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Through the 19 seventies, there were various attempts and discussions, but nothing really happened. There were a few campaigns, but they were based on, um, unequal ages of consent and things of that kind. And then finally, um, discussions were held in 1984 with Fran Wilde, who was new to Parliament, uh, the member for Wellington Central. And then in 1985 the bill was introduced. We believed that it would be a short, sharp parliamentary campaign, but very rapidly. Opposition was mobilised, [00:00:30] and it became clear that it was going to be a very broad public campaign. And a number of organisations, both for and against the bill, uh, were formed, and it became a great battleground for some of which we'll discuss in more detail. Lesbians were very involved, um, in this campaign. And, uh, that, of course, is because when any Well, although lesbians were not lesbian sex wasn't criminal in this country. Um, when any kind of homosexuality is illegal, then every homosexual, [00:01:00] male or female is seen as criminal. Um, the interesting thing about this bill is that, uh, alliances, strong alliances were formed. And those are for those of you who are not from New Zealand. In 1981 the Springbok tour saw the country divide on the issue of whether or not South African apartheid. Um, South Africa should come here and play rugby, the country divided. And, uh, it's interesting [00:01:30] that the same division became apparent during the campaign for homosexual law reform. And really, it was the division between the old New Zealand of Rob Muldoon and the Conservatives and the New New Zealand finally to be represented by Helen Clark and very progressive ideas. Um, personally, I think what I'd like to say is that for me, I always wanted to be involved in that campaign I was very aware of when I came out in the late 19 fifties and through the 19 sixties of uh [00:02:00] and at that point we had very mixed communities of lesbians and gay men. We called ourselves camps at that time, Um, and it was very clear that we were all outcast together and that we would either move forward together and progress would happen, or it wouldn't. I would also just like to finally say that part of our public campaign were actions that we undertook for visibility to improve the morale of our communities so that people were becoming very despondent because a lot of the things that were happening and we used a lot of humour, [00:02:30] uh, to try to improve people's spirits and create a sense of community. So in that sense, there were a lot of different things going on. And finally, we achieved success in 1986 with the passage of the bill. Very good. And, uh, greetings to all the Irish here tonight. Um, if you're not Irish, you want to be, um Look, I, [00:03:00] um first of all, I'm sitting on a hard chair because I've got a bad back and I'll cripple these days. I can sit on these. Um, I just want to probably useful to say why did I get involved? Well, I was elected to Parliament in 1981 for Wellington Central. And just before that election, an emissary from the gay community came to see me and said, Would you vote for homosexual law reform? And I said, Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. Young, urban liberal. Why wouldn't I? Next question was a bit nastier. Well, would you sponsor [00:03:30] a bill if nobody else would. And I thought, Oh, I suppose so. I innocently said, um, and thereafter my life was changed forever. Um, nobody else would. And And the first the bill that I looked at first was the equality Bill, which may or may not be discussed tonight, but for various reasons, it didn't proceed. And I've got some lovely memories of what some of my caucus colleagues said about it. Um, And then after the 84 election, [00:04:00] uh, we, um, drafted and I introduced the homosexual law reform bill. Um, there's only one thing I want to say. And that is people often say, What was the single biggest thing in in actually getting it through? Well, when I knew that when it was the day it was introduced, there were no the numbers weren't there for it to be passed. People were just being sporting. And, you know, gentlemen's agreement vote for the first reading, and so MP S needed permission to vote for [00:04:30] it. And that meant they had to feel comfortable in their electorate. And that meant we needed a public education. It was actually an information campaign. And the single biggest thing I think, in changing people's mind was visibility of the gay community and all of the people that came out during the campaign, which was a really brave thing to do, especially for the for the guys, because that was illegal and just hundreds of people all over the country. And suddenly New Zealanders started seeing [00:05:00] that, uh, this wasn't going to be the end of Western civilization, although some might have said that was a good idea in other respects. But, um actually oh, my gosh, people I work with