cultural tradition that that we've inherited. And we know that pre prior to [00:09:30] colonisation attitudes of Maori towards same sex relationships appeared to have been very different and much more accepting. But in the context of our English speaking culture, this is a unique moment. And so now that it's no longer remarkable to be gay. I thought it was still important to document these experiences, to have AAA record of what it was like for at least some of these people, some of these guys growing up. [00:10:00] And I'd just like to comment on some of my other things I was interested in. As I said about doing the beginning this project, I was interested to find out exactly how different the experiences of these gay or queer men who had been born since law reform, how different those experiences were from their forebears, and whether it really was easier to live now than in the past to live a life that gave expression to that drive or longing for intimate connection with someone of one's own sex. [00:10:30] I was curious about the earliest manifestations of those desires and what sense people made of them. I wanted to know what it was like to grow up. In an era where HIV aids had been so strongly linked to expressions of gay sexuality, I wondered what awareness this new generation had of these events in history. And from a theoretical perspective, I wanted to explore the relationship between a person's evolving sense of self and the prevailing social discourses or narratives [00:11:00] around same sex desire and its expression. So those were some of the things that were on my mind as I began this project, and I won't speak for too long. But I started it as part of a master of fine arts at Auckland University, uh, back in 2012, and then I carried on working on the project since then, and I'm so pleased now that it's come to come to fruition. Part of my motivation, as I said, was a documentary one. [00:11:30] But I also see this book as a vehicle, or I offer this book as a vehicle for promoting understanding and empathy, and I hope it will provide a way into the experiences and the lives of the people whose stories I've been privileged to share. What I wanted to do was to open up a world to the lived experience, the subjective experience of growing up in a world and growing up with the experience of [00:12:00] knowing sexual and romantic and emotional yearning for the companionship of of someone of one's own own sex. And I wanted to open up those experiences and provide a window into those. And so I've tried to do that both with the stories and with the photographs. And so I hope that this book will not only record the experiences of the people in it [00:12:30] but enrich and deepen the understanding and empathy of family, of friends, of teachers, of parents, of counsellors and of everyone else in the world who might be reading this and who might be engaging with with all of us actually in in this world in this society, I've mentioned in the preface or the introduction that belatedly, I became aware. As I was editing the stories, I became aware [00:13:00] of so many resonances with my own experience, and that certainly wasn't the reason for doing the book. But I realised that there are so many commonalities between these these guys stories and what I lived through, even though it was a generation earlier and what so many other gay men have lived through. And my own experience was a very in in many ways, uh, not an easy journey growing [00:13:30] up in a Pentecostal Christian church and having the experience at 19 or so of falling deeply in love with a man from the church and then coming to the point where this was such an internal contradiction between feeling I'm a Christian and yet I'm in love with a man that this was something I almost couldn't live with. Uh, that took me to the verge of suicide, to be honest at that age of 19 or 20 it was many years before I work that [00:14:00] through to come to the point of, uh, embracing who I am. And so I want to pave a way, I suppose, for people to accept and understand themselves in a greater degree. And so there are all those complex and interweaving reasons behind doing a project like this. And yet, as it is in the end, I hope it will stand as a as a historical record and as a worthwhile, worthwhile project. [00:14:30] I've got a huge number of thanks to give to people. Firstly, I want to thank all of the participants in the project because it is such an act of courage and bravery to share something of your or so much of your own life. And to put that on public record. So in particular, I think there are a few people who are here tonight. Uh, I think I saw. And, uh, and Neil is here. Uh, Anthony, is there anyone else that I've forgotten or haven't [00:15:00] mentioned? Who's here? Van was going to be here, but I'm not sure that he is. Oh, yes. Hi. Thanks. So to you guys who are here tonight, thank you very much. And to all the ones who are not here. Thank you as well for your Yeah, your generosity and courage. Of course, I'd like to thank Anna and I owe a huge, um, depth of thanks to Nicola Leggett at Massey University Press who not only has been the publisher, but the editor [00:15:30] and worked so hard with me to bring these these these stories into into the shape that you see them see them now, Um, also the other members of the team at Massey Massey University Press. Um, I'd like to thank everyone who introduced me to people, and Francis is one of the ones who introduced me to someone, and there may be other people here who've introduced me to to people. So thank you to all of you. I'd like to thank uh, James Gilbert, who's been a longtime [00:16:00] supporter of my photographic career. He's exhibited some of the photographs for this project in his gallery at Photos Space, uh, and who who certainly helped with the the editing of the images and my thanks to to John Williams, a long time long, long standing friend who's taking the photographs here, who's sort of been with me through all my various projects that I've worked on. I'd like to thank the people who've offered financial support to the to the book and again of the ones who are here tonight. I think there's Hank and John. [00:16:30] Thank you, Uh, Des and John, uh, Ross and Jason, Anthony and Dirk and Jan. So if there's anyone else who's here tonight that I haven't spotted thank you to as well uh, thanks to you To Chris Brickle for writing the forward, uh, to creative New Zealand for, um, supporting me at various stages during during this work, uh, to unity books for hosting this event to Fran for for launching it to Ross, my partner, um, [00:17:00] for his forbearance and to all those friends and who've shared in this journey over the over the years. So again, a huge thanks to all of those people. And I'd like to welcome Fran to speak. Just leave it next. Well, um, Marian and Unity Team, thanks for having us. This is just another one of your fabulous [00:17:30] events. You are known in Wellington, this bookshop in Wellington and in New Zealand. Um so Mark and Anna, um, everybody here tonight. I just want to particularly acknowledge the, um, guys who are in the book. This is pretty brave. It doesn't matter how quietly or or law abidingly you're living. Having this sort of stuff written about you must be pretty hard. So I really want to acknowledge your, um, [00:18:00] commitment and bravery and agreeing to Obviously this guy's a real bully. He got you into it, but, um, thank you very much. for doing this. I. I, um this book is really interesting. I read it and had a lot of mixed feelings. I don't want to talk a long time about law reform. What happened? But of course, a lot of you here tonight don't know what happened. And you won't remember a guy called Muldoon or what New Zealand was like before. You know, like, a long time ago. Um, [00:18:30] it was pretty bad. And there are people here tonight who worked on the campaign. I have to acknowledge, Des, who came into the office at Parliament into my office. I was one of the whips every night practically and did all the mail outs because we didn't have social media, which is probably a good thing in those days. Um, actually, I'm not sure how this would have gone if we'd had social media then, but we did a lot of mail outs and we used Hm. Yes, [00:19:00] yes, that's right. We had telephone trees we had like, you wouldn't believe what we did. We had speakers all over the country. Yada ya So dear And John, I think we were the first people married after the marriage equality Bill. Civil union. Sorry. Wrong one. Yes. And I think that's Gavin under that blue mask. Is that you, Gavin? This is all right. It's really hard these days to recognise people in the street. Um, because you really need the mouth and the smile, [00:19:30] I think, to make it work. But, um so, Anna, thanks for publishing and Nico. I want to acknowledge her. Um, So when this bill was going through Parliament, um, gay men in New Zealand were illegal citizens, and most of them were living very quiet lives. I grew up in Wellington, and I were when I was a teenager, I if I'd thought about it, which I didn't I probably would have said, I don't know any gay people. [00:20:00] Actually, I did. I realised later, um, but they were not, um, either self iying publicly or identified. And, um, you know, we had Uncle Mac, who was a bachelor living by himself and a quiet life. I think, um uh, I suspect he he probably didn't have a partner. I mean, it was just would have been too hard, actually, in those days, and the penalties were too [00:20:30] great. So, um, when the, um uh, I thank you for the intro, too, Which was really helpful Was good. All that perspective about all the other, um, people before who had done the work, which was really important, I have to say, and you know, the Dorian Society and the various manifestations of things. It was really