or people in my family, actually, and and it was kind of a revelation for people to see, uh, that gay people and lesbians, although they kind of might have thought they were more familiar with the lesbian community because at least it wasn't a criminal element, but that these people were [00:05:30] just like everyone else. And I think that was the key kind of thing that that that happened, that allowed New Zealanders who were full of preconceptions and prejudices to say, Oh yeah, OK, and then seeing what the other side was saying, kind of, Uh uh, we can't have people, ordinary New Zealanders demonised. So that was probably the key thing. Well, well, [00:06:00] I, I guess that the the thing which looking back on it is most impressive to me is how different life is for gay men now than it was then. It it it was it was very difficult to be publicly gay and do a real job back then and and And that that changed. That changed very, very rapidly. And [00:06:30] so you had as one of the perhaps most significant immediate results of homosexual law reform this rapid rise of a of a professional gay cast in the public service and all sorts of other parts of society, Uh, that that very open and and and very assertive. Um, and I think that a lot of people who are not part of that have also benefited [00:07:00] from a, um a much A much easier, um, a much lower level of of prejudice. Which isn't to say that, uh, there isn't enormous prejudice in not public prejudice. It's interesting. We've learned that it's not proper to be homophobic, but there's a lot of homophobia in families and, of [00:07:30] course, among teenagers. Uh, and, uh, the worst place to be gay in New Zealand now is in high schools. Uh, and, uh, we have a responsibility to to to do something about that. What was important was not really the law change. I know the law change was absolutely crucial because it was symbolic of the other changes. But it was the fight [00:08:00] around the law change, uh, and the and the and the massive public education campaign. And I think that's what marks the New Zealand experience off as different from experiences of other countries. This 16 month public campaign, where we were the news every night, it [00:08:30] was exhausting. It really was for all of us. But for, like, every lesbian and gay person in the country, I think was exhausted. And and that wasn't without its costs. You know, we knew as this was happening, that in a way, the campaign that we were leading was leading to suicides. Uh, and somehow [00:09:00] there was nothing to be done or very little. I mean, we did you do what you can in these things, but it it it was, Was it it it It was a a nasty calculation that we kind of didn't. We were trapped that the suicides were gonna go on and on and on. No, this is only and that they are only emblematic, emblematic of of of other kinds of felt, hurt and oppression. You know, there, there, there's lots of other things. [00:09:30] So you know that that's that's the broad setting for me. Um, and it was a matter of building the biggest possible alliance. It was important that the Labour Party become on side. It was important to get trade unions which are not naturally, uh, the most friendly to at that stage. [00:10:00] Uh, and that was partly work that was done then. And I I saw the a crucial layer of it is Labour Party women. I I My My calculation was that the most important strategic ally was Labour Party women. The the The other thing, of course, is that, um even though it was was hard work, [00:10:30] there was some really good fun. And, um, there's lots of stories of wonderful kind of things which happened, and crazy confrontations with Norman Jones or some of the other opponents. Um, that, um yeah, I suppose they'll be recorded some time, but, um, just amusing stuff I would just add to add to that that part of the reason for some of [00:11:00] the suicides was because one of the tactics of the anti was, uh, the construction of this petition against the bill, which was very nastily, uh, praised. And, uh, it was taken by the Salvation Army. I've never forgiven them nor given them a ever since. I think that action was completely unforgivable for a church. They took the petition door to door throughout the country, and they had stands in the street, and so did various other so-called religious bodies. [00:11:30] Now, as a consequence, and and the petition was taken into workplaces, it was taken into old age homes. It was taken into schools, and the reason for many of those suicides was that people in some small towns the petition would come in. And if you're not, if you don't sign it against the bill, you might be queer. So people would sign, gave me a lesbian to sign, and they'd go home and just go through an utter crisis. And that caused a lot of suicides. And we knew [00:12:00] that. And that's one of the reasons for trying to do the public campaign in a way that was good humoured so that we didn't precipitate violence. So the street