helpful because, um, we were at a stage where we had to have that law change. Um, but it was still hard. So the fundamentalist Christians were really, [00:21:00] um, vehemently opposed. They were funded. They had people sent over. Um, it was a major campaign that we did. I actually went over to New York in the middle of the campaign to try and work out. I mean, we things were not going well at one stage, and so I wanted to talk to people there and find out how they were managing the issues there, and it was really helpful. But, um, it was, um, just it wasn't quite the same as the Springbok tour, [00:21:30] which had a lot of street mobilisation. Although there were demos. There were a lot of, um, big public meetings that got pretty unruly. And I remember at one stage, driving round and around when you could drive around the town hall when there was a meeting going on here, knowing all my mates were inside and and wondering what the thing was going on, you know, was there violence what was happening to them? And this was a big meeting held by the fundamentalists, and they'd gone to disrupt it, which is good, although I did not [00:22:00] want too much disruption because I wanted our people to be seen to be, you know, the the, um, have the kind of moral superiority, you know, over the fundamentalist Christians. But, um, it was it was actually pretty ghastly, I think for the guys at that stage. So the real heroes of gay law reform were the men who came out and visibility was absolutely key. We knew that most New Zealanders probably [00:22:30] wrongly thought they didn't know any gay men. And so there was this stereotype that gay men were child molesters, which of course, is completely untrue. Statistically, child molesters are generally heterosexual men who are family members. And that's the the the most common. Um, you know, profile. But most a lot of New Zealanders didn't understand that. So we needed not only to have the medical people who helped us in the and the clergy [00:23:00] who helped us, and we did have them and the legal people and you know, everybody and, you know, there there were a lot of people, the professionals who helped with information and who declared, you know, important facts. But actually, we also needed people to be seen to be gay and seem to be not child molesters. So when people started coming out, there was kind of astonishment. Almost people. Oh, there's Charlie [00:23:30] or John or somebody I work with somebody I work with, Um, my neighbour, my old schoolmate, my brother, my son or my husband, actually, And that was what happened. So we had people all over the country suddenly finding that they not only knew a gay man or men, but actually closely related in some cases. And it was so powerful you just couldn't imagine the impact [00:24:00] that that had on people because it completely destroyed the stereotypes that that that had been built up and that were being reinforced by the people opposing this legislation. So I just want to I always say this when I speak this is the single most important thing. And, you know, I cannot acknowledge strongly enough how, um how, um seminal that was in getting this legislation through. And it was a close vote. You don't want to get too much closer than that in parliament, because [00:24:30] then you're getting one each way. Um, but we we we got there in the end. So reading this for me was really interesting because I knew that because we didn't get the human rights part of the bill through, we had to leave that that was almost like the insurance policy that some of the MP S we kind of knew they weren't going to vote for it. And But they saw voting that part down as being insurance for them for their in their electorate. Oh, well, you know, I we [00:25:00] had to decriminalise, but we're not gonna make you employ gay men or have them in your, you know, your motel or anything like that. Uh, but and we knew we just had to come back another day and get that through. And Catherine O'Regan did that. And I want to acknowledge her too. She was a national party MP and she helped, and she fought very hard for this, but and so we knew we it wasn't complete. But we did think that, um, decriminalisation [00:25:30] would give a platform for more men just to be able to be themselves. And gradually, we hoped over, You know, I hoped. Anyway, over the years, the stereotypes might go, and there might be more acceptance. So, reading this, first of all, I was really shocked that actually, um, a lot of the guys interviewed for Mark's book were saying the same thing as probably other older men would say, um, about their childhood. [00:26:00] And I just want to read one bit, which was particularly, I mean, I was very when I read this, I was very depressed. I was reading this in bed, and at night I was reading a bit, you know, every night and and I read this and Oh, God, you know what? So what happened to New Zealand? This is is it is Are you