marches we had. We had balloons and people singing, and a lot of other people joined in on such a march because it's almost like a parade. But there were placards and there were serious messages. And when we had, uh, one of my favourite actions was when we what what the anti were doing the so called Coalition for Concerned Citizens. That's the sort of [00:12:30] name these American inspired fundamentalists, because the money came from America. Yeah, the money came from America and they funded, uh, this campaign here, and this was their first attempt to do that. And subsequently they went on and did it in the islands successfully. And they have done it very successfully in Uganda. That is why that stuff is happening. They went on and did it elsewhere. They tried to do it here and lost. We didn't really think about the fact that they were going to do it elsewhere. Or maybe we could have. We should have. We [00:13:00] were too exhausted to get into an international kind of thing, but that's what they did. And there's people analysing that now through the that that's where they did it and they were successful there and those poor people. It's terrible, But one of the things they hired things like the town Hall and held these huge meetings. So we went and broke up. The meeting infiltrated the meeting and we did it with, um, we had a whole lot of funny songs. We sang and we had signs like you'd have on a television programme that said Laugh. So people became hysterical. [00:13:30] Mostly, the audiences were stacked. Actually, people became hysterical, so people like more of us than them usually. So Norm Jones was trying to stand on the platform and say, Get back to your and the whole place is in an uproar of laughter and that was good. That worked well for us. There was another time when we we bought the meeting because we were heckling and so on. And this Norm Jones said something like, You know, we paid for this. If you want to speak [00:14:00] as much as this, you've got to pay $300 or 500. No, it was only $100. I think it was a small amount, actually, and I said I, I just put done And there was What if you're gonna pay, you got to pay right now and said, Oh, yeah. People give us the money and collected the money immediately in front of her by this scene of of, of collecting money and presented the money and took over the meeting. Um, and you know, those weird situations that happen. But [00:14:30] Norman Jones, who was the leader really of, of, of of in parliament. Uh uh, He he he didn't. He refused to debate me. He wasn't. He he he didn't want He didn't want to get too close to your bill in case it was catching. Well, no. Eventually, he agreed There was this Australian, um the Willacy programme decided that they they they would they they and he he agreed that as [00:15:00] long on the conditions never showed in New Zealand, they arranged this debate. And so I as he came in, I put my hand out and you saw him go to be polite and then realise that he shouldn't. And it was at that point that II I talked about how he was more obsessed about sodomy than anyone else I had ever met. Well, he called himself the mouth from the south. He was family background was, but particularly at that time, [00:15:30] it didn't really seem relevant. He was just the most appallingly atrocious man. Um, and Bill's right, that obsessed with sodomy and that Oh, terrible. With about women, anything at all. Yeah, it was a terrible man in a whole lot of ways. Yeah, it wasn't just this, but yeah, this was just a lightning rod, actually, in some ways for him. But, um, some of he and some of the others in parliament and also obviously in the select committee, which went on for a while [00:16:00] with the petition as well just came along and rehearsed all these terrible practises that they said, you know, gay men got up to and if they're thinking so are these guys getting off on this or what? It was kind of irrelevant. And this went on day after day, night after night. And it was pretty awful, actually. And how their minds were thinking that was all they could think about. It wasn't, wasn't It was. [00:16:30] They were pretty weird people, actually. And of course, later on, we saw what you know. The Christian fundamentalist representative and Well, not very much later. Graham, capable, of course, ended up in jail, which was a good thing. Um, Norm had a brain tumour and died. Um, So, um, you know, these were terrible people and the Salvation Army were in donkey deep. Um, like many people, I have never supported them since I wouldn't give them a scent. Um, nothing, I'm afraid. Even though some of them now are pretty [00:17:00] good people. Uh, sorry. There's plenty of other good charities to To to support. You don't have to support them. Um, but we had it was the religious element was interesting because there was a huge divide in the more traditional churches. Like, you know, the Presbyterians and the Catholic Church and others. There were groups on one side or the other, and it caused ferocious debates, Um, through the whole kind of religious community, um, which actually haven't totally gone away. [00:17:30] And some of them they're still debating whether they should have gay bishops or priests or whatever. Yeah, women women are. I mean, the whole thing is still there. Yeah, we were We were so innocent. We we were We were caught on the hop. I mean, it and we didn't have very strong organisation. We we had the gay task force which wasn't well organised. Um, we [00:18:00] lesbians were more concerned as to whether there'd be this kind of opposition because in 1984 at the women's forums which the Labour Government had set up when it came into into office, Um and these were forums held throughout the country to discuss the formation of the Ministry of Women's Affairs and various issues pertinent to women, and these were held right throughout the country. And lesbians, of course, had attended these forums. And to our shock and horror, they there were all these women clutching Bibles, wearing hats [00:18:30] and scarves and scarves, and and one of them, for example, they went to the lesbian, uh, forum. There was a lesbian forum and a lot of lesbians hadn't gone to it because it was up against the domestic violence forum. And, you know, lesbians were all involved with refuge and different things. And these women took over the lesbian forum and passed a motion that lesbianism was was an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. I have to say that the government didn't take much notice of [00:19:00] this was this was at the Palmerston. This was at the Palmerston Forum, so lesbians had to quickly hold another forum in the afternoon to kind of revoke this. So because we sort of had the experience of that I remember raising that with the task force before the bill was introduced and saying, you know, do you think maybe something's going on and these people might, you know, do something about this and the people said, Oh, no, you know, they'd only be interested in, you know, being anti abortion and things like that. Well, they were out in force, but we hadn't really strategized, so we had to do it very quickly, and we were kind of having to invent things [00:19:30] on the on the go as we saw them doing pretty well on the go and we did at the beginning. Um, I was keen not to have a big campaign before it was Bill was introduced because I knew that we didn't have the numbers in Parliament at that stage and and I knew that there was this kind of gentleman's agreement tradition that every bill gets a first reading, and if they thought about it too far in advance, and there'd been any publicity, we might not have even got it introduced. They would have voted it out then. So it was We just [00:20:00] completely it got on the order paper and and off it went. Um, but then, of course, just holy hell broke out and literally Holy hell. And, um, there was huge organisation very fast, actually. The the gay task force in Wellington, Auckland and then in other parts of the country got mobilised, um, out of the coalition for the Yeah, there were. There were a number of different strands and people had different. I mean, there were We [00:20:30] wanted it to be as broad as possible so that anybody who wherever they were or whoever they were, could actually join in something. So things like hug were formed. Um, deliberately actually by, um Well, a couple of people and, um and to say, OK, there's another stream of people there. There were groups formed within churches and within this and that and the other, um, and forming groups. [00:21:00] We had to we had to have platforms for people to join and show their support. We had we had to have groups and because otherwise you just have individuals. So some of those groups weren't a lot of people, but then they would kind of snowball. The other difficulty was, it's pre Internet, you know, Uh, it's pretty cheap phone. Everything was done by snail mail, too. So we were trying to raise money to make phone calls between the cities to try to get, you know, some kind of coordination. But one of the things that I must say here [00:21:30] is that we had fantastic, superb help right from the beginning from the, um yes, we did. Yeah. And they we contacted the immediately that that that point they were the IG a the International Gay Association, the International Lesbian Gay Association. We had a New Zealand representative, Sylvia Bore, who was in Amsterdam. She said, You're in serious trouble. I will set everything in motion. And she did, and we ended up with some very, very I. I went to a conference conference in Canada, got some very good connections, and we ended up in a situation [00:22:00] where we could phone uh, we'd say, Look, this man's, we'd phone New York and say, this man's turned up um, you know, who's he? And they'd say, Oh, this is so And so He works for the Archdiocese of New York, so we could rush notes into Parliament to France. And who could