here? Is that you? I can't see because you got a mask on. Anyway, You're older now than the photo. So are you Says the idea would be that sexuality wouldn't matter. That if [00:26:30] a boy found out at 14 or 15 that he wanted a boyfriend. Then he'd just do it and it wouldn't even be a be a thing. Absolutely. That was what I thought, too. Everyone would just accept that people are gay or straight. But that's years in the future. And this was in 2012 that that comment was made. Oops, Um, I hate that I had to hide who I was. All through high school. I didn't go through all the gay bullying and trauma that other kids do. But I regret that for the majority of my life so far, because I've only been out for three [00:27:00] or four years, had to cover up and lie to people and not be who I was during your school years. You do a lot of your growing up, and there's a whole bunch of it that I didn't do then and I'm doing now. And that was kind of a theme that I think came through here, and it's it was for me. It was really depressing because it meant that our society hadn't moved on as much as I thought it might, but it does add up to what I have observed that schools are still very dangerous places for kids and [00:27:30] kids that are gay or trans or in any way not, you know, absolutely straight. Probably. Our school environment in New Zealand has not is not yet even 10 years after you said that working for them. And, um um, I don't know what the answer is. I do think we need more, uh, leadership on this from educators, but also, parents who are good need to be demanding this. And, [00:28:00] um, the schools need to be giving that support, but that's certainly what I've observed, um, in the, you know, over the years that they're still probably not very safe. Some are obviously, there are. There are some that are really great, but not many of them not. So, um, I guess there's still more to be done. And these sorts of, um, reading these experiences, I think will help, because people will actually be able to understand what it's like. These are [00:28:30] this is beautifully written. It's very easy to read. It's very compelling, and it's, you know, it wasn't a hard read. Oh my God, I got to read that again. You just wanted to finish off the stories. They're great stories. So, um, congratulations, mark on that and to all of you who are in the book. Um, and I hope that this helps so that the next generation of kids actually can have a that a lot easier, because this is not what they should be worrying about. Well, being a going through your childhood and puberty [00:29:00] is difficult enough as it is. You shouldn't have to worry about this sort of thing. So, um, congratulations to everybody. I'm glad this book's published, and I hope that a lot of people read it. Not just people in the gay community. It needs to be read by a lot of people who are just curious to know, Um, what other people are like and for us in New Zealand, Frankly, apart from covid, which is pretty awful, climate change is gonna be the big issue. We need [00:29:30] to be getting all those other issues out of the way. Because actually, this, you know, we shouldn't have these kind of personal issues for people anymore. So thank you for doing this. Um, and I, as I said, I hope you sell a lot. I hope you're gonna promote this with your staff. Everybody comes in the door, and we need some good, more good reviews, too. So I'm sure that Anna will be able to engineer that. So thank you, everybody for coming. Well done. All [00:30:00] of you are in it. And, um, more strength to you all. Thank you very much, Fran. Just before we finish. And, um, one more word of thanks to Gareth for recording this for for posterity. Um, but just before we finish, if there is anyone who is in the book who would like to say anything about their experience of having been part [00:30:30] of the project, this is a bit of an open mic for you to to come and say whatever you'd like to for a few minutes. Yeah. Good, everyone, uh, my name is Mike, and I'm in the book at some point. I can't remember what page. Um, well, he's a good boyfriend. Um, yeah. So, um, as was said, these interviews were about 10 years ago, and I'd sort of forgotten that they happened until got [00:31:00] a message, uh, a little bit ago, just being like, you know, the books coming out and My first thought was God, I hope I was honest. Um, and I was, which is really nice. Um, but I just really wanted to acknowledge all the work that went into it. And, um, thank Mark for all the work that was put in. It was really cool. It's such an honour to be a part of what I think is a really, really important book. Um, And I also just want to acknowledge, obviously, um because this book [00:31:30] is all about gay men, and I just think it's important to also acknowledge women and trans people and non-binary people who also did a lot of for the queer community. So I just wanted to acknowledge that and thank