say, Oh, yes. Well, that's who this is. And and they thought we had this huge organisation, But really, we did it with no money at all, right? I mean, we did it. You know, we got some rich gay men gave us bits of money, but it was It was it was [00:22:30] a minor amount of money compared to ads in the paper, too. I mean, it was it was, actually, it grew very fast into a huge, comprehensive national campaign. And in my office, I was really lucky because I was actually one of the party whips and that that was really handy for another reason. Because it gave me access to who was on in the house that night and who wasn't. And this used to come in every Wednesday, which was the day they did private members bills. And I knew who was the way and who wasn't. And we did a lot of trading, and we'd send people after [00:23:00] some MP S and say they have to come back in, or I mean, we did a lot of work on making sure we always had the numbers, and we nearly lost it a couple of times. Um, so that was helpful, but the whips office became a kind of a headquarters. Uh, and the parliamentary mail system. God bless it. Um, you know, I just because I was an MP, I could write all this stuff and send it out. And it was a bill that was going through Parliament. It was perfectly legitimate to do that. But we did. I mean, there were downsides, too, because [00:23:30] the nutters and the fundamentalists were very threatening. So we got lots of death threats and stuff. And so my poor little young lads, who was the male out now got trained in how to detect letter bombs and stuff like that. And I mean, it was pretty horrible. Um, but it was massive. And every every Wednesday when the bill was being debated, the office would just be full of the people who were helping. And there were lots of we did have huge information needs. So we could say What [00:24:00] what's this What's that? And Phil was really great because he worked in the library and he'd get his data and and we'd use it. And also when we had the big public rallies, depending on if the if we were sharing a platform, If it was, you know, both sides, then we kind of knew what they were going to say. So we had our, um, argument. So I became very familiar with the old and the New Testament and stuff like that. Yes, that was a big part [00:24:30] on both sides. The anti said, Look, if we if we decriminalise, it'll just be rampant. Everybody will be dying of age. It will be the biggest epidemic of anything. And we said, actually, if we don't decriminalise, people will die because they won't go for medical help and we can't educate. And I mean, in the end, I mean, it's pretty clear to me that I mean, we were told you're mad to try to to to have homosexual [00:25:00] law reform in AIDS hysteria, but it won it. It it it actually, it actually I think was one of the main things to turn public opinion our way and that just in terms of chronology. For those of you who are visitors. I wrote it down because I can't even remember dates. March 85 It was introduced that wonderful vote 51 24 and the silly, silly things didn't know what they were doing. Thank God. Um, petition [00:25:30] launched by four famous members of Parliament, Bray, Brook Lee Jones and War Bank, and then taken over by the Salvation Army. And some gentlemen called Keith Hay and Peter Tate. You remember them? And then, um, that then we had more than 2000 submissions to the actual bill. Um, And then they heard that in the petition in the select committee, Um, the petition was presented Sorry in in September. Um, and [00:26:00] the bill? Yeah, Bill was reported back in October with no recommendation from the select committee. I mean, they clearly weren't ever going to make a recommendation because it was split and they were too scared to recommend. And we had then the second reading and all the way through, they tried to filibuster and stop it being voted on or get it thrown out. So there was always these points of order. It was just nerve wracking. I had to be there the whole time managing the numbers in the house. And then we had the committee stages which dragged [00:26:30] on for a few months. And we lost part two in the committee stages, which was the, um, Human Rights Amendment. And that was a complete insurance policy by MP saying, Well, we we have to vote for decriminalisation, but we kind of have a dollar each way. And we won't vote for the human rights part, which, of course subsequently did get passed some years later. And then it was, um, passed in July 86th and some MP S stood in the back of the lobby to see whether we had [00:27:00] the numbers. And when they saw we had the numbers, they voted against it. I know who they are. They will be named. What was that? Oh, yeah, And that was the really interesting thing. And do you know how we achieved it? Because in the committee stages the opposition the the MP S, voting against it thought [00:27:30] that if it was 16, nobody in their right mind would vote for this bill and they actually voted for 16 because they thought that was so radical that it wouldn't get through any further readings. So I mean, quite honestly, you know, that was the miracle of the whole thing. Yeah, during the process, obviously there was no willingness to compromise over the 18 and 16 of the community. That's exactly they say. Yeah, but [00:28:00] obviously we will accept civil union and things that are willing to compromise on what we really want. In my view, the compromise on marriage was a stupid mistake that we had to go along with once it had got to a certain stage, because the right wing was so mobilised against it that you had to You had to be beat the right wing, but we should never [00:28:30] have fought for, um, a civil Union I. I believe it was, and I said so quite publicly. We had church out the latest manifestation of fundamentalism in New Zealand, and it was. It's organised by a guy, a guy called Brian Tamaki, who's Maori and who now styles himself as Bishop Tamaki. Probably Pope Tamaki shortly, Um, and it's a classic fundamentalist religion, people paying a lot of money, you know, in the churches, [00:29:00] and it is very attractive to Maori people. There's a lot of young Maori in it. And then they marched against the civil Union bill. It was scary stuff because it was young Maori guys wearing black shirts in the streets, and that was another big mistake on their part, Actually. Thank goodness, um, but scary stuff that there's this whole new generation of kids now being sucked into religious fundamentalism for Well, let's you [00:29:30] so I mean, you know, we know why people go for that sort of thing. Um, but and that's why I mean, I wasn't part of that debate, but I can understand why the community said in the end, Well, we've got to win this one, even if it's not. But you know what we want. Um, because of that one again, it would have been a push back of a whole lot of things. So, uh, not much. He was anti. [00:30:00] He was always anti funnily enough. Yeah, um, but he wasn't one of the kind of leading organisers of the thing. Um, he was pretty vicious as he can be. Um and, um, but I, I don't recall him being one of the leading lights. No, no, my my best comeback on him was later on in Parliament. They used to have an annual parliamentary debate, a fun debate between the press gallery and the MP S. And everyone [00:30:30] used to have to dress up if you're in the debating team. And I was in it one year and he was in it and we had this somebody just the day of the debate brings in this huge pile of dress up clothes. And I said, Look at this. And it was a fairy outfit and we got John into the fairy outfit and and there was a pair of wings and I pulled off one of them and I left the right wing up. And I said, Look, John, you're a right wing fairy and and I don't think he even knew what I said. I know, but some of you will appreciate [00:31:00] why that was more appropriate for him. Yes, he did. I have a photo of John as a right wing fairy which has been published subsequently. It's been used in the people who were really against it home. It was sport. Yes, I think you're right. Yeah, [00:31:30] you know, kind of obsessive. Yeah, I think that's a good characterization of it, Actually, yeah. Yeah. It was totally unthinking and uncaring. Yeah, Yes, they were. That's what they were worried about their vote. And so we did a lot of work in those electorates with churches with [00:32:00] local politicians. And we went, Yeah, we leaflet it, and we did a whole lot of stuff. And interestingly, there was a by-election while all this was on down in Timaru. Remember that? And I, I was forbidden to show my face there by the party hierarchy. Who thought this was this is in the South Island for the visitors just south of Christchurch, Rural, very conservative. And, um, they said, Oh, God, we can't have any talk about homosexual law reform. And our candidate was quite [00:32:30] liberal. Um and they blamed our loss on that. It wasn't that at all. And I said to them later, if we'd been able to campaign on it as we had another electorate, we would gone in and actually talked the issue over. I think we would have actually turned the electorate, but they wouldn't even let me go near the electorate because they were so worried that I would lose votes for them. Yeah. Gotten the numbers. I knew somebody asked 49. 44. Thank you. [00:33:00] I always get the numbers wrong for the different readings. Yeah. Yeah, It was close. Yeah, we were lobbying right till the end. We were Yeah, they did. Yeah, they knew or they didn't vote. Not everyone voted, and some people were deliberately away. Some people never voted in any way. And I spent hours talking to those MP S saying, Well, you know why? And some of them would say, Oh, well, if the age of consent were just 18, I'd be [00:33:30] all right. Yeah, all right. If it had been 18, they would have said 20. I mean, a couple of homosexual conservative members of Parliament who voted against the bill. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And we knew everybody. We we actually had quite significant data on all of the MP who are opposing it, which is really helpful. And we got people invited out for [00:34:00] dinner on the nights the votes were on or invited to speak at things all over the country we had, you know, we knew every Wednesday we had to get certain people out of the house and we would have miles ahead. We had invitations in Auckland or Invercargill to to speak that night so they could never get back to Wellington if there was a significant vote. And so there was all highly organised. In that sense. Yeah, we were We learned very quickly what we had to do. [00:34:30] Do you think there's any danger or Oh, my God. II. I think there's always a danger in every society of things going backward. Um, as an historian, I'm very interested in the fact that, um, you had in the Weimar Republic, you know, one of the one of the most liberal, uh, climates for both gay men and lesbians that we still have not seen a society [00:35:00] as liberal as Germany was, uh, in that in that period. I mean, you had a you had a You had the Humanitarian Scientific committee founded in the in the 18 nineties. Uh, you had, uh, the World League for Sexual Reform. You had conferences held every year. You had dozens and dozens of, uh, magazines and newsletters and clubs. Um, And yet when the Nazis came to power in 1923 it was gone. Uh, and one [00:35:30] of the things that last year I went to, um, the Holocaust commemoration at Parliament organised by the Jewish community and one of the things that, um, one of the people said, uh, I found very important, Which was that given how liberal and accepting of the Jews in their Jewish communities, Germany was, the fact that it could happen in Germany meant it could happen anywhere. [00:36:00] And I think that's a message for us as well. You know, I think that you you, you know, the the the price of democracy and the price of progress is eternal vigilance. You know, if you don't keep up to it and you keep watchful, it'll go because those other people are always there, you know, they're like rust. They never go away. The interesting thing is that fundamentalism is growing more than any other religion. We know that New Zealand New [00:36:30] Zealanders don't have much religion, which I think is good. They're fairly secular, actually, which is good, but the one religion that's growing is fundamentalism. And, um so we haven't even got the against that the bull walk of the old established churches, because they just they're fading actually, um, people are losing interest and the fundamentals are much more aggressive, I think. I think that's something we need to be careful about in all walks of life. [00:37:00] Yeah. Please, That that was a possibility. That's really scary. Yeah, I don't think that I mean, it's unlikely that this this lot of politicians would want to want to, uh, preside over a roll back. But you know, politicians are very disposable commodities, and also [00:37:30] we've seen in times of a major disaster, what happens like Canterbury. Basically, the government's taken over, and that might be fine for the disaster relief and and and, you know, the reconstruction. But they had previously taken over the regional council down there. And, um, a lot of people now are saying quite well, people I would have thought better are saying, Actually, it's a lot easier without democracy, and that's the scariest thing I've heard from significant figures, [00:38:00] public figures saying that in Canterbury it's been easy without democracy. This was pre earthquake, and, um so we only need, you know, something bigger on a bigger scale, and suddenly there's an excuse for doing away with representative government, and then those people with the other agendas roll in on the back of that. Not necessarily in the front, but on the back of it. So, I mean, not only that kind of, um, disaster, like an earthquake, but a financial meltdown. Uh, and then you start getting [00:38:30] people wanting to scapegoat then the religious what the religious do at that point to say, God is punishing us because we tolerate homosexuals and we've allowed abortions and women are out of control. I wish, God damn it, you know, And they look for and they look for the A and some people believe that. But other people will look to strong government and those kinds of situations to get them out of once they haven't got a job and they can't pay their mortgage. And everything's awful. And there's a terrible [00:39:00] disaster. Those are the ingredients which allow these kind of people to come through like a AAA large increase in unemployment and some and some very publicly privileged gay men out there and how easy it would be to blame gay men for taking our jobs. One more. One more question. [00:39:30] Just one second. Ah! Oh, is that all? Oh, thank you for coming. Thank you for coming.
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