Mark so th thanks, Mike. Anyone else? I'm not looking at anyone. I'm looking around at the ceiling, Neil. [00:32:00] Cheers killed everyone. I'm another one of Mark's boys. I'm more of a man now, I guess, um, yeah, I did, um, just want to take the opportunity to talk a little bit more about what it was like to be a part of the project and part of, um, contributing to what is really an incredible volume. Um, at the time. I had no idea there'd be so many. So many people [00:32:30] are going through this experience. So many people sharing their stories, uh, to create this text, which I think really is incredibly historic. Um, and really will be looked back in as such a a sort of, um, turning point. Um, in our history from 1986 where things were illegal to this first generation of people who got to stand on the shoulders of giants and and live our lives. Um, free from not quite all discrimination. Um, as mentioned, um, [00:33:00] but free from at least, uh, that legal discrimination, Um, So we could be ourselves. Uh, Mark, it was an absolute pleasure to be part of the project. Um, I don't know if you've ever been a formal counsellor in your life. Uh, but it was definitely a cathartic experience to share my story with you. I think in the end, we had two sessions. Um, just because the conversation was so good and we ended up covering all kinds of topics from literally the meaning of life through [00:33:30] to actual historical details. Um, along the way. Um, and the photography part was also quite interesting. Um, I think for most of us, it'll probably be the one. And only time we get to be part of a photo shoot like that, um, and be part of a photo spread like these, But I think when you're looking at the photos, you can see how Mark has captured people in their environments and captured, um, some of that vulnerability, Uh, but also the strength and fierceness as well, uh, behind [00:34:00] that, and you can see the real combination of the two. Um, And it was particularly an interesting experience, of course, because it was full manual photography. So he had his old school box camera out and checking the lights and getting the lighting just right. The sun was going down, and it was it was quite a a pleasure to to be part of that sort of experience. So, uh, yeah, so I think we should raise a virtual glass to mark in this project and just congratulate him once again on what an epic thing it is. So to mark. [00:34:30] Thank you. Thank you, Neil. For those those very kind words. Anyone else? Thank you. Yeah. To everyone. Um, so, yeah, like I like I said to Fran just now it's 10 years. Um, it was very not jarring in a negative sense, but just, you know, rereading the things that I said that and, like Mike had said [00:35:00] had just vanished from my brain completely. Uh, yeah. It was an interesting experience to see who who that person was and what they sound like. This is how how how I sort of sound and feel about myself now, but, uh uh, yeah, yeah, it was fantastic to see it come to fruition and just to sort of think Oh, OK, I I was that person. That's all true. But how? How would I say all of this now? How would I think about this now? And there's just so much more added on top of that, more relationships [00:35:30] and more self realisations and things. Um but yeah, it's it's a beautiful project, and it's, uh it was wonderful to read the stories of other people as well. Uh, as an aside, one of the the boys who lives in Auckland, uh, him and I have actually flirted a bit, and I didn't realise he was a part of the project until I saw his face in there, which was very interesting to turn the page like Oh, OK, there you are. But, uh uh, yeah, and and thank [00:36:00] you again to Mike for for pointing out that, um you know, we we we also need to see this kind of project for for everyone across our queer community and to record everyone's experiences. And And I hope we see those projects and get to to read about the rich lives of lesbians and trans people and everyone. Um, yeah, and And Fran, you brought up my quote, um, which, you know, unfortunately, I don't know how much further it's come along. Uh, probably some, but, you [00:36:30] know, I was I was talking, uh, as as someone who grew up in New Plymouth. Right? And I'm sure there are the stereotypes of New Plymouth that that a lot of you have, which, you know, stereotypes exist for a reason and wasn't wasn't quite a horrific place to grow up, but definitely, uh, I didn't see myself reflected anywhere, except maybe in some negative lights, and and I it would be interesting to go back to my my school now and sort of ask what they're doing, what they've thought about. I suspect [00:37:00] the answer is sweet. If, um but, you know, to be honest, this is kind of prompting me to maybe actually go do that myself and and find out that. Yeah, I. I really hope that, uh, sometime soon we see we see a lot more of those que trade alliances and the like at our schools and and that the kids don't feel that way because, uh, yeah, I've I've I've seen seen online a lot of people talking about having their almost second puberty, [00:37:30] you know, after they've come out and realising, Oh, there's so much I didn't do, um, so much. I never learned about myself when everyone else was, uh during those sort of 5 to 8 years the intermediate high school. And, you know, I'm coming on 31 now paying a mortgage, all these things. And yet I'm still sort of realising things about myself or or having experiences that might have happened so much further in the past. So yeah, it's [00:38:00] it's it's very interesting to see this come out, um, and and, you know, reading my own words and reflecting on on who that person was, but yeah, once again, Mark, just well done. It's an incredible project. You've done so much hard work. And you know, you've acknowledged all those people around you, which is brilliant, but this happened because you had a vision, and you just went through it. And, you know, 10 years of your life devoted to something like this is really beautiful. So well done to you, and [00:38:30] great to see some of these other guys here. And thank you so much, everyone. Tha thanks very much, Gere, for your for your your kind words. You know anyone else you'd like to speak? Yes. Yes. My sense is that, um and and I appreciate and the timing of when you did the book, but [00:39:00] two comments, I suppose. I think there is hope out there. You know, I, I have a lot of, um uh, friends who, uh, have grown up since law reform. Who for whom, Perhaps don't understand or don't know, some of the history, um, and for which being out and or gay and out, you know, is is is normal and accepted, and and they're quite comfortable with that. My question is, in a fucking, um, take the in terms [00:39:30] of of standing on the shoulders of giants. Do you get the sense that we've forgotten some of the struggles that Fran Fran talked about in terms of of getting law reform, getting marriage equality? Do you think we've forgotten some of those struggles? And so the people that are growing up now since that time have forgotten that. And perhaps we are, um we're not giving it the credence. We're not giving it the respect that it deserves. And therefore [00:40:00] we're losing some of that, that of what people like you know, and that have been through, I think we've forgotten some of that. I think one of the things that, uh, well, my partner Ross often says is that in the queer community and as gay men, we're often we're not actually brought up by our our elders. So we in many cases we grow up not hearing the [00:40:30] stories of those who've come in generations before us, and that probably goes for our society as a whole. Our society is very age stratified and so, but particularly for queer people, we don't grow up with the stories of our grandfathers and our grandmothers and our fathers and our mothers being passed on to us. So it is easy not to be aware of of the history, and many people in the book had read about it or were interested in [00:41:00] it or had heard about it or had talked to people. But as I said, there were also some in the in the book who hadn't been aware of of what had gone before. And I guess part of what I'm I'm doing and and and and putting this putting this out is actually wanting to commemorate the history, wanting to to document the history. And that's in part why I put so much time and into into the introduction into setting these stories in a historical context or in the context [00:41:30] of the the histories or the stories of what it has been like to be a queer man in this in this country. So I think your point is valid, and I think it is very important to keep on remembering those stories. Well, thank you very much to everyone for being here tonight. I'll hand back over to Marion in a second, but it's been lovely to see you all and lovely to know that everyone's here, despite the various, [00:42:00] uh, postponements and reschedulings and cancellations and covid restrictions that we've had to live with. So thank you very much to everyone. Thank you so much. Um, Mark and and Fran an enormous thanks to all you people that came tonight. Um, I'd forgotten about covid. It was just like we were somewhere else. We were so many different places, weren't we? [00:42:30] Yeah. Um, but anyway, great to have everyone here in the same room celebrating It's a remarkable book. Um, yeah. So well done, all of you, all the people on it and everyone that worked on it and everyone who's come to celebrate it, it's very important. But anyway, have a great rest of the night. Um, and if you care to, we have books for sale. Um, and Mark will, uh, sign for you if you'd like that as well. Um, but otherwise, just enjoy [00:43:00] yourselves for the rest of the night, and we'll see you soon. You're welcome.
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